Update: All -22 stuff Joe Marino Locked on Bills, Now Cover 1 w/ play breakdowns

[PBF81]

39 minutes ago, MJS said:

I also think he stops reading the defense and goes on instinct when he is stressed. You have to be calm and calculated to read a defense. He is reacting, not reading or diagnosing. He isn’t looking for short passes because his instincts don't take him there. He gets blinders and doesn't see those anymore.

 

I don't know about that.  Last season he did the same, often in situations where there wasn't any stress or shouldn't have been, but it worked out OK.  But what made me give it thought is that at times our D was on the field longer and more often than it should have been.  Sometimes taking 13 plays and 8 minutes to score is better than a 3-play big-play drive consuming 1:15, especially when you're winning.  

 

Either way, worked out or not, it was so concerning last season that I had resolved this season to put together a running montage video of every pass play where Allen took a crack going deep when much better and higher-percentage options short, that also would have logged good gains without any risks of INTs or even 1st-Downs, which is exactly why they call them high-percentage passes/plays.  They have a much greater chance of resulting in a positive outcome.  It appears that that's not going to be necessary.  Seems that many are doing that.  I did document all those plays from this past game in an earlier thread, at least those that were available in the initial highlights video that came out hours after the game.  

 

Everyone's finally catching on.  But it's important to note those even when he plays well and the deep passes are working.  Especially then he shouldn't be taking any unnecessary risks.  

 

Also, here's the thing, on those plays those guys underneath, sometimes OTM but more typically in the flats, are open for a reason.  Opposing DCs have seemingly instructed their players that Allen's typically not going there, and typically he doesn't, so don't bother covering them tightly.  

 

If he did, presumably they'd start covering there and other receivers would be open or more open downfield.  He'd be helping himself in that way.  

 

That would be what I'd tell him as a coach.  Are Dorsey or McD approaching it that way?  Or they merely allowing Josh to do whatever he wants to do.  

 

And again, if they did tell him that, then why aren't they harder on him for disobeying them and disregarding their coaching?  These are all rhetorical questions, just sayin'.  

 

 

[SoonerBillsFan]

40 minutes ago, BeavercreekBillsFan said:

Easy to say when you’re dumping it to tyreek and kelce with a good o line to get YAC and make life easy. When’s the last time josh could dump it off and you were confident they could break off a big run? I’ll wait. 
 

Josh is always throwing into airtight windows because our receivers suck and they get dropped immediately 

What all pros did Brady have?  Come on man.  The players are open, he just isn't taking the shots that are open.

[sunshynman]

I think we saw the same problem in the Steelers preseason game. Josh doesn't trust the Oline to keep a pocket clean. He is afraid to stand in there and take the hit. He has been injured in the pocket, not on the run. The problem I see is that coaches are saying stay in, stop running. But until he trust the oline to give him a few seconds that is hard. And he tends to want to wait for the long route to get open. Problem is the outlets are there and we could march right down the field using them.

[Low Positive]

23 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

What all pros did Brady have?  Come on man.  The players are open, he just isn't taking the shots that are open.

People always overstate this. Brady played with Troy Brown and Deion Branch early in his career. He then had Randy Moss and Dante Stallworth for that incredible stretch that included the undefeated regular season. Then he had Edelman and Gronk (and Hernandez) during his final phase in NE. He always had a great running game and the best OL in the league. In fact, he left New England to go to Tampa Bay due to their offensive weapons. Yeah, it was never Chase and Higgins, but he had weapons.

[PBF81]

44 minutes ago, sunshynman said:

I think we saw the same problem in the Steelers preseason game. Josh doesn't trust the Oline to keep a pocket clean. He is afraid to stand in there and take the hit. He has been injured in the pocket, not on the run. The problem I see is that coaches are saying stay in, stop running. But until he trust the oline to give him a few seconds that is hard. And he tends to want to wait for the long route to get open. Problem is the outlets are there and we could march right down the field using them.

 

I think that to an extent that's true, however, consider, if it is true, then wouldn't taking the much more quickly developing not to mention higher-percentage patterns/plays be a solution to that.  Standing in the pocket even longer makes less sense in those circumstances.  

 

And once he started doing that, wouldn't it then force the opposing D to start covering those players, which would take resources from deep coverages and/or the pass rush.  

 

 

[sunshynman]

4 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

I think that to an extent that's true, however, consider, if it is true, then wouldn't taking the much more quickly developing not to mention higher-percentage patterns/plays be a solution to that.  Standing in the pocket even longer makes less sense in those circumstances.  

 

And once he started doing that, wouldn't it then force the opposing D to start covering those players, which would take resources from deep coverages and/or the pass rush.  

