dgrochester55 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 (edited) Shakir is a mid-round draft pick with a lot of promise. He is not a proven commodity. Sometimes, Wide Receivers look good as a third or fourth option but regress greatly when it is their time to be the #1 or #2 guy. Let's not forget how great Gabe Davis looked before 2023. Two years later, we are moving on from him because he was not consistent enough to be the #2. Shakir has earned a more significant role but should not be relied on to the point where we do not draft or sign one or two higher-profile players. Edited March 3 by dgrochester55 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billzgobowlin Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 Do we really need another WR. I feel our WR/TE are better as a whole than the Chiefs. A replacement for Diggs in a couple of years yes but I think run game should be a focus too. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 36 minutes ago, dgrochester55 said: Shakir is a mid-round draft pick with a lot of promise. He is not a proven commodity. Sometimes, Wide Receivers look good as a third or fourth option but regress greatly when it is their time to be the #1 or #2 guy. Let's not forget how great Gabe Davis looked before 2023. Two years later, we are moving on from him because he was not consistent enough to be the #2. Shakir has earned a more significant role but should not be relied on to the point where we do not draft or sign one or two higher-profile players. Don't worry, they're not counting on Shakir to be a #1 or 2 WR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_In_NH Posted March 3 Author Share Posted March 3 57 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: You can't just look at analytics, and numbers. An overall, yes, "intuitive" sense of the whole will yield a better, more truly accurate holistic narrative. The Bills' offense can sputter and struggle for long stretches of a game. It also, this year, had very few big, explosive plays, requiring those long drives with more opportunities for bad plays, mishap, and zebra intervention to derail the offense. And apart from injury, Diggs' lack of second-half production was also directly tied to significant deficiency at WR2. We do not have an X that demands attention. And, as Greg Cosell recently said, the Bills' WR room lacks "juice." Cosell even thinks Diggs is no longer a true #1. The Chiefs were able to pursue the strategy you appear to want to emulate because they have Andy Reid, one of the finest offensive minds to ever coach the game. Regardless, the strategy of investing the majority of draft capital on defense is something Beane has tried. What he hasn't tried is giving Josh Allen top level WRs with the exception of the trade for Diggs. Whether they are a good team or not, teams fear the Dolphins' offense. It's not because of Tua. We have one of the best QBs on the planet, and we do not have an offense that other teams' fear, even if there is numerical production. And the problem is offensive weapons. We need more alpha playmakers, and Beane should make that the top priority in the draft. Of course, we could also use Chris Jones, so it's true for both sides of the ball. What folks should want, bottom line, is an offense that is not simply adequate, or good, but considerably more than that with Josh Allen. Yeah we will disagree, I like data and facts vs biased intuition. I say biased because most fans are much more in tune wiht their team, consume media for their team, know their teams warts better than the rest of the league. That is why actually looking at data is a better approach. The simple stats I raised are just that simple, if you dive deeper into efficiency, 3rd down conversion rates, red zone production and other key indicators you will see the Bills are among the top in all of those also. Your assertion that because the Bills have not made a couple plays here and there on defense, on specal teams and offense in a couple playoff games against the Chiefs the answer is more fire power is not founded in anything other than opinion and a "Madden" style answer to the problem. Can you list the offenses that don't sputter and struggle for long stretches at times? Your assertion that teams don't fear the Bills offense is just you opinion, they are in fact respected at a level right up there with the Chiefs offense. You are just biased as described above. If you read some of my other posts on this forum you will see I fully support drafting a WR with the first or second round pick and finding the next #1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 49 minutes ago, Billzgobowlin said: Do we really need another WR. I feel our WR/TE are better as a whole than the Chiefs. A replacement for Diggs in a couple of years yes but I think run game should be a focus too. I'd love to have a good run game. Kelly had Thurman. This offense would be hard to stop if it could both run and pass. But currently it can't do either with consistency. And with Josh as, by far, our best player, we need to build around him. We need a good group of bodyguards up front that keep him upright and give him time to throw. And we need receiving weapons. Too often we see Josh scrambling around either because (a) protection broke down, or (more commonly now) (b) no one's open. