Brandon Beane Season Ending Presser Weds 1/27

[Reed83HOF]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It's not just "tweaking things around the margins" IMHO.  Addison and Hughes are both FA, as is Harrison Phillips and Butler.   Rookie replacements Rousseau, Epenesa, and Basham look like the "not ready for Prime Time" bunch as did Lotulelei the 2nd half of the season.  So, after using one 1st and 2 2nd round picks on DL in the last 2 seasons, we're in the place of still having to re-build our DL.

This is why we will likely go the UFA or trade route for the DL, I don't see us spending an early pick on DL and have to wait for more development. A splashy move via trade would be great imo and is possible if someone shakes free and the value is there as far as compensation. This is unlikely right now though...

[st pete gogolak]

All this hand-wringing as to what we need to do in the offseason is nuts.  Name two teams you'd rather be heading into the offseason.  Realistic projections for offense and defense for next year WITHOUT making any moves other than resigning a couple of our own free agents and not considering the draft.  Offense:  Davis - Diggs - Beasley or McKenzie - Knox - Dawkins - Bates - Morse - D. Williams - Brown - Allen - Singletary.  Defense: Rousseau - Oliver - Phillips or Star - Basham or AJE - Milano - Edmunds or replacement - Poyer - Hyde - White (midseason) - Jackson - Wallace or replacement.  I think we're in great shape with some tinkering, especially in secondary.  

[Reed83HOF]

11 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

A general comment: yes, there is going to be some turnover on D, but the Bills defense was very, very good this season. Yes, they beat up on some bad teams, but all good teams beat up on bad teams. And their schedule wasn't inordinately easy either - of their 17 games, they played 9 teams with winning records.

Could you imagine the work that would have to be done to overhaul the defense into an attacking aggressive style some on here want? You would waste 2 to 3 seasons.

 

The defense is good enough with a couple tweaks. I'd load up more on offense in order to never have to worry about punting lol

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, st pete gogolak said:

All this hand-wringing as to what we need to do in the offseason is nuts.  Name two teams you'd rather be heading into the offseason.  Realistic projections for offense and defense for next year WITHOUT making any moves other than resigning a couple of our own free agents and not considering the draft.  Offense:  Davis - Diggs - Beasley or McKenzie - Knox - Dawkins - Bates - Morse - D. Williams - Brown - Allen - Singletary.  Defense: Rousseau - Oliver - Phillips or Star - Basham or AJE - Milano - Edmunds or replacement - Poyer - Hyde - White (midseason) - Jackson - Wallace or replacement.  I think we're in great shape with some tinkering, especially in secondary.  

Yes. The Bills are in good shape roster-wise. They need a corner upgrade, but the defensive roster is very good overall. 

[appoo]

1 minute ago, st pete gogolak said:

All this hand-wringing as to what we need to do in the offseason is nuts.  Name two teams you'd rather be heading into the offseason.  Realistic projections for offense and defense for next year WITHOUT making any moves other than resigning a couple of our own free agents and not considering the draft.  Offense:  Davis - Diggs - Beasley or McKenzie - Knox - Dawkins - Bates - Morse - D. Williams - Brown - Allen - Singletary.  Defense: Rousseau - Oliver - Phillips or Star - Basham or AJE - Milano - Edmunds or replacement - Poyer - Hyde - White (midseason) - Jackson - Wallace or replacement.  I think we're in great shape with some tinkering, especially in secondary.  

Agree that the Bills don't need an overhaul. I would much rather the Coaches re-evaluate some of their schematic stuff, and then add a piece or two on either side, that adds something they don't have already. 

 

I keep harping on it, but speed in the back 7 and in the offensive skill set is that one last thing.

[dave mcbride]

Just now, Reed83HOF said:

Could you imagine the work that would have to be done to overhaul the defense into an attacking aggressive style some on here want? You would waste 2 to 3 seasons.

 

The defense is good enough with a couple tweaks. I'd load up more on offense in order to never have to worry about punting lol

I know I'll take heat from some, but I'll take my chances on an excellent interior lineman and an excellent WR being available in rounds 2-3. I am not confident a good CB will be there, and if there is a talented CB available who they believe in for their scheme, then that's the way I'd go.

[Reed83HOF]

3 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I know I'll take heat from some, but I'll take my chances on an excellent interior lineman and an excellent WR being available in rounds 2-3. I am not confident a good CB will be there, and if there is a talented CB available who they believe in for their scheme, then that's the way I'd go.

Beane basically said they plan on looking outside at CB, go right down the teams with a bad cap situation for trade targets and scour the UFA list. I think we spend some of the 23% total cap percentage on dl this past season to cbs this year.

 

In the salary cap Era, you either have a great front 4 (or 7) or you have a great backfield, you rarely see teams with both. For us, we are the great backfield team.

 

IOL is a big area to improve on, I could see a move on Norwell, to further solidify the line. That move depends on the feelings regarding Bates as a full time starter and if they try to get some money back from Williams. Thankfully Bates is an RFA, but we need to keep an eye on the center position as well. I think Spencer Brown will continue to get better. 

