Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Coffeesforclosers]

25 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

At the risk of missing something, where are these bizarre numbers coming from?

Our GDP is about one tenth of what is claimed, and defense is about 800b as opposed to the claimed 1.9 trillion.

 

 

The last time I heard arguments like those, it was in college. And they were coming from guys in sandals and Che Guevara t-shirts holding $6 lattes. 

 

Horseshoe Theory has once again proven itself. 

[sherpa]

12 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

BEA statement puts estimate of 2022 US GDP at $26.15 Trillion. 

 

https://www.bea.gov/news/2023/gross-domestic-product-fourth-quarter-and-year-2022-second-estimate

 

Fiscal year 2022 defense spending around $778 Billion.  A fun fact is that if you add the budgets of the next 7 biggest spenders China, Saudi Arabia, India, France, Russia, Britain, and Germany the US spends more than those 7 combined.  But where the $1.9 Trillion quote in the post a couple entries above is coming from who knows? 

 

With due respect, I think there is a gross error in your claim/link.

The suggestion that the US GDP is 26 trillion is out of sight insane.

 

Especially, since in the confirming link you posted, the claim is that fourth quarter GDP was 421.1 b, which would mean that the previous three quarters accounted for 50x that.

 

Insanity.

 

Maybe the guy was talking about the entire world, but this is crazy.

[gobills404]

I hope Russia wins just for this tweet alone 

[sherpa]

32 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

BEA statement puts estimate of 2022 US GDP at $26.15 Trillion. 

 

https://www.bea.gov/news/2023/gross-domestic-product-fourth-quarter-and-year-2022-second-estimate

 

Fiscal year 2022 defense spending around $778 Billion.   But where the $1.9 Trillion quote in the post a couple entries above is coming from who knows? 

 

So it went from 778b to 1.9 trillion is one year?

A "fun fact" is that if the claim was anywhere near accurate, every kid in the US would have an F-22 in his garage.

 

I have to get out of here before I shake my head off its support.

[All_Pro_Bills]

25 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

With due respect, I think there is a gross error in your claim/link.

The suggestion that the US GDP is 26 trillion is out of sight insane.

 

Especially, since in the confirming link you posted, the claim is that fourth quarter GDP was 421.1 b, which would mean that the previous three quarters accounted for 50x that.

 

Insanity.

 

Maybe the guy was talking about the entire world, but this is crazy.

To quote the link right from the BEA a federal agency:

Current-dollar GDP (not nominal - my words here) increased 9.2 percent, or $2.15 trillion, in 2022 to a level of $25.46 trillion, compared with an increase of 10.7 percent, or $2.25 trillion, in 2021 (tables 1 and 3).

 

Or Google this "what is the total 2022 US GDP?"

Edited February 23, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[daz28]

4 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Well this must mean that they are "pro-Putin".  Right ?

 

 

House Oversight Committee Demands Full Accounting of All Aid to Ukraine.

 

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/rick-moran/2023/02/22/house-oversight-committee-demands-full-accounting-of-all-aid-to-ukraine-n1672877

 

.

No, it would mean they're pro American taxpayer.  I'm guessing they already gave up on the Covid stimulus accounting though, which was only $6 trillion.  

[Big Blitz]

Fighting for “democracy” in Ukraine while losing your freedoms to fascist thugs here in America 

 

 

This is what they want to do at the national level.

[Coffeesforclosers]

The T-90M is the second most modern tank in Russia after the T-14 Armata. It's also the most modern tank they're currently producing. 

 

All the stuff sicking out of the top of the turret are sensors and gunsights for the crew, bits of the anti-missile defense systems, and remote weapons stations.

 

The rug looking thing draped over it is Nakidka, to help minimize its thermal and radar detectability. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Coffeesforclosers

[Coffeesforclosers]

There's a DeSantis thread for talking about DeSantis.

 

The whole rest of PPP is there for discussing politics n crap. 

[Roundybout]

 

😇

[SoCal Deek]

I’ve mentioned it many times that I’m certainly no military expert but I really have to wonder what’s going on in Ukraine. This is a pretty isolated border squabble being fought with conventional weapons. The entire free world is aligned on one side of the conflict. You’re telling me that in the 21st Century the world cannot beat back a decrepit fighting force of conscripts using what’s often reported to be broken down equipment? Really? This has been going on for a year now? And the best the world can do is repeat the utterly ridiculous catch phrase of “As Long As It Takes”? Again…really? Let’s end this thing! 

[Coffeesforclosers]

8 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’ve mentioned it many times that I’m certainly no military expert... 

 

Honesty is a great policy and I appreciate it. PPP could certainly use more like you.

 

But this is where I stopped reading your post. 

[SoCal Deek]

5 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Honesty is a great policy and I appreciate it. PPP could certainly use more like you.

 

But this is where I stopped reading your post. 

