Buffalo Sabres and NHL 2023-2024

[Draconator]

Start them off early my mama always said.

 

I want Hellebuyck

 

@muppy Edit: https://nhl.calreplyapp.com/sabres

Edited October 26, 2023 by Draconator

[Bad Things]

Let's go Buffalo!!!

 

 

Hockey!

Hockey!!

Hockey!!!

[Nextmanup]

Long way to go right now.  

 

I would take Hellebuyck too, but that would mean getting rid of Levi, which I don't want to do.

 

 

[BillsFan4]

1 hour ago, Nextmanup said:

Long way to go right now.  

 

I would take Hellebuyck too, but that would mean getting rid of Levi, which I don't want to do.

 

 

I don’t think it would mean getting rid of Levi. It would just mean that Levi can be properly developed in the AHL. Let him spend a year or two as starter down there, then bring him up to back up Hellebuyck and go from there. If/when he is the better goalie you trade Hellebuyck.

 

It would mean getting rid of UPL or Comrie. If Winnipeg sees value in UPL and want him as part of the trade, great. If not they can have Comrie back. I assume they might be open to it because Comrie played well for Winnipeg and they didn’t want to lose him in the first place. Plus he has a reasonable cap hit for next season then is UFA.

 

For me, trading for CH would depend on what Winnipeg would want in return, if Hellebuyck was willing to sign an extension here and what that would look like. If Winnipeg wants a crazy high return and/or CH wants crazy term (6-7+yrs) or isn’t willing to sign here then it’s a no-go for me. If he’s open to signing here for something like 5 years or less, I’m good with it. Even 6yrs might not be a deal breaker for me if the cap hit is reasonable. He’d likely be here for at least 3yrs before Levi was ready to take over for him. Then Buffalo could just trade him. I don’t see having 2 good goalies as a problem…

 

As long as the trade price was reasonable I think it would be a great move. CH is one of the best goalies in the NHL and would be a great addition for a team like Buffalo that is ready to push for a playoff spot. It would sure help mask some of their issues with defense too. I don’t like the idea of relying on a young unproven goalie next season (Levi). I think they at least need a guy who can be a 1B goalie and split starting duties or carry the load when needed.

 

Personally, I don’t see Adams paying the price for CH though, unless maybe he can get it done with the #13 overall picks as the main piece. I don’t see him giving up any of the top 3-4 prospects on top of that (Savoie, Kulich, Rosen/Ostlund). Goalies usually don’t go for crazy high prices in trades. But CH might be an exception.

[4merper4mer]

4 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Long way to go right now.  

 

I would take Hellebuyck too, but that would mean getting rid of Levi, which I don't want to do.

 

 

That would mean what?

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, 4merper4mer said:

That would mean what?

 

Some numbnut on Twitter proposed trading Levi, and our #13 pick  , for Hellebuyck and it got some notice. Fortunately Kevyn Adams isn't brain dead.  BTW Joe Yerdon and Lance Lysowski discussed Hellebuyck on their 'Maintenance Day' podcast about whether he'd fit with the Sabres. Turns out he doesn't do well with a team that focuses more on offense than defense. So why make that trade?  

[BillsFan4]

2 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Some numbnut on Twitter proposed trading Levi, and our #13 pick  , for Hellebuyck and it got some notice. Fortunately Kevyn Adams isn't brain dead.  BTW Joe Yerdon and Lance Lysowski discussed Hellebuyck on their 'Maintenance Day' podcast about whether he'd fit with the Sabres. Turns out he doesn't do well with a team that focuses more on offense than defense. So why make that trade?  

I’ve never heard that argument against Hellebuyck.

Just with a quick look at his stats page I am skeptical of this argument.

 

https://www.nhl.com/stats/goalies?reportType=season&seasonFrom=20192020&seasonTo=20222023&gameType=2&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=shotsAgainst&page=0&pageSize=50

 

Looking back at his 2019/20 season, he faced the most shots against in the NHL and had the 2nd best save percentage in the league. It looks like he is at or near the top of the NHL in shots against (SA) every year from 2017-2021. 
 

last year he was near the top of the NHL in high danger save percentage, which seems consistent through his career.

