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Help me understand an OBJ trade


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9 minutes ago, Behindenemylines said:

Not so much the $ but who would we need to jettison to bring him on particularly with his rehab and timing of availability 

Well, part of the benefit of signing him now is he could go onto the PUP list. He would count against the current 85 man limit but would NOT count against the final 53 man.  He could stay there until after week 4, then the team has 21 days to decide to activate him, put him on IR, or release him.  Since the NFL now allows teams to bring as many as 8 players back from IR they could put him on IR from the PUP and have to wait another 4 weeks at minimum to activate him.  All of this time he's not counting against the roster limit.

 

Sign him today, put him on the PUP list he's out until after week 4, then the team can either IR him immediately and be out until after week 8 or, if they think he'd be ready to play sooner than that they could bring him back after week 5, 6, or 7 from the PUP list.  If they know he will be out past week 8 anyway that long they can stick him on IR whenever they want to now knowing they can bring him back when he's ready and not mess around with the complications, but the complications give flexibility.

 

The benefit of bringing him into the fold earlier in the year is you can get him going on the playbook and monitor his injury rehab.

 

edit: the point of this was that it doesn't force the Bills to cut anyone they don't want to cut to make space for OBJ until he's ready to play and by that point there's a pretty high likelihood that someone else will be put onto IR to swap spots and you'll also have 8-10+ more weeks to evaluate the bottom of the roster.  You also have the ability to release him from PUP if rehab isn't going well or if it's not working out, etc. Again, he wouldn't count against the 53 during that time.  He basically doesn't exist until he's ready to play.

Edited by That's No Moon
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19 minutes ago, Behindenemylines said:

I’m not saying I want this or anything but if we were to grab OBJ, how in the heck would we need to change the projected roster to fit him in?  
 

we are pretty loaded and seeing promise among our group of rookies.  Even with Crowder having a bit of a slump in game 1 I project him on the 53.
 

I don’t see room for OBJ without blowing up something.  What am I missing?  Looking to better minds than mine on this, because I do believe it’s very interesting for the SB push later in the season.  

First, as others have pointed out OBJ is a free agent and can choose where he wants to play.  His choice may not even come down to money because if Buffalo was his choice, it is very obvious that the Bills only could pay him a very limited salary.

 

I think I am with you though when it comes to this urgent need of the Buffalo Bills for an OBJ still recovering from off season surgery, which is being orchestrated by Von Miller.  I am not a Crowder fan so I don't even include him in the group of talented receivers who are on the roster on opening day but one of them would have to be released to make room for "a still recovering from serious surgery" OBJ.

 

Here's my WR order right now (And, I say keep 7):

1. Diggs

2. Davis

3. McKenzie

4. Shakir

5. Hodgins

6. Kumerow (Need his special teams skills)

7. Crowder

 

So, do we cut Shakir for OBJ?  Or maybe let's cut Gabe Davis.  Not going to let Diggs go but perhaps Hodgins or Kumerow or Crowder.  But whose targets does he get and when does he get into the game?

 

If we order the Bills receiving group's targets as:

 

Diggs #1

Davis #2

Dawson #3 (Can't leave the tight ends out of this discussion)

McKenzie #4

Shakir #5

Cook/Singletary/Moss #6

 

Where would OBJ fit in and whose targets would he take?  Can he still run down field and make the cuts after his surgery?  Will he be able to leap and get his toes precisely down inside the chalk? Or perhaps should we ask what team is going to scoop up the receiver we have to release to sign OBJ for basically this season only?  Will we regret it? Or which of the receivers whose targets go down will be unhappy and which of his teammates will be unhappy as well?

 

I just don't see any benefit of dreaming that the 2022 OBJ will be the preinjury OBJ or even have enough ability to justify disrupting the team midseason.

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12 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

Well, part of the benefit of signing him now is he could go onto the PUP list. He would count against the current 85 man limit but would NOT count against the final 53 man.  He could stay there until after week 4, then the team has 21 days to decide to activate him, put him on IR, or release him.  Since the NFL now allows teams to bring as many as 8 players back from IR they could put him on IR from the PUP and have to wait another 4 weeks at minimum to activate him.  All of this time he's not counting against the roster limit.

