SoCal Deek Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 So if these are being sold for a 30 year lifespan and there are 10 home games a year (300 total games) then a $20,000 PSL essentially raises your ticket price by $75.00 per game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotAGuy Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 1 hour ago, Einstein said: You're buying air. Well, to be completely accurate, he’s also buying tiny wieners on sticks and soft pretzels. Maybe a beef on weck. And a Pepsi. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 Just now, SoCal Deek said: So if these are being sold for a 30 year lifespan and there are 10 home games a year (300 total games) then a $20,000 PSL essentially raises your ticket price by $75.00 per game. Basically, and the ticket prices in the new stadium are roughly double what they are now for these same seats. I think that the face value of my seats now are about $300 a game. In the new stadium they are like $550 I think (plus the license fee). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 Just now, Kirby Jackson said: Basically, and the ticket prices in the new stadium are roughly double what they are now for these same seats. I think that the face value of my seats now are about $300 a game. In the new stadium they are like $550 I think (plus the license fee). I’m going to assume you’re correct, but the cost of seats in the current stadium isn’t really relevant. As I see it the PSL is way of hiding the actual ticket cost while at the same time getting a long term commitment upfront. A word to the wise: Your life is going to change drastically over the span of thirty years! Getting effectively married to a plastic seat with built in cup holders may not be the wisest commitment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: I’m going to assume you’re correct, but the cost of seats in the current stadium isn’t really relevant. As I see it the PSL is way of hiding the actual ticket cost while at the same time getting a long term commitment upfront. A word to the wise: Your life is going to change drastically over the span of thirty years! Getting effectively married to a plastic seat with built in cup holders may not be the wisest commitment. It’s not hiding anything. It is done that way to avoid revenue sharing. The PSL offsets a portion of Pegula’s cost to build the new stadium. It’s the cost of entry if you want to be in. It’s not uncommon at all. The areas yet to be released will come with lower price tags. Are you going to get your money back out on the PSL? No. Maybe if you can buy those lower level clubs at midfield, that’ll keep some of its value. Ticket brokers could be interested in that because they can get a ton of money of a per ticket basis there. That’s the only place that will somewhat hold its value. No one is buying a PSL as an investment though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 11 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: So if these are being sold for a 30 year lifespan and there are 10 home games a year (300 total games) then a $20,000 PSL essentially raises your ticket price by $75.00 per game. Yes, IF you ignore these 3 factors: 1) If you count pre-season. I wouldn't. 2) And if you pay cash (most will finance is my guess). 3) And if you don't take into account opportunity cost, which would be approximately $181,260 over 30 years. Some of this will be offset by hedging against inflation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 1 minute ago, Einstein said: Yes, IF you ignore these 3 factors: 1) If you count pre-season. I wouldn't. 2) And if you pay cash (most will finance is my guess). 3) And if you don't take into account opportunity cost, which would be approximately $181,260 over 30 years. Some of this will be offset by hedging against inflation. 3 years and it is interest free. It’s like 10.5% if you do the 10 year finance. They said very few people have gone the finance route so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: 3 years and it is interest free. It’s like 10.5% if you do the 10 year finance. They said very few people have gone the finance route so far. 3 years interest free is a no brainer 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said: It’s not hiding anything. It is done that way to avoid revenue sharing. The PSL offsets a portion of Pegula’s cost to build the new stadium. It’s the cost of entry if you want to be in. It’s not uncommon at all. The areas yet to be released will come with lower price tags. Are you going to get your money back out on the PSL? No. Maybe if you can buy those lower level clubs at midfield, that’ll keep some of its value. Ticket brokers could be interested in that because they can get a ton of money of a per ticket basis there. That’s the only place that will somewhat hold its value. No one is buying a PSL as an investment though. bills will be cracking down on ticket brokers/ frequent nfl ticket exchange listers....just like they recently did with sabres STH anyone who thinks they will buy tix in the new stadium only to resell most of them are in for rude awakening buy a NY State Brokers License or not be able to buy tickets....which may lead to losing your PSL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 13 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: 3 years interest free is a no brainer Yep, that’s the route that we are going to go when we eventually commit to something. 