 

https://www.statmuse.com/nhl/ask/nhl-goalie-overall-high-danger-save-percentage-in-the-nhl-2023-regular-season

 

and he’s consistently been one of the top goalies in the NHL in basically every advanced metric almost every season.

 

https://moneypuck.com/goalies.htm

 

He’s consistently been one of the best goalies in the NHL over his career.

 

I am not saying to give up Levi for him though. As I said in my other post I wouldn’t be on board trading one of our top prospects like Levi/Savoie/Kulich. Don’t really want to trade Rosen or Ostlund either. I’d trade #13oa and some combo of UPL/Joker/Olofsson (etc) in a heart beat though, as long as Hellebuyck was willing to sign an extension.

[BillsFan4]

I’d also be very interested in Juusi Saros if Nashville is truly looking to trade him. He’s under contract for 2 more seasons, where as Hellybuyck only has 1 year left on his deal.

 

Levi has also said that Juusi Saros is one of the goalies he models his game after. And Saros actually said Levi is a goalie he watches too! Saros could be a great mentor for Levi.

 

 

it’s rare that 2 goalies of this caliber might be available in trade. Usually teams don’t trade proven elite starting goaltenders still in their prime. With such a big need in net, for the immediate future anyway, I’d hate to not at least try to land one of the two. Not at the cost of our future, but I hope he makes a reasonable offer. The Sabres should be looking to make the playoffs next season and I don’t think relying on an unproven rookie is the route they should take.

 

If not a trade, I think Adams needs to at least sign a starting caliber goalie in free agency. The free agent goalie market doesn’t look great and I think you probably need to overpay in term to land the top options (like Andersen). 

 

As good as Levi looked I just don’t want to see him forced into a starter’s role + workload in his first NHL season at such a young age. It hasn’t been a recipe for success historically. He’s not used to the NHL grind. He’s used to going to class and playing a couple games on the weekends. It’s a lot to ask of a young rookie goalie to take on a starter’s load + burden the load of trying to break the longest active playoff drought in the NHL, and I don’t have much confidence Comrie or UPL can play the role of a 1B starter. I certainly wouldn’t bet the Sabres season on it again.

[PromoTheRobot]

8 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

I’ve never heard that argument against Hellebuyck.

Just with a quick look at his stats page I am skeptical of this argument.

 

https://www.nhl.com/stats/goalies?reportType=season&seasonFrom=20192020&seasonTo=20222023&gameType=2&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=shotsAgainst&page=0&pageSize=50

 

Looking back at his 2019/20 season, he faced the most shots against in the NHL and had the 2nd best save percentage in the league. It looks like he is at or near the top of the NHL in shots against (SA) every year from 2017-2021. 
 

last year he was near the top of the NHL in high danger save percentage, which seems consistent through his career.

 

https://www.statmuse.com/nhl/ask/nhl-goalie-overall-high-danger-save-percentage-in-the-nhl-2023-regular-season

 

and he’s consistently been one of the top goalies in the NHL in basically every advanced metric almost every season.

 

https://moneypuck.com/goalies.htm

 

He’s consistently been one of the best goalies in the NHL over his career.

 

I am not saying to give up Levi for him though. As I said in my other post I wouldn’t be on board trading one of our top prospects like Levi/Savoie/Kulich. Don’t really want to trade Rosen or Ostlund either. I’d trade #13oa and some combo of UPL/Joker/Olofsson (etc) in a heart beat though, as long as Hellebuyck was willing to sign an extension.

 

Vegas just won the cup with a backup they traded a 4th for. Goalie is the one position that is next to impossible to predict. Saying goalie X will take you to a title is foolhardy. 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

If the Sabres don't go far in next season's playoffs, it's due to mismanagement by ownership, and I will be leaving for good!

*
🤔

[PromoTheRobot]

1 minute ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

If the Sabres don't go far in next season's playoffs, it's due to mismanagement by ownership, and I will be leaving for good!

*
🤔

 

Oh     don't     stop.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Oh     don't     stop.

And taking my shopworn memes, too! 🤨

[Draconator]

Hellebryuck and Levi would be a lethal 1-2 punch in the net for Buffalo. I wouldn't be trading Levi for anyone.  

