The Athletic: Dorsey's first 25 games as OC equal to Daboll's last 25

[uticaclub]

You are comparing Josh's rookie year to now? The Athletic is trash

[Doc Brown]

27 minutes ago, uticaclub said:

You are comparing Josh's rookie year to now? The Athletic is trash

They compared Daboll's last 25 games to Dorsey's first 25 games.  Read the article.

 

[HappyDays]

13 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

This is basically saying the Bills offense are not capable of winning shoot outs.

 

Our offense absolutely isn't built for shootouts IMO. Shootouts require explosive plays, not ball control and trying to get into manageable 3rd downs. We have no YAC specialists, no deep catch specialists, very few explosive runs. A lot of our TD drives are 10+ plays long which requires perfect execution more often than not. That is not a shootout offense.

 

If you look at the overall investment of draft picks and free agency spending over the past couple years, our team in theory should be built on the defense and special teams making big plays and winning the field position battle while our offense slowly builds a lead before piling on at the end. That's the style of complementary football that won us blowouts in weeks 2-4. Since then the defense has fallen off a cliff and the clearly undermanned offense just isn't built to go on non-stop 75+ yard TD drives and build up enough of a lead to let the defense off the hook at the end.

 

Our team is built to win games like the Chiefs are winning games this year, but it just isn't happening that way.

[Doc Brown]

12 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Our team is built to win games like the Chiefs are winning games this year, but it just isn't happening that way.

Injuries.  We saw what this team could be in that Miami game.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

7 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Injuries.  We saw what this team could be in that Miami game.

Injuries certainly explain the defensive woes. 

[hondo in seattle]

On 11/9/2023 at 6:04 AM, SoonerBillsFan said:

See this is why I ignore stats.  We have great stats against ****teams and **** stats against good teams and can't win most big games. 

 

McDermott has a losing record still in the playoffs.

Why though?  Why doesn't he tell Sean to pound sand and just do what he wants?  McDermott going to bench Josh?  Yeah I really want to see that lol.  

 

I feel there is something there where Sean has something over Josh to be able to force him to play the way Sean wants 

 

Yep.  McD at 4-5 is one game under .500 in the playoffs.  

 

Andy Reid had a losing record during his first 20 years as a head coach, too.  It doesn't mean he was a bad coach.  Only the very best teams with the best rosters and coaching staffs get to the playoffs.  Every playoff game is, more or less, a tossup.  Even now, having had an elite roster over the past few years, Reid is only .579.   

 

There are a few standout coaches in history who have won over 60% of their playoff games but many good coaches - including ones with rings - hover around the .500 mark.  

 

Of course, I want Sean to do better.  But I'll take his 4-5 record over the 0-0 record of his predecessors.  

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Yep.  McD at 4-5 is one game under .500 in the playoffs.  

 

Andy Reid had a losing record during his first 20 years as a head coach, too.  It doesn't mean he was a bad coach.  Only the very best teams with the best rosters and coaching staffs get to the playoffs.  Every playoff game is, more or less, a tossup.  Even now, having had an elite roster over the past few years, Reid is only .579.   

 

There are a few standout coaches in history who have won over 60% of their playoff games but many good coaches - including ones with rings - hover around the .500 mark.  

 

Of course, I want Sean to do better.  But I'll take his 4-5 record over the 0-0 record of his predecessors.  

His predecessor Rex Ryan is actually 4-2 in the postseason 

 

w Mark Sanchez at QB no less 😂😂

[Since1981]

I’m calling BS!!

 AI, analytics, Blogger, wannabe, gambling data….

 

Bills O does not pass the eye test (or smell test)

Edited November 11, 2023 by Since1981

[Since1981]

22 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Injuries.  We saw what this team could be in that Miami game.

Agree. However, if we had a WR2, we win as Bills lost 3 of last 5, by 1 score

[SoonerBillsFan]

31 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Yep.  McD at 4-5 is one game under .500 in the playoffs.  

 

Andy Reid had a losing record during his first 20 years as a head coach, too.  It doesn't mean he was a bad coach.  Only the very best teams with the best rosters and coaching staffs get to the playoffs.  Every playoff game is, more or less, a tossup.  Even now, having had an elite roster over the past few years, Reid is only .579.   

 

There are a few standout coaches in history who have won over 60% of their playoff games but many good coaches - including ones with rings - hover around the .500 mark.  

 

Of course, I want Sean to do better.  But I'll take his 4-5 record over the 0-0 record of his predecessors.  

Over the record of his  predecessors?  Who knows what their record would have been if they had Allen?  What would seans be without Allen?  What would an offensive minded HC's be after he replaced Sean while having Allen.

 

We can play this game all day, but it come to an end with this... we aren't progressing, we are regressing with Sean.  And I don't know of many, if totally honest, feel we are winning a superbowl with him as HC.

 

Best guy to turn a floundering team around? Absolutely.  Is he the right guy to get us to the next level?  No, I don't believe so.

 

Good is the enemy of great, and he is good at best, not great.