 

 

Yes, I agree. Which is why I say Dorsey is the wrong OC. He needs one that tells him these things directly. And Josh needs to believe they know best. Being friends with the QB coach/OC will not work, unless your Payton Manning. He was his own OC.

[SoonerBillsFan]

33 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

People always overstate this. Brady played with Troy Brown and Deion Branch early in his career. He then had Randy Moss and Dante Stallworth for that incredible stretch that included the undefeated regular season. Then he had Edelman and Gronk (and Hernandez) during his final phase in NE. He always had a great running game and the best OL in the league. In fact, he left New England to go to Tampa Bay due to their offensive weapons. Yeah, it was never Chase and Higgins, but he had weapons.

As does Josh.

[Low Positive]

Just now, SoonerBillsFan said:

As does Josh.

I agree. There were guys open underneath all game. Josh just forced the ball downfield in the second half. He was going for the kill shot when long drives ending in FGs would have won the game.  I worry that it's not winning that motivates him, but the dopamine hit from highlight-reel plays. 

[Scott7975]

11 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

OK, here ya go, buckle up!  LOL  

 

Alright, but this is going to be about as popular here as a tranny drag queen at a southern baptist potluck dinner. It's going to get red-x'd by a bunch of posters, I already know who some of them are. LOL

Simply put, it seems that Allen isn't being properly coached. Do I say that because I know something about how he's being coached? No. I'm purely going by circumstantial evidence, such as what I laid out above about the original hiring of Daboll followed by the promotion of Dorsey, and Allen's play, which we're all familiar with.  Again, what in either Daboll's or Dorsey's dossier qualifies them to be instructing Allen to tweak his game to expert levels? The short answer, for anyone that's honest, is nothing.

That means that anything that either did bring would be contingent upon what they've learned or done while he and they have been here.  But what's the evidence for that?  It would also seem that three seasons in, Allen simply got more comfortable and learned things by himself for the most part.  If it truly was coaching, then there wouldn't be a 10+% increase in Compl. %, and then again 50% Passing Yardage increase, and a near doubling of Passing TDs, and 20+ point increase in rating in a single season.  Coaching would be a more gradual increase.  That was largely Allen's comfort zone improvement in his third season, which is noted for QBs taking their games to another level.

It also seems illogical that Dorsey after being able to do little with Newton, all of a sudden turned Allen into what he is.  But let's say for the sake of argument that Dorsey was in fact responsible for Allen's massive leap from 2019 to 2020.  That would be incredibly impressive and we would then argue that it was masterful.  It would put Dorsey in the genius category. But then how come Allen hasn't continued to improve and in fact perhaps is even backtracking/regression somewhat, or at absolute minimum the demonstrated seeming inability to do what far less talented QBs have done, namely take advantage of what the opposing defenses give them, which even the inexperienced Wilson did on MNF, and the high-percentage passes.

The argument is that Allen's not listening to Dorsey and doing his own thing, but to that I would argue that's what got him to the level he is to begin with, not Dorsey, but then why all of a sudden would he stop listening to Dorsey if Dorsey was truly responsible for a 10+ point bump in Compl.%, nearly double the TDs, 1,500 more yards, and a 22 point bump in rating?  Only a fool would stop listening to advice at that point, and we know that Allen isn't a great fool, so clearly he can't choose the wine in front of him. ... oh, ... I digress.
 

I'm not a big fan of assigning success to people that have exceptional circumstances that pave the way for it, and amidst a dearth of any known reasons for it otherwise.  But that’s kind of what we’re expected to believe here, in Buffalo for the time being.

At the end of the day, IMO Allen isn't getting proper coaching for multiple reasons.  One, McD's more of a players coach and soft when it comes to discipline and that type of thing.  I also don't think Allen got it with Daboll either for similar reasons per above.  As to Dorsey, he and Allen seem to be buddies more than they seem to be coach and player, which wouldn't be a healthy or proper relationship if that's true, and further establishes McD's status as a players coach, and the Dorsey/Allen relationship by implication.

On a side note, Levy was a players coach as well, and that's why we couldn't win a Super Bowl, because we went up against much better tacticians, strategists, and disciplinarians.  Who thinks that Jimmy Johnson or Parcells, or even Gibbs for that matter would have put up with Kelly et al. partying the night before the game, etc. Had we had any of those three as our coach, I’m confident we’d have two Lombardis now.  All three were notably better coaches than Levy, who only excelled here in Buffalo with an all-star roster, a roster that Polian called “special” and "rare."

