Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Tommy Callahan]

5 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

Kick Russia in the nuts, get them out of disputed territory and return the Donbas to Ukraine. The world then sees they are not a threat for anything, Putin is overthrown and Russia gets a leader that helps them join the modern age. Well, a guy can dream anyways! 

So?

thats about the first time someone said the goal. might be a hard sell after dun bus and Crimea Elections last year...

 

But your talking DMZ at the pre 2014 euro maiden, counter revolution line?  Who maintains that?

 

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Putin loses, that’s the plan 

That's an objective, not a plan.  We agree on the objective but I expect we might disagree on the "plan".

 

The original "plan" was to impose sanctions on Russia and seize and freeze central bank assets and those of key confidants of Putin in order to squeeze them into submission.  Win the conflict economically, cause political trouble for Putin at home, and allow Ukrainian forces to prevail on the battlefield.  That didn't work.  Sanctions had little impact.  Russian planners had prepared them for those actions.  They can effectively execute trade and commerce outside the dollar based financial system.  And are teaching others to do the same. 

 

Right now I'm not sure what the plan is other than to continue this dance of increasing escalations between Russia and US/NATO/Ukraine in the belief that both sides think at some point the other side is going to back down.  You seem to believe there will be some point where Ukraine will achieve victory on the battlefield or the Russians will conclude the war is not winnable and will retreat back to within their borders.  I disagree.  I don't see Ukraine achieving a military victory or Russia and Putin backing down.  And right now, although there are discussions within NATO countries about the logistics of armaments, I don't see any signs the US side will back down either.  Or any mutual recognition that the only path to a solution and outcome is negotiating some settlement between the parties. 

 

So for me that escalation path points to the ultimate escalation.  Someplace nobody wants to go.  But here we are racing down that path.  That's my concern.  Their "plan" is nothing short of taking the risk of nuclear annihilation and killing every living thing on Earth to achieve "victory" nobody will be around the celebrate.  That's not being an isolationist or appeasing Putin.  That's a perspective of logic and sanity in the face of the insanity of those in charge taking us all down a dark path.

Edited February 20, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[Tiberius]

3 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

That's an objective, not a plan.  We agree on the objective but I expect we might disagree on the "plan".

 

The original "plan" was to impose sanctions on Russia and seize and freeze central bank assets and those of key confidants of Putin in order to squeeze them into submission.  Win the conflict economically, cause political trouble for Putin at home, and allow Ukrainian forces to prevail on the battlefield.  That didn't work.  Sanctions had little impact.  Russian planners had prepared them for those actions.  They can effectively execute trade and commerce outside the dollar based financial system.  And are teaching others to do the same. 

 

Right now I'm not sure what the plan is other than to continue this dance of increasing escalations between Russia and US/NATO/Ukraine in the belief that both sides think at some point the other side is going to back down.  You seem to believe there will be some point where Ukraine will achieve victory on the battlefield or the Russians will conclude the war is not winnable and will retreat back to within their borders.  I disagree.  I don't see Ukraine achieving a military victory or Russia and Putin backing down.  And right now, although there are discussions within NATO countries about the logistics of armaments, I don't see any signs the US side will back down either.  Or any mutual recognition that the only path to a solution and outcome is negotiating some settlement between the parties. 

 

So for me that escalation path points to the ultimate escalation.  Someplace nobody wants to go.  But here we are racing down that path.  That's my concern.  Their "plan" is nothing short of taking the risk of nuclear annihilation and killing every living thing on Earth to achieve "victory" nobody will be around the celebrate.  

 

 

The autocratic world hates democracy and they don’t care a fig about their people and will use them up to hurt democracy and our interests. We are showing we will stand by a fellow democracy in its hour of need. That’s a good signal to send 

[All_Pro_Bills]

18 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

The autocratic world hates democracy and they don’t care a fig about their people and will use them up to hurt democracy and our interests. We are showing we will stand by a fellow democracy in its hour of need. That’s a good signal to send 

So the "plan" is to ignore all potential catastrophic consequences and risks up to and including the extinction of all life on Earth to "show them" you mean business?

[B-Man]

 

 

I think having the "sirens blare" was a nice fake touch.

 

 

 

Damn Reuters, ruining everything.

 

 

 

.

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

So the "plan" is to ignore all potential catastrophic consequences and risks up to and including the extinction of all life on Earth to "show them" you mean business?