 

As far as WR goes, I haven't looked to the draft or players yet, but now would be the time to get the speedy slot replacement on board and learning the route trees, reading the d and changing their routes based on what they see and reading it the same as Josh. Need that replacement here learning asap

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, CincyBillsFan said:

My sense is that the Bills need to learn to live with what they have on defense and throw everything at the offense.  This is what the Chiefs have done and they're going to a 4th straight AFC Championship game.

 

Historically, I've been beating the drum myself that we need more top-quality investment on offense - pointing out that we only have 1 starting first round pick on offense (2 if you count what we traded for Diggs), but 7 on defense (counting both the 4 we drafted and the 3 we signed as FA)

 

Factually, I don't understand how you contend that the Chiefs have "learned to live with what they have on defense and thrown everything at the offense". 

First of all, they traded for Melvin Ingram mid-season.  They paid a pittance ($600k and a 6th round pick) and he definitely improved their D.  The point is, they were willing to look at their D and say "you know what, it's not good enough, we need to make a move", not "we got to learn to live with what we have".  That is, in fact, what the Bills said, including after we lost our star Tre White to IR.

 

Second of all, in terms of cap, the Bills have the 2nd most cap devoted to DL this season at $43.5M. 

 

Guess who is #1?   KANSAS CITY, at $46.4.  KC also has the 4th highest spend in the league at DB.  Both of those tell us that KC has been aggressive in making additions to improve their D. 

 

KC has also used a lot of their top draft picks on D.  Obviously, they used a first on Mahomes in 2017 as well as their 2018 first round pick, and they traded their 2021 1st round for Orlando Brown.  But they traded their 2019 1st round pick for Frank Clark, a big investment in D.  They used their 2nd round pick on D in 2017; their top oick (2nd), 2 3rds, and 4th in 2018; one of their 2 2nd rounds (no first, remember) and their 3rd in 2019 (no 4th); their 2nd and 4th in 2020 and 2021 (again, no 1st in 2021).  They have invested at least as many recent top draft picks on D as the Bills have.

 

I would have to say that is NOT what the Chiefs have done.

 

20 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

This is why we will likely go the UFA or trade route for the DL, I don't see us spending an early pick on DL and have to wait for more development. A splashy move via trade would be great imo and is possible if someone shakes free and the value is there as far as compensation. This is unlikely right now though...

 

On the one hand, this makes sense to me - we need to bring in some guys where we "know what we got".

 

On the other hand, UFAs in FA don't come cheap

 

On the third hand, one of the major feedback McDermott got when he was fired in Philly was "you have to make sure your guys buy in".  It's a repeated theme - last season some of the D who were interviewed said "guys are bought in now" (implying maybe some weren't, earlier).  I think it's almost a paralyzing fear to McDermott at times when considering mid-season improvements or free agent signings. 

 

It's the reason, I think, we perceive him as favoring guys he knows (ie, ex-Panthers)

[Toyo321]

7 hours ago, Turbo44 said:

Milano and Edmunds have been atrocious?? Wow that’s a bit rough 

Bad time for the LBs to play terribly

Matt Milano and Tremaine Edmunds have been mainstays in the Buffalo defense for five and four years, respectively. They almost never come off the field, for good reason. But in playing all 76 snaps in this game, they were just awful.

Milano, one of the Bills consistently best players, graded out dead last among the 17 players who played on defense per Pro Football Focus. PFF had him giving up seven receptions on seven targets for 76 yards including the 25-yarder to Travis Kelce that set up the tying field goal, and then the game-winning TD to Kelce.

 

Edmunds graded out 16th as he allowed 10 receptions on 11 targets for 108 yards including 54 yards after the catch.

On the outside, Levi Wallace, perhaps playing his final game for the Bills, gave up 130 yards on six targets, five of which were completed. Ninety of that was after the catch, the big one being Tyreek Hill’s 64-yard catch and run TD.

On Kansas City’s final 15 plays, it averaged 12.9 yards and scored two TDs and a field goal against what was supposed to be the NFL’s best defense.

“It’s just an unfortunate situation that we were in, that things didn’t go our way,” Edmunds said.

 

I rest my case..... Quoted from below

 

https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/sports/football/nfl/bills/2022/01/25/buffalo-bills-loss-chiefs-looks-bad-days-after-sals-thoughts/9204234002/

 

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Toyo321

[Saint Doug]

33 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

Beane basically said they plan on looking outside at CB, go right down the teams with a bad cap situation for trade targets and scour the UFA list. I think we spend some of the 23% total cap percentage on dl this past season to cbs this year.

 

In the salary cap Era, you either have a great front 4 (or 7) or you have a great backfield, you rarely see teams with both. For us, we are the great backfield team.

 

IOL is a big area to improve on, I could see a move on Norwell, to further solidify the line. That move depends on the feelings regarding Bates as a full time starter and if they try to get some money back from Williams. Thankfully Bates is an RFA, but we need to keep an eye on the center position as well. I think Spencer Brown will continue to get better. 