 

Anyway, now we get into why coaches such as Daboll and Dorsey were/are in the role.  It’s important to remember that McD was hired before anyone. There’s plenty of reason to strongly suspect that McD is a control-freak and wants ultimate control of all aspects of the team.  Who knows, but the smart money says that there was some discussion of that between McD and Pegula upon his hire.  Otherwise, why would Pegula have put the cart before the horse and hired a coach before he hired a GM, which is almost unheard of.  I can’t think of another instance in the modern NFL that that’s happened, but even if it has, it’s incredibly rare at best.

 

When we hired the coach, McD, first, I told everyone at that time to get ready and that the GM that he selects would come from Carolina also.  Was that because I thought or that the best candidate was in fact at Carolina at the time?  Hardly.  Quite the opposite in fact, the odds of that were remote.  It’s common sense that McD wasn’t about to hire someone that wouldn’t owe him and therefore be in a position to fire him if things didn’t go well after three seasons.  So he hired Beane, who IMO would never fire McD unless directed to do so by Pegula.  

 

That set the tone for the rest.  

 

Same for his coordinator hires. Frasier had a failed stint as a Head Coach in Minnesota where his defenses got progressively worse and where his offense never crossed the average mark. In his last season there it was 32nd in Scoring and 31st in Yardage.  He ran it into the ground there.

 

After that he went to Tampa as a DC again where his defense was worse than both his predecessor after arriving, as well as his successor upon leaving.  

 

What are the odds that McD thought that there was any chance that Frazier would take his place?  I’d say pretty close to zero.  Here in Buffalo there’s still questioning as to whether the D during Frazier’s tenure was more McD’s being run by Frazier, or more Frazier’s.  I’ve been wondering if McD didn’t take Frazier’s responsibilities from him because he was afraid that Pegula might fire him and promote Frazier. We’ll never know.

 

In the final analysis, Allen’s progress is being held up inadequate coaching.  How we define inadequate can be debated.

 

The other thing that is entirely possible is that Dorsey, who’s never distinguished himself in any particular way coaching in the NFL, sees Allen as his ticket to perhaps a head coaching job, but more importantly, to a positive projection of himself as a coach to the extent that he’ll be recognized as being great in that way.

 

As such, at times it seems, based upon Allen’s play, if Dorsey is really affecting it, that Dorsey is living vicariously through Allen in an attempt to re-live his collegiate greatness at QB, except on the coaching side, and he was in fact great as a QB at Miami.  We know that he's never even approached being above-average until Allen otherwise.  But that would be a mistake.

 

And again, people say hooey, that’s a lump of baloney, well then fine, but then that must mean that Dorsey isn’t getting through to Allen either, because Allen’s trying to play QB as if he’s in college, as the man among boys that he was, and throwing the ball as if our players are that much superior to the opposing defensive players.  As if he's playing for Alabama five seasons ago and prior, ... or Miami in its collegiate heyday.  Just sayin'.  

 

So that’s how I see it.  If Dorsey is getting through to Allen, then it’s poor instruction.

 

If he isn’t getting through to Allen, then perhaps we need an OC that can.  In fact, we may even need a new Head Coach as I believe is necessary if we want to get the most out of Allen.  I've got my eye on Press Taylor in Jax, although IMO, and unfortunately, the odds of McD getting canned after this season, even with a wild-card spot and another divisional (or wild-card) round loss in the playoffs, is remote.  

 

Allen performed better in some respects under Daboll as OC, but that’s not to say that it was because of Daboll.  

 

McD doesn’t have any answers/solutions to the Allen question, otherwise he’d step in. But the catch-22 is that he’ll never hire someone that can really turn Allen into the QB that we’re all hoping he’ll be.

 

Why not?

 

Think about it. McD hires an OC that comes in and takes Allen to the next level.  What happens next?

 

Right, that person becomes the next head coach because offense is more important than defense in today’s NFL, and before the team would lose him to a head coaching position elsewhere, Pegula would step in and see to it to fire McD and promote that OC.

 

That’s my take and has been for a while now.

 

 

 

 

I'll give you thumbs up. I know what it's like to leave an opinion on something and have certain select people leave a bunch of "down vote" marks and then treat you like you just spoke sacrilege and are a moron.  I don't agree with everything you said but I do with some it and have said some of it.

[PBF81]

55 minutes ago, sunshynman said:

Yes, I agree. Which is why I say Dorsey is the wrong OC. He needs one that tells him these things directly. And Josh needs to believe they know best. Being friends with the QB coach/OC will not work, unless your Payton Manning. He was his own OC.

 

All I know is that this shouldn't be that difficult to ingrain.  Allen's very bright, not a slow learner.  

 

McD's had five seasons now with Allen and this is Dorsey's 2nd.  I agree with you, and have for a while.  They're clearly not coaching properly/effectively.  