[BillsFan4]

2 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Vegas just won the cup with a backup they traded a 4th for. Goalie is the one position that is next to impossible to predict. Saying goalie X will take you to a title is foolhardy. 

I never said anything about a title. I just said I wouldn’t bet another season on UPL/Comrie and that I didn’t think it was wise to rely on a totally unproven young rookie to be the #1 guy next year if the Sabres are trying to make the playoffs. I thought my opinion was pretty reasonable…

 

What if the workload gets to Levi and he starts struggling? What if he’s not ready to be a #1 yet? What happens if he needs time in the AHL? (all things that seem very likely)

 

You really have confidence that UPL and Comrie can be our starters? If so, I’d ask why.

 

I know a lot of fans are high on Levi but there’s really no track record of 21yr old goalies being ready to carry a starter’s load in the NHL. I just want a viable alternative option on the roster. I think it would be extremely foolish not to have one. Not only for the Sabres success next season, but for Levi’s development too.

Even if they want to keep him in the NHL next year, he shouldn’t be starting more than 50% of the games (at best) and I don’t feel like we have anyone on the roster to start the other 50%. 
 

 

Edit - oh, and Vegas also has the deepest roster in the NHL and play stellar team defense. Hill was excellent for them, but he had a lot of help from the guys + system in front of him.

Adams already tried the unproven backup route last offseason. It didn’t go well.

Edited June 15, 2023 by BillsFan4

[PromoTheRobot]

2 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

I never said anything about a title. I just said I wouldn’t bet another season on UPL/Comrie and that I didn’t think it was wise to rely on a totally unproven young rookie to be the #1 guy next year if the Sabres are trying to make the playoffs. I thought my opinion was pretty reasonable…

 

What if the workload gets to Levi and he starts struggling? What if he’s not ready to be a #1 yet? What happens if he needs time in the AHL? (all things that seem very likely)

 

You really have confidence that UPL and Comrie can be our starters? If so, I’d ask why.

 

I know a lot of fans are high on Levi but there’s really no track record of 21yr old goalies being ready to carry a starter’s load in the NHL. I just want a viable alternative option on the roster. I think it would be extremely foolish not to have one. Not only for the Sabres success next season, but for Levi’s development too.

Even if they want to keep him in the NHL next year, he shouldn’t be starting more than 50% of the games (at best) and I don’t feel like we have anyone on the roster to start the other 50%. 
 

 

Edit - oh, and Vegas also has the deepest roster in the NHL and play stellar team defense. Hill was excellent for them, but he had a lot of help from the guys + system in front of him.

Adams already tried the unproven backup route last offseason. It didn’t go well.

 

Lol, the Sabres aren't exactly known for their defensive play. And from what Joe Yerdon and Lance Lysowski said on their recent podcast, Hellebuyck did not exactly thrive when facing 30+ shots a night 

 

It's also foolish to write off Comrie after a dozen games, especially when he missed most of the year with injury. UPL is still developing his game. I know Sabres fans want to drop players after one period, but I think the book on both is not closed yet 

 

And I can rest easy knowing Kevyn Adams is not going to trade the #13 pick, Quinn, Savoie, Tage and JJ for a goalie like some people want. 

Edited June 15, 2023 by PromoTheRobot

[BillsFan4]

17 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Lol, the Sabres aren't exactly known for their defensive play. And from what Joe Yerdon and Lance Lysowski said on their recent podcast, Hellebuyck did not exactly thrive when fanning 30+ shots a night 

 

It's also foolish to write off Comrie after a dozen games, resident when he missed most of the year with injury. UPL is still developing his game. I know Sabres fans want to drop players after one period, but I think the book on both is not closed yet 

 

And I can rest easy knowing Kevyn Adams is not going to trade the #13 pick, Quinn, Savoie, Tage and JJ for a goalie like some people want. 

That was exactly my point with the comments about Vegas having success with a backup goalie and the Sabres already trying that route + failing. Hence why I want a proven starter…

 

I’d be fine with Comrie or UPL as the backup. I am not confident enough in either to bet 50% (or more) of Buffalo’s games on them starting. Neither have shown enough for me to think they can handle that role. It would be great if they could, but I’m not betting the season on it again. They already tried that last year.