[BigAl2526]

It is not a fair comparison.  Daboll had to deal with a very raw rookie Josh Allen.  His first 25 games were heavily affected statistically by Allen's lack of development.  I am not among those calling for the head of Dorsey, at least not yet.  He does need to solve the offense's recent lack of dynamism though, and quickly.  I think the tools to do so are present on the team now,

[LABILLBACKER]

On 11/9/2023 at 6:15 AM, finn said:

Agreed. He's not a normal QB. He's more like Elway and Young than Brady and Manning, and I'm concerned that Dorsey and McDermott are trying to make him something he's not. Young once said that when he was playing in the old USFL, he would tell his center to snap the ball over his head once in a while just because he thrived off of broken plays. Allen is the same way. No one is better, in fact. Amazing improvisor, howitzer arm, great vision and anticipation, fantastic runner, big frame, surprising speed...He has the whole package. 

 

But it seems McDermott especially wants a pocket passer. Allen is trying to comply, but he's frustrated by the limitations. The fire isn't there anymore, at least not consistently. I say release the Kraken. Make this offense literally unpredictable. Go on fourth down from everywhere, fake punts and kicks, mix in gimmick plays, reverses, direct RB snaps... Tap into Allen's creativity and let him have fun. In fact, let him call some plays on occasion, not just audibles, either. 

 

I'm here to say that Allen has the potential to be the best QB in NFL history, the real GOAT. But he's got to be freed from the Lilliputians that have him tied to the ground. 

You absolutely cannot force Josh to be someone he's not.  It will prove to be a disaster.  Because of his over hyped performance against the Jets, this staff is egregiously trying to over correct. Which in turn screws with Josh's psyche.  It can't be anymore obvious.  Screw McDermott and his perception of the kind of qb he wants.  He doesn't know the first thing about offense.  Daboll had it right and that's why they locked horns.

[Doc Brown]

7 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

You absolutely cannot force Josh to be someone he's not.  It will prove to be a disaster.  Because of his over hyped performance against the Jets, this staff is egregiously trying to over correct. Which in turn screws with Josh's psyche.  It can't be anymore obvious.  Screw McDermott and his perception of the kind of qb he wants.  He doesn't know the first thing about offense.  Daboll had it right and that's why they locked horns.

I think they realized this after the Giants game where we only put up 14 points against a decrepit roster.  The last three games he's back to around where he was last year in terms of rushing attempts and production.  Also, if Josh's psyche is that fragile there's no way we're ever winning a Super Bowl with him.  It's not. 

[hondo in seattle]

3 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

His predecessor Rex Ryan is actually 4-2 in the postseason 

 

w Mark Sanchez at QB no less 😂😂

 

Obviously, I was talking about their records with the Bills.

But that is an interesting point.  Rex has a buffoonish reputation yet he did that.  

[hondo in seattle]

2 hours ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Over the record of his  predecessors?  Who knows what their record would have been if they had Allen?  What would seans be without Allen?  What would an offensive minded HC's be after he replaced Sean while having Allen.

 

We can play this game all day, but it come to an end with this... we aren't progressing, we are regressing with Sean.  And I don't know of many, if totally honest, feel we are winning a superbowl with him as HC.

 

Best guy to turn a floundering team around? Absolutely.  Is he the right guy to get us to the next level?  No, I don't believe so.

 

Good is the enemy of great, and he is good at best, not great.

 

I get the whole good is the enemy of great argument but I'm not sure it applies.

 

Since McD has been here, I have never once felt we had the best roster in the AFC.  So why would we expect a Super Bowl appearance, let alone a win.  The playoffs are a brutal gauntlet.  Getting through it requires a strong roster, a strong coaching staff, good health, and a little bit of luck.  We haven't had all that.  

 

When I look back on McD's tenure, each season he either achieves to the level of the roster or he over-achieves.  Getting us to the playoffs in his first year was a heck of an accomplishment.  The six wins the following season was also a great accomplishment considering we had the lowest cap spending on active players in the league and arguably the worst roster (that was the year Beane started cleaning house).   Last year, given our injuries, we didn't have the roster of a 13-3 team but McD produced 13 wins anyway.  This is the first season when I see McD is winning fewer games than he ought to with the roster he has.  

 

I tend to be in favor of the Steelers model: Find a good coach and stick with him.  They've only had 3 head coaches in the past 50+ years.  That continuity has all sorts of positive consequences.  Position coaches and coordinators want to work for a stable organization.  Players want to play for a stable organization.  With stability, the staff learns from its mistakes and corrects them.  Lessons learned are retained within the organization.  Noll, Cowher, and Tomlin weren't great strategists.  But, with the steadfast support of ownership, they earned six Lombardis.  Over the same time, our reactive approach has netted zero.  

[oldmanfan]

3 hours ago, BigAl2526 said:

It is not a fair comparison.  Daboll had to deal with a very raw rookie Josh Allen.  His first 25 games were heavily affected statistically by Allen's lack of development.  I am not among those calling for the head of Dorsey, at least not yet.  He does need to solve the offense's recent lack of dynamism though, and quickly.  I think the tools to do so are present on the team now,

People honestly need to read.  They compared Daboll’s LAST 25 games to Dorsey’s FIRST 25 games.

