Is There So Little Love for Tremaine Edmunds?

[LeGOATski]

8 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

I guess I thought that when you said “his tackles generally were near the line of scrimmage” you meant at the line of scrimmage, but maybe you meant that 5 yards or so is near the line of scrimmage. 

 

 

We can agree to disagree on that.

 

Its more accurate, in my opinion, to say he got lucky. He did not even touch the ball. He wasn’t looking at the ball. The ball hit the receivers shoulder pads and bounced off.

 

 

In my opinion he gets credit for being in position to make a play, but he didn’t actually make the play. He never touched the ball. He never even saw the ball.

 

.

You've lost all remaining credibility with this take. 

[Einstein]

8 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 

 

Just learned about that stat. Thanks for teaching me something.

 

 

[LeGOATski]

9 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 

 

There are a number of star LBs out there Bills fans love, but would bash them if they actually played for the Bills.

[Einstein]

51 minutes ago, Logic said:

I don’t think most Bills fans have ever understood this fundamental truth about Edmunds: The size and speed and wingspan he possesses...

 

This is true. Edmunds athletic and physical ability is undeniable. I mentioned it below (from the Ravens game). Not many LB's have the speed and length to cross the field and catch up to an elite runner like Lamar Jackson. Edmunds does.

 

The question becomes - does that size and speed and wingspan make up for his lack of between the tackles run-stopping ability and other imperfect qualities?

 

 

[GoBills808]

8 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Just learned about that stat. Thanks for teaching me something.

 

 

I actually don't think it's all that relevant in evaluating players in our defense tbh.

 

For example vs the run our LBs are often tasked w spilling blocks and so our safeties/Taron Johnson are going to have lower average depth of tackle vs their peers which is less a function of their quality of play than it is our scheme

 

Likewise Edmunds has a much deeper box than a traditional MLB, so average depth of tackle isn't going to necessarily reflect on his play either

 

 

[Einstein]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

I actually don't think it's all that relevant in evaluating players in our defense tbh.

 

For example vs the run our LBs are often tasked w spilling blocks and so our safeties/Taron Johnson are going to have lower average depth of tackle vs their peers which is less a function of their quality of play than it is our scheme

 

Likewise Edmunds has a much deeper box than a traditional MLB, so average depth of tackle isn't going to necessarily reflect on his play either

 

Thoughts on this stat?

 

 

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Thoughts on this stat?

 

 

It's not surprising

[FireChans]

24 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 

Shaq Leonard - 5 yr $98M deal

 

Fred Warner - 5 yr $95M deal

 

Matt Milano - 4 year $41M deal

 

Tremaine Edmunds - playing on his fifth year option with no long-term deal in sight

[ScorpionZero]

Unfortunately he doesn't make enough big plays at MLB, if we played a traditional 4-3 and he was at outside linebacker there world be something there. Falling tackles 3-4 yards downfield isn't gonna get you your next big contract. I would keep him if his price was right, but not what he does. Give me another Milano at middle/SS linebacker. Kinda why they drafted the linebackers they did. Look for a high draft pick for a hybrid safety/linebacker that can take his place.

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Shaq Leonard - 5 yr $98M deal

 

Fred Warner - 5 yr $95M deal

 

Matt Milano - 4 year $41M deal

 

Tremaine Edmunds - playing on his fifth year option with no long-term deal in sight

Good argument 😂😂

 

All the biggest QB contracts are the best guys too right

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Good argument 😂😂

 

All the biggest QB contracts are the best guys too right

The actual argument would be most QB's who don't get locked up to a long term deal almost all are not good.  lol.

Edited November 2, 2022 by FireChans

[Shaw66]

30 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

1.  I guess I thought that when you said “his tackles generally were near the line of scrimmage” you meant at the line of scrimmage, but maybe you meant that 5 yards or so is near the line of scrimmage. 

 

2.  Its more accurate, in my opinion, to say he got lucky. He did not even touch the ball. He wasn’t looking at the ball. The ball hit the receivers shoulder pads and bounced off.