 

 

I also said I didn’t want to trade a crazy amount for either goalie. I even said I didn’t want to trade any of the top 4 prospects or Levi. Obviously guys like Tage/Quinn/JJ would also be a no-go for me. I figured that was assumed.

I said I’d happily do #13 and any combination of guys like UPL/Joker/Olofsson etc.

I never mentioned any of the top players and I have no idea how you are jumping to that conclusion from what I’ve said.

 

 

I kind of feel like you aren’t reading my posts and/or you are putting words in my mouth that random fans on Twitter said.

[BillsFan4]

Boo! That sucks. I thought Weber was doing a fantastic job in Rochester. That’s a big loss for the Amerks IMO.

 

I was kind of hoping maybe Weber would eventually replace Marty Wilford as the Sabres defensive asst. coach.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, BillsFan4 said:

That was exactly my point with the comments about Vegas having success with a backup goalie and the Sabres already trying that route + failing. Hence why I want a proven starter…

 

I’d be fine with Comrie or UPL as the backup. I am not confident enough in either to bet 50% (or more) of Buffalo’s games on them starting. Neither have shown enough for me to think they can handle that role. It would be great if they could, but I’m not betting the season on it again. They already tried that last year.

 

 

I also said I didn’t want to trade a crazy amount for either goalie. I even said I didn’t want to trade any of the top 4 prospects or Levi. Obviously guys like Tage/Quinn/JJ would also be a no-go for me. I figured that was assumed.

I said I’d happily do #13 and any combination of guys like UPL/Joker/Olofsson etc.

I never mentioned any of the top players and I have no idea how you are jumping to that conclusion from what I’ve said.

 

 

I kind of feel like you aren’t reading my posts and/or you are putting words in my mouth that random fans on Twitter said.

 

Sorry. Not quoting you. Just recalling many of the tweets and posts in other hockey forums. One in particular is Sneaky Joe DiBiase who has been proposing some downright ridiculous trades for Hellebuyck on his Twitter feed and hockey podcast.

[BillsPride12]

9 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Sorry. Not quoting you. Just recalling many of the tweets and posts in other hockey forums. One in particular is Sneaky Joe DiBiase who has been proposing some downright ridiculous trades for Hellebuyck on his Twitter feed and hockey podcast.

Sneaky Joe..I'm sure he's a nice guy but man he can be tough to listen to sometimes with some of the ridiculous stuff that comes out of his mouth lol

[PromoTheRobot]

14 minutes ago, BillsPride12 said:

Sneaky Joe..I'm sure he's a nice guy but man he can be tough to listen to sometimes with some of the ridiculous stuff that comes out of his mouth lol

 

I can't believe someone thought it was a good idea to give him a hockey podcast.

[Mike in Horseheads]

15 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

If the Sabres don't go far in next season's playoffs, it's due to mismanagement by ownership, and I will be leaving for good!

*
🤔

I thought I knew you!

[ALF]

A lot depends on how well Devon Levi does. 

[Jauronimo]

On 6/14/2023 at 8:48 PM, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Some numbnut on Twitter proposed trading Levi, and our #13 pick  , for Hellebuyck and it got some notice. Fortunately Kevyn Adams isn't brain dead.  BTW Joe Yerdon and Lance Lysowski discussed Hellebuyck on their 'Maintenance Day' podcast about whether he'd fit with the Sabres. Turns out he doesn't do well with a team that focuses more on offense than defense. So why make that trade?  

What goalie thrives on being hung out to dry?

[BillsPride12]

44 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

What goalie thrives on being hung out to dry?

[Buffalophil1948]

23 hours ago, BillsPride12 said:

Just got this jersey for an early Father's day gift

[Nextmanup]

On 6/16/2023 at 10:36 AM, BillsPride12 said:

The more I think back to the Dom years, the more I think what set him apart was not physicality or athleticism, but purely mental.  Concentration, focus, ability to read the ice, never making fundamental mistakes, always doing what he's supposed to be doing and stuff like that.  