 

Sign him today, put him on the PUP list he's out until after week 4, then the team can either IR him immediately and be out until after week 8 or, if they think he'd be ready to play sooner than that they could bring him back after week 5, 6, or 7 from the PUP list.  If they know he will be out past week 8 anyway that long they can stick him on IR whenever they want to now knowing they can bring him back when he's ready and not mess around with the complications, but the complications give flexibility.

 

The benefit of bringing him into the fold earlier in the year is you can get him going on the playbook and monitor his injury rehab.

 

edit: the point of this was that it doesn't force the Bills to cut anyone they don't want to cut to make space for OBJ until he's ready to play and by that point there's a pretty high likelihood that someone else will be put onto IR to swap spots and you'll also have 8-10+ more weeks to evaluate the bottom of the roster.  You also have the ability to release him from PUP if rehab isn't going well or if it's not working out, etc. Again, he wouldn't count against the 53 during that time.  He basically doesn't exist until he's ready to play.

Thank you exactly what I was looking for with this scenario.  And if we have the cash I agree to grab him now.

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I get that OBJ is an elite talent, and would potentially make the team better.  I still have some difficulty with the fact that his presence would take away reps from young, promising receivers we've been waiting to for a while to break out: Gabriel Davis and Isaiah McKenzie.  Khalil Shakir is just a rookie, but what he's done has been impressive and fun to watch.  Even Isaiah Hodgins seems like a player who has shown enough that he deserves a shot to show what he can do on Sundays. (and now in prime time).  I know it is my own bias, but where possible, I like to see the home grown talent develop and shine.   Yes, the Bills signed Stephon Diggs when the receiving corps needed help, but now we've got home grown talent just begging for the chance to shine.  They will get less of a chance to shine if OBJ becomes a Bill.

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1 minute ago, shoretalk said:

First, as others have pointed out OBJ is a free agent and can choose where he wants to play.  His choice may not even come down to money because if Buffalo was his choice, it is very obvious that the Bills only could pay him a very limited salary.

 

I think I am with you though when it comes to this urgent need of the Buffalo Bills for an OBJ still recovering from off season surgery, which is being orchestrated by Von Miller.  I am not a Crowder fan so I don't even include him in the group of talented receivers who are on the roster on opening day but one of them would have to be released to make room for "a still recovering from serious surgery" OBJ.

 

Here's my WR order right now (And, I say keep 7):

1. Diggs

2. Davis

3. McKenzie

4. Shakir

5. Hodgins

6. Kumerow (Need his special teams skills)

7. Crowder

 

So, do we cut Shakir for OBJ?  Or maybe let's cut Gabe Davis.  Not going to let Diggs go but perhaps Hodgins or Kumerow or Crowder.  But whose targets does he get and when does he get into the game?

 

If we order the Bills receiving group's targets as:

 

Diggs #1

Davis #2

Dawson #3 (Can't leave the tight ends out of this discussion)

McKenzie #4

Shakir #5

Cook/Singletary/Moss #6

 

Where would OBJ fit in and whose targets would he take?  Can he still run down field and make the cuts after his surgery?  Will he be able to leap and get his toes precisely down inside the chalk? Or perhaps should we ask what team is going to scoop up the receiver we have to release to sign OBJ for basically this season only?  Will we regret it? Or which of the receivers whose targets go down will be unhappy and which of his teammates will be unhappy as well?

 

I just don't see any benefit of dreaming that the 2022 OBJ will be the preinjury OBJ or even have enough ability to justify disrupting the team midseason.

Thank you for the well thought out reply. I agree with your points as we have talent and talent wants touches.  If we can do what @that’snomoon states the only real downside outside of the locker room is handling OBJ if and when he’s healthy and the $.   

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1 minute ago, BigAl2526 said:

I get that OBJ is an elite talent, and would potentially make the team better.  I still have some difficulty with the fact that his presence would take away reps from young, promising receivers we've been waiting to for a while to break out: Gabriel Davis and Isaiah McKenzie.  Khalil Shakir is just a rookie, but what he's done has been impressive and fun to watch.  Even Isaiah Hodgins seems like a player who has shown enough that he deserves a shot to show what he can do on Sundays. (and now in prime time).  I know it is my own bias, but where possible, I like to see the home grown talent develop and shine.   Yes, the Bills signed Stephon Diggs when the receiving corps needed help, but now we've got home grown talent just begging for the chance to shine.  They will get less of a chance to shine if OBJ becomes a Bill.


