Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Westside]

9 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

So you don't think that Russia has any intention of invading the Ukraine? 

Nope, what’s stopping them from invading? Definitely not potato head.

[yall]

I mean they already invaded 6 years ago, this would simply be an escalation. Why some of you are so dismissive of the possibility is beyond me.

[JaCrispy]

I really hope we do not get involved...Of course, I also understand that our military industrial complex can never seem to help themselves...So, I’m predicting we will be at war in short time- and not for the reasons the CIA controlled msm is saying...

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by JaCrispy

[reddogblitz]

8 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Lol, you don’t understand the difference between trying to stop a war and trying to start one? 

 

 

 

The difference is I don't trust the man when he is talking about war.  I think my position is grounded in history and reality.  Maybe you weren't paying attention or too young to remember the last time and all the devastation caused by him being wrong.  I hope he's not wrong this time but I have no reason to think otherwise.  The best predictor of the future is how people performed in the past.

 

I know we are told he is playing high level 4 dimensional chess with Pooty Poot.  Part of what scares me.

 

You still didn't answer my question. What do you want, war with Russia?

Edited February 19, 2022 by reddogblitz

[Tiberius]

12 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

The difference is I don't trust the man when he is talking about war.  I think my position is grounded in history and reality.  Maybe you weren't paying attention or too young to remember the last time and all the devastation caused by him being wrong.  I hope he's not wrong this time but I have no reason to think otherwise.  The best predictor of the future is how people performed in the past.

 

I know we are told he is playing high level 4 dimensional chess with Pooty Poot.  Part of what scares me.

 

You still didn't answer my question. What do you want, war with Russia?

It’s totally different. Actually, it’s the opposite of what the Conservatives led us into in 2003 

[SoCal Deek]

“I didn’t come to start a war but stop one.” Brilliant! 

[sherpa]

26 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

It’s totally different. Actually, it’s the opposite of what the Conservatives led us into in 2003 

 

You continue to pound this specious argument, while seemingly totally ignorant or dismissive of what happened for ten years prior to that.

 

Either way, there is absolutely no way the US gets into a shooting war with Russia over this.

 

In the zero probability of that, Biden is the worst possible option as a leader.

[reddogblitz]

52 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

It’s totally different. Actually, it’s the opposite of what the Conservatives led us into in 2003 

 

So now President Biden is a conservative?  You need to study up on your history.  President Biden was Chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee and a major proponent of the drive to war in Iraq. He ran the hearings. He decided who could testify and who couldn't.  He voted for it and talked other Donkey team members to vote for it.  Wouldn't have passed otherwise.

 

This episode of Democracy Now and film referenced gives a good review for you of then Senator Biden's role.  Please watch and we can discuss it more if you wish.

 

https://www.democracynow.org/2020/3/5/joe_biden_s_history_of_selling

[Tiberius]

33 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

So now President Biden is a conservative?  You need to study up on your history.  President Biden was Chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee and a major proponent of the drive to war in Iraq. He ran the hearings. He decided who could testify and who couldn't.  He voted for it and talked other Donkey team members to vote for it.  Wouldn't have passed otherwise.

 

This episode of Democracy Now and film referenced gives a good review for you of then Senator Biden's role.  Please watch and we can discuss it more if you wish.

 

https://www.democracynow.org/2020/3/5/joe_biden_s_history_of_selling

Biden didn’t led the charge to war in Iraq.

 

The Conservative President did 

1 hour ago, sherpa said:

 

You continue to pound this specious argument, while seemingly totally ignorant or dismissive of what happened for ten years prior to that.

 

Either way, there is absolutely no way the US gets into a shooting war with Russia over this.

 

In the zero probability of that, Biden is the worst possible option as a leader.

What argument are you saying is specious? 

 

 

[sherpa]

10 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

 

What argument are you saying is specious? 

 

 

That the US was being "driven" into war in 2003.

You state this over and over and over.

The claim is like stating that the Roosevelt administration was driving us into war on Dec 8 1941.

 

In short, you ignorantly avoid mentioning the attempts at preventing war for the ten years or so after the Saddam regime signed the cease fire agreement,

Completely ignore the many, many UN resolutions violated or ignored.

Completely ignore the many warnings in the preceding years.

 

It's like you have absolutely no knowledge or understanding of what preceded 2003, when the clock was running out and the options were getting limited to deal with this.

 

You also ignore the unanimity of the intel findings in the US and other countries services, and joint  Congressional approval of the actions that followed. 