 

As far as WR goes, I haven't looked to the draft or players yet, but now would be the time to get the speedy slot replacement on board and learning the route trees, reading the d and changing their routes based on what they see and reading it the same as Josh. Need that replacement here learning asap

If they want to go outside for their CB, it’s best to draft one. This is usually a position where any level of competence breaks the bank to sign one in FA. We likely can’t afford to sign a $15M corner and most of the time, a similarly talented CB can be drafted for much less. 
 

In contrast, interior linemen don’t cost an arm and a leg. Would like for them to look in FA to fill this role. 
 

Agree on the WR. We have groomed Davis very well. We need to groom another. Someone as fast as hell. 

[st pete gogolak]

12 minutes ago, Toyo321 said:

Bad time for the LBs to play terribly

Matt Milano and Tremaine Edmunds have been mainstays in the Buffalo defense for five and four years, respectively. They almost never come off the field, for good reason. But in playing all 76 snaps in this game, they were just awful.

Milano, one of the Bills consistently best players, graded out dead last among the 17 players who played on defense per Pro Football Focus. PFF had him giving up seven receptions on seven targets for 76 yards including the 25-yarder to Travis Kelce that set up the tying field goal, and then the game-winning TD to Kelce.

 

Edmunds graded out 16th as he allowed 10 receptions on 11 targets for 108 yards including 54 yards after the catch.

On the outside, Levi Wallace, perhaps playing his final game for the Bills, gave up 130 yards on six targets, five of which were completed. Ninety of that was after the catch, the big one being Tyreek Hill’s 64-yard catch and run TD.

On Kansas City’s final 15 plays, it averaged 12.9 yards and scored two TDs and a field goal against what was supposed to be the NFL’s best defense.

“It’s just an unfortunate situation that we were in, that things didn’t go our way,” Edmunds said.

 

I rest my case.....

Milano gave up the 25 yarder to Kelce?  That must be news to Levi Wallace.

Oh, and agree that Edmunds was useless and atrocious in the game.

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Historically, I've been beating the drum myself that we need more top-quality investment on offense - pointing out that we only have 1 starting first round pick on offense (2 if you count what we traded for Diggs), but 7 on defense (counting both the 4 we drafted and the 3 we signed as FA)

 

Factually, I don't understand how you contend that the Chiefs have "learned to live with what they have on defense and thrown everything at the offense". 

First of all, they traded for Melvin Ingram mid-season.  They paid a pittance ($600k and a 6th round pick) and he definitely improved their D.  The point is, they were willing to look at their D and say "you know what, it's not good enough, we need to make a move", not "we got to learn to live with what we have".  That is, in fact, what the Bills said, including after we lost our star Tre White to IR.

 

Second of all, in terms of cap, the Bills have the 2nd most cap devoted to DL this season at $43.5M. 

 

Guess who is #1?   KANSAS CITY, at $46.4.  KC also has the 4th highest spend in the league at DB.  Both of those tell us that KC has been aggressive in making additions to improve their D. 

 

KC has also used a lot of their top draft picks on D.  Obviously, they used a first on Mahomes in 2017 as well as their 2018 first round pick, and they traded their 2021 1st round for Orlando Brown.  But they traded their 2019 1st round pick for Frank Clark, a big investment in D.  They used their 2nd round pick on D in 2017; their top oick (2nd), 2 3rds, and 4th in 2018; one of their 2 2nd rounds (no first, remember) and their 3rd in 2019 (no 4th); their 2nd and 4th in 2020 and 2021 (again, no 1st in 2021).  They have invested at least as many recent top draft picks on D as the Bills have.

 

I would have to say that is NOT what the Chiefs have done.

 

 

 

The Chiefs had a lot of the key elements of their offense in place by 2017 with both Kelce & Hill on the team. The fact that they have retained both those elite level offensive players while also signing Mahomes to a big contract shows where they put their emphasis.

 

When I talked about how the Chiefs did it I needed to be clearer in what I meant.  They don't so much ignore their D, since as you point out they grabbed Ingram, as much as it seems to me they are more interested in optimizing their offense. Sure they'll grab defensive talent when it's available but their emphasis sure looks like it's on the offense.

 

They rebuilt their entire O - line in the off season and used a 1st round pick on a RB when that was a need.

 

From what I can see, over their run the Chiefs have used their offense, not their defense to win games. The Bills clearly relied on their defense through the 2019 season and their takeaway from the 2020 season appeared to me to be "gee it's nice the offense got better but if we're going to beat the Chiefs we need to improve on defense."  And last years off season seemed focused a lot more on the Bills defense then it's offense.

 

So all I'm saying is that going forward the mind set of the Bills should be that the offense will win us a championship.  And they need to act accordingly in the off season. Allen is the X factor that must shift the priority to the offense. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

43 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

The Chiefs had a lot of the key elements of their offense in place by 2017 with both Kelce & Hill on the team. The fact that they have retained both those elite level offensive players while also signing Mahomes to a big contract shows where they put their emphasis.