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearNorth Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 Are we going to miss Gabe's size and blocking when he's no longer here? Just wondering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 6 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said: Yeah we will disagree, I like data and facts vs biased intuition. I say biased because most fans are much more in tune wiht their team, consume media for their team, know their teams warts better than the rest of the league. That is why actually looking at data is a better approach. The simple stats I raised are just that simple, if you dive deeper into efficiency, 3rd down conversion rates, red zone production and other key indicators you will see the Bills are among the top in all of those also. Your assertion that because the Bills have not made a couple plays here and there on defense, on specal teams and offense in a couple playoff games against the Chiefs the answer is more fire power is not founded in anything other than opinion and a "Madden" style answer to the problem. Can you list the offenses that don't sputter and struggle for long stretches at times? Your assertion that teams don't fear the Bills offense is just you opinion, they are in fact respected at a level right up there with the Chiefs offense. You are just biased as described above. If you read some of my other posts on this forum you will see I fully support drafting a WR with the first or second round pick and finding the next #1. I'm far from a Madden superficial fella, but yes, let's just disagree. It's fine that we at least have some agreement on improving the WR room. You appear from my perspective to be heavily "left-brain" analytics. The "right-brain" global view actually catches nuances and complexities that escape numbers, precisely what is dismissed as subjective non-sense by the analytics crowd. The Bills offense should be much better than it is, and that is not a reductionist take based on the playoff performance alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 41 minutes ago, BearNorth said: Are we going to miss Gabe's size and blocking when he's no longer here? Just wondering. Maybe. It'll be interesting to see who Beane gets to replace him (if he leaves). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 (edited) Shakir has the potential to be this window’s Cole Beasley - albeit a different type of player (with some Deebo-lite RAC ability). Whether the lives up to that, we’ll see. Can be used outside in certain sets but should not be viewed as a high snap percentage outside WR. Given Diggs could see increased snaps in the slot this year (along with Kincaid), the Bills should heavily focus on making sure FA/Draft nets them two legitimate outside WR’s. Edited March 3 by SCBills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watkins101 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 I think a lot of fans are overvaluing him based on his later season production. We’ve seen this before with Multiple different recievers. Robert Foster in 2018 had ~500 yards in the final 8 games and fans thought he could be a 1b/2 receiver, instead he didn’t even reach 100 yards the next year. Gabe Davis had the huge Chiefs game and fans thought he’d be a great 1b (that could be a #1 on many teams). The next season, the discussion was whether he was good enough to be a 2. I think he is a great 4 Wr who has a good chance at being a good 3 Wr. I think he can get 300-600 yards and be a decent weapon. If we don’t draft/sign a 2 and/or 3 he may get more production in the regular season, but come playoff time our offense will suffer. (Unless Kincaid turns into Kelce) 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie2times Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 1 hour ago, Matt_In_NH said: Yeah we will disagree, I like data and facts vs biased intuition. I say biased because most fans are much more in tune wiht their team, consume media for their team, know their teams warts better than the rest of the league. That is why actually looking at data is a better approach. The simple stats I raised are just that simple, if you dive deeper into efficiency, 3rd down conversion rates, red zone production and other key indicators you will see the Bills are among the top in all of those also. Your assertion that because the Bills have not made a couple plays here and there on defense, on specal teams and offense in a couple playoff games against the Chiefs the answer is more fire power is not founded in anything other than opinion and a "Madden" style answer to the problem. Can you list the offenses that don't sputter and struggle for long stretches at times? Your assertion that teams don't fear the Bills offense is just you opinion, they are in fact respected at a level right up there with the Chiefs offense. You are just biased as described above. If you read some of my other posts on this forum you will see I fully support drafting a WR with the first or second round pick and finding the next #1. Our offense gets a lot of it's 3rd down efficiency and red zone efficiency from Allen running. No team in NFL history has won a Super Bowl with a QB that runs as much as Allen. So while our recipe can grade successfully in several areas it doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to build an offense that can function more conventionally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Tim Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 Shakir will be better this year than last year. He will be a top 8 slot guy in the NFL similar to Beasley was to us. When we drafted him I was thrill because in college he was like Beasley but more athletic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billzgobowlin Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 2 hours ago, hondo in seattle said: I'd love to have a good run game. Kelly had Thurman. This offense would be hard to stop if it could both run and pass. But currently it can't do either with consistency. And with Josh as, by far, our best player, we need to build around him. We need a good group of bodyguards up front that keep him upright and give him time to throw. And we need receiving weapons. Too often we see Josh scrambling around either because (a) protection broke down, or (more commonly now) (b) no one's open. This is the NFL unless someone on the defense is out of position no one is ever open Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warriorspikes51 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 A good to very good WR3 / Slot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 On 3/2/2024 at 10:46 AM, Matt_In_NH said: With