Does the Bills Fan Base Need to Cut Miller Some Slack?

[L Ron Burgundy]

Yes.  Hopefully we regains form.  He's old though it may not happen. 

[Returntoglory]

2 hours ago, mjt328 said:

 

No you can't.

But there are definitely red flags that make certain players riskier, such as age and previous injury history.

 

Since Von Miller's first ACL tear was 10 years prior, it's probably not fair to count that against him.  But he was 33 years old at the time of his signing.  If there wasn't an increased risk of injury, there was at least some risk of him suffering from normal decline at pretty much at any point.

 

Personally, I don't blame Brandon Beane for taking a swing.  After the 13 seconds game, he felt Miller was the missing piece to our Super Bowl run.  And there were points in 2022 that his move looked absolutely genius.  But I also understand the critics, because it was a free agent signing that absolutely came with major risks.  And at the end of the day, we ended up getting burned.  Miller was unable to finish the 2022 season, and it's fair to question if he will ever regain his form.

 

Good points BUT Von was playing at a very high level prior to his injury. Was at a near Pro Bowl level at that. 

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, frostbitmic said:

Part of the griping is because of his own doing. By saying that it was a "minor knee injury" and he'd be ready to go by the start of the season, it gave fans hope. Now here we are at the end of the season and he's still not ready judging by his below Boogie level of play.

 

Griping about his contract was justified day one ... I get that it was a final piece to the puzzle move, but it didn't work out that way. The lesson to be learned is that this is a game for 20 year olds unless you're a QB ... don't back up the Brinks truck to a non QB in his mid 30's.

 

It'll be a shame to lose Epenesa, a young player on the ascent because they're overpaying a former star on the mend.

 

I wanted the Bills to focus on offense in the 2022 offseason but you people constantly throwing yourselves over the Miller contract really take it over the top.    He was tremendous, All-Pro level performer in 2022 and then a late season ACL injury(which are not necessarily age related) pretty much took him out for this season.   Maybe if he were younger he bounces back quicker but every surgery and recovery is different.   Bradley Chubb partially tore an ACL late in 2020 season at age 24 and had a terrible, sackless 2021 despite being 25.    

 

Miller's total cap hit would be 3 years at $17.5M per year when they can cut him after next season.    Painful but he WAS panning out prior to a random serious injury.  It's not and never was a top of the market DE contract.   

[BigDingus]

Of course. What did Rams fans think in 2021 when he had a handful of sacks during the regular season, only to come alive in the playoffs & Super Bowl? 

 

Didn't Bills fans last year say they just wanted him to be healthy come playoff time? If there's any chance for him to be the difference maker we want, he needs to get play time through the end of the season.

 

I agree that he hasn't done much since returning, but this is the final stretch where we need him most. If he's still not a factor, then sure, sound the alarm.

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Sex?  I'm told there is physical evidence that Miller has had very intimate relations with the victim in the past in the form of at least 3 pregnancies........and she used to have a pretty physical job swinging on poles as a sex worker prior to getting with Miller.    So maybe their idea of normal contact is not the same as yours.  

 

Bottom line........nobody but those 2 really knows what the hell happened.   You can pretend to know all you want............you still don't.   

 

 

 

So she has rough consensual sex with him, then calls the police to report a DV incident (with Von Miller fleeing the home after the call).......and then she refuses to cooperate with the investigation ?

 

Theoretically possible I guess, but I would not call it plausible.  

[BADOLBILZ]

2 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

So she has rough consensual sex with him, then calls the police to report a DV incident (with Von Miller fleeing the home after the call).......and then she refuses to cooperate with the investigation ?

 

Theoretically possible I guess, but I would not call it plausible.  

 

Why is that the only scenario?

 

And why is it not "plausible" that she was being irrational, punitive or untruthful?   And why does Miller leaving the home have to be "fleeing" because she called the cops and not "walking away" from an argument and getting the cops called on him because of it?

 

Be honest.........is your perspective because your ex-stripper, multiple-rich-athlete-dating baby momma' was always delightful whenever she was pregnant and angered about not getting something she wanted from you?  And because you would never walk away from an argument with a significant other to diffuse the situation? 

 

And why was this poor girl so nice to you if you weren't psychologically manipulating and/or grooming her from a young age?  

 

I don't know about you, DaBillsDABillsDaBills.....

 

Maybe you are a good guy.......but it just doesn't seem plausible as I am piecing this all together.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

Dude's worked his arse off to get back.  Can't ever fault someone who's trying their best.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Mr. Wonderful

[Beck Water]

6 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Sex?  I'm told there is physical evidence that Miller has had very intimate relations with the victim in the past in the form of at least 3 pregnancies........and she used to have a pretty physical job swinging on poles as a sex worker prior to getting with Miller.    So maybe their idea of normal contact is not the same as yours.  