 

When I talked about how the Chiefs did it I needed to be clearer in what I meant.  They don't so much ignore their D, since as you point out they grabbed Ingram, as much as it seems to me they are more interested in optimizing their offense. Sure they'll grab defensive talent when it's available but their emphasis sure looks like it's on the offense.

 

It can seem that way to you.  I think there's an element of truth but overall that's a faulty perception.  They care about both, and that's why they're not Green Bay.

Perhaps I'll put out the bat-signal for @Zerovoltz to weigh in here.  It should be noted (you may not know) that I live in St Louis.  I am not and have never been a fan of any MO football team, but since the Lambs departed for LA, a lot of people here have taken up Chiefs fandom and there's a lot of local coverage of the Chiefs moves.  So I hear a lot about them whether I want to or don't.

 

First, context that the Chiefs have been a perennial playoff team since 2013, when Reid took over.  From 2013 to 2021, they've missed 1 year.  With Smith as their QB they never went beyond the Division round (and in fact Tony Dungy at one point opined that with Reid as their coach they never would.)

 

They did this by paying attention to both offense and defense, and in fact a lot of the key elements of their defense were also in place by 2017.  For example, Chris Jones was drafted by them in 2016.  Daniel Sorenson, who at 32 has lost a step and his starting job this season, was signed undrafted by them in 2014 and was a key piece for them at FS in 2016-2017 (when he led the team in tackles).  I think it's fair to say that early in Reid's tenure, the Chiefs were probably a bit more focused on winning with a strong defense and "enough" offense, and that by 2017 (still with Smith under center) this changed.

 

But they have continued to put substantial resources into defense.  It's not just going out to trade for Ingram in the middle of the season.  In 2018, they drafted Nnadi who is still playing DT for them and signed Charvarius Ward.  In 2019, they traded their 1st round pick for Frank Clark from the Seahawks.  They also totally re-worked their secondary: they drafted Thornhill to replace Sorenson at S, they signed Tyrann Mathieu to a big FA contract as their SS. In 2020, they signed Chris Jones to a hefty extension. 

 

2019 was probably the biggest infusion of defensive resources for them, because they moved on from long-time DC Bob Sutton to Steve Spagnuolo after they lost the AFCCG with the 24th ranked D, and they decided (pay attention) they needed better D to contend.  Since then they haven't had a top D, but it's consistently top-10.

 

KC pretty much had to re-do the OL last season because they really hadn't put much investment in it since 2015 or so.  They drafted Eric Fisher at LT in the 1st in 2013 and Mitch Morse in the 2nd in 2015 (but decided they could move on from him in 2019 when they put the big resources into the D), and that was about the last significant investment on OL and it pretty well bit them on the butt in the Superbowl last year, so they had to do something - and they did.

 

43 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

From what I can see, over their run the Chiefs have used their offense, not their defense to win games. The Bills clearly relied on their defense through the 2019 season and their takeaway from the 2020 season appeared to me to be "gee it's nice the offense got better but if we're going to beat the Chiefs we need to improve on defense."  And last years off season seemed focused a lot more on the Bills defense then it's offense.

 

So my first question to you is, "what do you mean by their run for KC?  Because as I said, KC has been a perennial playoff team since 2013, and it was clear (if you go to pro-football-reference and look up the franchise history you'll see, look at points for and against) that from 2013-2017 or so, they were leaning on their D.  From 2018 (with Smith at QB) the O was the better unit

 

But they have still made substantial investments in D, especially in 2019 when they changed coordinators.

 

43 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

So all I'm saying is that going forward the mind set of the Bills should be that the offense will win us a championship.  And they need to act accordingly in the off season. Allen is the X factor that must shift the priority to the offense.

 

If you started out saying that the mindset should be, offense will win us a championship, see that the offense always has what it needs - I agree with you.  I don't want to see our OL short-shirted and 1 playable TE on the roster to funnel ever more resources to the D.  So if that's what you mean, I agree with you.

 

But initially you said:

"My sense is that the Bills need to learn to live with what they have on defense and throw everything at the offense.  This is what the Chiefs have done and they're going to a 4th straight AFC Championship game."

 

And that is absolutely NOT what the Chiefs have done, not at all.  They have continued to make significant investments on both sides of the ball.  And in fact, the Chiefs looked at the roster after they lost the AFCCG in 2018 and said "D not good enough!" and made major changes.

 

[Zerovoltz]

@Hapless Bills Fan @CincyBillsFan

 

I saw the bat signal.

 

Hapless is spot on here.

 

KC tries to put the best O AND D it can field, and has spent huge resources on D...and I'm pretty sure, for the last several seasons, have spent more on their defense than the have on offense.

 

Hapless did a good job of covering this subject in depth, so I'm not going to write a book here....but I would like to point out that KC CLEARLY is in the camp of having a Stars and Jags roster composition.

