Ben Johnson?? Ben Johnson?? LOL

[Alphadawg7]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea the single most important ability a head coach needs is leadership. It matters more than Xs and Os. 

 

I think his media management is a red flag. But I haven't read / heard the locker room  stuff. If that is bad too I think his chabces of being a success reduce significantly. No matter how good of a play caller her is.

 

It is too early to say of course. And I think Poles and Caleb are partly responsible for the slow start in different ways. But as I said yesterday holding the team together if this season goes sideways will be a significant test for him. 

 

Yeah and I don't honestly understand how Poles has kept his job personally.  Ben got too much credit for Goff IMHO - he was a #1 overall pick who had been to a SB who regressed behind a train wreck of an OL in LA before being traded and wasn't that great in Detroit until their OL got better too.  His rebound wasn't exactly the miracle Ben gets credit for, Goff is very much the same QB he has always been, a guy when protected can play at a high level.  

 

Now he has a QB who really does need to not only be developed, but needs to be "reached" because Caleb will not succeed or reach his potential based on the reported issues, work ethics, arrogance, mental lapses, etc that seem to be present based on reports and on field play.  He has a QB who hasn't proven he can play at a high level yet in the NFL and still needs to learn how to be a pro and reach that potential.  Goff already had all that, his success there was more about having the right talent around him then anything Goff needed to learn about being a pro.  

[corta765]

I reallllyy wish people took the time to actual research things out. When the Lions got Goff he was a cast off and the trade was considered more for the picks media wise for the Lions then Goff himself. The Lions first half of the time with Goff/Ben were trash on offense, but the back half of 2021 they found their form which built into 2022 and continued big time into 23/24. To act like Johnson had nothing to do with it when literally there are legions of articles that said Goff was toast etc.. is hilarious and also reeks of today's what have you done for me now culture.

 

Now will it work for the Bears? The hell that I know because the franchise looks cursed as hell... but I will allow a full season to happen and look at the whole picture before tossing the baby out of the bath water. Caleb has not looked great and the articles about him over summer do not paint a great picture, but if they start winning in the back half and he improves it all doesn't matter. Watching the Cowboys Netflix it was pretty hysterical how year 1 with Jimmy Johnson they went on thinking they were gonna take the world by the horns only to get run over. The NFL takes time (unless you play in the AFC South then who the hell knows) to build a true program up. Last week the Lions sucked and were falling apart now this week their back to being great. It is said the first half of an NFL season is fools gold in general with some teams so now is not the best time for strong takes. 

[Alphadawg7]

18 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I dont think they were as different as you're making them out to be, considering the below.

 

 

People seem to be forgetting that the Bears are the Bears, and have been really Bearing it up the last 3-5 years especially.

 

It was always a 50/50 shot with Johnson on his own. We'll see.

 

I am not saying I disagree with you as I was never sold on Caleb and think Poles needed to go too.  But, the roster Ben inherited has more talent on it, I mean the offensive talent on the starting 11 is miles better than the 11 starters McD trotted out in 2017.  

 

And even though I never expected the Bears to really be that much better personally, the expectations for Ben was to contend for the playoffs at the minimum and the expectations for McD year 1 was to contend for the #1 overall pick in 2018 draft.  They have very very different expectations coming in from the public and masses for their first seasons as HC.   

 

Again, Ben inherits one of the best set of offensive weapons in the NFC where they are loaded at WR, TE, and have solid RB room with an ascending OL and a 2nd year QB who was just the #1 overall pick.  McD inherited an inept offense with no talent anywhere but an aging RB and a rookie LT in Deion no one knew was going to be as good as he later turned out to be and most people thought the Bills were tanking for a QB in 2018.  

[HappyDays]

8 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Now he has a QB who really does need to not only be developed, but needs to be "reached" because Caleb will not succeed or reach his potential based on the reported issues, work ethics, arrogance, mental lapses, etc that seem to be present based on reports and on field play.  He has a QB who hasn't proven he can play at a high level yet in the NFL and still needs to learn how to be a pro and reach that potential.