all the discussion on needs at WR I get the feeling the "need" is not quite what many think it is. I think they should expend a premium draft asset (first or second round) this year to try to find the next #1 guy. In addition to that, some kind of vet who can step in if needed and certainly open to another draft pick on day 3 where the Bills have found both Davis and Shakir. The Bills have Diggs as a #1, there is some chatter if he is still that, I think he is. I think his skill set is something that can work for an older receiver. That big question is the drop off in production once Brady took over, can that be changed? I would like to think so. But I think with Shakir coming on along with Kincaid, if they add one more premium asset they are in pretty good shape as far as weapons go. But the point of this thread is Khalil Shakir. He really came on the final 10 games last year where he was nearly at a 1000 yard pace. Is he a potential Beasley type security blanket for Josh with upside in RAC? Beasley was a master of finding a hole and letting Josh hit him, I think Shakir can do that but he can actually do much more. Or maybe they are completely different. Shakir can play outside too, I like him as a prospect moving forward. Do you guys see him as a slot receiver with Diggs and future #2 and Kincaid where they go back to more 11? As someone who has been high on Shakir going into the draft, pleaded to take him in the 3rd even and was ecstatic when we managed to get him in the 5th, and has pounded the drum for him since he got here, especially earlier this year and all last offseason...I will say the following: Shakir is more than just a slot WR. All the things commonly said about Shakir are the same things everyone said about Cooper Kupp coming out of college. Kupp was seen as a slot guy that could play some outside, but was more of a slot guy and would likely need to move around outside and inside to find ways to get open. Shakir is faster than Kupp too, and they are close in frame and weight with Kupp being an inch taller and 4 pounds heavier. Im not saying Shakir is going to put Kupp like numbers up, just saying it is a mistake to pigeon hole him as just a slot WR in a Cole Beasley style role only. No doubt we are drafting a WR and I expect it to be early and someone with WR1 type potential to learn from Diggs and eventually replace him. But I think Shakir is going to prove to be a dangerous weapon for us this year along with Diggs and Kincaid. Now add in at least 1 rookie with WR1 type potential, and suddenly we not only got a great offense this year, be we got 3 or more young pieces to continue to build around in the post Diggs era with Shakir, the rookie(s) this year and Kincaid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_In_NH Posted March 3 Author Share Posted March 3 5 hours ago, Mikie2times said: Our offense gets a lot of it's 3rd down efficiency and red zone efficiency from Allen running. No team in NFL history has won a Super Bowl with a QB that runs as much as Allen. So while our recipe can grade successfully in several areas it doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to build an offense that can function more conventionally. Russell Wilson had more rushing yards the year the Seahawks won the SB than Allen had last year. Besides with the evolution of the position there will be future winners who run it more. However I agree with your point that they should try to take more off of Allen's rushing but some of that is on Allen's growth as a passer and not just "more and better weapons". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan_34 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 On 3/2/2024 at 1:49 PM, Bills!Win! said: Shakir would make a great slot receiver. We just need someone with Gabe Davis’ size who is willing to get jump balls. Legette if he is there in the 2nd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCofNC Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 He’s the best of a really weak group behind Diggs. That’s not saying much. He should come into camp with plenty of competition and have to eat his spot, he’s proven exactly nothing yet. Had they taken that approach with Davis, he would have been pushed to the right role for hime, a #3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 Why exactly is Khalil Shakir? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_In_NH Posted March 4 Author Share Posted March 4 6 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said: Maybe. It'll be interesting to see who Beane gets to replace him (if he leaves). I cannot see him coming back but I once thought that about Milano though so you never know. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HankBulloughMellencamp Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 3 hours ago, Matt_In_NH said: I cannot see him coming back but I once thought that about Milano though so you never know. I agree, you just never know! Nearly everyone assumed Milano was a goner. Clearly, unless Andy Reid takes a shine to him, Davis would not be going to a team with a comparable at the QB position. Actually, I'd really hate to see him end up there! 😱 It's apparent Gabe has enjoyed playing here with Josh, and as an elected team captain, he is considered a leader in our locker room. If we somehow kept him on a sweetheart deal, I'd still think BBB would/should draft a WR by round 2 or 3 to add some talent & youth to the weapons arsenal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 22 hours ago, Billzgobowlin said: This is the NFL unless someone on the defense is out of position no one is ever open There are analytic sites that chart separation, and some receivers are more 'open' (i.e. gain more separation) than others. And some schemes get guys 'open' more than others. I'd like for the Bills receivers to be on the good end of the spectrum rather than the poor end where we are now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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