ddaryl Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 1 hour ago, DCofNC said: I’m saying, eat it this year. Eat the dead cap, cut the fat and rely on rookies/coaches to make a difference. Diggs and Miller CAN both go, it’s going to hurt. I’d take it for one year vs another year of nothing and no advancement towards a title. rip the bandaid off, I agree. Salary Cap Gymnastics can work for a couple of years but at some point you have to reset Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Billl said: This is the crux of the matter right here. A front office is always serving two masters. They are trying to win a Superbowl, but they're also trying to keep their jobs. If you believe, as I do, that the best path to a championship is to rip off the band-aid now, take your lumps in 2024, and target 2025 and beyond, the it's a question of whether McBeane feel they have enough job security to survive a 7-10 type season. To me, Beane is acting more like a guy who would rather continuing to kick the can down the road for as long as he can win 10 games and make the playoffs rather than someone who is singularly focused on winning a championship. It's why I think this board directs too much blame at McDermott and not enough at Beane. It's not just cap management, either. Even the draft picks have been safe lately. A 24 year old TE in the first round and interior OL in the second are solid pieces, but they're relatively high floor, low ceiling picks. They're not the type you take when your mentality is "superstar or bust". They're the type you target when you feel that you've got enough firepower on the roster already and need to supplement them with quality supporting pieces. I think that Beane has been guilty of flip-flopping team building philosophies trying to meet in the middle, sometimes even in the same draft. Our top picks, too often, have been where need meets BPA. Which is fine sometimes, but sometimes you pass on better talent to fill more pressing roster holes. Like Boogie Basham, whose ceiling was a JAG level player. In the later rounds, Beane has done extraordinarily well at just targeting guys that can play, which is why we have a solid hit rate on players who are NFL caliber, if not superstars. For me, the Kincaid pick wasn’t that safe. To draft ANOTHER TE when you just gave your developed 3rd round TE a big contract is actually risky. It’s targeting the best player left on your board and expecting the coaches to make it work (shout out Ken Dorsey on that regard). The Torrence pick to me was clear as their annual “BPA meets need” pick and it worked out so far so all’s well that ends well. But once Saffold predictably played awful in 2022, you knew IOL was coming high. In the NFL draft, you can be right for the wrong reasons and wrong for the right reasons, and the ultimate barometer is not said and done until about 3-4 years after. Even the Chiefs took CEH in the first, a colossal blunder. They won two Superbowls after so who cares? But the process was clearly wrong there imo. Beane’s FA philosophy early in his career was bargain bin shop a handful of guys, and whoever panned out was the starter, and he would cut or trade away the rest, particularly on OL. That gave him a lot of draft flexibility. Now we are dealing with a much tighter cap, and he can’t do that. Edited February 20 by FireChans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 21 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Yikes. So technically whatever we sign him to later you can basically add $4.3 million to it. That would be terrible cap management by Brandon Beane. Doubt they’ll extend him today. Im guessing they won’t be bringing Floyd back. Should’ve extended him. I don’t think Floyd wanted to be extended, at least not at any price the Bills were willing to offer him. Floyd signed a 1-year “prove it” deal with the Rams after he was cut by Da Bears, then signed a 4 year, $64M deal with the Rams, helped them win a Super Bowl, played decently again in 2022, and was cut with 2 years left on his contract and something like $42M paid out. He signed with the Bills at what he regarded as a 30% discount to his last 1 year “prove it” contract of $10M with the Rams, and he undoubtedly wanted a multi-year deal, probably north of $10M/yr (his last 4 year was $16M/year and he earned $21M in 2 years) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeFrommStateFarm Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 22 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Leonard Floyd’s contract voids today. Costing us $4.3 in dead cap space for 2024. If we re-sign him later does that erase the dead cap? Did anyone notice that their were no Chiefs on the list ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweats Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 10 minutes ago, FireChans said: I think that Beane has been guilty of flip-flopping team building philosophies trying to meet in the middle, sometimes even in the same draft. Our top picks, too often, have been where need meets BPA. Which is fine sometimes, but sometimes you pass on better talent to fill more pressing roster holes. Like Boogie Basham, whose ceiling was a JAG level player. In the later rounds, Beane has done extraordinarily well at just targeting guys that can play, which is why we have a solid hit rate on players who are NFL caliber, if not superstars. For me, the Kincaid pick wasn’t that safe. To draft ANOTHER TE when you just gave your developed 3rd round TE a big contract is actually risky. It’s targeting the best player left on your board and expecting the coaches to make it work (shout out Ken Dorsey on that regard). The