Seriously, how complicated is our offense

[Straight Hucklebuck]

34 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Hines is a role player at best, I think there is an unrealistic expectation on what his impact should be.  The Bills average 20 touches to RB's, how should that be broken up?

Singletary 10

Cook 9

Hines 1

[FilthyBeast]

Based on what we've seen in recent weeks not sure how complicated this offense is when it seems like they run the same handful off plays over and over again, with the entire passing game built around Diggs and the weird RB by committee thing in which every time Singletary actually gets going they decide to start giving carries to someone else.

 

In terms of Hines thought, get the feeling this is going to end up being a dud of a trade if anything because he's really just another Breida clone from last year and he was also hyped up and barely used in the end.

[blacklabel]

Yeah, their tendency to slowly bring along rookies and new signings can get irritating. There are only so many plays to be run, it's more just about knowing the terminology and the checks and stuff. But even with that, I mean, dude been playing football his whole life, surely he can look at the playbook and see plays he ran in Indy just under different names here. 

[Einstein]

12 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Singletary 10

Cook 9

Hines 1

 

Yeah I was assuming the Bills see Hines as more of a pass catcher than a runner.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Just now, Einstein said:

 

Yeah I was assuming the Bills see Hines as more of a pass catcher than a runner.

Yeah this idea that he is somehow going to play slot-WR is half baked to me. 

 

He is 5'9" and not very fast. 

 

He doesn't play like a 4.38 WR. 

 

He plays like a small 4.50 running back catching dump off passes and getting tackled after 7-yards. 

 

 

[Einstein]

3 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Yeah this idea that he is somehow going to play slot-WR is half baked to me. 

 

He is 5'9" and not very fast. 

 

He doesn't play like a 4.38 WR. 

 

He is faster than both Diggs and Gabe Davis. Edit: and Cole Beasley

 

.

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Einstein

[Negan]

Can we bring in Phil Jackson to run the triangle 📐 offense?  Maybe get Dennis, Michael, and Scotty to show how it's done.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

35 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

He is faster than both Diggs and Gabe Davis. Edit: and Cole Beasley

 

.

 

Definitely isn't. 

 

Watch his Indy highlights.

 

He runs like a scat back, jumpy movements. 

 

It's not smooth. 

 

Hines is not capable of a 98-yard TD running away from DBs. 

[Einstein]

Just now, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Definitely isn't. 

 

Watch his Indy highlights.

 

He runs like a scat back, jumpy movements. 

 

It's not smooth. 

 

Hines is not capable of a 98-yard TD running away from DBs. 

 

You realize they test player speed at the combine right? Hines was faster than all 3.

[LABILLBACKER]

51 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

Yeah, their tendency to slowly bring along rookies and new signings can get irritating. There are only so many plays to be run, it's more just about knowing the terminology and the checks and stuff. But even with that, I mean, dude been playing football his whole life, surely he can look at the playbook and see plays he ran in Indy just under different names here. 

Every single player acquired at the trade deadline had an immediate impact on their new team except Hines.  If we’re going to dick around and not use these guys why the F did we waste the picks?

[RyanC883]

15 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Is our offense that complicated that a 5 year vet cant get some plays?  This is one thing I dont like about our coaches.  They dont trust anyone to play football and have to coddle everyone.

 

 

Teams around the league had players make plays after only being on the team for like 4 days.  Not our team though.  Our team needs rookies to get close to the end of their rookie contract before they see the field unless out of necessity.  Our team wont have Hines ready until next year.  

 

totally agree with this.  McD is overthinking everything.  Get the best players out there.  Have some plays for them.  McCaffrey still looks like a beast in San Fran.  

[Nephilim17]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Yeah this idea that he is somehow going to play slot-WR is half baked to me. 

 

He is 5'9" and not very fast. 

 

He doesn't play like a 4.38 WR. 

 

He plays like a small 4.50 running back catching dump off passes and getting tackled after 7-yards. 

 

 

If you don't believe your own eyes when it comes to Hines, do you believe Allen's and Digg's? When they first saw Hines run in practice they turned to each other and commented on how fast he was.

[Toyo321]

48 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

totally agree with this.  McD is overthinking everything.  Get the best players out there.  Have some plays for them.  McCaffrey still looks like a beast in San Fran.  

Yeah I agree too.  We always try to make simple process more complicated than it needs to be.  You teach the guy the basic's to your offense and the rest of the play or the results after the catch are always different when you're a running back coming out of the backfield.

[Southern_Bills]

10 hours ago, BIGFOOTspaceman said:

The offense is pretty vanilla.  There are no creative formations and very little misdirection.  To me it seems like McD and Dorsey want to brutalize the opponent with their execution and talent.  