 

Here's the thing, I don't expect McD to hire someone that will get it done and take this offense and get it to do what it optimally can, for reasons that I stated in a longer answer to a question posed by another yesterday.  Namely, that if he did that, hire an OC that would turn this offense into the juggernaut that it should be, that OC instantlyl becomes a threat to replace McD.  

 

That's why so many of us see ony one solution to this seemingly never-ending problem.   

 

 

[BananaB]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

I think that to an extent that's true, however, consider, if it is true, then wouldn't taking the much more quickly developing not to mention higher-percentage patterns/plays be a solution to that.  Standing in the pocket even longer makes less sense in those circumstances.  

 

And once he started doing that, wouldn't it then force the opposing D to start covering those players, which would take resources from deep coverages and/or the pass rush.  

 

 

It’s hard against the Jets because they pressure us without blitzing and are covering more of the field. Add in penalties and the fact we get little from our run game it makes those short routes more unlikely to get the first downs. We ain’t a team that gets much yac. Is that the QB or the play design. I don’t examine every play like some but when I see guys pointing out the underneath players being open in pics, they look like they are standing still with whole body facing the qb. A lot of the times it looks like a defender near by would shut the WR down once caught. That’s why I think Allen looks to his deeper routes a lot, he wants the chains to move. 

[PBF81]

25 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

I'll give you thumbs up. I know what it's like to leave an opinion on something and have certain select people leave a bunch of "down vote" marks and then treat you like you just spoke sacrilege and are a moron.  I don't agree with everything you said but I do with some it and have said some of it.

 

Thanks. 

 

Indeed.  Personally I don't care about the negative reactions.  And look, no one agrees all the time, but it's important to keep the discussions as civil as possible.  People can disagree without being disagreeable.  That's something that appears to be an issue.  

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

6 hours ago, Mango said:

 

Josh Allen was so so bad that he’s the topic of conversation for every media outlet this week. People comparing him to Carson Wentz.
 

Why don't we admit that this is the real issue here.  Bill's fans are way to sensitive about what the media, particularly the national sports media, says about us.  And yes they have been brutal about all things Allen.  You can see the venom drip down their chins as they rip Allen apart. 

 

Funny how Allen is getting ten times the grief from the sports media then Burrow or Jones are getting.  Joe threw 31 passes for 82 yards and his team lost 24 - 3.  And Danial Jones was 15/28 for 104 yards & 2 INT's including a pick 6 in losing 40 - 0!  And no TD's for either Burrow or Jones. But 95% of the national media's bile is reserved for Allen.  I find that a bit strange and you people should to.

 

 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

7 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Why don't we admit that this is the real issue here.  Bill's fans are way to sensitive about what the media, particularly the national sports media, says about us.  And yes they have been brutal about all things Allen.  You can see the venom drip down their chins as they rip Allen apart. 

 

Funny how Allen is getting ten times the grief from the sports media then Burrow or Jones are getting.  Joe threw 31 passes for 82 yards and his team lost 24 - 3.  And Danial Jones was 15/28 for 104 yards & 2 INT's including a pick 6 in losing 40 - 0!  And no TD's for either Burrow or Jones. But 95% of the national media's bile is reserved for Allen.  I find that a bit strange and you people should to.

 

 

 

It's been a national narrative since he was drafted because people hate to admit when they are wrong.  Same applies to many of the posters here, because when Josh has a bad game they come out the from all their black holes to vindicate themselves and their narrative.  All these national dudes were salivating at the chance to destroy him.  

Edited September 14, 2023 by Lieutenant Aldo Raine

[PBF81]

14 minutes ago, BananaB said:

It’s hard against the Jets because they pressure us without blitzing and are covering more of the field. Add in penalties and the fact we get little from our run game it makes those short routes more unlikely to get the first downs. We ain’t a team that gets much yac. Is that the QB or the play design. I don’t examine every play like some but when I see guys pointing out the underneath players being open in pics, they look like they are standing still with whole body facing the qb. A lot of the times it looks like a defender near by would shut the WR down once caught. That’s why I think Allen looks to his deeper routes a lot, he wants the chains to move. 

 

Yup, 27th last season in YAC.  Relatedly, we ranked 2nd in Intended Air Yards per Pass Attempt.  

 

I said in another post that I was planning on making a montage video this season of all of the plays where Allen overlooks or otherwise ignores/can't-see, etc. the underneath guys that would have gotten good gains on much safer throws, but everyone's doing that all of a sudden and the awareness has been raised.  Hopefully it'll change.  