 

Splained enough?

[Orlando Tim]

2 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

That the US was being "driven" into war in 2003.

You state this over and over and over.

The claim is like stating that the Roosevelt administration was driving us into war on Dec 8 1941.

 

In short, you ignorantly avoid mentioning the attempts at preventing war for the ten years or so after the Saddam regime signed the cease fire agreement,

Completely ignore the many, many UN resolutions violated or ignored.

Completely ignore the many warnings in the preceding years.

 

It's like you have absolutely no knowledge or understanding of what preceded 2003, when the clock was running out and the options were getting limited to deal with this.

 

You also ignore the unanimity of the intel findings in the US and other countries services, and joint  Congressional approval of the actions that followed. 

 

Splained enough?

Tibs can't admit Biden was one of the leaders of the Senate to drive us into that war, why do you think anything else you mention matters? I recommend just talking to wall since it will be more logical that Tibs.

[reddogblitz]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Biden didn’t led the charge to war in Iraq.

 

The Conservative President did 

 

Did you watch the video?  

 

https://www.democracynow.org/2020/3/5/joe_biden_s_history_of_selling

 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by reddogblitz

[Chef Jim]

3 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

That the US was being "driven" into war in 2003.

You state this over and over and over.

The claim is like stating that the Roosevelt administration was driving us into war on Dec 8 1941.

 

In short, you ignorantly avoid mentioning the attempts at preventing war for the ten years or so after the Saddam regime signed the cease fire agreement,

Completely ignore the many, many UN resolutions violated or ignored.

Completely ignore the many warnings in the preceding years.

 

It's like you have absolutely no knowledge or understanding of what preceded 2003, when the clock was running out and the options were getting limited to deal with this.

 

You also ignore the unanimity of the intel findings in the US and other countries services, and joint  Congressional approval of the actions that followed. 

 

Splained enough?

But Bush lied…people died!! 
 

in 3….2…..1

 

 

[716er]

10 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

 

 

 

The war that only the Biden Administration is predicting ?

 

Avoiding that should be pretty easy.

 

 

What an idiot. 

[Westside]

15 minutes ago, 716er said:

What an idiot. 

Yes you are

[Tiberius]

Hope he is wrong. Boris Johnson predicts a human rights nightmare. 

Quote

 

Evidence suggests Russia is planning "the biggest war in Europe since 1945", Prime Minister Boris Johnson has said. 

He told the BBC's Sophie Raworth in an interview: "All the signs are that the plan has already in some senses begun."

Intelligence suggests Russia intends to launch an invasion that will encircle Ukrainian capital Kyiv, Mr Johnson said.

"People need to understand the sheer cost in human life that could entail," he said.

The prime minister was speaking from Munich, where world leaders are meeting for an annual security conference. 

Ukraine: How big is the Russian military build-up?

UK vows to step up support for Ukraine 

Ukraine invasion would shock the world - PM

The latest estimates by the US government suggests that between 169,000 and 190,000 Russian troops are stationed along Ukraine's border, both in Russia and neighbouring Belarus - but this figure also includes rebels in eastern Ukraine.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-60448162

11 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

That the US was being "driven" into war in 2003.

You state this over and over and over.

The claim is like stating that the Roosevelt administration was driving us into war on Dec 8 1941.

 

In short, you ignorantly avoid mentioning the attempts at preventing war for the ten years or so after the Saddam regime signed the cease fire agreement,

Completely ignore the many, many UN resolutions violated or ignored.

Completely ignore the many warnings in the preceding years.

 

It's like you have absolutely no knowledge or understanding of what preceded 2003, when the clock was running out and the options were getting limited to deal with this.

 

You also ignore the unanimity of the intel findings in the US and other countries services, and joint  Congressional approval of the actions that followed. 

 

Splained enough?

The Bush Administration led us to war, it launched a public relations campaign, a political campaign and ultimately a military campaign to gin up the war. They mislead the country into the war using the emotional appeal of 9-11 to convince Americans Saddam was part of that attack. Your rewriting of history is just silly 

10 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Did you watch the video?  

 

https://www.democracynow.org/2020/3/5/joe_biden_s_history_of_selling

 

 

Don’t need to. I thought your point, anyway, was that our invading a country in 2003 is the same as us trying to stop a war now. That’s stupid. 