 

Bottom line........nobody but those 2 really knows what the hell happened.   You can pretend to know all you want............you still don't.  

 

I tend to respect @Bill from NYC point in another thread, that very likely the responding police officers have a pretty good sense for "what the hell happened". 

 

Unless they were sworn in the day before, it probably was far from their "first rodeo" and they've seen it all multiple times

[billsfan89]

4 hours ago, BigDingus said:

Of course. What did Rams fans think in 2021 when he had a handful of sacks during the regular season, only to come alive in the playoffs & Super Bowl? 

 

Didn't Bills fans last year say they just wanted him to be healthy come playoff time? If there's any chance for him to be the difference maker we want, he needs to get play time through the end of the season.

 

I agree that he hasn't done much since returning, but this is the final stretch where we need him most. If he's still not a factor, then sure, sound the alarm.

 

Miller did have 5 sacks in 8 games for the Rams in 2021. That's a 10 sack year in the 16 game season pace. So Von was still productive for the Rams in the regular season. Von of course came alive in the playoffs where he had a sack in each of their first two playoff games plus a pair of sacks in the Super Bowl. 

 

My hope is that the rust continues to fall off and that hopefully during a deep playoff run he is able to just make a few plays, I think having a two time champion and a SB MVP on the roster still has a lot of value. 

[Doc Brown]

2 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Miller did have 5 sacks in 8 games for the Rams in 2021. That's a 10 sack year in the 16 game season pace. So Von was still productive for the Rams in the regular season. Von of course came alive in the playoffs where he had a sack in each of their first two playoff games plus a pair of sacks in the Super Bowl. 

 

My hope is that the rust continues to fall off and that hopefully during a deep playoff run he is able to just make a few plays, I think having a two time champion and a SB MVP on the roster still has a lot of value. 

He had 4.5 sacks before that though with the Broncos that same season in seven games before getting traded and a 85.6 pff grade.  Right now he has zero sacks and a 44.4 pff grade.  There's nothing to suggest he's going to regain his old form and is a liability,

[GunnerBill]

Leaving aside the off-field which I am not getting embroiled in there are two questions here:

 

1. What is the right play for the rest of this season? 

 

I think it is to keep Von at around a third of the defensive snaps simply as a rotational option to give Floyd, AJE and Rousseau a blow. Shaq has that 4th DE role on early downs, Von has it on passing downs. But ultimately game on the line situations I'd want AJ and Floyd as the guys out there rushing. I appreciate there is an option to sit Von down altogether and throw Kingsley Jonathan out there but such an inexperienced, raw, football player in big moments would worry me and it would worry the top brass. We can talk should they have go him more run earlier so that he was somewhat ready for that spot now, but they didn't and it is what it is. 

 

2. What is the right play for next season?

 

The reality is he isn't tradeable so it is a clear decision between keep or cut. If they are cutting him they are designating it as a post 1 June cut for relatively obvious reasons, to cut him without that designation means he carries a $32.5m dead cap hit in 2024 and actually costs about $8.5m MORE on next year's cap than if he stayed. The post 1 June cut would result in a dead cap hit in 2024 of $17m, but a cap SAVING compared to him being on the team, of $6.8m. It also carries a cap hit of $15m for 2025. HOWEVER, that dead cap would exist if, as was originally envisaged, he played 3 years and was then cut. So I have to think the Bills have been planning for that $15m dead cap hit to exist ever since they signed Von. So all they really lose by cutting him a year early in that sense is the ability to spread the $15m over two years rather than it all escalate onto the 2025 cap. Basically if you are still following this at home the question is whether you think the almost $7m in cap space for a team with some work to do and a slight loss of 2025/2026 cap flexibility over the second half of the dead money is worth cutting a player who is paid like a difference maker and at the moment is no more than a semi-functional backup. 

 

 

My gut tells me unless Von suddenly becomes Von in the next 2 weeks (and hopefully playoff run) he is done with the Bills after this season. 

[ProcessTruster]

He largely admitted yesterday that the knee isn't right just yet, so he's at pretty much the stage Tre White was last year... back but not really back.   More support for the history of ACL tears ruining the season of the injury AND the next season.   Tough call for Beane and Co. in the offseason.   Will Von be old Von next season or semi functional Von next season?   What are the alternatives?   Edge rushers are hard to find and very very expensive

[Matt_In_NH]

Does the Bills Fan Base Need to Cut Miller Some Slack?!

 

FIFY

[BADOLBILZ]

10 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I tend to respect @Bill from NYC point in another thread, that very likely the responding police officers have a pretty good sense for "what the hell happened". 

 

Unless they were sworn in the day before, it probably was far from their "first rodeo" and they've seen it all multiple times

 

 

"Pretty good sense" and "know for sure" are not the same thing, right?  