 

Agree on the Jets.  This week should be a reprieve.  Raiders have a much more lax D but also a better O.  It'll be a better test for our D and Allen and the O should be fine, back to "normal."  

 

 

[Mango]

8 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Why don't we admit that this is the real issue here.  Bill's fans are way to sensitive about what the media, particularly the national sports media, says about us.  And yes they have been brutal about all things Allen.  You can see the venom drip down their chins as they rip Allen apart. 

 

Funny how Allen is getting ten times the grief from the sports media then Burrow or Jones are getting.  Joe threw 31 passes for 82 yards and his team lost 24 - 3.  And Danial Jones was 15/28 for 104 yards & 2 INT's including a pick 6 in losing 40 - 0!  And no TD's for either Burrow or Jones. But 95% of the national media's bile is reserved for Allen.  I find that a bit strange and you people should to.

 

 

It doesn’t bother me. Part of arriving as a real NFL team is your team being talked about. 
 

The entirety of the post wasn’t that I was upset people were saying it. It was more that Josh was so bad he is the headline.

 

Most weeks it’s a split decision. Which is how all these shows are set up. Nick Wright hates Buffalo and Skip Bayless is a Dallas homer. Half of it is choreographed. But I do take note when it’s more or less unanimous. When all the networks agree that there is enough substance to not just have to opposing views get in conflict, you know you really botched some stuff. 
 

The only next worse spot to be is irrelevant. Where nobody shirts on you. Nobody sticks up for you. You only get segments because you happen to play “insert high profile team”.

[CincyBillsFan]

12 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

OK, here ya go, buckle up!  LOL  

 

Alright, but this is going to be about as popular here as a tranny drag queen at a southern baptist potluck dinner. It's going to get red-x'd by a bunch of posters, I already know who some of them are. LOL

Simply put, it seems that Allen isn't being properly coached. Do I say that because I know something about how he's being coached? No. I'm purely going by circumstantial evidence, such as what I laid out above about the original hiring of Daboll followed by the promotion of Dorsey, and Allen's play, which we're all familiar with.  Again, what in either Daboll's or Dorsey's dossier qualifies them to be instructing Allen to tweak his game to expert levels? The short answer, for anyone that's honest, is nothing.

That means that anything that either did bring would be contingent upon what they've learned or done while he and they have been here.  But what's the evidence for that?  It would also seem that three seasons in, Allen simply got more comfortable and learned things by himself for the most part.  If it truly was coaching, then there wouldn't be a 10+% increase in Compl. %, and then again 50% Passing Yardage increase, and a near doubling of Passing TDs, and 20+ point increase in rating in a single season.  Coaching would be a more gradual increase.  That was largely Allen's comfort zone improvement in his third season, which is noted for QBs taking their games to another level.

It also seems illogical that Dorsey after being able to do little with Newton, all of a sudden turned Allen into what he is.  But let's say for the sake of argument that Dorsey was in fact responsible for Allen's massive leap from 2019 to 2020.  That would be incredibly impressive and we would then argue that it was masterful.  It would put Dorsey in the genius category. But then how come Allen hasn't continued to improve and in fact perhaps is even backtracking/regression somewhat, or at absolute minimum the demonstrated seeming inability to do what far less talented QBs have done, namely take advantage of what the opposing defenses give them, which even the inexperienced Wilson did on MNF, and the high-percentage passes.

The argument is that Allen's not listening to Dorsey and doing his own thing, but to that I would argue that's what got him to the level he is to begin with, not Dorsey, but then why all of a sudden would he stop listening to Dorsey if Dorsey was truly responsible for a 10+ point bump in Compl.%, nearly double the TDs, 1,500 more yards, and a 22 point bump in rating?  Only a fool would stop listening to advice at that point, and we know that Allen isn't a great fool, so clearly he can't choose the wine in front of him. ... oh, ... I digress.
 

I'm not a big fan of assigning success to people that have exceptional circumstances that pave the way for it, and amidst a dearth of any known reasons for it otherwise.  But that’s kind of what we’re expected to believe here, in Buffalo for the time being.

At the end of the day, IMO Allen isn't getting proper coaching for multiple reasons.  One, McD's more of a players coach and soft when it comes to discipline and that type of thing.  I also don't think Allen got it with Daboll either for similar reasons per above.  As to Dorsey, he and Allen seem to be buddies more than they seem to be coach and player, which wouldn't be a healthy or proper relationship if that's true, and further establishes McD's status as a players coach, and the Dorsey/Allen relationship by implication.