11 minutes ago, papazoid said: bills will be cracking down on ticket brokers/ frequent nfl ticket exchange listers....just like they recently did with sabres STH anyone who thinks they will buy tix in the new stadium only to resell most of them are in for rude awakening buy a NY State Brokers License or not be able to buy tickets....which may lead to losing your PSL The people buying those will be some of their broker partners. The Bills have had some broker partner relationships that date back to the Super Bowl years. They will have a certain amount of seats that those people will have access to. I’d venture to say that they are incentivized by discounting the PSL based on the number of seats that they buy. As an example, if they have someone that has 500 season tickets, they may only charge them for 400 PSLs. They may give them 10 years interest free or whatever. I don’t know exactly how they engage brokers but there is strategy to it in all cases. It’s tough in the NFL because you can’t discount tickets with revenue sharing. There’s no reason that you couldn’t make a deal on the PSLs though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 35 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: Basically, and the ticket prices in the new stadium are roughly double what they are now for these same seats. I think that the face value of my seats now are about $300 a game. In the new stadium they are like $550 I think (plus the license fee). ouch. That’s a steep jump. Essentially tripling your cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 3 minutes ago, NoSaint said: ouch. That’s a steep jump. Essentially tripling your cost? I haven’t done all of the math yet but yeah. It’s not pretty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyNoodles Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 Air is so good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 41 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: 3 years and it is interest free. Oh I missed that. That is not a bad offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said: It’s not hiding anything. It is done that way to avoid revenue sharing. The PSL offsets a portion of Pegula’s cost to build the new stadium. It’s the cost of entry if you want to be in. It’s not uncommon at all. The areas yet to be released will come with lower price tags. Are you going to get your money back out on the PSL? No. Maybe if you can buy those lower level clubs at midfield, that’ll keep some of its value. Ticket brokers could be interested in that because they can get a ton of money of a per ticket basis there. That’s the only place that will somewhat hold its value. No one is buying a PSL as an investment though. Kirby, I’m not trying be snarky, but isn’t Pegula avoiding revenue sharing the very definition of ‘hiding’? 😉 And as regards the price to the ticket holder there’s a reason why when you see a car lease offer the monthly payment is shown in BIG bold font, and the down payment is ‘hidden’ in LITTLE hard to read font. So unless your private seat license allows you to go in and eat cheese sandwich in your private seat on an odd Thursday in May, when there isn’t a game/event happening….then it really is nothing more than a hidden ticket price. No? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 25 minutes ago, papazoid said: bills will be cracking down on ticket brokers/ frequent nfl ticket exchange listers....just like they recently did with sabres STH anyone who thinks they will buy tix in the new stadium only to resell most of them are in for rude awakening buy a NY State Brokers License or not be able to buy tickets....which may lead to losing your PSL Sports teams need brokers and resellers to insulate franchises from large swings in ticket sales during down years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDHillFan Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said: I haven’t done all of the math yet but yeah. It’s not pretty What are your impressions of the stadium outside of seat cost? The model?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 8 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Kirby, I’m not trying be snarky, but isn’t Pegula avoiding revenue sharing the very definition of ‘hiding’? 😉 And as regards the price to the ticket holder there’s a reason why when you see a car lease offer the monthly payment is shown in BIG bold font, and the down payment is ‘hidden’ in LITTLE hard to read font. So unless your private seat license allows you to go in and eat cheese sandwich in your private seat on an odd Thursday in May, when there isn’t a game/event happening….then it really is nothing more than a hidden ticket price. No? The Bills aren’t avoiding revenue sharing in the least because revenues from the sale of PSLs are not subject to sharing with the league. The league still gets their 40% share of the gate revenue for any particular game just like it’s been for decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotAGuy Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 16 minutes ago, K-9 said: The Bills aren’t avoiding revenue sharing in the least because revenues from the sale of PSLs are not subject to sharing with the league. The league still gets their 40% share of the gate revenue for any particular game just like it’s been for decades. I read that the PSL sales can only go toward the stadium construction costs, but it was probably here that I read it so YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 (edited) 36 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Kirby, I’m not trying be snarky, but isn’t Pegula avoiding revenue sharing the very definition of ‘hiding’? 