 

My unpopular opinion is that QBs make themselves. The coaching doesn't matter nearly as much to that outcome as people think. I'm not saying coaching doesn't affect how well the offense as a whole functions, just that great QBs will be great no matter what coach they get tethered to and ditto for bad QBs. Daboll was dubbed a QB whisperer because Allen became elite under his watch. Turns out he's closer to the guy that had 30th ranked offenses for the vast majority of his pre-Allen career.

 

Nobody should have expected Ben Johnson to show up and "fix" Caleb Williams. I'm sure some Bears fans are disappointed but that's only because they had an unrealistic expectation. I continue to believe they will move on from Caleb Williams next year unless he shows massive improvement over the course of the season. Johnson isn't going to risk his first head coaching shot on an underperforming QB that he isn't tied to. He'll get his handpicked QB next year and then we'll begin to really see if he can live up to the hype.

[Albany,n.y.]

28 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

My unpopular opinion is that QBs make themselves. The coaching doesn't matter nearly as much to that outcome as people think. I'm not saying coaching doesn't affect how well the offense as a whole functions, just that great QBs will be great no matter what coach they get tethered to and ditto for bad QBs. Daboll was dubbed a QB whisperer because Allen became elite under his watch. Turns out he's closer to the guy that had 30th ranked offenses for the vast majority of his pre-Allen career.

 

I've always believed that except in rare cases where a coach exposes his QB to a severe injury, a coach cannot "ruin" a QB as many here believe.  More likely is the QB ruins the coach with his bad play.  Most QB busts are the result of bad scouting, not bad coaching.  Anyone who thinks better coaching would have worked with JP Losman or EJ Manuel is excusing the people who scouted and drafted them. 

 

That said, there's a relatively new phenomenon that used to never happen: Early round draft choices who were basically on the scrap heap & considered busts are turning around their careers & becoming productive starters.  They'll never reach Mahomes/Allen status, but they do recover later in their careers.  The 1st was Geno Smith, followed by Baker Mayfield & Sam Darnold.  Ironically, each awakened on his 4th team.  So, while some would say they were ruined early on, none of these 3 QBs were permanently ruined.  At best you can say they were stymied by bad coaching, but ruined, no.  

[Mikie2times]

4 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

I've always believed that except in rare cases where a coach exposes his QB to a severe injury, a coach cannot "ruin" a QB as many here believe.  More likely is the QB ruins the coach with his bad play.  Most QB busts are the result of bad scouting, not bad coaching.  Anyone who thinks better coaching would have worked with JP Losman or EJ Manuel is excusing the people who scouted and drafted them. 

 

That said, there's a relatively new phenomenon that used to never happen: Early round draft choices who were basically on the scrap heap & considered busts are turning around their careers & becoming productive starters.  They'll never reach Mahomes/Allen status, but they do recover later in their careers.  The 1st was Geno Smith, followed by Baker Mayfield & Sam Darnold.  Ironically, each awakened on his 4th team.  So, while some would say they were ruined early on, none of these 3 QBs were permanently ruined.  At best you can say they were stymied by bad coaching, but ruined, no.  

This turnaround phenomenon is getting rather interesting, especially when you consider the parallels.

 

Geno Smith, Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold all started for franchises that are poorly ran. They all started year 1. Daniel Jones is likely going to be the next one on this list. Outside of the bad franchise part, perhaps an element exists just not being burdened by expectations. It has to be a bit much to be a 21 year old tasked with turning around a dysfunctional franchise. Most of which are still dysfunctional years later. To go into a situation largely free of expectations but with the experience of your past. It has to be a pretty damn good feeling for some of these guys.  

[Richard Noggin]

50 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

My unpopular opinion is that QBs make themselves. The coaching doesn't matter nearly as much to that outcome as people think. I'm not saying coaching doesn't affect how well the offense as a whole functions, just that great QBs will be great no matter what coach they get tethered to and ditto for bad QBs. Daboll was dubbed a QB whisperer because Allen became elite under his watch. Turns out he's closer to the guy that had 30th ranked offenses for the vast majority of his pre-Allen career.