On a side note, Levy was a players coach as well, and that's why we couldn't win a Super Bowl, because we went up against much better tacticians, strategists, and disciplinarians.  Who thinks that Jimmy Johnson or Parcells, or even Gibbs for that matter would have put up with Kelly et al. partying the night before the game, etc. Had we had any of those three as our coach, I’m confident we’d have two Lombardis now.  All three were notably better coaches than Levy, who only excelled here in Buffalo with an all-star roster, a roster that Polian called “special” and "rare."

 

Anyway, now we get into why coaches such as Daboll and Dorsey were/are in the role.  It’s important to remember that McD was hired before anyone. There’s plenty of reason to strongly suspect that McD is a control-freak and wants ultimate control of all aspects of the team.  Who knows, but the smart money says that there was some discussion of that between McD and Pegula upon his hire.  Otherwise, why would Pegula have put the cart before the horse and hired a coach before he hired a GM, which is almost unheard of.  I can’t think of another instance in the modern NFL that that’s happened, but even if it has, it’s incredibly rare at best.

 

When we hired the coach, McD, first, I told everyone at that time to get ready and that the GM that he selects would come from Carolina also.  Was that because I thought or that the best candidate was in fact at Carolina at the time?  Hardly.  Quite the opposite in fact, the odds of that were remote.  It’s common sense that McD wasn’t about to hire someone that wouldn’t owe him and therefore be in a position to fire him if things didn’t go well after three seasons.  So he hired Beane, who IMO would never fire McD unless directed to do so by Pegula.  

 

That set the tone for the rest.  

 

Same for his coordinator hires. Frasier had a failed stint as a Head Coach in Minnesota where his defenses got progressively worse and where his offense never crossed the average mark. In his last season there it was 32nd in Scoring and 31st in Yardage.  He ran it into the ground there.

 

After that he went to Tampa as a DC again where his defense was worse than both his predecessor after arriving, as well as his successor upon leaving.  

 

What are the odds that McD thought that there was any chance that Frazier would take his place?  I’d say pretty close to zero.  Here in Buffalo there’s still questioning as to whether the D during Frazier’s tenure was more McD’s being run by Frazier, or more Frazier’s.  I’ve been wondering if McD didn’t take Frazier’s responsibilities from him because he was afraid that Pegula might fire him and promote Frazier. We’ll never know.

 

In the final analysis, Allen’s progress is being held up inadequate coaching.  How we define inadequate can be debated.

 

The other thing that is entirely possible is that Dorsey, who’s never distinguished himself in any particular way coaching in the NFL, sees Allen as his ticket to perhaps a head coaching job, but more importantly, to a positive projection of himself as a coach to the extent that he’ll be recognized as being great in that way.

 

As such, at times it seems, based upon Allen’s play, if Dorsey is really affecting it, that Dorsey is living vicariously through Allen in an attempt to re-live his collegiate greatness at QB, except on the coaching side, and he was in fact great as a QB at Miami.  We know that he's never even approached being above-average until Allen otherwise.  But that would be a mistake.

 

And again, people say hooey, that’s a lump of baloney, well then fine, but then that must mean that Dorsey isn’t getting through to Allen either, because Allen’s trying to play QB as if he’s in college, as the man among boys that he was, and throwing the ball as if our players are that much superior to the opposing defensive players.  As if he's playing for Alabama five seasons ago and prior, ... or Miami in its collegiate heyday.  Just sayin'.  

 

So that’s how I see it.  If Dorsey is getting through to Allen, then it’s poor instruction.

 

If he isn’t getting through to Allen, then perhaps we need an OC that can.  In fact, we may even need a new Head Coach as I believe is necessary if we want to get the most out of Allen.  I've got my eye on Press Taylor in Jax, although IMO, and unfortunately, the odds of McD getting canned after this season, even with a wild-card spot and another divisional (or wild-card) round loss in the playoffs, is remote.  

 

Allen performed better in some respects under Daboll as OC, but that’s not to say that it was because of Daboll.  

 

McD doesn’t have any answers/solutions to the Allen question, otherwise he’d step in. But the catch-22 is that he’ll never hire someone that can really turn Allen into the QB that we’re all hoping he’ll be.

 

Why not?

 

Think about it. McD hires an OC that comes in and takes Allen to the next level.  What happens next?

 

Right, that person becomes the next head coach because offense is more important than defense in today’s NFL, and before the team would lose him to a head coaching position elsewhere, Pegula would step in and see to it to fire McD and promote that OC.

 

That’s my take and has been for a while now.

 

 

 

I don't agree with everything here but a lot of it seems reasonable to me.  It is an offensive league and teams run by defensive minded coaches and GM's are falling behind.  To a degree Buffalo has been the exception to the rule but it's hard not to think that this is due almost entirely to Allen.  Because when Allen is on it doesn't matter who is coaching.  But when he's off or just average, which will happen at times, the Bills struggle.