No, not ignore. Just don’t let them black mail us. 
 

You think Ukraine should of just of been allowed to be enslaved, is that correct? Just appease Putin 

[Coffeesforclosers]

18 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

No, not ignore. Just don’t let them black mail us. 
 

You think Ukraine should of just of been allowed to be enslaved, is that correct? Just appease Putin 

 

Be fair to Putin. He's been threatening to nuke everyone since the beginning of the war. And the whole world knows Russian policy is to nuke everyone who invades Russian Territory.

 

Look at the recent nuclear strikes in Kherson Oblast. Ukraine attacked it on August 29th, 2022. Russia declared it part of Russia on September 30th, 2022. Ukraine liberated all of Kherson up to the Dnipro River by November 11, 2022. Russia nuked Ukraine on November 12th, in accordance with its longstanding policy.

 

Putin isn't some candyass that lets people drive tanks over his red lines. He follows through. 

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Coffeesforclosers

[All_Pro_Bills]

20 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

No, not ignore. Just don’t let them black mail us. 
 

You think Ukraine should of just of been allowed to be enslaved, is that correct? Just appease Putin 

That outcome is an extremist position that isn't going to happen regardless of the circumstances that end the conflict.    

[Tommy Callahan]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

The autocratic world hates democracy and they don’t care a fig about their people and will use them up to hurt democracy and our interests. We are showing we will stand by a fellow democracy in its hour of need. That’s a good signal to send 

What ones?  I mean you obviously dont mean the elections held in the disputed regions. like eff that democracy.

 

And in 2014 Ukraine had a euro maiden. a revolution.  kind of opposite of DEMOCRACY.

 

 

[Big Blitz]

 

 

 

Interesting 

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

10 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

What ones?  I mean you obviously dont mean the elections held in the disputed regions. like eff that democracy.

 

And in 2014 Ukraine had a euro maiden. a revolution.  kind of opposite of DEMOCRACY.

 

 

A coup engineered by the US State Department's Victoria Nuland against a democratically elected government because they wouldn't play ball with Washington.  Who just so happens to be back in charge of the operation after a 4 year vacation 2017 through 2020.  Washington loves democracies but they also love monarchies, dictatorships, and theocracies as long as they go along with the regimes objectives and rules.  When they step out of line, then the plot changes. 

 

But the fools that think our government hold a special place in its heart exclusively reserved for democracies will believe what they want to believe.

Edited February 20, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[Tiberius]

26 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

What ones?  I mean you obviously dont mean the elections held in the disputed regions. like eff that democracy.

 

And in 2014 Ukraine had a euro maiden. a revolution.  kind of opposite of DEMOCRACY.

 

 

Putin’s elections? Where 120% of the people voted for Russia? 

17 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

A coup engineered by the US State Department's Victoria Nuland against a democratically elected government because they wouldn't play ball with Washington.  Who just so happens to be back in charge of the operation after a 4 year vacation 2017 through 2020.  Washington loves democracies but they also love monarchies, dictatorships, and theocracies as long as they go along with the regimes objectives and rules.  When they step out of line, then the plot changes. 

 

But the fools that think our government hold a special place in its heart exclusively reserved for democracies will believe what they want to believe.

You mean where the Russian backed government—along with Paul Manafort!!— began killing protesters? 

 

 

[Tiberius]

50 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

 

Interesting 

 

 

The same Trump who came within an ace of war against Iran? 
 

And why was he going to do that? Because they hit Saudi Arabia… 

 

Ya, Trump who increased military spending, sure he is against the military industrial complex. 
 

[JDHillFan]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

No, not ignore. Just don’t let them black mail us. 
 

You think Ukraine should of just of been allowed to be enslaved, is that correct? Just appease Putin 

I stood with our good American president when he said a minor incursion was ok. I don’t know why he said that but who am I to question?

[Tiberius]

4 minutes ago, JDHillFan said:

I stood with our good American president when he said a minor incursion was ok. I don’t know why he said that but who am I to question?

But not when he began sending material support to stop Putin? 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

You mean where the Russian backed government—along with Paul Manafort!!— began killing protesters? 