 

And right now Miller hasn't caught a case.........so perhaps there is actually reasonable doubt about her initial and later recanted story.  

 

But I'd hate to interrupt a good figurative lynching with common sense.  

[Einstein]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

option to sit Von down altogether and throw Kingsley Jonathan out there but such an inexperienced, raw, football player in big moments would worry me and it would worry the top brass.

 

This is the option I would choose.

 

The reason I am not worried about the inexperienced raw Jonathan is because Von is practically non-existent at this moment. Its like playing 10 vs 11 with him on the field. So unless Jonathan did something monumentally dumb (like a personal foul at the worst moment), I simply see no reason to have Von on the field.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

This is the option I would choose.

 

The reason I am not worried about the inexperienced raw Jonathan is because Von is practically non-existent at this moment. Its like playing 10 vs 11 with him on the field. So unless Jonathan did something monumentally dumb (like a personal foul at the worst moment), I simply see no reason to have Von on the field.

 

Hmm. I mean he has done some monumentally dumb things in his time. Lining up in the wrong spots. It is that level of basics that I am not sure they trust him with. And to be honest nor would I. Again, had they given him some more run earlier in the year, fair enough. But having not I wouldn't be chucking him out there now.

[LabattBlue]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

2. What is the right play for next season?

 

The reality is he isn't tradeable so it is a clear decision between keep or cut. If they are cutting him they are designating it as a post 1 June cut for relatively obvious reasons, to cut him without that designation means he carries a $32.5m dead cap hit in 2024 and actually costs about $8.5m MORE on next year's cap than if he stayed. The post 1 June cut would result in a dead cap hit in 2024 of $17m, but a cap SAVING compared to him being on the team, of $6.8m. It also carries a cap hit of $15m for 2025. HOWEVER, that dead cap would exist if, as was originally envisaged, he played 3 years and was then cut. So I have to think the Bills have been planning for that $15m dead cap hit to exist ever since they signed Von. So all they really lose by cutting him a year early in that sense is the ability to spread the $15m over two years rather than it all escalate onto the 2025 cap. Basically if you are still following this at home the question is whether you think the almost $7m in cap space for a team with some work to do and a slight loss of 2025/2026 cap flexibility over the second half of the dead money is worth cutting a player who is paid like a difference maker and at the moment is no more than a semi-functional backup. 

 

 

My gut tells me unless Von suddenly becomes Von in the next 2 weeks (and hopefully playoff run) he is done with the Bills after this season. 

I am 100% behind this option!!!  Admit he is done as a Bill, take the dead cap hit, and move on from this woman beater.

[Sierra Foothills]

On 12/28/2023 at 6:16 AM, NewEra said:

Those that hate him for signing the contract or because he was injured and hasn’t come back to form…..well, those people are a different story. 
 

Hate Beane for the contract.

 

Hate McD for playing him.

 

Hate Von for his off field stuff.

 

Just don’t hate him because he hasn’t lived up to his contract due to injury. 

 

Exactly.

 

On 12/28/2023 at 7:13 AM, Utah John said:

The Bills should have left him on IR the entire season.  I guress they thought he'd play himself into game shape.  Which is crazy since they see him every day in practice and know what he can and can't do.

 

Don't you think the fact they see him in practice should give them the benefit of the doubt?

 

20 hours ago, Returntoglory said:

There is a HUGE mental aspect of ACL surgery and recovery. You are very cautious and at times, mentally hesitant when it comes to putting stress or making certain moves with the affected leg.

When we signed Von, his play before the injury was what we were hoping for. 

I feel once playoff time comes, he will be 80-90%.

 

The bolded is a point I made upthread. The biggest hurdle for Von Miller is mental and there's no telling when he might cross that threshold of confidence.

 

18 hours ago, mjt328 said:

Coaches have the ability to watch Von Miller during practice, and see how he's progressing.  I don't understand the point of putting him into live game action, when they know the man can't even turn the corner.  Let him run around tackling dummies 30-40 extra times during the week, until you know he's ready to actually make an impact.

 

This week he got more snaps than Leonard Floyd, Shaq Lawson and Kingsley Jonathan.  I just don't understand why.

 

I don't think that practice reps are going to get Miller back to where we all want him to be and obviously the Bills feel the same way.

 

I think fans second-guessing the Bills recovery plan for Miller is silly.

 

 

[billsfan89]

10 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

He had 4.5 sacks before that though with the Broncos that same season in seven games before getting traded and a 85.6 pff grade.  Right now he has zero sacks and a 44.4 pff grade.  There's nothing to suggest he's going to regain his old form and is a liability,

I think Von has looked better since the bye but he still is far from where he needs to be, if/when the Bills make the playoffs the first game would be mid-January which would give Von 2.5 more weeks may or may not make a difference but it still is possible he can continue to make strides and at the very least be a player worthy of rotational snaps.