 

I think you see something similar in LA where a defensive minded regime has held the Chargers back.  Herbert like Allen is an elite franchise QB.

 

I hate to admit it but the Dolphins have an exceptional offensive minded coach.  And their franchise has an offensive minded GM.  The difference between Tua with McDaniel and the last guy is night & day.

 

This is why I'm fascinated to see how the season goes for Russell Wilson & the Broncos with Payton as coach. If Wilson returns to form and he had an ok start against the Raiders and Denver has a potent offense then you almost have confirmation that in today's NFL you must have an offensive minded head coach & GM.

 

 

[Fan in Chicago]

4 hours ago, teef said:

i ***** just fine.

So does Josh

[CincyBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, Mango said:

It doesn’t bother me. Part of arriving as a real NFL team is your team being talked about. 
 

The entirety of the post wasn’t that I was upset people were saying it. It was more that Josh was so bad he is the headline.

 

Most weeks it’s a split decision. Which is how all these shows are set up. Nick Wright hates Buffalo and Skip Bayless is a Dallas homer. Half of it is choreographed. But I do take note when it’s more or less unanimous. When all the networks agree that there is enough substance to not just have to opposing views get in conflict, you know you really botched some stuff. 
 

The only next worse spot to be is irrelevant. Where nobody shirts on you. Nobody sticks up for you. You only get segments because you happen to play “insert high profile team”.

I get it and you're right to a point.  I don't think any of us are arguing that Allen didn't stink up the place on Monday night. He did.  But it was ONE GAME. The national sports media can get back to me after the season and playoffs.  And guess what, Allen will probably have another game or two almost as bad as the Jets game. 

 

And I find it funny that the national media after one bad game is united in crucifying Allen while they were not nearly as critical of Russell Wilson after he stunk up an entire season.  Again there always seems to be an extra dollop of venom directed at Allen from some quarters of the media.

 

As for the comparison to Carson Wentz.  Wentz had a spectacular 12 game run. Allen's run, including playoffs, was over the previous 3 full seasons.  That's 56 games.  Calling Allen "Wentz" is lazy on the part of the media.  But then what else do you expect from the Skip Bayless & Nick Wright's of the world.

 

 

 

[PBF81]

7 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I don't agree with everything here but a lot of it seems reasonable to me.  It is an offensive league and teams run by defensive minded coaches and GM's are falling behind.  To a degree Buffalo has been the exception to the rule but it's hard not to think that this is due almost entirely to Allen.  Because when Allen is on it doesn't matter who is coaching.  But when he's off or just average, which will happen at times, the Bills struggle.

 

I think you see something similar in LA where a defensive minded regime has held the Chargers back.  Herbert like Allen is an elite franchise QB.

 

I hate to admit it but the Dolphins have an exceptional offensive minded coach.  And their franchise has an offensive minded GM.  The difference between Tua with McDaniel and the last guy is night & day.

 

This is why I'm fascinated to see how the season goes for Russell Wilson & the Broncos with Payton as coach. If Wilson returns to form and he had an ok start against the Raiders and Denver has a potent offense then you almost have confirmation that in today's NFL you must have an offensive minded head coach & GM.

 

Great points!!  

 

Also, I just posted this to BillsUberAlles in another thread.  It's the bolded part that I thought of while reading your post. 

 

Quote

 

Having said that, where would we be with most other QBs besides Allen?  Not there.  Imagine how we'd be with Orton, Manuel, Fitzpatrick, Edwards, Losman, Holcomb or Bledsoe.  No way we'd be making the playoffs.  McD did worse offensively with Taylor than his predecessor did.  Both Taylor and the offense by about 100 points, and dropping a dozen spots in the offensive rankings.  

 

But consider, what happens in the playoffs?  If Allen doesn't go bananas we typically lose.  He's personally and almost singlehandedly responsible for 3 of McD's playoff wins.  The fourth wouldn't have happened without one of those.  

 

So "best record" is one thing.  The ability to compete in the playoffs without your QB having to do just about everything is entirely another. 

 

That's gotta be an enormous mental burden for Allen, that quite frankly, shouldn't be there on him personally like that.  

 

 

It's not fair to Allen.  

 

 

1 minute ago, CincyBillsFan said:

And I find it funny that the national media after one bad game is united in crucifying Allen while they were not nearly as critical of Russell Wilson after he stunk up an entire season.  Again there always seems to be an extra dollop of venom directed at Allen from some quarters of the media.

 

IDK, they were pretty damning of Wilson.  He didn't come from the heights that Allen's been at recently though.  But point taken.  