Torrence pick to me was clear as their annual “BPA meets need” pick and it worked out so far so all’s well that ends well. But once Saffold predictably played awful in 2022, you knew IOL was coming high. In the NFL draft, you can be right for the wrong reasons and wrong for the right reasons, and the ultimate barometer is not said and done until about 3-4 years after. Even the Chiefs took CEH in the first, a colossal blunder. They won two Superbowls after so who cares? But the process was clearly wrong there imo. Beane’s FA philosophy early in his career was bargain bin shop a handful of guys, and whoever panned out was the starter, and he would cut or trade away the rest, particularly on OL. That gave him a lot of draft flexibility. Now we are dealing with a much tighter cap, and he can’t do that. I understand your point, however, it's not really that risky when you consider that we were in desperate need of a guy who can play over the middle. We had a huge void when we let Beasley go, so instead of drafting a WR or looking in FA, we draft the BPA in the draft at that position. Also, Kincaid opens up alot more plays in the playbook for middle work, slots, stretching the D and don't forget blocking. The guy is as versatile as they come. It was a beautiful pick by our FO in recognizing the need for a positive yardage middle man who can fit into so much more packages and schemes than a plain old WR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: Beane argues, and it is not untrue, that the covid cap reduction threw all his plans out of kilter. There is some truth to that. Teams who were at the start of a Championship window in that period were hit the hardest because the last couple of years they had with a rookie QB as buyers in the market got sucked away by a reduced cap. However, you are right..... there is also money he has had to throw at Oline and Dline that is a direct result of the misses on the likes of Cody Ford and Boogie Basham and the fact that AJE and Rousseau were not in themselves difference makers. He is about to be in the same spot with Douglas when if Elam was ready, even with Tre's injuries, you should have been able to transition more smoothly to a cheap deal. So I do give him a bit of leeway on the covid cap implications but also, yea, he has gone hunting for difference makers in FA to cover one or two of his misses. I heard $252m mooted on Sunday by a twitter account of a guy who is pretty plugged in. That extra $10-12m would be huge for the Bills. Really good post. I do “buy it” that the Covid cap reduction threw.a bit of a wrench into Beane’s plans, but it’s also worth noting that Beane is not above deflecting responsibility. When he arrived here, he pointed fingers at the previous FO for having lots of FA and a high cap on underperformers. But, they also had enough talent to get the Bills to the playoffs that year, even with Beane fire-sale ing a couple of players. And today, we have a high cap on underperformers and lots of FA. His comment about not sucking badly enough to draft Ja’Marr Chase when asked about the Bengals WR talent was also, IMO, highly disingenuous. Now the excuse is the Covid cap. You nailed the bottom line - Beane used a number of high draft picks on OL and DL that did not pan out, so he backfilled with FA and more draft picks. In addition to Cody Ford and Boogie Basham you could add Harrison Phillips and at positions, you could add RB - Devin Singletary and Zack Moss in back to back drafts then another pick on James Cook. This is not to dunk on Beane as a talent evaluator, because a lot of draft picks just plain don’t turn out to be NFL level and all of those guys (maybe except for Basham) can actually play in the league, and maybe how they’re used and talent development has something to do with it. But it’s not just “oh the Covid cap blew us up, woe is me!” It’s that Beane took some moon shots in signing Von Miller and last year Leonard Floyd then the Rasul Douglas trade. The higher cap would be nice 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 (edited) 2 hours ago, Billl said: This is the crux of the matter right here. A front office is always serving two masters. They are trying to win a Superbowl, but they're also trying to keep their jobs. If you believe, as I do, that the best path to a championship is to rip off the band-aid now, take your lumps in 2024, and target 2025 and beyond, the it's a question of whether McBeane feel they have enough job security to survive a 7-10 type season. To me, Beane is acting more like a guy who would rather continuing to kick the can down the road for as long as he can win 10 games and make the playoffs rather than someone who is singularly focused on winning a championship. It's why I think this board directs too much blame at McDermott and not enough at Beane. It's not just cap management, either. Even the draft picks have been safe lately. A 24 year old TE in the first round and interior OL in the second are solid pieces, but they're relatively high floor, low ceiling picks. They're not the type you take when your mentality is "superstar or bust". They're the type you target when you feel that you've got enough firepower on the roster already and need to supplement them with quality supporting pieces. Agreed. I’ve thought the same regarding the early draft picks. As for Beane vs McDermott, I believe that McDermott is pulling the strings. It fits with the timing of the hired, but without knowing that for certain it’s impossible for me to assign responsibility. Lastly, I am certain that getting the new stadium deal led to some moves (Von Miller for one) and that selling PSLs and suites in