 

 

You're just repeating a false narrative.  Forensic investigations proved shots were fired from locations different than those where officers implicated by the coup instigators were locating during the event.   No officer was arrested, tried, or convicted of killing any protesters during the maiden riots dispute your contention they somehow killed protesters.  The event proved a catalyst and convenient excuse to overthrow the elected government.   But the US government would never participate in such a nefarious action because we always wear the good guy hats.  Even through I could name about 3 dozen times Washington has toppled foreign governments.  But you can look it up too if you'd like.

Edited February 20, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[sherpa]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

The same Trump who came within an ace of war against Iran? 
 

And why was he going to do that? Because they hit Saudi Arabia… 

 

 

This is about the fifth time you have made this claim.

What is it based on?

[Tiberius]

6 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

This is about the fifth time you have made this claim.

What is it based on?

Iranian drones attacked a Saudi oil facility and we can within hours of attacking Iran. 
 

Is my memory wrong? 

13 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

You're just repeating a false narrative.  Forensic investigations proved shots were fired from locations different than those where officers implicated by the coup instigators were locating during the event.   No officer was arrested, tried, or convicted of killing any protesters during the maiden riots dispute your contention they somehow killed protesters.  The event proved a catalyst and convenient excuse to overthrow the elected government.   But the US government would never participate in such a nefarious action because we always wear the good guy hats.  Even through I could name about 3 dozen times Washington has toppled foreign governments.  But you can look it up too if you'd like.

So in your view, Biden is the bad guy, Putin is only reacting to our aggression and we need to leave Russia to do its bloody deeds 

[Demongyz]

3 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Iranian drones attacked a Saudi oil facility and we can within hours of attacking Iran. 
 

Is my memory wrong? 

So in your view, Biden is the bad guy, Putin is only reacting to our aggression and we need to leave Russia to do its bloody deeds 

How many hours? infinity?

[sherpa]

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Iranian drones attacked a Saudi oil facility and we can within hours of attacking Iran. 
 

Is my memory wrong? 

 

I'm not sure of your memory.

Neither am I sure that we came within hours of attacking Iran.

What info do you have that states we were within  hours....

[Tommy Callahan]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

You mean where the Russian backed government—along with Paul Manafort!!— began killing protesters? 

Nice version of events you got there.  

 

Manafort was killing protesters. 

 

thats crazy.

[Tiberius]

20 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

I'm not sure of your memory.

Neither am I sure that we came within hours of attacking Iran.

What info do you have that states we were within  hours....

As I remember it, Trump said he called it off at last moment 

13 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

Nice version of events you got there.  

 

Manafort was killing protesters. 

 

thats crazy.

No, he was “only” working for the government that was. He was also working for Putin who the Ukrainians saw as the real power behind the throne 

[sherpa]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

As I remember it, Trump said he called it off at last moment 

 

You have made this same claim over and over.

There has to be something more than you "memory."

 

It's kind of a serious claim.

[Tiberius]

6 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

You have made this same claim over and over.

There has to be something more than you "memory."

 

It's kind of a serious claim.

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/21/734683701/trump-reportedly-orders-strike-on-iran-then-calls-off-attack-plan

[Tiberius]

4 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

 

I think having the "sirens blare" was a nice fake touch.

 

 

 

Damn Reuters, ruining everything.

 

 

 

.

Well, missiles do hit that city. Trump couldn’t be bothered to endure rain to honor our fallen service members 

[sherpa]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/21/734683701/trump-reportedly-orders-strike-on-iran-then-calls-off-attack-plan

 

So this proposed response to a hostile Iranian act, which amounts to nothing more than a drone strike is what you base this claim off?

 

Just stupid.

 

Two presidents you've chatted about today, ex the current one.

 

One, Trump, which is your obsession, and really never got us close to a war with Iran.....

And the second, Carter, who not only nearly got into a war with them, but screwed up the attempt badly and got a bunch of Americans needlessly killed.

 

The logic is uncanny.

[Tiberius]

4 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

So this proposed response to a hostile Iranian act, which amounts to nothing more than a drone strike is what you base this claim off?

 

Just stupid.

 

Two presidents you've chatted about today, ex the current one.

 

One, Trump, which is your obsession, and really never got us close to a war with Iran.....

And the second, Carter, who not only nearly got into a war with them, but screwed up the attempt badly and got a bunch of Americans needlessly killed.

 

The logic is uncanny.

You ok? You are Reaching seriously just to feed your obsession with

me 

 

No, Trump said they were ready for war over that drone thing. 
 