 

This gets you so only far until there is enough tape on your offense to defend it.  Gotta rememeber....the guys on the other side of the ball are talented too.

 

Listening to Gabe Davis and Diggs interviews it seems the "creativity" comes from having options at the top of the route.

 

They can execute 3 different routes on most plays according on coverage. Which requires chemistry with the QB, which would lend to the thinking of it taking more time to get guys involved. It would also explain motor getting more plays than Cook when , IMO, Cook is clearly better.

 

Not defending them necessarily, just trying to piece together what's going on with logic.

[ControllerOfPlanetX]

I think I am tired of this “grow” nonsense,  the only thing I want to see grow is the win column.

[Scott7975]

3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Beasley had training camp. And didn't run at RB or on STs, so his role was much less complex.

 

Beasley also in the years when he was one of our best two or three options put up 11.6 and 11.8 Y/R. Hines has never been that dynamic. His high is 7.8. 

 

He's right, you're imagining a different Hines. Comparing him to Beasley or Davis just doesn't make sense.

 

Im not comparing him to Beasley or Davis.  Follow the entire conversation. Saying that Hines "only" had 86 touches or whatever was is a nonsensical arguement.

 

Im not imagining a different Hines.  Im imagining a guy that can play RB, Slot, and punt/kick return.  He is fast and a very good pass catching back.  Thats what I am imagining and thats what he is.  Is he elite? No but he is very good and he is fast. He ran a 4.38 40 which makes him the fastest offensive guy on our team. 

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Yeah this idea that he is somehow going to play slot-WR is half baked to me. 

 

He is 5'9" and not very fast. 

 

He doesn't play like a 4.38 WR. 

 

He plays like a small 4.50 running back catching dump off passes and getting tackled after 7-yards. 

 

 

 

He is the fastest guy on our team. Getting tackled after 7-8 yards is basically what pass catching backs do until they break one.

[starrymessenger]

2 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

He is the fastest guy on our team. Getting tackled after 7-8 yards is basically what pass catching backs do until they break one.

He fast. He bad fast.

Hes also quick and good in space. I'm sure we will get a good look at him soon.

[goldenboy81]

Well apparently Gabe only runs 3 routes so my answer is not complicated 

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Definitely isn't. 

 

Watch his Indy highlights.

 

He runs like a scat back, jumpy movements. 

 

It's not smooth. 

 

Hines is not capable of a 98-yard TD running away from DBs. 

 

Yeah certainly slow and not capable. 2 punt return TDs in one game:

 

 

 

Beats the DBs for 34 yard TD

 

https://www.colts.com/video/highlight-nyheim-hines-scores-on-34-yard-cutback-td-run

 

Why does it have to be 98 yards?  Thats the measuring stick?

[Straight Hucklebuck]

12 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Yeah certainly slow and not capable. 2 punt return TDs in one game:

 

 

 

Beats the DBs for 34 yard TD

 

https://www.colts.com/video/highlight-nyheim-hines-scores-on-34-yard-cutback-td-run

 

Why does it have to be 98 yards?  Thats the measuring stick?

Ok Scott, you’re right, I throw my hands up.

 

Nyheim Hines is definitely known around the league as a burner. 
 

The Bills just can’t figure out how to unlock all that speed must be.

[Scott7975]

5 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Peterson absolutely did NOT say that he knew what play we were running. 

 

He did say that he knew two concepts we often use in the red zone. So he thought he'd see those concepts, but didn't know for sure. He was prepared for some types of plays we run in the red zone. And he did say that Gabe was running only in-breakers all day. (If that's true, it should absolutely be corrected. Gabe runs out-breakers really well. If they fell into a pattern this game without noticing, that does need to be addressed.)

 

Most teams have red zone packages and go with things that have worked for them.

 

So Peterson knew what types of things to look for. He did think that if the D went quarters he might see a dig or a double post, and Gabe was indeed running a post there. Peterson also says, "Everybody loves to run that." It's not just the Bills. But he had the right idea.

 

But if he so clearly knew what was going to happen, how come it took a bad throw for him to make that INT?

 

Peterson was beaten on the play. A good pass there is a touchdown. Peterson was behind and to the right. Allen threw low and behind, right to him. If he'd led Davis correctly and put it high, it was a touchdown.

 

It was a pass that just wasn't good enough. Someone on here the other day said that it seemed Josh was forcing balls to Diggs and Davis. That's what seemed to happen that play. Two guys were opener on easier throws. That's a tendency, and probably one of Josh's rather than Dorsey's.