 

Nobody should have expected Ben Johnson to show up and "fix" Caleb Williams. I'm sure some Bears fans are disappointed but that's only because they had an unrealistic expectation. I continue to believe they will move on from Caleb Williams next year unless he shows massive improvement over the course of the season. Johnson isn't going to risk his first head coaching shot on an underperforming QB that he isn't tied to. He'll get his handpicked QB next year and then we'll begin to really see if he can live up to the hype.

 

I don't entirely disagree with your "unpopular opinion." The coaching DEFINITELY matters a TON, as does surrounding talent, but I agree that a QB prospect's own drive and ability to process criticism and failure with humility, while also maintaining the confidence necessary to perform under duress, is/are the most essential component(s). It's a rare combination of factors that coalesce to allow a young QB to improve and excel in the NFL. 

 

Caleb Williams appears to have some REALLY bad tendencies to hold the ball and to throw from bad bases too often. His insane arm talent is probably holding him back, in that he can sometimes make the impressive, improvisational, off-platform throws, and that skill (along with his scrambling) has got him to this point in his career already. So he seems aloof or resistant to change. There is reporting to back up this perspective, if you find that reporting compelling. 

 

Very interested in where the Bears season goes from here. I have a lot of respect for Ben Johnson's acumen and aggression, and have at times wished for him to replace McD. Like a Dungy-to-Gruden type of transition. 

[Scott7975]

37 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

I've always believed that except in rare cases where a coach exposes his QB to a severe injury, a coach cannot "ruin" a QB as many here believe.  More likely is the QB ruins the coach with his bad play.  Most QB busts are the result of bad scouting, not bad coaching.  Anyone who thinks better coaching would have worked with JP Losman or EJ Manuel is excusing the people who scouted and drafted them. 

 

That said, there's a relatively new phenomenon that used to never happen: Early round draft choices who were basically on the scrap heap & considered busts are turning around their careers & becoming productive starters.  They'll never reach Mahomes/Allen status, but they do recover later in their careers.  The 1st was Geno Smith, followed by Baker Mayfield & Sam Darnold.  Ironically, each awakened on his 4th team.  So, while some would say they were ruined early on, none of these 3 QBs were permanently ruined.  At best you can say they were stymied by bad coaching, but ruined, no.  

 

I think Baker was always a gamer. The Browns looked for the shiny and went for Watson. Biggest mistake they could make. Baker had a shoulder injury the year that he looked bad. 

 

I'll throw Alex Smith in there as a guy that benefited from coaching IMO. He wasn't terrible but wasn't good until Harbaugh got there and made him better. Then Reid got him and made him even better. On the Harbaugh topic, I think thus far Herbert has looked a lot better and looks like he has some heart now. Thats coaching.

[Jauronimo]

On 9/15/2025 at 7:44 PM, H2o said:

The problem is Caleb Williams. I think if there is anyone who can turn Caleb into a serviceable, borderline good, starter it will be Ben Johnson. I just don't know if Caleb will ever be coachable enough, have the right attitude, or put in the work it takes to succeed in the NFL. Personally, I don't think Caleb makes it through his 1st contract in Chicago. 

Ty Dunne so take with as much salt as you see fit, but sounds like Caleb doesn't want to be coached.

 

https://www.golongtd.com/p/house-of-dysfunction-part-i-the-curious

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

My unpopular opinion is that QBs make themselves. The coaching doesn't matter nearly as much to that outcome as people think. I'm not saying coaching doesn't affect how well the offense as a whole functions, just that great QBs will be great no matter what coach they get tethered to and ditto for bad QBs. Daboll was dubbed a QB whisperer because Allen became elite under his watch. Turns out he's closer to the guy that had 30th ranked offenses for the vast majority of his pre-Allen career.

 

Nobody should have expected Ben Johnson to show up and "fix" Caleb Williams. I'm sure some Bears fans are disappointed but that's only because they had an unrealistic expectation. I continue to believe they will move on from Caleb Williams next year unless he shows massive improvement over the course of the season. Johnson isn't going to risk his first head coaching shot on an underperforming QB that he isn't tied to. He'll get his handpicked QB next year and then we'll begin to really see if he can live up to the hype.