 

By that I mean...they are not averse at all to dole out HUGE contracts to players they consider key contributors.  Chris Jones, Honey Badger, Sammy Watkins, Hill, Kelce (who signed at a bit of a discount) Hitchens, Frank Clark.

 

Not every deal they make has worked out to its optimal best.  Sammy was Sammy, hurt alot...didn't put up huge numbers....pretty good when he did play.  Clark has been unable to live up to his contract, but he's been at his best in postseason games.  Hitchens....is HORRIFICALY bad.

 

This offseason, that general idea, isn't going to change...they'll move on from Clark and Hitchens...and quite possibly badger.  They will dole out big money to Orlando Brown in the form of a tag or contract.

 

They'll see if they can find a contract that works for badger and the team...but I am inclined to think they move on.  They will certainly try and sign Ingram up again.

 

The team, rightly or wrongly....also relies on Mahomes to make the difference for holes in the roster....again, as opinted out by hapless...their lack of investment in the line, came back to bite them when they were down to 2nds and 3rd stringers in the Super Bowl....before the injuries..KC had basically a 1/1 drafted player at LT...then 3 interior linemen who were ALL scrap heap guys, then journeymen at RT once Schwartz had to hang it up after a couple games to start the year.  That interior line SUCKED when it was healthy and sucked ever worse when they had to replace barely adequate scrap heap dudes with bad scrap heap dudes.  They were FINE with those cheap bargain bin dudes inside becaused Mahomes could still operate and so they spent that money elsewhere.

 

Veach's first draft was AWFUL...his second one was better, and this last draft...he hit it out of the park.

 

KC is will pay big for key contributoers and rely on a combo of above average drafting, and Mahomes ability to hide some deficiencies.

 

I'm not trying to make an argument that this is the best way to do things, etc...just telling you that 

 

A) KC invests in D every bit as much as O

and B) KC will pay about 10 dudes HUGE money and fill it in with cheap draft picks, scrap heap dudes, and also an intentional and puproseful idea, that Mahomes makes up for some shortcomings in talent in spots.

 

KC is TRYING every year to field a no.1 D...that is their goal and they make moves to try to get that to happen.  IT's not an afterthought.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

@Hapless Bills Fan @CincyBillsFan

I saw the bat signal.

Hapless is spot on here.

 

Thanks

 

20 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

KC tries to put the best O AND D it can field, and has spent huge resources on D...and I'm pretty sure, for the last several seasons, have spent more on their defense than the have on offense.

 

I think that's been true, but there's not a lot of meaning to be inferred from it on priorities: this is also the first year that the Chiefs offense has substantially outspent the defense, but this is also the first year that Mahomes new salary has really hit.

 

Thanks for the insight on the stars-and-jags model

 

20 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

A) KC invests in D every bit as much as O

and B) KC will pay about 10 dudes HUGE money and fill it in with cheap draft picks, scrap heap dudes, and also an intentional and puproseful idea, that Mahomes makes up for some shortcomings in talent in spots.

 

KC is TRYING every year to field a no.1 D...that is their goal and they make moves to try to get that to happen.  IT's not an afterthought.  

 

I'm not sure they're trying for the #1 D, but it's clearly a priority to stay in the top 10 defenses, and they're willing to shake things up and invest what they need to stay there.  I kind of thought they were crazy to make the moves they made in 2019 after getting so close, but in hindsight they were crazy like foxes.

 

As confirmation of what you say, I did a quick scan of the Chiefs top cap hits for 2021.  Of the top 9 contracts, 5 are on defense: DE Clark, S Mathieu, LB Hitchens, DT Jones, and DT Reed.  4 are on offense: Hill, Kelce, Mahomes, and G Joe Thuney.  The 10th is their kicker.

 

So not only are there roughly equal top-contracts on D and O, but 3 of the 5 top defensive contracts are on the DL.

[Zerovoltz]

I can't really confirm this, but it is discussed in some circles that KC/Spags believes in a certain CB profile, that they think they can find cheaply enough.  I don't know if it's true or not, but they don't pay CBs.  They go and get scrap heap dudes or late round drafted guys that fit their formula. 

 

I don't know if that's true or not, but KC's corners I think, also is the cheapest group of CBs in the leauge.  Ward, Fenton, Sneed, Baker, Hughes.  Very low dollars spent there.  Spags plays alot of man and they rely on the scheme and safeties to be right.

 

Ward is a UFA....I'd love for them to keep him, but they simply aren't going to spend money at that spot....further evidence of this is that they just signed Arnette...the former Raiders first round pick CB to a futures deal.  They collect these guys.  Baker, Hughes and Arnette..all former round 1 CB's from the heap.  

[dave mcbride]

25 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

I can't really confirm this, but it is discussed in some circles that KC/Spags believes in a certain CB profile, that they think they can find cheaply enough.  I don't know if it's true or not, but they don't pay CBs.  They go and get scrap heap dudes or late round drafted guys that fit their formula. 