[sherpa]

12 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Hope he is wrong. Boris Johnson predicts a human rights nightmare. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-60448162

The Bush Administration led us to war, it launched a public relations campaign, a political campaign and ultimately a military campaign to gin up the war. They mislead the country into the war using the emotional appeal of 9-11 to convince Americans Saddam was part of that attack. Your rewriting of history is just silly 

Don’t need to. I thought your point, anyway, was that our invading a country in 2003 is the same as us trying to stop a war now. That’s stupid. 

 

[Tiberius]

Just now, sherpa said:

 

? 

[sherpa]

17 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

? 

 

Pointing out the historical record is hardly "rewriting history."

You repeatedly fail to acknowledge that history.

Nothing happened between the Feb 1991 ceasefire and 2003?

There were no ceasefire violations?

Operation Southern Watch encountered no offensive activities?

There were no UN resolutions?

 

There were no intel briefings from US intel sources to Congressional Intel Committees ultimately resulting  in overwhelming support?

There's sure a lot of evidence of this "invented" history.

Of course the Bush Administration reached a point where they thought a forced removal of the Saddam regime was necessary.

Of course they interpreted the wmd evidence in the most threatening way.

I wasn't in support of an invasion, but I absolutely know that the year round babysitting of this guy at tremendous cost was not going to be a permanent solution.

The cure may have been worse, but the military operation was stunningly successful and what happened after is the cause of a whole lot of bad people getting involved in a totally failed nation.

[Tiberius]

2 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

Pointing out the historical record is hardly "rewriting history."

You repeatedly fail to acknowledge that history.

Nothing happened between the Feb 1991 ceasefire and 2003?

There were no ceasefire violations?

Operation Southern Watch encountered no offensive activities?

There were no UN resolutions?

 

There were no intel briefings from US intel sources to Congressional Intel Committees ultimately resulting  in overwhelming support?

There's sure a lot of evidence of this "invented" history.

Of course the Bush Administration reached a point where they thought a forced removal of the Saddam regime was necessary.

Of course they interpreted the wmd evidence in the most threatening way.

I wasn't in support of an invasion, but I absolutely know that the year round babysitting of this guy at tremendous cost was not going to be a permanent solution.

The cure may have been worse, but the military operation was stunningly successful and what happened after is the cause of a whole lot of bad people getting involved in a totally failed nation.

I get it was a VERY messed up situation beforehand. 

 

I agree with most most of what you say here, and taking out Saddam was hardly the worst thing to do, but Bush pushed for and rallied the country to war. And he used 9-11 as a pretext. That’s all I’m say. It was a war of choice. I wish it had worked out better. Everyone should have. 

 

As to the aftermath, that was obvious, it was completely predictable

 

The original point you objected to still stands though, the WH is being used today to stop a war, in 2003 it was used to start one. 

[Chef Jim]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

The Bush Administration led us to war, it launched a public relations campaign, a political campaign and ultimately a military campaign to gin up the war. They mislead the country into the war. 

What do I win?

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

 

The original point you objected to still stands though, the WH is being used today to stop a war, in 2003 it was used to start one. 

Tibs…you’ve really got to be kidding. These two circumstances are literally nothing alike. I think you’re reaching here. 

[Tiberius]

6 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Tibs…you’ve really got to be kidding. These two circumstances are literally nothing alike. I think you’re reaching here. 

Thank you. That’s my point. @reddogblitz

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Thank you. That’s my point. @reddogblitz

You’re welcome. I’m here for you dude! 👍

[SoCal Deek]

In these very troubling times a lone but prophetic figure will arise to guide the people back from the brink of war….he/she is of course…Kamala Harris! 😳

[Niagara Bill]

So, if Ukraine is not important enough to have an actual war, what country is important enough for conflict. Georgia? Poland? Finland?

Can there be a war? If not how do you stop the new Hitler at a time of nuclear warheads. Russia has never been shy about sacrificing citizens in conflicts.

1938/39 saw the world wait too long...

2022, there will not be opertunity for conventional build up, 

 

Daunting challenges, 

[sherpa]

6 hours ago, Tiberius said:

 

As to the aftermath, that was obvious, it was completely predictable

 

 

It was completely predictable?

To who?

Not to the US Ambassador to Kuwait who, being the senior diplomat in the region authored a State Dept. Communique direct to Saddam stating that any invasion of Kuwait would be responded to by the US.

This occurred the day after the famous Saddam/April Glaspie meeting.

The same guy who stayed in the US Embassy in Kuwait under siege during the brief Iraqi occupation.

A career Middle East diplomat with extensive Arab world contacts. 

He said that, regarding the 2003 expulsion of the regime, the aftermath was completely unpredictable, which is why I didn't want it to happen.