Carter was reacting to a serious violation of human rights committed against our citizens 

 

Carter had way more reason for action, though…oh I won’t go there with you 
 

 

[sherpa]

13 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

You ok? You are Reaching seriously just to feed your obsession with

me 

 

No, Trump said they were ready for war over that drone thing. 
 

Carter was reacting to a serious violation of human rights committed against our citizens 

 

Carter had way more reason for action, though…oh I won’t go there with you 
 

 

 

It is preposterous to think I have any obsession with you.

You simply post idiotic stuff that draws attention because it is nonsense.

 

So..Given the presidents you have talked about today:

 

Who was in the White House when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan?

Who was in the White House when the Russians invaded Crimea and the Ukraine?

 

Yet Trump, per you, "nearly" started a war with Iran.

 

Do you ever consider how silly you look?

[B-Man]

 

 

 

Probably told them that they were going to sound the air raid alarms too.............🤔

 

 

 

[BillStime]

14 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

 

Probably told them that they were going to sound the air raid alarms too.............🤔

 

 

 

 

Always reading headlines and plagiarizing but never reading what really happened.

[Joe Ferguson forever]

3 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

But the US government would never participate in such a nefarious action because we always wear the good guy hats.  Even through I could name about 3 dozen times Washington has toppled foreign governments.

So should these events be taught to public school students?

[Tiberius]

46 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

It is preposterous to think I have any obsession with you.

You simply post idiotic stuff that draws attention because it is nonsense.

 

 

Don’t bull sh it me! Are you claiming I’m the only person here that posts “idiotic” stuff? 
 

Huh? You accused me of being obsessed, lol 

[BillStime]

The pro-Putin guy who requested a pardon for his role in the January 6 insurrection is whining again.

 

 

 

 

 

ETTD

 

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Don’t bull sh it me! Are you claiming I’m the only person here that posts “idiotic” stuff? 
 

Huh? You accused me of being obsessed, lol 

I’ll stick up for you on this one Tibs. You’re certainly not the ONLY one who posts idiotic stuff on here. 
 

I often have to skim through page after page of ‘idiotic stuff’ in order to bring my infamously renowned clarity to any given discussion! 

[sherpa]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

Don’t bull sh it me! Are you claiming I’m the only person here that posts “idiotic” stuff? 
 

Huh? You accused me of being obsessed, lol 

 

Ya.

I am saying that.

You are obsessed with Trump.

You can't stop posting about him, even guessing about what he would have done.

 

Those of us who don't like him don't need to do that.

We don't need to make up ridiculous scenarios, like "almost started a war."

[ChiGoose]

28 minutes ago, BillStime said:

The pro-Putin guy who requested a pardon for his role in the January 6 insurrection is whining again.

 

 

 

 

 

ETTD

 

My favorite Paul Gosar fact is that he’s such a stupid lunatic that his siblings got together and cut an ad to support his opponent in the election. 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

12 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

My favorite Paul Gosar fact is that he’s such a stupid lunatic that his siblings got together and cut an ad to support his opponent in the election. 

and the fact that he still won says a lot about the voters in AZ 9th

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, redtail hawk said:

So should these events be taught to public school students?

That question is totally irrelevant to this conversation.

[B-Man]

 

 

 

                                  

 

 

The White House notified the Kremlin of President Joe Biden’s intention to visit Kyiv hours before he departed for Ukraine, as the details began to emerge of how the US president pulled off his high-profile diplomatic coup…

 

“We did notify the Russians that President Biden will be traveling to Kyiv,” Sullivan said. “We did so some hours before his departure for deconfliction purposes, and because of the sensitive nature of those communications I won’t get into how they responded or what the precise nature of our message was, but I can confirm that we provided that notice.”

 

 

 

 

 

.

[ChiGoose]

4 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

 

                                  

 

 

The White House notified the Kremlin of President Joe Biden’s intention to visit Kyiv hours before he departed for Ukraine, as the details began to emerge of how the US president pulled off his high-profile diplomatic coup…

 

“We did notify the Russians that President Biden will be traveling to Kyiv,” Sullivan said. “We did so some hours before his departure for deconfliction purposes, and because of the sensitive nature of those communications I won’t get into how they responded or what the precise nature of our message was, but I can confirm that we provided that notice.”

 

 

 

 

 

.

Glad they did that. Correct call.