 

I don't know if that's true or not, but KC's corners I think, also is the cheapest group of CBs in the leauge.  Ward, Fenton, Sneed, Baker, Hughes.  Very low dollars spent there.  Spags plays alot of man and they rely on the scheme and safeties to be right.

 

Ward is a UFA....I'd love for them to keep him, but they simply aren't going to spend money at that spot....further evidence of this is that they just signed Arnette...the former Raiders first round pick CB to a futures deal.  They collect these guys.  Baker, Hughes and Arnette..all former round 1 CB's from the heap.  

I will say this, Zero -- if the Bills had won that game, a lot of critics would have targeted KC's terrible CB play in that game. The final TD to Davis was ridiculous -- no WR who is having that kind of game should be able to exploit a seam that's parted like the Red Sea in a must-pass and must-score situation. The CBs just about cost them that game. Mahomes, Hill, and Kelce baled them out.

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Zerovoltz said:

@Hapless Bills Fan @CincyBillsFan

 

I saw the bat signal.

 

Hapless is spot on here.

 

KC tries to put the best O AND D it can field, and has spent huge resources on D...and I'm pretty sure, for the last several seasons, have spent more on their defense than the have on offense.

 

Hapless did a good job of covering this subject in depth, so I'm not going to write a book here....but I would like to point out that KC CLEARLY is in the camp of having a Stars and Jags roster composition.

 

By that I mean...they are not averse at all to dole out HUGE contracts to players they consider key contributors.  Chris Jones, Honey Badger, Sammy Watkins, Hill, Kelce (who signed at a bit of a discount) Hitchens, Frank Clark.

 

Not every deal they make has worked out to its optimal best.  Sammy was Sammy, hurt alot...didn't put up huge numbers....pretty good when he did play.  Clark has been unable to live up to his contract, but he's been at his best in postseason games.  Hitchens....is HORRIFICALY bad.

 

This offseason, that general idea, isn't going to change...they'll move on from Clark and Hitchens...and quite possibly badger.  They will dole out big money to Orlando Brown in the form of a tag or contract.

 

They'll see if they can find a contract that works for badger and the team...but I am inclined to think they move on.  They will certainly try and sign Ingram up again.

 

The team, rightly or wrongly....also relies on Mahomes to make the difference for holes in the roster....again, as opinted out by hapless...their lack of investment in the line, came back to bite them when they were down to 2nds and 3rd stringers in the Super Bowl....before the injuries..KC had basically a 1/1 drafted player at LT...then 3 interior linemen who were ALL scrap heap guys, then journeymen at RT once Schwartz had to hang it up after a couple games to start the year.  That interior line SUCKED when it was healthy and sucked ever worse when they had to replace barely adequate scrap heap dudes with bad scrap heap dudes.  They were FINE with those cheap bargain bin dudes inside becaused Mahomes could still operate and so they spent that money elsewhere.

 

Veach's first draft was AWFUL...his second one was better, and this last draft...he hit it out of the park.

 

KC is will pay big for key contributoers and rely on a combo of above average drafting, and Mahomes ability to hide some deficiencies.

 

I'm not trying to make an argument that this is the best way to do things, etc...just telling you that 

 

A) KC invests in D every bit as much as O

and B) KC will pay about 10 dudes HUGE money and fill it in with cheap draft picks, scrap heap dudes, and also an intentional and puproseful idea, that Mahomes makes up for some shortcomings in talent in spots.

 

KC is TRYING every year to field a no.1 D...that is their goal and they make moves to try to get that to happen.  IT's not an afterthought.  

If that's the case then they have been a whole lot more successful on the offensive side of the ball then the defensive side no? 

 

And saying that KC tries to put the best offense and defensive on the field is what EVERY GM will say.  And to the extent that the CAP allows and their ability to pick players enable them to do it, every team will try to do it.  But I still say that KC is an offensive minded team first and foremost.  And that starts with their head coach.

 

IMO the Bills came into this playoff game with a plan to try to "control" Mahomes and the flow of the game.  And this was the fundamental mistake that prevented them from winning in spite of Allen's brilliant play.  Had they gone into the game with a plan to unleash Allen and outscore the Chefs they would've won IMO.   The Bills wasted 3 valuable possessions adopting a non-offensive mindset.  The Chiefs only had one of these offensively conservative possessions and that was when they were backed up at their own 1 yard line.

 

So maybe it's more of an attitude then a listing of players on O & D.  But it comes down to McD being a defensive coach and AR being an offensive coach. And I continue to believe that the Bills with Allen require that McD become more like Reid.

 

 

[Zerovoltz]

18 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I will say this, Zero -- if the Bills had won that game, a lot of critics would have targeted KC's terrible CB play in that game. The final TD to Davis was ridiculous -- no WR who is having that kind of game should be able to exploit a seam that's parted like the Red Sea in a must-pass and must-score situation. The CBs just about cost them that game. Mahomes, Hill, and Kelce baled them out.