He’s nowhere near ready to play now. So he’s not taking reps away from anyone, young or older. He also doesn’t cost a roster spot until he’s near ready to play. So again, even if signed tomorrow, not taking reps away. What if one of these promising young guys busts out? Gets in trouble? Injured for the year?

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43 minutes ago, Apocalypse Nuts said:

Just like your use of “an” before “FA”.  I’m a bit of a stickler for these things.  Also thiink your thinking is spot on.
 

Go Bills! That is all.  

 

41 minutes ago, FireChans said:

F is pronounced ef and thus “an” is correct vernacular. It’s a vowel sound. I took English in tenth grade. 

 

40 minutes ago, Apocalypse Nuts said:

Ya so frustrating how many others have forgotten that simple rule of the English language 

Just curious how Acronyms effect this. Because if you eliminate the acronym it just sounds terribly wrong. 
 

“because he’s an free agent” 

 

yeah. Idk. I didn’t take 10th grade English. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, mrags said:

 

 

Just curious how Acronyms effect this. Because if you eliminate the acronym it just sounds terribly wrong. 
 

“because he’s an free agent” 

 

yeah. Idk. I didn’t take 10th grade English. 

 

 

You are correct.  It changes things completely.  FA is a soft F because you say “eff” therefore requiring “an” before it.  If you say free specifically then it becomes a “hard” F thus requiring just an “a”.

 

 That’s how I remember it anyway.  As always,  I might be wrong.  But I think you can tell by how it flows as you are speaking.  I’m such “a” friggin nerd sometimes.

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19 minutes ago, mrags said:

 

 

Just curious how Acronyms effect this. Because if you eliminate the acronym it just sounds terribly wrong. 
 

“because he’s an free agent” 

 

yeah. Idk. I didn’t take 10th grade English. 

 

 

FA is pronounced eff-a. It has to do with vowel sounds, not vowels themselves. Vowels obviously cause vowel sounds.

 

"An observation" is proper because it's a vowel sound.

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45 minutes ago, BigAl2526 said:

I get that OBJ is an elite talent, and would potentially make the team better.  I still have some difficulty with the fact that his presence would take away reps from young, promising receivers we've been waiting to for a while to break out: Gabriel Davis and Isaiah McKenzie.  Khalil Shakir is just a rookie, but what he's done has been impressive and fun to watch.  Even Isaiah Hodgins seems like a player who has shown enough that he deserves a shot to show what he can do on Sundays. (and now in prime time).  I know it is my own bias, but where possible, I like to see the home grown talent develop and shine.   Yes, the Bills signed Stephon Diggs when the receiving corps needed help, but now we've got home grown talent just begging for the chance to shine.  They will get less of a chance to shine if OBJ becomes a Bill.

The #1 goal is to win a Super Bowl. OBJ gives me a better chance at that than to watch homegrown talent develop. 

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12 minutes ago, FireChans said:

FA is pronounced eff-a. It has to do with vowel sounds, not vowels themselves. Vowels obviously cause vowel sounds.

 

"An observation" is proper because it's a vowel sound.

Does anyone say “he’s an eff-aye”? I would still write “a FA”, because my reader voice reads that as “a free agent”. 

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10 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

The #1 goal is to win a Super Bowl. OBJ gives me a better chance at that than to watch homegrown talent develop. 

I can’t argue with you there.  Personally,  I am leaning towards the OBJ road.  I think he could be signed at a decent value point.  But WTF do I know. 
 

I do know for sure that I have not been this frogging excited for our Bills in about 3 frogging decades so these are really fun discussions to be having.

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We currently have a healthy Hodgins and Shakir, which is interesting, and both apparently look good, which is even more interesting. So far so good, fingers crossed. If that's healthy depth than I'm kind of failing to see the need, barring major injury. Definitely a nice to have, but I'd rather Diggs, Knox, and Gabe get the targets personally. If he's willing to play pretty extreme depth then of course.

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1 hour ago, Apocalypse Nuts said:

You are correct.  It changes things completely.  FA is a soft F because you say “eff” therefore requiring “an” before it.  If you say free specifically then it becomes a “hard” F thus requiring just an “a”.

 

 That’s how I remember it anyway.  As always,  I might be wrong.  But I think you can tell by how it flows as you are speaking.  I’m such “a” friggin nerd sometimes.