I don’t disagree, it’s why I said Ben got too much credit and praise for “Goff” who only regressed in LA because their OL became a casualty of their spending and a trainwreck.  Once Detroit built up the line and talent around him, Goff became the more the guy he was when he led LA to their first SB appearance of McVays tenure. 
 

I was surprised Ben took the job without Poles being fired whose been an awful GM.  Nothing is worse for a HC than being saddled with a terrible FO, let alone a first time HC.  
 

Edited September 17 by Alphadawg7

[HappyDays]

59 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

The 1st was Geno Smith, followed by Baker Mayfield & Sam Darnold.

 

I think Mayfield is actually the perfect example of what I mean. He was not a bad QB in Cleveland, they just decided to move on because they have the worst owner in the NFL. And I think Mayfield himself would admit he wasn't really giving it his all early in his career. Not that he was especially lazy like say Jamarcus Russell was, but you didn't hear the stories of almost psychotic commitment to getting better like you heard with Allen or Mahomes or Brady.

 

Did spending a year on the Panthers scout team turn his career around? Did Matt Rhule change the way he approached the position? Of course not. What happened is he put his head down and re-dedicated himself to his craft, then when opportunity knocked on a potential game winning drive for the Rams he was ready and seized his moment. Next thing you know Liam Cohen is getting the credit for "fixing" Baker Mayfield and gets a head coaching opportunity because they think he can "fix" Trevor Lawrence. Well, early returns on that aren't looking so great. The QB is going to have to fix himself. Nobody can do it for him.

 

This conversation reminded me of a hilarious post I saw earlier:

 

 

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

This turnaround phenomenon is getting rather interesting, especially when you consider the parallels.

 

Geno Smith, Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold all started for franchises that are poorly ran. They all started year 1. Daniel Jones is likely going to be the next one on this list. Outside of the bad franchise part, perhaps an element exists just not being burdened by expectations. It has to be a bit much to be a 21 year old tasked with turning around a dysfunctional franchise. Most of which are still dysfunctional years later. To go into a situation largely free of expectations but with the experience of your past. It has to be a pretty damn good feeling for some of these guys.  

It's because where you land extremely matters 

 

To think it doesn't is fool's gold... These are 21 to 23-year-old kids... And 97% of them need to grow and learn

 

There's a reason why the bears haven't successfully developed a quarterback in 60 years lol never had a 4,000 yard thrower 

 

It is the organization

 

Same with darnold... Nobody question his talent or even his work ethic.. the Jets organization spits out quarterbacks for 50 years

Edited September 17 by Buffalo716

[syhuang]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

I think Mayfield is actually the perfect example of what I mean. He was not a bad QB in Cleveland, they just decided to move on because they have the worst owner in the NFL. And I think Mayfield himself would admit he wasn't really giving it his all early in his career. Not that he was especially lazy like say Jamarcus Russell was, but you didn't hear the stories of almost psychotic commitment to getting better like you heard with Allen or Mahomes or Brady.

 

Did spending a year on the Panthers scout team turn his career around? Did Matt Rhule change the way he approached the position? Of course not. What happened is he put his head down and re-dedicated himself to his craft, then when opportunity knocked on a potential game winning drive for the Rams he was ready and seized his moment. Next thing you know Liam Cohen is getting the credit for "fixing" Baker Mayfield and gets a head coaching opportunity because they think he can "fix" Trevor Lawrence. Well, early returns on that aren't looking so great. The QB is going to have to fix himself. Nobody can do it for him.

 

This conversation reminded me of a hilarious post I saw earlier:

 

 

 
How could Mayfield turn his career around at Panthers by playing scout team DE? 😀

 

 

[GunnerBill]

12 hours ago, corta765 said:

I reallllyy wish people took the time to actual research things out. When the Lions got Goff he was a cast off and the trade was considered more for the picks media wise for the Lions then Goff himself. The Lions first half of the time with Goff/Ben were trash on offense, but the back half of 2021 they found their form which built into 2022 and continued big time into 23/24. To act like Johnson had nothing to do with it when literally there are legions of articles that said Goff was toast etc.. is hilarious and also reeks of today's what have you done for me now culture.