Well instead of a snarky response, why not tell me why this ‘war’ is still going on? Are you a military expert? Or just a guy who slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night? 

[ChiGoose]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Well instead of a snarky response, why not tell me why this ‘war’ is still going on? Are you a military expert? Or just a guy who slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night? 

Ukraine is a smaller country with a smaller army that has been transitioning to a more modern NATO style but was similarly decrepit as Russia as recently as 2014. 
 

If we want to end this quickly, we should just give Ukraine everything they need to launch a counteroffensive and reclaim their territory. Anything short of that and this war is going to continue to drag on as a small modern force defends against a much larger outdated military.

[SoCal Deek]

6 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

Ukraine is a smaller country with a smaller army that has been transitioning to a more modern NATO style but was similarly decrepit as Russia as recently as 2014. 
 

If we want to end this quickly, we should just give Ukraine everything they need to launch a counteroffensive and reclaim their territory. Anything short of that and this war is going to continue to drag on as a small modern force defends against a much larger outdated military.

Thanks Goose

Then we agree. The free world should be looking to end this NOW. Whether that’s through peace talks, strongly worded ‘negotiations’, or just supplying them with an unbeatable force. But…this has gone on long enough and has evolved from a ‘small incursion’ to a year long virtual stalemate. This is unacceptable in the 21st Century. If the world can’t settle this sort of conflict, we’ve really not evolved much at all. Sad. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by SoCal Deek

[BillStime]

The cult loves Putin.

 

 

 

[ChiGoose]

12 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Thanks Goose

Then we agree. The free world should be looking to end this NOW. Whether that’s through peace talks, strongly worded ‘negotiations’, or just supplying them with an unbeatable force. But…this has gone on long enough and has evolved from a ‘small incursion’ to a year long virtual stalemate. This is unacceptable in the 21st Century. If the world can’t settle this sort of conflict, we’ve really not evolved much at all. Sad. 

Well, peace talks will go nowhere at this point. Putin likely won’t settle for less than overthrowing the Ukrainian government and installing a pro-Russia puppet. And Ukraine (rightfully) won’t want to cede territory that leaves any Ukrainians in the hands of those torturing, killing, and kidnapping them as part of their plan of genocide. 
 

So the only way to bring this to a close quicker is to ensure one side gains the decisive upper hand. I would very much prefer that side to be Ukraine. 

[sherpa]

18 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

To quote the link right from the BEA a federal agency:

Current-dollar GDP (not nominal - my words here) increased 9.2 percent, or $2.15 trillion, in 2022 to a level of $25.46 trillion, compared with an increase of 10.7 percent, or $2.25 trillion, in 2021 (tables 1 and 3).

 

Or Google this "what is the total 2022 US GDP?"

 

I've got apologize to All Pro Bills.

The GDP numbers are accurate.

I had the federal budget, not that we have one, stuck in my aging mind,

 

The military budget numbers I stated are correct, a little less than 800b this year, not the 1.8t in the link, but I owe an apology for the GDP error. 

[Coffeesforclosers]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

Well instead of a snarky response, why not tell me why this ‘war’ is still going on? Are you a military expert? Or just a guy who slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night? 

 

It's not a snarky response. You're a guy with an opinion on the internet, you said you're not an expert, and you didn't post any evidence. So I stopped reading. 

[B-Man]

 

STILL MORE OF A PEACE EFFORT THAN BIDEN HAS MADE: 

 

China’s Plan To End Ukraine-Russia War Met With Skepticism In West. 

 

“Last week, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said the West believes China is poised to begin supplying arms to Russia. Given that the West, led by the U.S., is sending lethal aid to Ukraine, that would raise the specter of a proxy war between the world’s most powerful nations and stoke fears the U.S., Europe, and China could all be further drawn in.”

 

A look at China’s 12 points reveals a wishlist of feel-good measures “abandoning the Cold War mentality” and little of substance.

 

https://www.dailywire.com/news/chinas-plan-to-end-ukraine-russia-war-met-with-skepticism-in-west

 

 

So if I had to guess, Beijing is putting this out there for Ukraine and the West to reject in order to justify sending arms to Russia.

 

But that’s just a guess. We’ll see.

 

by Stephen Green

 

https://instapundit.com/571282/

[Coffeesforclosers]

52 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

STILL MORE OF A PEACE EFFORT THAN BIDEN HAS MADE: 

 

China’s Plan To End Ukraine-Russia War Met With Skepticism In West. 

 

“Last week, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said the West believes China is poised to begin supplying arms to Russia. Given that the West, led by the U.S., is sending lethal aid to Ukraine, that would raise the specter of a proxy war between the world’s most powerful nations and stoke fears the U.S., Europe, and China could all be further drawn in.”

 

A look at China’s 12 points reveals a wishlist of feel-good measures “abandoning the Cold War mentality” and little of substance.