 

One of the problems with this way of roster building, is you rely A TON, on honey badger.  I am sure you noticed, like I did, how the KC secondary was lost out there.  They aren't that good (they were a better group last year when Breeland was one of the starters...also cheap) 

 

Too much emphasis on the safety making the call

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

First, context that the Chiefs have been a perennial playoff team since 2013, when Reid took over.  From 2013 to 2021, they've missed 1 year.  With Smith as their QB they never went beyond the Division round (and in fact Tony Dungy at one point opined that with Reid as their coach they never would.)

 

They did this by paying attention to both offense and defense, and in fact a lot of the key elements of their defense were also in place by 2017.  For example, Chris Jones was drafted by them in 2016.  Daniel Sorenson, who at 32 has lost a step and his starting job this season, was signed undrafted by them in 2014 and was a key piece for them at FS in 2016-2017 (when he led the team in tackles).  I think it's fair to say that early in Reid's tenure, the Chiefs were probably a bit more focused on winning with a strong defense and "enough" offense, and that by 2017 (still with Smith under center) this changed.

 

But the Chiefs didn't jump to super team status until they had Mahomes and could unleash their offense to its fullest potential.

 

Maybe we're just arguing at cross purposes.  I am all for spending resources on the D especially if the right player is available.  And I fully acknowledge that KC has a couple of studs on their D.  I just believe that when resources are tight they should tilt towards the offensive side of the ball because in Allen they have the same elite QB play as the Chiefs do.

 

And reading you and Z's take makes me wonder if what I'm seeing has more to do with an attitude then assembling players on one side of the ball or the other.  But my eyes don't lie and the Bills & Chiefs appear to approach offense very differently in spite of having the two best QB's in the NFL. Maybe going forward it's as simple as turning Allen truly lose.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

56 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I will say this, Zero -- if the Bills had won that game, a lot of critics would have targeted KC's terrible CB play in that game. The final TD to Davis was ridiculous -- no WR who is having that kind of game should be able to exploit a seam that's parted like the Red Sea in a must-pass and must-score situation. The CBs just about cost them that game. Mahomes, Hill, and Kelce baled them out.

 

They were missing Matthieu when he went out with his concussion.  It allowed the Bills to put Beasley in on something like 23 out of 26 snaps in the 4Q.

It's time for the Chiefs to bid Sorenson good night.

 

That said - the Chiefs went into that game saying "no matter what, Allen to Diggs is not going to beat us".

 

Davis caught them by surprise because he hadn't been a huge factor in any but one game this season.  In fact, in the 2nd NYJ game he had 14 targets and 3 receptions, because he torched them for 103 yds in the first game and the Jets were like "cover that guy!".

 

So KC really didn't have a good plan to lock down both Diggs and Davis.

 

When a QB can throw with that much anticipation and trust in his WR, and the WR shows up, it's pretty hard to defend, especially when you have your best guys locking down someone else.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

25 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

But the Chiefs didn't jump to super team status until they had Mahomes and could unleash their offense to its fullest potential.

 

Absolutely no argument there

 

25 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Maybe we're just arguing at cross purposes.  I am all for spending resources on the D especially if the right player is available.  And I fully acknowledge that KC has a couple of studs on their D.  I just believe that when resources are tight they should tilt towards the offensive side of the ball because in Allen they have the same elite QB play as the Chiefs do.

 

I want more resources on O myself.  As I said up-thread - I've been banging the drum that look, we have one 1st round pick on offense - maybe 2 if you count the trade for Diggs - and 4 1st round picks we drafted plus 3 additional 1st round picks we signed on defense. 

 

I think the key point of disagreement is with the idea that KC doesn't concern themselves with maintaining a strong D that, as you said  "the Bills need to learn to live with what they have on defense and throw everything at the offense.  This is what the Chiefs have done".   I think that:

1) that's a misunderstanding of what the Chiefs have done

2) it's a bad idea - I think GB kind of went that route, and it squibbed on them.  The year that GB won the SB, they had the #10 offense and #2 defense.  After that, they went in on O and had #1, #8, #5, #1 offense - but D slipped to the bottom half of the league, #11 and #13 at best, and they got washed out earlier in the playoffs.

 

25 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

And reading you and Z's take makes me wonder if what I'm seeing has more to do with an attitude then assembling players on one side of the ball or the other.  But my eyes don't lie and the Bills & Chiefs appear to approach offense very differently in spite of having the two best QB's in the NFL. Maybe going forward it's as simple as turning Allen truly lose.

 

I don't know.  I think that Daboll is actually still developing as a football mind, and Reid (and maybe Bienemy) is there, for one thing.  Daboll's situation play calling is still strange to me at times.  Like, we're succeeding moving the ball downfield with a crisp passing game, and we get a turnover and he decides that's the right time to haul out a couple of gadget plays, or run it 3x in a row.  I feel as though he's improving, but I still have the hunch that several times during the season McDermott has to sit him down and say "Look, as a former defensive coordinator, I'm telling you: this is what I see in your offense and how I'm going to counter it defensively, and this is why you're seeing what's happening, and you need to change.  Now."