 

 

I am certainly not saying Johnson had nothing to do with what happened in Detroit and he actually wasn't OC during those struggles early on, our old mate Anthony Lynn was. Then Lynn was fired and Campbell called plays himself for a bit and steadied the ship before he handed over the reigns to Johnson. The thing I always admired about him as a play caller was how well he fitted his schem to his players. The first two years their passing game was incredibly simple, might even say limited. Their complexity was in the run game. Then as Jameson Williams broke out last year and gave them a viable running mate for St Brown and opened up the boundary to attack he added layers to the offense to maximise performance. 

 

The bit I push back slightly on (and I did at the time) was the idea of Goff as damaged goods. I never bought it then and I have never bought it since. Goff was not made by Sean McVay. He wasn't rescued by Ben Johnson either. Jared Goff is a good quarterback. He is one of the most accurate passers in football and throws with great touch and feel. The key to maximising Jared Goff is and always has been protection in front of him. By modern NFL QB standards he is a statue if pass rushers penetrate he is a stitting duck, a sack waiting to happen. But if he is protected he is and always has been a top 10 Quarterback. Bad with the disaster line his rookie year. In come Whitworth, Sullivan and others and suddenly Jared Goff looks really good. Then in 2020 Sullivan retires, Whit gets hurt and there is turmoil elsewhere on the line and suddenly Goff's form drops off and the Rams trade him. Gets to Detroit the line is a bit funky cos of injuries and Sewell being a rookie early and he doesn't look great but as soon as the line is sorted he immediately looks better. That is the truth to the Jared Goff story. It is just people like to spin the coach dependent narrative.

[Coach Tuesday]

5 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

My unpopular opinion is that QBs make themselves. The coaching doesn't matter nearly as much to that outcome as people think. I'm not saying coaching doesn't affect how well the offense as a whole functions, just that great QBs will be great no matter what coach they get tethered to and ditto for bad QBs. Daboll was dubbed a QB whisperer because Allen became elite under his watch. Turns out he's closer to the guy that had 30th ranked offenses for the vast majority of his pre-Allen career.

 

Nobody should have expected Ben Johnson to show up and "fix" Caleb Williams. I'm sure some Bears fans are disappointed but that's only because they had an unrealistic expectation. I continue to believe they will move on from Caleb Williams next year unless he shows massive improvement over the course of the season. Johnson isn't going to risk his first head coaching shot on an underperforming QB that he isn't tied to. He'll get his handpicked QB next year and then we'll begin to really see if he can live up to the hype.

I don’t know if I agree with your theory about QBs and coaches but I do think that Johnson’s QB is already on that roster.  Either by poor performance or injury it’s just a matter of time before Bagent is starting (they just paid him a bunch of $$ for a non-veteran backup QB), and once he gets the job IMO he’s never letting go of it.  That kid can play.

[FireChans]

7 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

My unpopular opinion is that QBs make themselves. The coaching doesn't matter nearly as much to that outcome as people think. I'm not saying coaching doesn't affect how well the offense as a whole functions, just that great QBs will be great no matter what coach they get tethered to and ditto for bad QBs. Daboll was dubbed a QB whisperer because Allen became elite under his watch. Turns out he's closer to the guy that had 30th ranked offenses for the vast majority of his pre-Allen career.

 

Nobody should have expected Ben Johnson to show up and "fix" Caleb Williams. I'm sure some Bears fans are disappointed but that's only because they had an unrealistic expectation. I continue to believe they will move on from Caleb Williams next year unless he shows massive improvement over the course of the season. Johnson isn't going to risk his first head coaching shot on an underperforming QB that he isn't tied to. He'll get his handpicked QB next year and then we'll begin to really see if he can live up to the hype.

I agree with largely all of this. The QB himself is 90% personally responsible for their own development and success.