 

https://www.dailywire.com/news/chinas-plan-to-end-ukraine-russia-war-met-with-skepticism-in-west

 

 

So if I had to guess, Beijing is putting this out there for Ukraine and the West to reject in order to justify sending arms to Russia.

 

But that’s just a guess. We’ll see.

 

by Stephen Green

 

https://instapundit.com/571282/

 

Totally agree. If this summary is accurate, all China did with this flim flam proposal is announce how they'd like to see the war resolved.  And how the resolution of the war could best align with China's interests.

 

It's such a naked wishlist of China and Russia's best outcomes given current circumstances, you'd almost think it's a fake. 

[SoCal Deek]

2 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

It's not a snarky response. You're a guy with an opinion on the internet, you said you're not an expert, and you didn't post any evidence. So I stopped reading. 

Evidence of what? I simply posed a proposition in a chat room. Are there rules now against that? Are you the arbitrator of them?

[L Ron Burgundy]

3 hours ago, ChiGoose said:

Well, peace talks will go nowhere at this point. Putin likely won’t settle for less than overthrowing the Ukrainian government and installing a pro-Russia puppet. And Ukraine (rightfully) won’t want to cede territory that leaves any Ukrainians in the hands of those torturing, killing, and kidnapping them as part of their plan of genocide. 
 

So the only way to bring this to a close quicker is to ensure one side gains the decisive upper hand. I would very much prefer that side to be Ukraine. 

I dont think the pro Russia people understand what Russia does with the countries under their thumb.  Former eastern bloc nations,  aside from Serbia, despise Russia.   

 

It's a good point to question whether Russia invaded due to Nato expansion but these places were begging for protection so as to not return to the old ways.  They want to westernize and get away from the uber corrupt Russian way.  

[Buffarukus]

i seriously cannot believe what a complete 180 degree flip the left has made. from the flower carrying hippy to banging the war drum and accusing anyone who wants peace talks "pro russian". all you have to do is add a couple sabators to a peace rally, focus in on them alone and then just slander them with the usual racist, supremist, hell throw in antivaxers. that still works right. forget the message they represent and keep pushing us closer to nuclear war. 

 

 

 

its fkng disgusting and the fact it still works on idiots even though its so transparent is truly sad.

 

oh and just incase you are wondering why retoric and tensions are escalating to a boiling point with china and the US is suddenly getting new "intelligence" china is "looking to provide weopons to russia".

 

 

at this point why would anyone believe a single word our gov says when it comes to this war. its obv they left the one in iraq that was based on lies to go to one in afganistan to nation build, which was 20 years of nothing to leave that one to now "support" another one with zero ambitions or talks about de escalation. 

 

leftists

 

covid lies and same slander tactics to anyone who opposes them.

  whoops sorry for the crushing inflation everyone

 

crime reform same tactics

  whoops sorry family of the victim that was killed by a violent criminal that was out on bail and communities living in fear.

 

WW3 as the nuclear bombs are headed to our cities

  whoops sorry for the obliteration of the earth but we can all go to our graves knowing the tweets arent mean.

 

yeah i know. what am i talking about. they don't say sorry. 

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Buffarukus

[ChiGoose]

55 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

I dont think the pro Russia people understand what Russia does with the countries under their thumb.  Former eastern bloc nations,  aside from Serbia, despise Russia.  

Russia is torturing and executing civilians and they are even kidnapping children and “re-educating” them to eliminate their Ukrainian heritage. 
 

It’s textbook genocide: trying to erase a culture. 
 

And yet some people are surprised that Ukraine doesn’t want to capitulate to Russia and leave its citizens in the hands of those who wish to liquidate them. 

[Coffeesforclosers]

https://www.reuters.com/world/ukraine-says-its-open-some-parts-china-ceasefire-proposal-2023-02-24/

 

Highlights on Zelensky's response to China's proposal:

 

-He doesn't think it's a plan, just a list of points, some of which he thinks are ok. The article doesn't say which ones.

 

-He says that any peace plan that doesn't come with a full Russian troop withdrawal is DOA. 

 

-He's got a meeting with Xi Jinping coming up, and China providing arms to Russia is a very serious issue that will be discussed. 

 

The rest I leave to you guys, it's a short read. 

 

[B-Man]

 

 

Unfortunately he said this also.

 

 

 

 

 

This type of arrogant response will not sit well with the average American.

 

They know blackmail when they hear it.

 

It's the "Ukrainian way"

 

 

 

 

.

Edited February 24, 2023 by B-Man

[L Ron Burgundy]

14 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Unfortunately he said this also.

 

 

 

 

 

This type of arrogant response will not sit well with the average American.

 

They know blackmail when they hear it.

 

It's the "Ukrainian way"

 

 

 

 

.