 

Maybe I'm wrong

[Reed83HOF]

6 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

On the one hand, this makes sense to me - we need to bring in some guys where we "know what we got".

 

On the other hand, UFAs in FA don't come cheap

 

On the third hand, one of the major feedback McDermott got when he was fired in Philly was "you have to make sure your guys buy in".  It's a repeated theme - last season some of the D who were interviewed said "guys are bought in now" (implying maybe some weren't, earlier).  I think it's almost a paralyzing fear to McDermott at times when considering mid-season improvements or free agent signings. 

 

It's the reason, I think, we perceive him as favoring guys he knows (ie, ex-Panthers)

Upfront and starting out, I entirely agree with bringing in guys you know. The AB "trade" was them feeling the locker room was strong enough to be able to handle a "star" like that.

 

If all things are equal with the players and it comes down to one you know and one you don't, I get it. I also believe that if we swing at a great IOL FA Norwell has the leg up over Scherff (although the Rivera connection is there).

 

I also mention this since we swung the Diggs trade to get an established WR for the offense. Hunter could be available, or dare I even look at NO who is $70m above the cap or GB who may lose Z. Smith is they keep Adams. There can be some deals to be had on any of the 9 teams getting a new HC and/or GM and the severely cap strapped teams.

 

I know this is preaching to the choir, but the difference now and back in his Philly days can also now be viewed as a young DC who didn't command respect from his players due to being so green and young, that's not necessarily true now. This entirely could be burnt into his psyche, but the passage of years and his experience does change that...

 

 

6 hours ago, Saint Doug said:

If they want to go outside for their CB, it’s best to draft one. This is usually a position where any level of competence breaks the bank to sign one in FA. We likely can’t afford to sign a $15M corner and most of the time, a similarly talented CB can be drafted for much less. 
 

In contrast, interior linemen don’t cost an arm and a leg. Would like for them to look in FA to fill this role. 
 

Agree on the WR. We have groomed Davis very well. We need to groom another. Someone as fast as hell. 

Beane seemingly hinted at the FA route for CB, you have to guard against Tre's return as well. What I find interesting is that they seem to be willing to let Levi walk and he is likely to get overpaid, but yet we are still filling CB2. Makes me wonder what they think of him as a player if they are willing to change him out. It just feels like if that is the case, you might as well spend a bit more to grab someone who you feel is better.

 

Norwell makes a lot of sense and I still think we draft one or 2

[Scott7975]

16 hours ago, davefan66 said:

Dont forget about restructuring contracts.  
 

Mahomes, Jones, Clark, Hill and Thuney account for $142,000,000 cap hit next season.  That’s 5 players.  All except Hill have hefty dead cap space. Hill is 2.6 million, while Clark is 12 million and it explodes from there.  Restructure a few of these, most likely Mahomes  is one of them and they get much cap relief.  I hate to say.

 

It takes our top 12 contracts to reach 143 million, including Josh’s contract.

 

Id ‘d say we are in a better cap situation than the Chiefs.  Less players accounting for the most dollars.  The Chiefs will face a day of reckoning before we do.  

 

Mahomes contract doesnt even kick in until next year and its 10 years long.  They cant restructure that.

[PatsFanNH]

On 1/26/2022 at 12:08 PM, Fan in Chicago said:

It took Reid and Payton a long, long time (and future HOF QBing) to succeed consistently in the playoffs

But @PatsFanNH said that BB doesnt want a QB like Allen 😁

Lol I said they never draft a QB like Allen was. Raw and needing time and talent around him.

[davefan66]

22 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Mahomes contract doesnt even kick in until next year and its 10 years long.  They cant restructure that.

Absolutely.  And the cap is a ton of bucks now.  

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

On 1/26/2022 at 2:33 PM, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

you could be like the chiefs and pay like a $100M for Chris Jones, Frank Clark, Melvin Ingram, and others— and yet have Josh Allen completely and totally Shred them. 
 

With Allen and Mahomes, it doesn’t really matter much who you have out there playing D line. 

 

I don't agree with this, i think in a game like this, a player like Melvin Ingram or Von Miller could make 1 impact play that could totally have turned around our misfortunes. We had DL breaking through but couldn't get to Mahomes but a veteran like Ingram or Miller could have gotten to him. I don't like that we were content with the guys we had and didn't try for a Miller or Ingram when they were available unless we did and they just chose other teams.

[balln]

On 1/29/2022 at 1:50 AM, BuffaloBillsGospel said:

 

I don't agree with this, i think in a game like this, a player like Melvin Ingram or Von Miller could make 1 impact play that could totally have turned around our misfortunes. We had DL breaking through but couldn't get to Mahomes but a veteran like Ingram or Miller could have gotten to him. I don't like that we were content with the guys we had and didn't try for a Miller or Ingram when they were available unless we did and they just chose other teams.

in fact he did. ingram beat spencer like a drum sacked allen who fumbled it off a lineman and back into his arms. super lucky to not lose that fumble