 

I still say the guy is not that athletic!  Maybe I'm wrong there.  Easily the best goalie I've seen, but then not nearly as athletic as Fuhr or Roy, to name 2.

 

 

[Jauronimo]

28 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

The more I think back to the Dom years, the more I think what set him apart was not physicality or athleticism, but purely mental.  Concentration, focus, ability to read the ice, never making fundamental mistakes, always doing what he's supposed to be doing and stuff like that.  

 

I still say the guy is not that athletic!  Maybe I'm wrong there.  Easily the best goalie I've seen, but then not nearly as athletic as Fuhr or Roy, to name 2.

 

 

Hasek's style of play was built on making fundamental mistakes and recovering by twisting, contorting, and flailing his way to amazing saves.  He was the most unorthodox goalie to ever play and it wouldn't have been possible without next level agility and body control. 

[Buffalo Super Fan]

2 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Hasek's style of play was built on making fundamental mistakes and recovering by twisting, contorting, and flailing his way to amazing saves.  He was the most unorthodox goalie to ever play and it wouldn't have been possible without next level agility and body control. 

Dominik Hasek was the greatest goalie I ever saw and the Buffalo Sabres organization were incompetent to not win a Stanley Cup with Hasek in Buffalo is embarrassing. Now we will see if that happens again with Buffalo Bills Josh Allen? Time will tell but I have zero tolerance the bums running our sports teams and neither one the Buffalo Sabres or the Buffalo Bills get the benefit of the doubt anymore. I don’t trust no process after 49 years of maybe next year it’s cliche. When  you see the Buffalo sports teams waste O.J. Simpson, Gilbert Perrault, Bob McAdoo, Bruce Smith, Jim Kelly, Dominik Hasek, Jack Eichel so far in my time line as a Buffalo sports fan and now we have Josh Allen who knows how that turns out. The only generational talent the Buffalo sports teams didn’t waste was Buffalo Bandits John Tavares and Dhane Smith. Am I wrong? No that is why I don’t trust any process anymore with Buffalo sports teams in my opinion. Go Bandits! Go Sabres! Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

[TheCockSportif]

4 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

The more I think back to the Dom years, the more I think what set him apart was not physicality or athleticism, but purely mental.  Concentration, focus, ability to read the ice, never making fundamental mistakes, always doing what he's supposed to be doing and stuff like that.  

 

I still say the guy is not that athletic!  Maybe I'm wrong there.  Easily the best goalie I've seen, but then not nearly as athletic as Fuhr or Roy, to name 2.

 

 

His skating and awareness (once he left the crease) were absolutely terrible.

 

Outside of that he was otherworldly, and it feels like a gift that he was on the team for that long.  The dude just felt the game and reacted to it lightning speed.

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by TheCockSportif

[The Jokeman]

1 hour ago, I am leaving for good said:

Dominik Hasek was the greatest goalie I ever saw and the Buffalo Sabres organization were incompetent to not win a Stanley Cup with Hasek in Buffalo is embarrassing. Now we will see if that happens again with Buffalo Bills Josh Allen? Time will tell but I have zero tolerance the bums running our sports teams and neither one the Buffalo Sabres or the Buffalo Bills get the benefit of the doubt anymore. I don’t trust no process after 49 years of maybe next year it’s cliche. When  you see the Buffalo sports teams waste O.J. Simpson, Gilbert Perrault, Bob McAdoo, Bruce Smith, Jim Kelly, Dominik Hasek, Jack Eichel so far in my time line as a Buffalo sports fan and now we have Josh Allen who knows how that turns out. The only generational talent the Buffalo sports teams didn’t waste was Buffalo Bandits John Tavares and Dhane Smith. Am I wrong? No that is why I don’t trust any process anymore with Buffalo sports teams in my opinion. Go Bandits! Go Sabres! Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

Don't forget the Bandits and Josh Byrne. 