 

the old “how would Brady and Peyton have done if they were drafted in the opposite situations” question was easy to answer. Both may have had a slightly different number of Super Bowls, but both would have still been all time QBs 

5 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

It's because where you land extremely matters 

 

To think it doesn't is fool's gold... These are 21 to 23-year-old kids... And 97% of them need to grow and learn

 

There's a reason why the bears haven't successfully developed a quarterback in 60 years lol never had a 4,000 yard thrower 

 

It is the organization

 

Same with darnold... Nobody question his talent or even his work ethic.. the Jets organization spits out quarterbacks for 50 years

Darnold is about to go back to being a backup after spending 2 seasons with two of the best offensive minds in the NFL who couldn’t hide his flaws forever.

 

Sam Darnold was never going to be good. Seems like a nice kid so it sucks, but that’s the way it goes.

[Mr. WEO]

Remember when Goff was just a product of McVay's "genius" and then Johnson's "genius"?  

 

LOL Johnson turned down a job with Washington (Jayden Daniels---who Poles passed on!) only to a year later to take a job coaching notoriously soft Caleb Williams.

 

 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

8 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

My unpopular opinion is that QBs make themselves. The coaching doesn't matter nearly as much to that outcome as people think. I'm not saying coaching doesn't affect how well the offense as a whole functions, just that great QBs will be great no matter what coach they get tethered to and ditto for bad QBs. Daboll was dubbed a QB whisperer because Allen became elite under his watch. Turns out he's closer to the guy that had 30th ranked offenses for the vast majority of his pre-Allen career.

 

Nobody should have expected Ben Johnson to show up and "fix" Caleb Williams. I'm sure some Bears fans are disappointed but that's only because they had an unrealistic expectation. I continue to believe they will move on from Caleb Williams next year unless he shows massive improvement over the course of the season. Johnson isn't going to risk his first head coaching shot on an underperforming QB that he isn't tied to. He'll get his handpicked QB next year and then we'll begin to really see if he can live up to the hype.

This, sort of. I do think it benefits a QB to have long term relationships with his OC, though 

[FireChans]

44 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Remember when Goff was just a product of McVay's "genius" and then Johnson's "genius"?  

 

LOL Johnson turned down a job with Washington (Jayden Daniels---who Poles passed on!) only to a year later to take a job coaching notoriously soft Caleb Williams.

 

 

 

Remember when Goff was considered a negative asset in the trade for Matt Stafford. 
 

I like Jared, but he is who he is.

[corta765]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

The bit I push back slightly on (and I did at the time) was the idea of Goff as damaged goods. I never bought it then and I have never bought it since. Goff was not made by Sean McVay. He wasn't rescued by Ben Johnson either. Jared Goff is a good quarterback. He is one of the most accurate passers in football and throws with great touch and feel. The key to maximising Jared Goff is and always has been protection in front of him. By modern NFL QB standards he is a statue if pass rushers penetrate he is a stitting duck, a sack waiting to happen. But if he is protected he is and always has been a top 10 Quarterback. Bad with the disaster line his rookie year. In come Whitworth, Sullivan and others and suddenly Jared Goff looks really good. Then in 2020 Sullivan retires, Whit gets hurt and there is turmoil elsewhere on the line and suddenly Goff's form drops off and the Rams trade him. Gets to Detroit the line is a bit funky cos of injuries and Sewell being a rookie early and he doesn't look great but as soon as the line is sorted he immediately looks better. That is the truth to the Jared Goff story. It is just people like to spin the coach dependent narrative.

Jared Goff has proven without good coaching and a solid cast of playmakers he cannot do it on his own which I think is why he always has an asterisk with how good he truly is or isn't given the truly best QBs can make it work in any circumstance. I will give him credit he has improved substantially from LA which I get why McVay traded him and with good coaching/playmakers he is a legit top QB. But like you said the moment he has pressure he is toast and that has forever been his Achilles heal. Also while I am admittedly not a Goff fan I do agree the narratives spun at the trade were also a bit overboard that he was trash etc.. He has proven given him a line with decent weapons and he can do a lot of things. The narrative on QBs these days is nuts and the patience is so thin. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Tua in a new spot with a decent line and coach got it going similar to 22/23, his issue and forever his issue is health.