the new venue will heavily influence some of the decisions made in the next few seasons. Edited February 20 by BarleyNY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 23 hours ago, strive_for_five_guy said: Kicked the can down the road is how I see it… Pretty much how I budget too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 4 hours ago, DCofNC said: I understand the cap and the rules very well, White is already gone in my mind. You don’t understand, I am saying, blow it up, eat ***** this year, and deal with it. Then you go into next year with a large amount of salary cap to work with. This team as it is, with the cap that’s left after kicking the can down the road again, is t good enough to win a Superbowl and to me, there’s no point in another year of an early playoff exit. I don’t want to be good, I want to be great. Greatness takes sacrifice and admitting you have a problem. Remember year one of Beane? He trimmed the fat off roster. The problem is, he turned around and added a lot of fat because they continued to miss in the draft. To make up for bad drafting, they had to pay veterans. Now you have one of the oldest rosters in the NFL and no way out without suffering. So clean it up, deal with it for a year and move on. The defense is a disaster after spending years trying to be a great defense. They have one good player on the entire DL that they drafted. The best hope is to sign a 33 yr old DT and pray he stays healthy to keep the run game in check. There is not one impact DE on the roster, the LB core is ok when Milano is back, the S position is a gapping hole, CB is weak and expensive. What are you trying to save? Dump White, Miller, Floyd’s gone, AJE will be priced out, Jones is 83 by NFL standards, you have the least athletic CBs of any contending team. The only saving grace is LB and that’s assuming they can stay healthy. This is the year to eat it and start over. The offense needs a talent infusion as well, but at least Kincaid looks good, Knox is over paid for his production, Diggs has fallen flat the back half of the last two years, I’m not excited about paying that guy so much either, so move him for whatever you can get, and you are really no worse off in the short term, and have room to breath long term. Except I really don't think you do. If you cut all those people you mentioned you are looking at tens of millions of dead cap money in one year. You still need to put together a 53 person roster and their are minimum spending numbers per season of real money. You think Allen would stay if they tanked an entire season? Would McDermott stay? Do you think the fans would put up with a purposeful nonplayoff season? What you are suggesting is absolute lunacy. When teams shed contacts it is because they are already terrible like Beane did in year 2 of this regime. No team in NFL history has ever tanked a season with a franchise QB. You can't be taken seriously posting stuff like this. Cutting even one of these guys with massive dead cap hits is untenable. We were two or three plays away from a Lombardi. We have ten draft picks. Even with McDermott they will compete for a SuperBowl with just a few roster tweaks. Now next year they can make some of the moves you suggest. The only decent player on his rookie contract that would be up for an extension would be Rousseau. And they can let him walk after his fifth year. He is nothing special. They will be able to walk away from Poyer, Diggs, Knox, Dawkins, and Miller after this upcoming season if they want to with or without some post June 1 designations. I'm not saying I agree with that but they become realistic options. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCofNC Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 18 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said: Except I really don't think you do. If you cut all those people you mentioned you are looking at tens of millions of dead cap money in one year. You still need to put together a 53 person roster and their are minimum spending numbers per season of real money. You think Allen would stay if they tanked an entire season? Would McDermott stay? Do you think the fans would put up with a purposeful nonplayoff season? What you are suggesting is absolute lunacy. When teams shed contacts it is because they are already terrible like Beane did in year 2 of this regime. No team in NFL history has ever tanked a season with a franchise QB. You can't be taken seriously posting stuff like this. Cutting even one of these guys with massive dead cap hits is untenable. We were two or three plays away from a Lombardi. We have ten draft picks. Even with McDermott they will compete for a SuperBowl with just a few roster tweaks. Now next year they can make some of the moves you suggest. The only decent player on his rookie contract that would be up for an extension would be Rousseau. And they can let him walk after his fifth year. He is nothing special. They will be able to walk away from Poyer, Diggs, Knox, Dawkins, and Miller after this upcoming season if they want to with or without some post June 1 designations. I'm not saying I agree with that but they become realistic options. Allen can’t go anywhere, he’s under contract, same for McClappy. It’s not a tank, it’s a rebuild, with addition by subtraction. The Chiefs did it just 2 years ago, unloading Hill, Frank Clark, etc, all “key” players and wound up winning the SB. The Packers retooled several times during Favre/Rodgers time. What you are saying is “I’m scared to watch a team cut the fat”. Poyer’s contract was set up to let him go this year btw, so pretending you have any idea what you are talking about