 

 

3.  In my opinion he gets credit for being in position to make a play, but he didn’t actually make the play. He never touched the ball. He never even saw the ball.

 

.

Thanks for talking about this.   I have to say that although I've come to understand what it is that they've asked Edmunds to do, it's also become clear to me that there are no tools available to fans, tools like stats, that can help us understand how important his impact on the defense.  I think the impact is significant, but I can't really say that, because I don't have the tools to measure that impact.  

 

As to your point 1., you now understand what I meant.  I was critical of Edmunds for his first three seasons in the same way a lot of fans here are critical of him.  He seemed clearly to be making mistakes on the field, attacking the wrong gaps, overrunning plays, etc.  After a while, I began to see that he although sometime he was making mistakes, a lot of the time he was doing what he was told to do.  In the last couple of seasons I've slowly learned and understood what McDermott has said over and over again, that this a team defense, that everyone has 1/11th to do, etc.  The defense works by everyone understanding where he's supposed to be and by everyone making tackles when the opportunity arises.   Edmunds job is NOT to attack the line of scrimmage, even though that's what we've all grown accustomed to seeing in great linebackers over the past, in my case, 70 years.   His job is to make tackle the ball carriers who make it through the initial line of defense. 

 

What's the initial line of defense?   Well, it's four to six guys, depending on the play call.  One of the safeties attacks the run at the line of scrimmage much more than Edmunds does.  And Milano does, too.  Edmunds job seems to be not make plays at the point of attack but to clean up the mess when none of the guys at the point of attack make the tackle.  His job is to prevent five-yard gains from becoming 15 yard gains.   So, he makes a lot tackles five yards beyond the line of scrimmage.   I have a sense, but it is only a sense, that he is doing that much better this season, and maybe last, than he did earlier.   Earlier, he was chasing the ball carrier down the field; now he's forcing the ball carrier out of bounds - he's moving laterally and not letting him get to the secondary. 

 

2.   Yes, I agree, he was lucky on the pass break up.  He didn't make a classic play on the ball.  But I have absolutely no doubt that when the coaches grade that play he got high grades.  His first job on pass defense is to occupy space and by doing so, to discourage the QB from throwing over the middle.  I think he's doing that better than ever, because there are fewer passes being completed over the middle this season.  Those passes are the ones that resulted in a lot of Edmunds tackles this season.  There aren't so many of those this season.

 

His second job is to be cose enough to the receiver to make the tackle if the pass is complete.   His third job is to break up the pass.   He clearly did the second job, and he did it so well he broke up the pass, by luck you say.   I agree, in the most ideal situation, the defender finds the ball and knocks it down.   He didn't do that.   But he was, legally, so close to the receiver that he made it impossible for the receiver to catch the ball, and that certainly is good enough to get the PBU.   And that's my answer to 3.  He made the play.  

 

Pass defenders get very few pure pass breakups.  It's just too hard.  

[ScorpionZero]

As a middle linebacker where was he when green bay was running the ball right down our throat, he's supposed to be that guy you have to take outta the play to run the ball, but where was he. I do like Edmonds, but he's an of the ball linebacker who tries to stop the pass and mitigate the run, that's why he's tackling 4-6 yards down the field. Cleaning up what the D-line doesn't get. Linebackers today are basically big safeties, because of how offenses are rolling. Greenbay proved that by running the football right at us. But unless you have a decent passing game it just isn't sustainable. I would like to keep him for the right price but I think he's been playing out of position all these years. He should've been an OLB 

[Shaw66]

13 minutes ago, ScorpionZero said:

Unfortunately he doesn't make enough big plays at MLB

This is the core misunderstanding of Edmunds role.   His job is not to make the big plays you're looking for.   His job is not to blitz, so he doesn't get sacks.   His job is not to attack the line of scrimmage, so he doesn't get TFLs.  His job is to occupy a lot of territory and make tackles when they come to him.   By occupying a lot of space, he makes it easier for all of the pass defenders to do THEIR jobs.  