 

Maybe you knew more about the situation than he did.

 

You are doing what disingenuous scoundrels do.

You are using hindsight to claim knowledge held before hand.

You had no knowledge of what would happen, nor did anyone else who is honest.

Edited February 20, 2022 by sherpa

[All_Pro_Bills]

46 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said:

So, if Ukraine is not important enough to have an actual war, what country is important enough for conflict. Georgia? Poland? Finland?

Can there be a war? If not how do you stop the new Hitler at a time of nuclear warheads. Russia has never been shy about sacrificing citizens in conflicts.

1938/39 saw the world wait too long...

2022, there will not be opertunity for conventional build up, 

 

Daunting challenges, 

With all due respect, what about Canada?  Should the US invade Canada to restore democracy?  Should NATO act?  Should the governments of other democracies express concerns and outrage at the invoking of emergency powers?  I mean, Putin puts one "activist" in jail and the entire world expresses condemnation but not a peep here from any democracy.  Should a Navy Seal Team be dispatched to Ottawa to abduct PM Trudeau and bring him to Washington to stand trial for crimes against his citizens?  

 

Because after Trudeau's emergency powers order I'm hard pressed to articulate what the difference is between living in Trudeau's Canada and Putin's Russia.  From where I sit Trudeau's actions are perfectly consistent with the way Putin or Xi would have handled it.  Some person or group resist your rule invoke powers and send in security forces to crush them and destroy their lives in the process along with anyone you identify that has provided any kind of support to their cause.  

 

So why ask fellow Canadians or Americans, to put their asses on the line to protect freedom and democracy in various foreign lands when our governments are committed to doing neither of that when it comes to domestic policies.   

[SoCal Deek]

8 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

With all due respect, what about Canada?  Should the US invade Canada to restore democracy?  Should NATO act?  Should the governments of other democracies express concerns and outrage at the invoking of emergency powers?  I mean, Putin puts one "activist" in jail and the entire world expresses condemnation but not a peep here from any democracy.  Should a Navy Seal Team be dispatched to Ottawa to abduct PM Trudeau and bring him to Washington to stand trial for crimes against his citizens?  

 

Because after Trudeau's emergency powers order I'm hard pressed to articulate what the difference is between living in Trudeau's Canada and Putin's Russia.  From where I sit Trudeau's actions are perfectly consistent with the way Putin or Xi would have handled it.  Some person or group resist your rule invoke powers and send in security forces to crush them and destroy their lives in the process along with anyone you identify that has provided any kind of support to their cause.  

 

So why ask fellow Canadians or Americans, to put their asses on the line to protect freedom and democracy in various foreign lands when our governments are committed to doing neither of that when it comes to domestic policies.   

Wait….Canada is an actual country? Since when?

 

(I just looked it up and apparently you’re right. Go figure!)

[Niagara Bill]

18 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

With all due respect, what about Canada?  Should the US invade Canada to restore democracy?  Should NATO act?  Should the governments of other democracies express concerns and outrage at the invoking of emergency powers?  I mean, Putin puts one "activist" in jail and the entire world expresses condemnation but not a peep here from any democracy.  Should a Navy Seal Team be dispatched to Ottawa to abduct PM Trudeau and bring him to Washington to stand trial for crimes against his citizens?  

 

Because after Trudeau's emergency powers order I'm hard pressed to articulate what the difference is between living in Trudeau's Canada and Putin's Russia.  From where I sit Trudeau's actions are perfectly consistent with the way Putin or Xi would have handled it.  Some person or group resist your rule invoke powers and send in security forces to crush them and destroy their lives in the process along with anyone you identify that has provided any kind of support to their cause.  

 

So why ask fellow Canadians or Americans, to put their asses on the line to protect freedom and democracy in various foreign lands when our governments are committed to doing neither of that when it comes to 

Wow, you are sooooooo knowledgeable about the world....I'm impressed. So let's see...protestors were allowed 3 weeks of illegal control, no one was killed, very very little violence  police were respectful, no looting, press access, warning after warning vs...

4 dead in Ohio, Watts, National guard in Virginia, 1968 Chicago, Jan 6, 20 yrs of Guantanamo, the highest prison rate in the western world. 

Yes Trudeau went too far with this law, which will not pass on Monday so a mute point, where unlike Russia, voting actually matters...a slightly different view than trump has in elections..

But is your protest focused on the freezing of your contribution...hmmmm

[Chef Jim]

25 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Wait….Canada is an actual country? Since when?