is amusing. Yes, it will hurt, yes, you will have to part ways/not resign others because of taking the garbage out and yea some may have to be post June 1 designations to make it all spread out and hurt less, but it’s all doable and a lot of it needs to happen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 2 minutes ago, DCofNC said: Allen can’t go anywhere, he’s under contract, same for McClappy. It’s not a tank, it’s a rebuild, with addition by subtraction. The Chiefs did it just 2 years ago, unloading Hill, Frank Clark, etc, all “key” players and wound up winning the SB. The Packers retooled several times during Favre/Rodgers time. What you are saying is “I’m scared to watch a team cut the fat”. Poyer’s contract was set up to let him go this year btw, so pretending you have any idea what you are talking about is amusing. Yes, it will hurt, yes, you will have to part ways/not resign others because of taking the garbage out and yea some may have to be post June 1 designations to make it all spread out and hurt less, but it’s all doable and a lot of it needs to happen. The thing is all the injuries this year showed McBeane you can still win without keeping/paying every decent player you’ve drafted the last 6 years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 21 minutes ago, DCofNC said: Allen can’t go anywhere, he’s under contract, same for McClappy. It’s not a tank, it’s a rebuild, with addition by subtraction. The Chiefs did it just 2 years ago, unloading Hill, Frank Clark, etc, all “key” players and wound up winning the SB. The Packers retooled several times during Favre/Rodgers time. What you are saying is “I’m scared to watch a team cut the fat”. Poyer’s contract was set up to let him go this year btw, so pretending you have any idea what you are talking about is amusing. Yes, it will hurt, yes, you will have to part ways/not resign others because of taking the garbage out and yea some may have to be post June 1 designations to make it all spread out and hurt less, but it’s all doable and a lot of it needs to happen. Hill was in the final year of his contract with only $1.45M in dead cap money. Clark had two years left so there was a significant dead cap hit there around $7M. However in both cases they got considerable draft picks back in return. At the time Mahommes cap hit was $35M. Allen's is going to be $47M. Diggs and Miler's dead cap hits for 2024 are $32M and $31M. Are you really saying you would take on over $60M in dead cap in one year by getting rid of these two players? Can you find another example where a team in a Championship window took on over $60 M in dead cap space? How did that retoolling workout for Favre and Rodgers? Best player of recent note was Davante Adams and they traded him on the tag. Again draft pcik compensation and no dead cap hit. You are talking about cutting multiple players with millions in dead cap with zero return. It's just not going to happen. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCofNC Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 3 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said: Hill was in the final year of his contract with only $1.45M in dead cap money. Clark had two years left so there was a significant dead cap hit there around $7M. However in both cases they got considerable draft picks back in return. At the time Mahommes cap hit was $35M. Allen's is going to be $47M. Diggs and Miler's dead cap hits for 2024 are $32M and $31M. Are you really saying you would take on over $60M in dead cap in one year by getting rid of these two players? Can you find another example where a team in a Championship window took on over $60 M in dead cap space? How did that retoolling workout for Favre and Rodgers? Best player of recent note was Davante Adams and they traded him on the tag. Again draft pcik compensation and no dead cap hit. You are talking about cutting multiple players with millions in dead cap with zero return. It's just not going to happen. Mahomes contract was restructured to get it to 35M bc you know he’s staying and the same thing can be done with Allen. You can get some compensation back for Diggs in trade and designate Von Post June 1, so it’s 45M this year and YES, I am saying I would do it. The way this team is built, it’s not good enough to win it all and that’s not good enough. BTW, last I checked, Packers still out pace the Bills in SB victories and that’s literally all that matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 2 hours ago, DCofNC said: Mahomes contract was restructured to get it to 35M bc you know he’s staying and the same thing can be done with Allen. You can get some compensation back for Diggs in trade and designate Von Post June 1, so it’s 45M this year and YES, I am saying I would do it. The way this team is built, it’s not good enough to win it all and that’s not good enough. BTW, last I checked, Packers still out pace the Bills in SB victories and that’s literally all that matters. Well we agree on one thing. SB victories is all that matter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 20 hours ago, Billl said: This is the crux of the matter right here. A front office is always serving two masters. They are trying to win a Superbowl, but they're also trying to keep their jobs. If you believe, as I do, that the best path to a championship is to rip off the band-aid now, take your lumps in 2024, and target 2025 and beyond, the it's a question of whether McBeane feel they have enough job security to survive a 7-10 type season. To me, Beane is acting more like a guy who would rather continuing to kick the can down the road for as long as he can win 10 