[Johnny Hammersticks]

5 hours ago, I am leaving for good said:

Dominik Hasek was the greatest goalie I ever saw and the Buffalo Sabres organization were incompetent to not win a Stanley Cup with Hasek in Buffalo is embarrassing. Now we will see if that happens again with Buffalo Bills Josh Allen? Time will tell but I have zero tolerance the bums running our sports teams and neither one the Buffalo Sabres or the Buffalo Bills get the benefit of the doubt anymore. I don’t trust no process after 49 years of maybe next year it’s cliche. When  you see the Buffalo sports teams waste O.J. Simpson, Gilbert Perrault, Bob McAdoo, Bruce Smith, Jim Kelly, Dominik Hasek, Jack Eichel so far in my time line as a Buffalo sports fan and now we have Josh Allen who knows how that turns out. The only generational talent the Buffalo sports teams didn’t waste was Buffalo Bandits John Tavares and Dhane Smith. Am I wrong? No that is why I don’t trust any process anymore with Buffalo sports teams in my opinion. Go Bandits! Go Sabres! Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

When are you leaving for good?

[4merper4mer]

6 hours ago, TheCockSportif said:

His skating and awareness (once he left the crease) were absolutely terrible.

 

Outside of that he was otherworldly, and it feels like a gift that he was on the team for that long.  The dude just felt the game and reacted to it lightning speed.

 

Absolutely one of the most fun players to watch in any sport ever.

[BillsFan4]

damn. That’s the 2nd good coach Rochester has lost this offseason.

[BillsPride12]

6 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

damn. That’s the 2nd good coach Rochester has lost this offseason.

Disappointing for sure.  I don't understand why the Sabres couldn't have made him an offer to come up to their staff 

[Gregg]

4 hours ago, BillsPride12 said:

Disappointing for sure.  I don't understand why the Sabres couldn't have made him an offer to come up to their staff 

 

42-33-7 - 91 points last season. I think the Sabres like their coaching staff. This will be the year playoff hockey returns to WNY. 

[BillsFan4]

6 hours ago, BillsPride12 said:

Disappointing for sure.  I don't understand why the Sabres couldn't have made him an offer to come up to their staff 

I think Matt Ellis running the forwards (or Jason Christie?). I think he’s done a pretty good job. I do hate losing Peca but I’m not sure if I would have fired our offensive asst coach(es).

 

Now, Marty Wilford on the other hand…

I wouldn’t have minded Mike Weber replacing him as the defensive asst. coach.

I know Wilford is supposed to be a great dude but our defense + PK hasn’t been very good.

 

Its hard to know how much of the defensive failures are even on Wilford though. Guess we just have to trust Granato/Adams… Hopefully we see improvements to both areas this season!

[JoeF]

Girgensons is back - one year deal, $2.5M...Sabres have a lot of talented forwards.....going to be an interesting couple of weeks...

Edited June 20, 2023 by JoeF

[BillsFan4]

 

nice! It’s a 2 way deal in year 1 and a 1 way deal in year 2. There were some rumors he was offered a deal in the Swiss league. If true I’m glad he decided to stay. Buffalo would’ve kept his rights anyway, but I’d rather have him here and able to play for the Sabres now.

 

I could actually see him in Buffalo this year. I think he has potential to be a good bottom 6 role player.

[BillsPride12]

8 hours ago, Gregg said:

 

42-33-7 - 91 points last season. I think the Sabres like their coaching staff. This will be the year playoff hockey returns to WNY. 

 

6 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

I think Matt Ellis running the forwards (or Jason Christie?). I think he’s done a pretty good job. I do hate losing Peca but I’m not sure if I would have fired our offensive asst coach(es).

 

Now, Marty Wilford on the other hand…

I wouldn’t have minded Mike Weber replacing him as the defensive asst. coach.

I know Wilford is supposed to be a great dude but our defense + PK hasn’t been very good.

 

Its hard to know how much of the defensive failures are even on Wilford though. Guess we just have to trust Granato/Adams… Hopefully we see improvements to both areas this season!

That's fair, I guess if there just isn't room for him it makes sense.  Still sad to lose him from our program though.

[BillsFan4]

9 minutes ago, BillsPride12 said:

 

That's fair, I guess if there just isn't room for him it makes sense.  Still sad to lose him from our program though.

Yeah me too! It feels like a potentially big loss. I wish they could have found a way to keep him too.