😉 And as regards the price to the ticket holder there’s a reason why when you see a car lease offer the monthly payment is shown in BIG bold font, and the down payment is ‘hidden’ in LITTLE hard to read font. So unless your private seat license allows you to go in and eat cheese sandwich in your private seat on an odd Thursday in May, when there isn’t a game/event happening….then it really is nothing more than a hidden ticket price. No? I mean, not really. Most owners go that route with new stadiums. It isn’t a secret that the PSLs come off of the owner’s contribution to the stadium. It isn’t ideal but we knew a decade ago that this would eventually be the case. I equate the PSL to buying a car new. Once you drive it off the lot it’s value drops drastically. You then put 20,000 miles a year on the first 3 years and it just isn’t close to what you paid. After a handful more years, it’s basically worthless. That’s why you aren’t buying it as an investment. You’re buying it because you want to be in the stadium for all Bills games. I guess by that logic, it is another ticket fee. It’s like the initiation fee at a country club. You still have to pay your monthly dues, any assessments that come around and fees for different services. All that the initiation fee does is give you the right to pay those other fees. 34 minutes ago, JDHillFan said: What are your impressions of the stadium outside of seat cost? The model?? It looked awesome. They walk you through how it is built a certain way to redirect wind. They talk about how the appearance is inspired by Kleinhans and the Aud. I thought that was all pretty sweet. The attention to detail was so far beyond what we currently have. I guess that isn’t a surprise with a 52 year old stadium. It looks like it will be one of the nicer stadiums in the league. Edited April 9 by Kirby Jackson 3 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 24 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: Sports teams need brokers and resellers to insulate franchises from large swings in ticket sales during down years. makes perfect sense except the sabres seem to be in another down year.....and yet they are purging resellers Buffalo Sabres Crack Down on Ticket Resales with License Requirement, Fans in Uproar Over New Season Shakeup https://fanrecap.com/buffalo-sabres-crack-down-on-ticket-resales-with-license-requirement-fans-in-uproar-over-new-season-shakeup/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 12 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: I mean, not really. Most owners go that route with new stadiums. It isn’t a secret that the PSLs come off of the owner’s contribution to the stadium. It isn’t ideal but we knew a decade ago that this would eventually be the case. I equate the PSL to buying a car new. Once you drive it off the lot it’s value drops drastically. You then put 20,000 miles a year on the first 3 years and it just isn’t close to what you paid. After a handful more years, it’s basically worthless. That’s why you aren’t buying it as an investment. You’re buying it because you want to be in the stadium for almm on Bills games. I guess by that logic, it is another ticket fee. It’s like the initiation fee at a country club. You still have to pay your monthly dues, any assessments that come around and fees for different services. All that the initiation fee does is give you the right to pay those other fees. It looked awesome. They walk you through how it is built a certain way to redirect wind. They talk about how the appearance is inspired by Kleinhans and the Aud. I thought that was all pretty sweet. The attention to detail was so far beyond what we currently have. I guess that isn’t a surprise with a 52 year old stadium. It looks like it will be one of the nicer stadiums in the league. I like the new car and country club comparisons. I decided to pay because it’s worth it to me. I think that’s pretty simple. Country clubs can be even more expensive than PSL’s and you can’t always just walk away. You might have to be paying dues indefinitely until someone will buy it, which brings me back around to timeshares, but that’s another topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 44 minutes ago, K-9 said: The Bills aren’t avoiding revenue sharing in the least because revenues from the sale of PSLs are not subject to sharing with the league. The league still gets their 40% share of the gate revenue for any particular game just like it’s been for decades. Geeez we appear to be talking right past each other. Thats okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 19 minutes ago, WotAGuy said: I read that the PSL sales can only go toward the stadium construction costs, but it was probably here that I read it so YMMV. Technically, the Bills can use PSL revenues for whatever they wanna use them for, but it makes sense to put it towards their share of the construction costs. The only point I was trying to make is that unlike revenues generated from ticket sales, which are shared 60/40 between the team/league, PSL revenues are not subject to revenue sharing so it’s not like the Bills are “hiding” anything from the league as was suggested in the post I responded to initially. 