 

That was the crucial bit of Peterson's quotation. He said, "Josh thought he had it, and like I said, Josh is a guy that trusts his arm strength. He's a gunslinger. Coach alluded to it all week. 'Stay plastered into your coverage. Stay tight into your coverage. He just might throw you one.' "

 

Yeah, that's what happened. Three guys were open, the closer two very open and Davis a bit but the throw had to be perfect. Josh picked the receiver he most wanted there, the guy who was least open but furthest down the field, and he does indeed trust his arm. That throw had to be a really good one and instead it was, what, a yard and a half to the right and low and hard instead of thrown over the top. That was a shame.

 

Most of the game he was his usual terrific self, but he had five or six throws that weren't up to his usual standards. That's how he's looked the past two or three games. And it's cost us.

 

 

 

Peterson said right in the beginning he knew the routes gabe davis runs in certain formation sets.  He said he knew the concepts we run in the redzone and listed them.  So yeah... they knew what we were doing.  The video I put below in part shows where other teams knew what we were doing.

 

You should maybe watch this.  Im not the only one that thinks some of our plays are predictable just by formation.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2022 by Scott7975

[Buffalo Junction]

7 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

This isn't true. Quarters rules have the LB play the wheel of #3. Peterson would have been in the exact same spot regardless of what Singletary did.

Respectfully disagree. You’re absolutely correct for the route concept we ran…. However, with a wheel route or motioned RB the LBer is only fully responsible for the first half of the route. Petersons responsibility would have been to break off and help over the top, especially if the LBer can’t carry the route. If Peterson makes the same assumption as he did and that LB isn’t fast enough the RB’s wheel route is open for an end zone shot. It’s why the CB is supposed to play that post on the outside hip of the WR instead of undercutting the route. Regardless, due to how Peterson played that route concept Allen should have either thrown to Singletary, thrown a high ball to Davis that would have gone out of bounds if missed, run it, or put it in the dirt. Peterson simply knew he didn’t have to worry about anyone threatening that zone unless the play turned into a scramble drill. 

Edited November 18, 2022 by Buffalo Junction

[Chicken Boo]

Classic McDermott Bills, wasting veteran RB talent.  

[HoofHearted]

13 hours ago, Buffalo Junction said:

Respectfully disagree. You’re absolutely correct for the route concept we ran…. However, with a wheel route or motioned RB the LBer is only fully responsible for the first half of the route. Petersons responsibility would have been to break off and help over the top, especially if the LBer can’t carry the route. If Peterson makes the same assumption as he did and that LB isn’t fast enough the RB’s wheel route is open for an end zone shot. It’s why the CB is supposed to play that post on the outside hip of the WR instead of undercutting the route. Regardless, due to how Peterson played that route concept Allen should have either thrown to Singletary, thrown a high ball to Davis that would have gone out of bounds if missed, run it, or put it in the dirt. Peterson simply knew he didn’t have to worry about anyone threatening that zone unless the play turned into a scramble drill. 

They're playing "Palms" which is a pattern match Quarters coverage also known as 2-Read. Both Corner and Safety are keying the #2 receiver. The corner is aligned outside leverage of #1 because the coverage can turn into a Cover 2 look depending on the route combination they get. If the #2 receiver were to break out the corner would drive the out and pass off the #1 receiver to the Safety. The corner needs to be outside leverage of this in order to force the #1 receiver to inside release him to give the Safety more time to work over the top of #1. In the Double Post scenario we gave them both #2 and #1 were vertical. Once the #2 and #1 receivers get past linebacker depth it turns into Cover 0 for the Safety and Corner with the ability to still trade off the route if they run some type of deep Scissors concept. In the case of the Double Post - as soon as the corner sees the inbreak of the #2 receiver he now knows he has true man coverage on the #1 receiver and can begin to push to inside leverage of the #1 to take away the Post. 

 

Linebackers are relate to #2 players in Palms. Once they get their pass read they will drop to the curl window and work to the inside hip of the #2 receiver. His rules are to wall any seam or inbreaking route by #2 and force it outside and over the top in order to push it to the Safety. Once #2 has released vertically he can settle and look for anything else coming out and potentially trying to cross his face. If anything crosses his face he has it man to man. So a swing by the back would widen the outside linebacker to the flat. If the back were to wheel it up the sideline the linebacker would carry the wheel of the back.

[78thealltimegreat]

I saw this with the Cowboys under Jason Garrett he believed in running simple plays over and over again as a way to psychologically get in a opponents heads. It worked sometimes it didn’t work others. 
Seems the Bills just think they can lineup and run the same plays and beat their opponents and in reality if not for acts of insane luck by the Vikings last week they would be right. 
Still if you’re looking for trick plays or creativity this isn’t the team for you. It’s basically Josh Allen and Steff Diggs then a bunch of guys running the same routes.