It's desperation.  He's shown nothing that indicates he's corrupt but even if he were "blackmailing" I wouldn't blame him for trying.   They are faced with annihilation.   If that's the average Americans opinion your opinion of them is not high.  

 

If the US was in their position I would expect our leadership to do everything they could as well.

 

[B-Man]

 

[sherpa]

I'll give him a pass on this one.

He's facing an offensive which may be Putin's last best.

They've lived through a horrible year and an even worse winter.

 

Still, not smart to poke the US.

The US is NATO.

The US is the reason he is still around, and his only hope.

 

Could have said something like it would be wise for the West to stay the course, but understands the sacrifices other countries have made, and will need to continue to make to achieve a favorable outcome.

 

He should also refuse to be baited by stupid press questions designed to divide.

[Big Blitz]

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, sherpa said:

I'll give him a pass on this one.

He's facing an offensive which may be Putin's last best.

They've lived through a horrible year and an even worse winter.

 

Still, not smart to poke the US.

The US is NATO.

The US is the reason he is still around, and his only hope.

 

Could have said something like it would be wise for the West to stay the course, but understands the sacrifices other countries have made, and will need to continue to make to achieve a favorable outcome.

 

He should also refuse to be baited by stupid press questions designed to divide.

I saw speculation elsewhere that suggested Zelensky might actually have that dirt on the Biden's that Trump was look for way back when Vindman dropped a dime on the ex-prez.  Running a little blackmail op.  Theory might fit but unlikely.

[Buffarukus]

2 hours ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

It's desperation.  He's shown nothing that indicates he's corrupt but even if he were "blackmailing" I wouldn't blame him for trying.   They are faced with annihilation.   If that's the average Americans opinion your opinion of them is not high.  

 

If the US was in their position I would expect our leadership to do everything they could as well.

 

 

most people who cant defend themselves and are asking of others or facing annihilation should be far more open to negotiations and compromise instead of all or nothing. pay for our defense or the blood is on your hands. that sounds like blackmail. the fact the US doesn't account for every cent for some odd reason as we give more and more sounds like corruption and money laundering. the fact he has rounded up critics and political opponents sounds like dictatorship of their own but dont  question any of this because thats anti freedom.

 

these are the reasons the american public are not fully on board like we are told to be.

 

[Roundybout]

4 hours ago, Buffarukus said:

i seriously cannot believe what a complete 180 degree flip the left has made. from the flower carrying hippy to banging the war drum and accusing anyone who wants peace talks "pro russian". all you have to do is add a couple sabators to a peace rally, focus in on them alone and then just slander them with the usual racist, supremist, hell throw in antivaxers. that still works right. forget the message they represent and keep pushing us closer to nuclear war. 

 

 

 

its fkng disgusting and the fact it still works on idiots even though its so transparent is truly sad.

 

oh and just incase you are wondering why retoric and tensions are escalating to a boiling point with china and the US is suddenly getting new "intelligence" china is "looking to provide weopons to russia".

 

 

at this point why would anyone believe a single word our gov says when it comes to this war. its obv they left the one in iraq that was based on lies to go to one in afganistan to nation build, which was 20 years of nothing to leave that one to now "support" another one with zero ambitions or talks about de escalation. 

 

leftists

 

covid lies and same slander tactics to anyone who opposes them.

  whoops sorry for the crushing inflation everyone

 

crime reform same tactics

  whoops sorry family of the victim that was killed by a violent criminal that was out on bail and communities living in fear.

 

WW3 as the nuclear bombs are headed to our cities

  whoops sorry for the obliteration of the earth but we can all go to our graves knowing the tweets arent mean.

 

yeah i know. what am i talking about. they don't say sorry. 

 

Boring rant is boring. 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

9 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Well instead of a snarky response, why not tell me why this ‘war’ is still going on? Are you a military expert? Or just a guy who slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night? 

I just booked a comfort inn for a conference.  Is that bad?  It was a very good deal and looks pretty good.

[SoCal Deek]

15 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

I just booked a comfort inn for a conference.  Is that bad?  It was a very good deal and looks pretty good.

While I was in a Hilton Garden Inn. It was okay I guess but the complimentary breakfast was a bit scary. 

[Big Blitz]

Yep.  
 

 

[ChiGoose]

2 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

Yep.  
 

 

This stuff is readily available for anyone who is interested. Maybe it’s not that it’s not there but that some people have closed their bubbles so they never see it. 

[Buffarukus]

2 hours ago, Roundybout said:

Boring rant is boring. 

 

sorry to disappoint. here are some little animal emojis  to keep you more entertained 🦁 🐮 🦍 

 

better? its like your at the zoo now. 😅

 

 

[Warcodered]

21 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

This stuff is readily available for anyone who is interested. Maybe it’s not that it’s not there but that some people have closed their bubbles so they never see it. 

Maybe he's been living in a cave?