1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said: Geeez we appear to be talking right past each other. Thats okay. I have no idea why you’d say that as it seemed you weren’t sure when you suggested to @Kirby Jackson that Pegula was avoiding revenue sharing by hiding something and I only sought to clarify the issue for you. I have no idea how that’s talking past you, but yeah, that’s okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 4 minutes ago, K-9 said: Technically, the Bills can use PSL revenues for whatever they wanna use them for, but it makes sense to put it towards their share of the construction costs. The only point I was trying to make is that unlike revenues generated from ticket sales, which are shared 60/40 between the team/league, PSL revenues are not subject to revenue sharing so it’s not like the Bills are “hiding” anything from the league as was suggested in the post I responded to initially. I have no idea why you’d say that as it seemed you weren’t sure when you suggested to @Kirby Jackson that Pegula was avoiding revenue sharing by hiding something and I only sought to clarify the issue for you. I have no idea how that’s talking past you, but yeah, that’s okay. Kirby said nobody was hiding anything. But in truth, if he’s correct, then Pegula is in fact hiding/avoiding revenue sharing. Now, I’m not saying that’s good, bad, or unusual but this whole PSL thing is one big dodge at its core. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrb1979 Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 37 minutes ago, papazoid said: makes perfect sense except the sabres seem to be in another down year.....and yet they are purging resellers Buffalo Sabres Crack Down on Ticket Resales with License Requirement, Fans in Uproar Over New Season Shakeup https://fanrecap.com/buffalo-sabres-crack-down-on-ticket-resales-with-license-requirement-fans-in-uproar-over-new-season-shakeup/ That crack down came from NY state. It wasn't up to the Sabres. I have a feeling it's just the beginning. I'm sure they will implement it for all NY teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 Just now, SoCal Deek said: Kirby said nobody was hiding anything. But in truth, if he’s correct, then Pegula is in fact hiding/avoiding revenue sharing. Now, I’m not saying that’s good, bad, or unusual but this whole PSL thing is one big dodge at its core. As we all know, in the NFL there is shared and unshared revenue. If sales from PSLs are not subject to revenue sharing, which they aren’t, then how is that “hiding/avoiding revenue sharing?” If Pegula was misrepresenting to the league the amount of revenue generated by ticket sales, which every team is obligated to share on a 60/40 basis with the league, then yeah, he would be hiding and avoiding revenue sharing. But it is virtually impossible to fudge the numbers on ticket sales so that isn’t gonna happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 3 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said: That crack down came from NY state. It wasn't up to the Sabres. I have a feeling it's just the beginning. I'm sure they will implement it for all NY teams. whoever is responsible for the crackdown......it's highly likely it will eventually effect bills STH's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 4 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Kirby said nobody was hiding anything. But in truth, if he’s correct, then Pegula is in fact hiding/avoiding revenue sharing. Now, I’m not saying that’s good, bad, or unusual but this whole PSL thing is one big dodge at its core. There are other revenues that aren’t subject to revenue sharing. Advertising and sponsorships, for example aren’t shared. That’s why teams try to sell “soft” assets. As an example, if Highmark is going to pay the Bills $10m a year (or whatever) the Bills are going to try to allocate as much of that as possible to advertising. They don’t want them buying $10M worth of tickets. Basically NFL teams get a different percentage of money depending on what it is spent on. This is the biggest reason that the Bills needed a new stadium. Teams were outpacing them with local revenue (nonshared). That revenue DOES still drive the cap. So the cap will continue to rise. While the Bills will get their equal share of the national revenue, the gap, over time, will continue to widen if teams keep growing their local revenue. The NFL owners wanted a new stadium because they wanted the Bills contributing more shared revenue on the ticket front. The more that the Bills charge, the more they’re contributing to the shared revenue pool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsPride12 Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said: It’s like the initiation fee at a country club. You still have to pay your monthly dues, any assessments that come around and fees for different services. All that the initiation fee does is give you the right to pay those other fees. It looked awesome. They walk you through how it is built a certain way to redirect wind. They talk about how the appearance is inspired by Kleinhans and the Aud. I thought that was all pretty sweet. The attention to detail was so far beyond what we currently have. I guess that isn’t a surprise with a 52 year old stadium. It looks like it will be one of the nicer stadiums in the league. That's the first time I've heard anything like that about the new stadium. Sounds cool. Can you elaborate on that at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 1 minute ago, BillsPride12 said: That's the first time I've heard anything like that about the new stadium. Sounds cool. Can you elaborate on that at all? It was the first that I heard it also. It has the Kleinhans shape and “look” from the outside. I didn’t see as much of the Aud. They just mentioned it as we were going through. I forgot about the Rockpile influence as well. You see that in the entrances. It looks a lot like the Rockpile. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrb1979 Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 22 minutes ago, papazoid said: whoever is responsible for the crackdown......it's highly likely it will eventually effect bills STH's Why does many keep thinking they won't do crack down on them too? Other teams have done it. The Giants did it a few years ago as well as the Broncos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsPride12 Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 7 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: It was the first that I heard it also. It has the Kleinhans shape and “look” from the outside. I didn’t see as much of the Aud. They just mentioned it as we were going through. I forgot about the Rockpile influence as well. You see that in the entrances. It looks a lot like the Rockpile. That sounds pretty awesome. I'm surprised this isn't being marketed more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 5 minutes ago, BillsPride12 said: That sounds pretty awesome. I'm surprised this isn't being marketed more. Yeah, it was one of the first things that they showed us as we went through. The model that they have of the stadium was pretty awesome as well. It’s going to be really nice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 43 minutes ago, papazoid said: whoever is responsible for the crackdown......it's highly likely it will eventually effect bills STH's 19 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said: Why does many keep thinking they won't do crack down on them too? Other teams have done it. The Giants did it a few years ago as well as the Broncos. It’s one of the “dirty little secrets.” Teams have as many, or as few, broker seats as they want. My guess on the Sabres “crackdown” is that they just CAN’T continue to have that many Leaf fans in the building. That last game was embarrassing. You live with 50/50 in those situations but that game was like 80/20 for the visitors. It was too much. This is a total guess but maybe 2k-5k broker seats in the new stadium. They’ll probably limit it to 20 or so partners so that they can control it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotAGuy Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 14 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: Yeah, it was one of the first things that they showed us as we went through. The model that they have of the stadium was pretty awesome as well. It’s going to be really nice. I’m surprised the one club doesn’t have viewing of the field. Is it located behind some suites or just buried in the structure somehow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrb1979 Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: It’s one of the “dirty little secrets.” Teams have as many, or as few, broker seats as they want. My guess on the Sabres “crackdown” is that they just CAN’T continue to have that many Leaf fans in the building. That last game was embarrassing. You live with 50/50 in those situations but that game was like 80/20 for the visitors. It was too much. This is a total guess but maybe 2k-5k broker seats in the new stadium. They’ll probably limit it to 20 or so partners so that they can control it. Again it wasn't the Sabres who decided this. It came from NY state. You can't tell me that a government official saw the amount of Leaf fans in the stands and decided "We have to do something about that" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 26 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: It was the first that I heard it also. It has the Kleinhans shape and “look” from the outside. I didn’t see as much of the Aud. They just mentioned it as we were going through. I forgot about the Rockpile influence as well. You see that in the entrances. It looks a lot like the Rockpile. It might be 10-15 years ago now, but an old friend drove me from a game back to my hotel and he took me by the old Rockpile entrance. It was just the gates, but they made such an impression on me as a kid it was emotional to see them again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 1 hour ago, K-9 said: Technically, the Bills can use PSL revenues for whatever they wanna use them for, but it makes sense to put it towards their share of the construction costs. They can’t. PSL’s must be used for the construction project and nothing else. Its just double taxation for WNY’ers. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said: It was the first that I heard it also. It has the Kleinhans shape and “look” from the outside. I didn’t see as much of the Aud. They just mentioned it as we were going through. I forgot about the Rockpile influence as well. You see that in the entrances. It looks a lot like the Rockpile. I honestly don’t care (it doesn’t bother me), but i’m curious why they would pick Kleinhans to model from. Its a staple, but definitely not in the top 5 of things I think of when “Buffalo New York” pops in my head. Personally, since the day the rendering was released, all I can see is a stadium that resembles an upscale mall entrance. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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