 

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

FA is pronounced eff-a. It has to do with vowel sounds, not vowels themselves. Vowels obviously cause vowel sounds.

 

"An observation" is proper because it's a vowel sound.

I just think it’s completely lazy to type FA as opposed to free agent. It’s 7 additional characters. And typing, that takes about 1-2 seconds at the most. Even with my fat fingers and my iPhone I can’t type that whole thing out in about 3 seconds at the most. 
 

laziness is destroying this nation. 

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50 minutes ago, Apocalypse Nuts said:

I can’t argue with you there.  Personally,  I am leaning towards the OBJ road.  I think he could be signed at a decent value point.  But WTF do I know. 

 

Jumping on this because it best explains my position and response to the win now mentality which I can't argue with either. In terms of a general roster add of course. I just don't really see where he fits in, or whether or not we start to cannibalize the offense with less targets for other, potentially even more dynamic players. I'm assuming he's going to want to be a pretty significant contributor of course. I think people are massively discounting Crowder, but I'd obviously rather have OBJ in the slot which he can do, but is he really going to want to get beat up like that at this point in his career? Something's just not adding up for me with our current healthy roster and a healthy OBJ who is going to want targets.

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I don’t get all this OBJ talk, I don’t see it happening. Von Miller started this because that’s his buddy but the Bills have already been down this road and passed. Rumor has it that former Giants’ GM Dave Gettleman offered him up to Beane before the Cleveland trade and Beane said thanks but no thanks. 
 

Unless there were an injury to the WR corp then there’s no need to bring OBJ to Buffalo imo. If I were Davis and/or McKenzie I wouldn’t be too appreciative of Miller blabbing about bringing him on while the Bills are still in the preseason, it’s actually kind of disrespectful. 

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We only have one consistent WR in his current role over the last few years in Diggs.  Everybody else is a projection.  We've never seen Davis with an extended workload as the true #2 WR.  McKenzie's most catches was 30 in 2020 and has to prove it he can shoulder an increased workload in the slot.  Crowder is too much of a wild card given he's been hobbled the last few years.  Shakir and Hodgins flashed this camp/preseason but they haven't done jack squat in the regular season.  They could both struggle once the real season begins. 

 

I can see a lot of scenarios (injuries, failing to live up to the hype) where an OBJ signing early in the season would be great insurance down the stretch.  I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger if he's still available after week 5 or so and we're confident he can come back from his ACL surgery.  That's assuming he knows what he signed up for.

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6 hours ago, Apocalypse Nuts said:

Too much young and emerging talent to risk losing right now 

God forbid the Bills jettison Jake Kumerow to find a spot for Odell Beckham Jr.

 

People, when OBJ was last on the field he was DOMINATING in the Super Bowl. He was well on his way to Super Bowl MVP before getting hurt. There are people here worried about him taking Jake Kumerow’s roster spot or about TAKING TARGETS AWAY FROM MCKENZIE & KNOX. I love those guys but, STOP!! Please stop!!! That’s beyond absurd. Beckham is a HOF talent, with proven production, on the biggest stage. You’d be getting him for pennies coming off the injury. If you REALLY think signing him is bad for the Bills, you’re lost. 

Edited by Kirby Jackson
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6 hours ago, FireChans said:

I figured that’s where we needed to start to help you understand lmao.

 

in reality, 1 single roster spot would be some bum STer or a 6th WR vs OBJ and wouldn’t constituting “blowing” anything up.  We aren’t gonna cut Josh or Tre to make room for OBJ. 
 

Second, OBJ is injured and you could IR him and not even need a roster spot until he returns. At which point someone may be hurt already. 


Exactly Chans.  I’m in the camp to buy his services earlier rather than later and IR him.  He’s a definite upgrade over Crowder once healthy and would probably mean less receptions for McKenzie in late November/December.  Having Diggs, Davis and OBJ is a daunting thought.  OBJ was impactful for the Rams when healthy.  
 

Id rather not wait it out as it increases the chances to outbid us.  Besides we have a world class training facility, and our trainers and doctors can assist with his rehab.  I’d make that a stipulation in his contract.  It also gives him two months in rehab to learn the playbook, and get to know Allen.  What Allen likes and not, so he can hit the ground running (no pun intended).

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