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

22 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I looked but didn't see a Tremaine Edmunds thread.  Well, one that was locked.

 

I was at the game and have had the benefit of no real discussion of the game.  All I knew at the game was that every time I looked, Edmunds was making another tackle.  Not always picture book, but he wasn't missing many.  And his tackles generally were near the line of scrimmage.   And he had a pass break up that nearly was intercepted. 

 

What is interesting about Edmunds this season is that he's making good stops in the run game, because he isn't being blocked.  The D line, I think, is making it tough for offensive linemen to get to the linebacker level, and Edmunds is able to read and react.  He's been a sure tackler, and his pas coverage last night also seemed solid.   Milano makes more spectacular plays, but I think Edmunds may have had more impact on the defense.

 

He's not Roquan Smith; he's not plugging gaps and making a bunch of tackles that way.   He really is protecting the whole field, laterally.  His job is make sure that the Bills bend but don't break.  

 

16 tackles is nothing to sneer at, even if it happened because the Packers featured the run.  Yes, the Packers had a lot of statistical success running the ball, but the Bills are willing to give them that success.   I know that sounds stupid, and McDermott would never say it, but let's face it:   This team is built to say the opponent, "We're going to put up 28 or more - we challenge you to match it."   Their defensive style very much is, "If you're going to move the ball, you're going to do it only with long, sustained drives.  If you can do that, you'll get some scores against us, but we don't think you can do that and get to 28."   And that is exactly what happened last night.   The way that kind of defensive philosophy succeeds is that you make a lot tackles (notice that the Bills often lose time of possession and often have fewer plays than the opponent, which means the Bills are making a lot tackles).  Last night, those tackles came to Edmunds.   

 

I don't know what I missed about his performance, and I'll be happy to hear what others thought.  

 

 

The biggest problem by far with Tremaine, is a total lack of understanding of football is not an impediment whatsoever to tbd’ers posting strong opinions as fact.
 

He’s good, really good. The nfl players and coaches all know it. Yes he’s so athletically gifted he underachieves compared to Micah parsons or the like.
 

But he is rock solid. I mean half the posters here still think all linebackers have the role Ray Lewis did without realizing how different the D systems can be. And a number of his detractors completely miss that Milano makes errors too, mainly because this d relies on those two spots to do a lot. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

19 minutes ago, ScorpionZero said:

As a middle linebacker where was he when green bay was running the ball right down our throat, he's supposed to be that guy you have to take outta the play to run the ball, but where was he. I do like Edmonds, but he's an of the ball linebacker who tries to stop the pass and mitigate the run, that's why he's tackling 4-6 yards down the field. Cleaning up what the D-line doesn't get. Linebackers today are basically big safeties, because of how offenses are rolling. Greenbay proved that by running the football right at us. But unless you have a decent passing game it just isn't sustainable. I would like to keep him for the right price but I think he's been playing out of position all these years. He should've been an OLB 

Wrong wrong wrong.. this isn’t a wrecks Ryan 3-4. This defense works completely differently than ‘MLB go get running back’

[BuffaloFan68]

Tremaine Edmunds is becoming a Beast and his ceiling is unlimited.

Let’s Go Buffalo!!!!!

[Dopey]

22 hours ago, Virgil said:

You forgot the 5 yard piggy back ride he gave the Packers player 

If you can watch the game again, you should go to 14:15 left in the 2nd qt. Dillon took Milano for a nice little ride. 4-5 yds.  It happens. Seems they stand out more for Edmunds 🤔

[Dopey]

5 hours ago, FireChans said:

LMAO there are no topics about Roussea debating how good he is. Or Boogie Basham. Or even Oliver at this point.

 

They all dried up.  Because they proved something.

 

Cook hasn't.  And Edmunds hadn't.

I said they were called busts, in their rookie seasons. Your 2nd to last paragraph makes my point for me. 