3 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

You absolutely cannot force Josh to be someone he's not.  It will prove to be a disaster.  Because of his over hyped performance against the Jets, this staff is egregiously trying to over correct. Which in turn screws with Josh's psyche.  It can't be anymore obvious.  Screw McDermott and his perception of the kind of qb he wants.  He doesn't know the first thing about offense.  Daboll had it right and that's why they locked horns.

Tom Brady said he wanted to be coached hard.  Allen doesn’t get an exemption card from being coached.  And you can certainly point out to him easier throws he can take without forcing him to be something he’s not.

 

 

[finn]

6 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

You absolutely cannot force Josh to be someone he's not.  It will prove to be a disaster.  Because of his over hyped performance against the Jets, this staff is egregiously trying to over correct. Which in turn screws with Josh's psyche.  It can't be anymore obvious.  Screw McDermott and his perception of the kind of qb he wants.  He doesn't know the first thing about offense.  Daboll had it right and that's why they locked horns.

I wonder if that's what was behind McDermott's "complementary football" comment. I.e., "I told Dorsey to stop to slow down the [effective] tempo because you'll be scoring too fast and my defense will get tired." As a new coordinator, Dorsey might not be able to tell him to f- off. Daboll could, to a degree at least. 

[SoonerBillsFan]

4 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

I get the whole good is the enemy of great argument but I'm not sure it applies.

 

Since McD has been here, I have never once felt we had the best roster in the AFC.  So why would we expect a Super Bowl appearance, let alone a win.  The playoffs are a brutal gauntlet.  Getting through it requires a strong roster, a strong coaching staff, good health, and a little bit of luck.  We haven't had all that.  

 

When I look back on McD's tenure, each season he either achieves to the level of the roster or he over-achieves.  Getting us to the playoffs in his first year was a heck of an accomplishment.  The six wins the following season was also a great accomplishment considering we had the lowest cap spending on active players in the league and arguably the worst roster (that was the year Beane started cleaning house).   Last year, given our injuries, we didn't have the roster of a 13-3 team but McD produced 13 wins anyway.  This is the first season when I see McD is winning fewer games than he ought to with the roster he has.  

 

I tend to be in favor of the Steelers model: Find a good coach and stick with him.  They've only had 3 head coaches in the past 50+ years.  That continuity has all sorts of positive consequences.  Position coaches and coordinators want to work for a stable organization.  Players want to play for a stable organization.  With stability, the staff learns from its mistakes and corrects them.  Lessons learned are retained within the organization.  Noll, Cowher, and Tomlin weren't great strategists.  But, with the steadfast support of ownership, they earned six Lombardis.  Over the same time, our reactive approach has netted zero.  

They have had 3 HC because of superbowl wins.  Sean had had support behind measure from the Pegulas and a top 3 QB.

 

The man is not the answer, he is Schottenheimer and Marvin Lewis the 2nd.  I pray Terry figures this out soon as we are wasting, Josh Allen's youth.

[BobbyC81]

On 11/9/2023 at 6:11 AM, 78thealltimegreat said:

I think a major problem is what do the bills want? What type of offense do they want to play? Do they want a quick strike offense or one that will grind out first downs. Until last Sunday I thought they ran it reasonably well but like anything else they reverted to Josh being the whole offense again. 
McDermott and Dorsey need to sit down and figure out once and for all ok this is what I want and go from there.

The best way, I hate to say, is the Belichick Way.  Come up with game plans for each opponent, trying to take advantage of their weaknesses and take away their strengths. I’m 

[SirAndrew]

I don’t love Dorsey, but Daboll is insanely overrated around here. He could be ridiculous in outsmarting himself, but Allen was playing better, and we had guys like Beasley, Brown, and Sanders who could actually catch a football. 

9 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Yep.  McD at 4-5 is one game under .500 in the playoffs.  

 

Andy Reid had a losing record during his first 20 years as a head coach, too.  It doesn't mean he was a bad coach.  Only the very best teams with the best rosters and coaching staffs get to the playoffs.  Every playoff game is, more or less, a tossup.  Even now, having had an elite roster over the past few years, Reid is only .579.   

 

There are a few standout coaches in history who have won over 60% of their playoff games but many good coaches - including ones with rings - hover around the .500 mark.  

 

Of course, I want Sean to do better.  But I'll take his 4-5 record over the 0-0 record of his predecessors.  

That’s fair, but in hindsight I think Reid’s record with McNabb was quite impressive. Andy Reid might have made Donovan McNabb a much better QB than he actually was. It’s also fair to point out that Reid made a Super Bowl appearance his sixth season in Philly, while McDermott is finding ways to lose with Josh Allen at QB in his seventh season as coach. I think McDermott is a really good coach, but not many coaches have Allen either. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by SirAndrew