games and make the playoffs rather than someone who is singularly focused on winning a championship. It's why I think this board directs too much blame at McDermott and not enough at Beane. It's not just cap management, either. Even the draft picks have been safe lately. A 24 year old TE in the first round and interior OL in the second are solid pieces, but they're relatively high floor, low ceiling picks. They're not the type you take when your mentality is "superstar or bust". They're the type you target when you feel that you've got enough firepower on the roster already and need to supplement them with quality supporting pieces. I agree with this. My only quibble is I defend them a bit on last year's draft. Because as a draft, it pretty much sucked. I was fine with taking a profit from last year's draft. I am almost always a "take shots at ceiling at premium positions" guy - especially round 1. But I said even going into the draft last year that I would take a softer view on non-premium position picks if they went a bit safe because I felt and still feel a lot of teams will get 4 years down the road from the 2023 NFL Draft and have zero starters from that class. I would hope and expect Beane to go back to his bigger swing on premium position traits approach in 2024. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_In_NH Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 20 hours ago, ddaryl said: rip the bandaid off, I agree. Salary Cap Gymnastics can work for a couple of years but at some point you have to reset This is where I am also, I think the Bills overall odds of winning don't change that much with or without Diggs and Miller. However I don't see the team doing this. The benefit is not 2024 or even 2025 but it allows you to reload with younger talent and get healthy cap wise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 4 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said: This is where I am also, I think the Bills overall odds of winning don't change that much with or without Diggs and Miller. However I don't see the team doing this. The benefit is not 2024 or even 2025 but it allows you to reload with younger talent and get healthy cap wise. I'd rip the band aid off with Miller. I'd keep Stef one more year, because that is the sensible way to play it if you want to eat pain this year and free yourself up next year as long as you do not (and I wouldn't) press the restructure button which allows them to save money this year with him but costs more next year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uticaclub Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 18 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said: Except I really don't think you do. If you cut all those people you mentioned you are looking at tens of millions of dead cap money in one year. You still need to put together a 53 person roster and their are minimum spending numbers per season of real money. You think Allen would stay if they tanked an entire season? Would McDermott stay? Do you think the fans would put up with a purposeful nonplayoff season? What you are suggesting is absolute lunacy. When teams shed contacts it is because they are already terrible like Beane did in year 2 of this regime. No team in NFL history has ever tanked a season with a franchise QB. You can't be taken seriously posting stuff like this. Cutting even one of these guys with massive dead cap hits is untenable. We were two or three plays away from a Lombardi. We have ten draft picks. Even with McDermott they will compete for a SuperBowl with just a few roster tweaks. Now next year they can make some of the moves you suggest. The only decent player on his rookie contract that would be up for an extension would be Rousseau. And they can let him walk after his fifth year. He is nothing special. They will be able to walk away from Poyer, Diggs, Knox, Dawkins, and Miller after this upcoming season if they want to with or without some post June 1 designations. I'm not saying I agree with that but they become realistic options. We were two or three plays away from missing the playoffs completely. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: I'd rip the band aid off with Miller. I'd keep Stef one more year, because that is the sensible way to play it if you want to eat pain this year and free yourself up next year as long as you do not (and I wouldn't) press the restructure button which allows them to save money this year with him but costs more next year. No way I’m restructuring Diggs. 16 catches for 140 yards with zero TD’s on 35 targets in our last 4 playoff losses. We need a #1 WR to get over the hump. I’d much prefer moving on altogether and bring in Mike Evans. The Chiefs and Bengals have too many of their own guys to sign. Playing with Josh is Evans best option. At a minimum, get Diggs, White, and Von off the books this year and spread the dead cap over 2 years while we still have a plethora of good young starters on rookie deals like Benford, Bernard, Rousseau, Kincaid, Shakir, Cook, Cyrus, and Brown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 On 2/19/2024 at 1:42 PM, Virgil said: I don’t get this. Didn’t he sign a one year deal? How is there a cap hit this year? The only thing i can think of is that they gave him a signing bonus and that pushed it to this season, I heard the guys on 1 Bills live that because he met his incentive of getting to double digit sacks he made more money so maybe with that it pushed it to this coming season . But to be truthful i don't have a clue ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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