[Dopey]

3 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

I'll have to watch the game again.

 

From recollection, it seemed like most of his tackles were 5+ yards downfield.

 

 

Should a player get credit for a PBU when they never turned around and the ball ricochet off the receivers shoulder pads?

 

 

 

He’s lined up 6 yds off the line and drops into coverage most times. Of course most of his tackles won’t be tfl. He’s not asked to do that. I think you might not like how he’s used. 
I just watched that play again and your still is deceiving. Edmunds definitely created the opportunity for an int and it was definitely a pbu.  
The still reeks of “agenda”. There’s no way you can see the play again and say it wasn’t a pbu. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Dopey

[Einstein]

Just now, Dopey said:

He’s lined up 6 yds off the line and drops into coverage most times. Of course most of his tackles won’t be tfl. He’s not asked to do that. 
I just watched that play again and your still is deceiving. Edmunds definitely created the opportunity for an int and it was definitely a pbu.  
The still reeks of “agenda”. There’s no way you can see the play again and say it wasn’t a pbu. 

 

Literally no part of his body touches the ball...

[LABILLBACKER]

I think we're all in agreement Tremaine over these last 5 years has been a dime strong safety. His job and strength is roaming the middle of the field eliminating passing lanes. This is where he gets his deflections.  I wish him the best in his quest to get a good contract. But I find it almost impossible we extend him. McB will draft a hybrid LB/SS.

[FireChans]

44 minutes ago, Dopey said:

I said they were called busts, in their rookie seasons. Your 2nd to last paragraph makes my point for me. 

Edmunds isn't a rookie. He is in his fifth season.

 

Do you know why there aren't a bunch of topics talking about Rousseau's performance?  Because after a decent rookie campaign (he wasn't an All-Pro), he has played EXTREMELY well in his second season.

 

Do you know why Edmunds is still talked about in year 5?  Because, from years 1-4, he has been VERY up-and-down.

 

It's the same reason there were a bunch of topics on Josh Allen until year 2-3.  And now there aren't.  But there were a ton of topics on Tyrod his entire career in Buffalo.

 

Where there's smoke, there's fire.

Edited November 2, 2022 by FireChans

[Beast]

Fe’Zahn is a stud. End of story.

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I think we're all in agreement Tremaine over these last 5 years has been a dime strong safety. His job and strength is roaming the middle of the field eliminating passing lanes. This is where he gets his deflections.  I wish him the best in his quest to get a good contract. But I find it almost impossible we extend him. McB will draft a hybrid LB/SS.

What is a hybrid LB/SS?  I mean, isn't that what Edmunds is?

[Dopey]

13 hours ago, FireChans said:

Edmunds isn't a rookie. He is in his fifth season.

 

Do you know why there aren't a bunch of topics talking about Rousseau's performance?  Because after a decent rookie campaign (he wasn't an All-Pro), he has played EXTREMELY well in his second season.

 

Do you know why Edmunds is still talked about in year 5?  Because, from years 1-4, he has been VERY up-and-down.

 

It's the same reason there were a bunch of topics on Josh Allen until year 2-3.  And now there aren't.  But there were a ton of topics on Tyrod his entire career in Buffalo.

 

Where there's smoke, there's fire.

So, the talk stops for those you mentioned cuz they’re playing well now. Edmunds is  having a great year so far, yet still the negative posts. You’re not making as much sense as you think you are. Where there’s smoke… yeah, you’re smoking something alright. Puff puff give. 

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Dopey said:

So, the talk stops for those you mentioned cuz they’re playing well now. Edmunds is  having a great year so far, yet still the negative posts. You’re not making as much sense as you think you are. Where there’s smoke… yeah, you’re smoking something alright. Puff puff give. 

THERE HAVE BEEN WAY LESS NEGATIVE POSTS ABOUT EDMUNDS THIS YEAR

[LABILLBACKER]

14 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

What is a hybrid LB/SS?  I mean, isn't that what Edmunds is?