 

And yeah, it was a massive overreaction, but perhaps that's what it's going to take to get Allen to realize the stuff about the high-percentage throws that make the Great QBs great.  

 

Allen will post 3 or 4 TDs this week with 0 or 1 INTs and they'll be saying the opposite.  

 

I don't listen to a lick of sports talk/media, only what I see here and then only some of it.  

 

 

[No_Matter_What]

On 9/13/2023 at 6:38 PM, JayBaller10 said:

I think even the most ardent Bills homer would have to admit that wasn’t the play of a QB who had relentlessly studied the Jets defense from the two games last year. He looked unprepared and his line about preferring to react to what he’s seeing in game versus overdoing tape study rings louder after that sort of performance. 

I didn't rewatch the game but going from my memory I disagree.

 

To me he seemed just fine until he started to go deep from no reason at all, other than being bored as someone suggested. At some point, he was 17/21 or so and short game was working.

 

From some reason he started pushing it deep later in the game but he was prepared. He just decided not to get what he was given. Hopefully he learned a lesson (again).

 

My general comment (not directed to you) is that people still overreact way too much. He had a bad game from the mental point of view. He has them more often than we like. But he is still the man and I am fairly confident that he will show it later in the season. This rough start might be actually a goos thing.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

 

This is why I'm fascinated to see how the season goes for Russell Wilson & the Broncos with Payton as coach. If Wilson returns to form and he had an ok start against the Raiders and Denver has a potent offense then you almost have confirmation that in today's NFL you must have an offensive minded head coach & GM.

 

 

 

Wilson was still pretty bad on Sunday. It was just check down. Check down. Check down. No vision.

Edited September 14, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Wilson was still pretty bad on Sunday. It was just check down. Check down. Check down. No vision.

 

Yeah he's done.  The Broncos are stuck with him for the next two years I believe where the dead cap isn't bad.

 

I wonder if going forward, you won't see teams giving up so much for a veteran QB.  It has to stick in the back of their mind, why that team is willing to trade that guy? Franchise QB's are so hard to come by.

[3rdand12]

11 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

So the argument goes from "McDermott is along for the ride we win because of Josh" 

 

To

 

"Why is Josh Allen not an all world Quarterback at the moment, it must be McDermott's fault"

 

Some people have already decided their answer and will bend every single piece of evidence to fit the narrative. 

 

Joe Marino is spot on. Monday was on Josh Allen. Nobody else.

respectfully disagree. That it was solely on Allen. percentage of blame may vary from perspective to perspective LOL

 

I have made my point about that already and so have you.
 Now ,

Lets move on to the Raiders.

 Go Bills
 

[3rdand12]

5 hours ago, sunshynman said:

I think we saw the same problem in the Steelers preseason game. Josh doesn't trust the Oline to keep a pocket clean. He is afraid to stand in there and take the hit. He has been injured in the pocket, not on the run. The problem I see is that coaches are saying stay in, stop running. But until he trust the oline to give him a few seconds that is hard. And he tends to want to wait for the long route to get open. Problem is the outlets are there and we could march right down the field using them.

This is an under rated POV

And i agree fully.

 Josh has gotten the crap beat out of him , because McBeanes could not address the O line proper.

 Josh never learned how to move a pocket , step into one , when to quick release and when he could hold onto it for more than 3 seconds with out moving outside of the Tackles.

PTSD is real. And i sincerely have considered it happens to Josh over the last season into this one.
 So even if he has a better more predictable line , and how they break down. He cant trust them for that second or two. And who know what they are thinking Josh is going to do or be where

 

one two three throw. just make it simple for awhile please. From under center.

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Wilson was still pretty bad on Sunday. It was just check down. Check down. Check down. No vision.

I'll wait until half the season before making a final opinion here.  But it will be an interesting experiment to see if Payton can "fix" Wilson.

 

 

[Reed83HOF]

6 hours ago, sunshynman said:

I think we saw the same problem in the Steelers preseason game. Josh doesn't trust the Oline to keep a pocket clean. He is afraid to stand in there and take the hit. He has been injured in the pocket, not on the run. The problem I see is that coaches are saying stay in, stop running. But until he trust the oline to give him a few seconds that is hard. And he tends to want to wait for the long route to get open. Problem is the outlets are there and we could march right down the field using them.

 

 

This is for you, listen to the end...

 

 

 

[3rdand12]

Too much trust ?
Does he let him check out and into more plays than he should (Josh)
Is Josh putting himself in bad spots ?
 

I recall that Bills began to allow Josh to change calls. I wish i recalled when exactly.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Let me recap this without watching:

 

guys speak at whisper telling you it’s not as bad as it looked, and the weapons for the Bills are fine.