 

(I just looked it up and apparently you’re right. Go figure!)

 

Relax Bill. It’s a joke. 😉

[All_Pro_Bills]

23 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said:

Wow, you are sooooooo knowledgeable about the world....I'm impressed. So let's see...protestors were allowed 3 weeks of illegal control, no one was killed, very very little violence  police were respectful, no looting, press access, warning after warning vs...

4 dead in Ohio, Watts, National guard in Virginia, 1968 Chicago, Jan 6, 20 yrs of Guantanamo, the highest prison rate in the western world. 

Yes Trudeau went too far with this law, which will not pass on Monday so a mute point, where unlike Russia, voting actually matters...a slightly different view than trump has in elections..

But is your protest focused on the freezing of your contribution...hmmmm

Well, I'm glad you're impressed!!

[Chef Jim]

2 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Well, I'm glad you're impressed!!

He’s Canadian. Easy to impress. 
 

It’s another joke Bill. 

[B-Man]

Back to the thread......

 

 

MATT TAIBBI: Another All-Time Media Faceplant: After the Biden administration and the press wrongly predicted a Russian invasion of Ukraine on February 16th, they kept compounding the error in spectacular fashion.

 

 

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/another-all-time-media-faceplant?utm_source=url

 

 

 

 

[reddogblitz]

9 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Don’t need to. I thought your point, anyway, was that our invading a country in 2003 is the same as us trying to stop a war now. That’s stupid. 

 

That's not what I said. That's what you said I said.

 

You make patently ridiculous comments about the run up to the Iraq War.  I don't know if you were not paying attention 20 years ago or were too young. I provided a short video going over then Senator Biden's role.  Instead of watching it and discussing it you choose to be will fully ignorant cuz Go Donkey Team.  Sad.

 

 

[reddogblitz]

8 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Thank you. That’s my point. @reddogblitz

 

Situations may be different. Never said they weren't.  Its the same war monger guy making the decision that got the last one horribly wrong.  That's my concern.

 

Bush never could have led us to war without a lot of help from Senator Biden.  I know you don't want to believe that so stay willfully ignorant.

3 hours ago, Niagara Bill said:

So, if Ukraine is not important enough to have an actual war, what country is important enough for conflict. Georgia? Poland? Finland?

Can there be a war? If not how do you stop the new Hitler at a time of nuclear warheads. Russia has never been shy about sacrificing citizens in conflicts.

1938/39 saw the world wait too long...

2022, there will not be opertunity for conventional build up, 

 

Daunting challenges, 

 

This talk reminds me of "he gassed his own people."

 

Don't fall for this nonsense again.

[Niagara Bill]

Red...the question, when is the point of no return for a response. What us even possible with today's weapons

[B-Man]

 

 

Russian Military Has ‘Received Orders Now To Proceed With The Invasion’ Of Ukraine, Report Says.

One of these times it might actually happen.

 

 

https://www.dailywire.com/news/breaking-russian-military-has-received-orders-now-to-proceed-with-the-invasion-of-ukraine-report-says

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

11 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Russian Military Has ‘Received Orders Now To Proceed With The Invasion’ Of Ukraine, Report Says.

One of these times it might actually happen.

 

 

https://www.dailywire.com/news/breaking-russian-military-has-received-orders-now-to-proceed-with-the-invasion-of-ukraine-report-says

 

 

It's like US intelligence services are right there in the command bunker with Russian military commanders.  What's beautiful about it all is none of these reports can be verified or falsified.  So, if it's not today then its tomorrow. 

 

Or as the weather guy on the news said tonight.  It might rain and snow on Tuesday, or start as rain and turn to snow, or start as snow to rain, or stay all rain, or stay or snow, or mixed precipitation or we might not have any precipitation, or the Russians might attack on Monday and if not maybe on Tuesday.  Tune in Tuesday night for an update.

[B-Man]

9 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

It's like US intelligence services are right there in the command bunker with Russian military commanders.  What's beautiful about it all is none of these reports can be verified or falsified.  So, if it's not today then its tomorrow. 

 

Or as the weather guy on the news said tonight.  It might rain and snow on Tuesday, or start as rain and turn to snow, or start as snow to rain, or stay all rain, or stay or snow, or mixed precipitation or we might not have any precipitation, or the Russians might attack on Monday and if not maybe on Tuesday.  Tune in Tuesday night for an update.

 

 

 

I agree with you completely,

 

but I still think that I am going to fill both vehicles in the morning.

 

🤔