Yes, that's exactly what he is but he won't be here next year because we're not paying him 14-18M/ yr to do what a rookie SS  can do for 2-3M. So we will need to find another hybrid to replace our current hybrid.

[Ghs24mike]

11 minutes ago, Buffalo619 said:

He’s too slow, mentally and physically to be a successful starting LB in the NFL. He constantly gets caught up in the wash and is in wrong position/gap.  He does flash occasionally but not nearly enough to warrant an extension. I’ll predict we dump him and find his replacement in free agency. 

Too slow physically? What are you talking about? 

[Alphadawg7]

Facts:  Edmunds is having a very good season.  It's indisputable.  

 

Anyone refusing to accept that just tells me you either don't know enough about football to know what you are looking at or are just more concerned about being right about your dislike than you are about being unbiased and giving him a fair review of what he is doing this season.  Its totally OK to not want to resign him still, I don't have an issue if someone doesn't want to spend a large amount of money on a player or position.  But if you are sitting saying he still sucks this year, then you are not worth discussing anything with because you are unreasonable and just stubborn on your own bias.

 

None of it means he will for sure be resigned because his contract and the cap are real things that will play into any decisions about him.  But he is undeniably having a very good season. 

[Alphadawg7]

30 minutes ago, Buffalo619 said:

He’s too slow, mentally and physically to be a successful starting LB in the NFL. He constantly gets caught up in the wash and is in wrong position/gap.  He does flash occasionally but not nearly enough to warrant an extension. I’ll predict we dump him and find his replacement in free agency. 

 

LMAO...there are some terrible takes on here, but this is one of the worst.  Too slow physically?  He is unreal fast for his size and one of the faster LB's in the game.  I mean do you even know what number Edmunds wears because how could anyone not know this or see this on the field when he plays?  

 

Cant be a successful starting LB in the NFL?  The same guy that is a 2 time pro bowler, entered the season 5th in total tackles across the NFL since entering the NFL as a raw underaged player, and is on track for probably a 3rd pro bowl this year?  The guy who leads the number 1 defense in tackles every year of his career?  They guy everyone on this board says he is going to get a huge payday this offseason?  This is the guy you think cant be a successful starting LB even though he has been one his whole career?  LMAO

 

The absurdity of saying that he cant be a starting LB in the NFL is so beyond outrageous its like it came straight out a slapstick comedy.  He would start on the vast majority of the NFL rosters without question.

 

This is the kind of over the top, outrageous gross exaggeration about him that drives me nuts.  

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Yes, that's exactly what he is but he won't be here next year because we're not paying him 14-18M/ yr to do what a rookie SS  can do for 2-3M. So we will need to find another hybrid to replace our current hybrid.

So, you can find a 6'5" 250 pound rookie who runs a 4.5 40 and will be your signal caller as a rookie?

 

If you can play an oversized rookie safety in the center of the number 1 defense in the league, why doesn't every team have one of those?

[Old Coot]

19 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I think we're all in agreement Tremaine over these last 5 years has been a dime strong safety. His job and strength is roaming the middle of the field eliminating passing lanes. This is where he gets his deflections.  I wish him the best in his quest to get a good contract. But I find it almost impossible we extend him. McB will draft a hybrid LB/SS.

This comment is spot-on. 

 

The Cover 2 shell the Bills play as a base defense has a hole in the middle between the safeties.  Tou need an Edmunds type to guard that hole.  Assuming he's gone next year who do we use to fill that role?  Do we have anyone on the roster? FA? Draft possibility?

 

It is possible to guard that hole without an Edmunds/ Urlacher type as MLB but it's more complicated and involves disgusied coverages which you can only do for so long before the disguise is recognized.

[LeGOATski]

20 minutes ago, Old Coot said:

This comment is spot-on. 

 

The Cover 2 shell the Bills play as a base defense has a hole in the middle between the safeties.  Tou need an Edmunds type to guard that hole.  Assuming he's gone next year who do we use to fill that role?  Do we have anyone on the roster? FA? Draft possibility?

 

It is possible to guard that hole without an Edmunds/ Urlacher type as MLB but it's more complicated and involves disgusied coverages which you can only do for so long before the disguise is recognized.

They'll have to use another 1st round pick to get a guy with Tremaine's skill/intangibles.

 

Someone mentioned Trenton Simpson, which is probably a good comparison. Go ahead and read this draft profile and tell me who it reminds you of...

 

https://nflmocks.com/2022/11/02/ndn-what-makes-clemson-linebacker-trent-simpson-a-potential-nfl-draft-first-round-pick/

[LABILLBACKER]

45 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

So, you can find a 6'5" 250 pound rookie who runs a 4.5 40 and will be your signal caller as a rookie?

 

If you can play an oversized rookie safety in the center of the number 1 defense in the league, why doesn't every team have one of those?

They do, they just don't call them a MLB.  Tremaine has played the SS position his entire career. He just happens to have the size and "Title" of a middle linebacker. Beane will find someone in the draft or bargain FA who might be 6-1/6-2 who can play that hybrid role. Maybe I'll just stop using the term hybrid and say our 2nd SS?  Do you think he gets extended?

[LABILLBACKER]

27 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

They'll have to use another 1st round pick to get a guy with Tremaine's skill/intangibles.

 

Someone mentioned Trenton Simpson, which is probably a good comparison. Go ahead and read this draft profile and tell me who it reminds you of...

 

https://nflmocks.com/2022/11/02/ndn-what-makes-clemson-linebacker-trent-simpson-a-potential-nfl-draft-first-round-pick/

6 -3, 240, 4.39 (40).....yikes!

CBS has him currently projected #35 over-all. There you go, someone we could draft on a 5 year rookie contract who could take over for TE.  Maybe he even surprises us with some instincts at the LOS?

Trenton Simpson, remember that name.

[VaMilBill]

I gotta say I’m not the biggest Edmunds fan, but his strengths are perfect matchups for the Chiefs and the Ravens. I really think we need to keep him. 
 

yeah he doesn’t make the splashy plays, but he covers up lanes and can keep a QB from making a back breaking play or a RB coming out or the backfield from ripping off a big gain

[Brand J]

4 minutes ago, VaMilBill said:

I gotta say I’m not the biggest Edmunds fan, but his strengths are perfect matchups for the Chiefs and the Ravens. I really think we need to keep him. 
 

yeah he doesn’t make the splashy plays, but he covers up lanes and can keep a QB from making a back breaking play or a RB coming out or the backfield from ripping off a big gain

I don’t want to pile on negativity here, but what is the biggest play Edmunds has made against Mahomes and the Chiefs? In the last 5 matchups, what play has stuck out more than any other? His strengths should stand out against the Chiefs, but I think he’s easily manipulated by Mahomes.

[VaMilBill]

37 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

I don’t want to pile on negativity here, but what is the biggest play Edmunds has made against Mahomes and the Chiefs? In the last 5 matchups, what play has stuck out more than any other? His strengths should stand out against the Chiefs, but I think he’s easily manipulated by Mahomes.

Like I said, he doesn’t make splash plays. But he eats up a ton of field potentially limiting Kelce from having an even bigger day. 
 

But his best games have been against the Ravens. He is excellent at helping to beat the Ravens. If we lose his speed and range I’d be worried about the Ravens, specifically Lamar, shredding us

[Don Otreply]

39 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

I don’t want to pile on negativity here, but what is the biggest play Edmunds has made against Mahomes and the Chiefs? In the last 5 matchups, what play has stuck out more than any other? His strengths should stand out against the Chiefs, but I think he’s easily manipulated by Mahomes.

When most of the league is easily manipulated by Mahomes, that’s not much of a bullet point.  Much the same can be said about those that try and fail to defend against Josh Allen.  Allen & Mahomes  fake defenders out of their jocks on a regular basis. That’s what happens when you go up against guys like them.