Bojo doing Bojo things

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, Mango said:

I find this really frustrating for different reasons.

 

Bojo>Haack and it doesn’t seem close. Why can’t Bojo figure this out…or anybody else? I hate that we have sign a lesser punter because of holding for the place holder. Makes me really angry at Bojo and the coaching staff. Like this had to be either teachable and/or replaceable with anybody else on the roster. 

 

You realize that Bojo has a whole 1.3 more ave yards than Haack so far this season?  He has one more punt than Haack, one more punt inside the 20, and 2 more that went OOB.  Haack's longest punt is 60 yds; Bojo's longest punt was 63.

 

I don't have a good source for detailed punting statistics.  Whence comes this angst and frustration over Bojo?

 

He didn't want to be here.  He wanted to be on the West Coast.  He wanted more money based on leading the league in average punts last season, but we all know he would boom one then shank one and for us last season, he had a lot of punts into the EZ.  So we looked elsewhere.

[Patrick Duffy]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You realize that Bojo has a whole 1.3 more ave yards than Haack so far this season?  He has one more punt than Haack, one more punt inside the 20, and 2 more that went OOB.  Haack's longest punt is 60 yds; Bojo's longest punt was 63.

 

I don't have a good source for detailed punting statistics.  Whence comes this angst and frustration over Bojo?

 

He didn't want to be here.  He wanted to be on the West Coast.  He wanted more money based on leading the league in average punts last season, but we all know he would boom one then shank one and for us last season, he had a lot of punts into the EZ.  So we looked elsewhere.

Yeah Hacck has been just fine. Only thing I was concerned about was it seemed he was a little slow getting the kicks away (the 1st game in particular with 1 getting blocked). But every game or punt since then he doesn't seem slow anymore. Gets em away about like any other Punter far as I can tell. I will say though that it's been a noticeable difference (for me anyway) with his kicks compared to 1st game. 

[benderbender]

Honest question I always meant to ask: I read his nickname as “Bo Joe,” but the j in Bojorquez is pronounced like an h. So are we all referring to him as “Boho” or “BoJoe?”

[letsgoteam]

I'm just going to take this time to pile on here. I'm not this fan normally, but I really dislike Bojo, not on a personal level, but as a player. His crappy holds always bothered more then they should have. First and only player I've yelled at the tv to cut him mid game. 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

*
*

Edited October 17, 2021 by Ridgewaycynic2013
Couldn't see Dean Wormer's face.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

"Number one, sell the teams on the wisdom of the P being the holder.  Number two, sell the teams on the intangibles of a left footed punter.  Number three, sit back an watch my evil geniusness take hold.  Where's my snacks?!"

[Mango]

5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You realize that Bojo has a whole 1.3 more ave yards than Haack so far this season?  He has one more punt than Haack, one more punt inside the 20, and 2 more that went OOB.  Haack's longest punt is 60 yds; Bojo's longest punt was 63.

 

I don't have a good source for detailed punting statistics.  Whence comes this angst and frustration over Bojo?

 

He didn't want to be here.  He wanted to be on the West Coast.  He wanted more money based on leading the league in average punts last season, but we all know he would boom one then shank one and for us last season, he had a lot of punts into the EZ.  So we looked elsewhere.

 

I’m frustrated in a general sense that Bojo can’t figure out a way to hold kicks. That seems like that should be a very teachable skill among all NFL players. It’s also frustrating that even if Bojo struggles with it the Bills sacrificed their punter partially because of it. And the Packers are no sacrificing their kicking. It is odd.

 

Whence the angst? There’s no angst but most wanted Bojo to stay. So it’s not a wild take. Although your “he didn’t want to be here” and “wanted to be out West” is the first I am hearing if either. He wanted more money than the Bills thought he was worth. As far as I know or have heard that is all that transpired.

 

Its odd you would mention this years punt average and also mention Bojo lead the league last year. You also omitted the blocked punt Haack has this year. A lot of things cost us the Steelers game. But a blocked punt for 7 points in a 7 point game has to be among the top. 

Haack has been not good, Bills fans hold their collective breaths every time he kicks. He doesn’t have a great leg, takes too long to get the ball out, and is partially responsible for losing the Steelers game.  
 

So yes, I would rather have Bojo, and don’t understand why neither Love nor Trubisky can hold for FG. 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

5 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

So yes, I would rather have Bojo, and don’t understand why neither Love nor Trubisky can hold for FG. 

Love Love holding? 🤔

[Rochesterfan]

5 hours ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

Yeah Hacck has been just fine. Only thing I was concerned about was it seemed he was a little slow getting the kicks away (the 1st game in particular with 1 getting blocked). But every game or punt since then he doesn't seem slow anymore. Gets em away about like any other Punter far as I can tell. I will say though that it's been a noticeable difference (for me anyway) with his kicks compared to 1st game. 

 

The one block was a failure by the line - not Haack.  They practiced the formation and the front still got lost and let a guy through unblocked.

 

That would have been a block against almost every punter - not just Haack.

 

Overall - Punting there is almost no difference between BoJo and Haack and Haack is a significantly better holder and was cheaper.

 

 

[BearNorth]

5 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 Haack is a significantly better holder and was cheaper.

 

Haack is quite a bit more expensive than Bojo.  Bojo 1.02MM, Haack 1.575MM cap hit.

[fergie's ire]

11 hours ago, Malazan said:

 

 

I asked about this back a little and a poster pointed me to Parcells explaining that it takes too much time to practice that the Backup QB does have with his own practice/meeting to prepare as the back and often running the scout team. So it seems that coaches have determined that's more important than the potential of a trick play since holding requires so much practice time. 

Then you can also have the situation where the starter goes down and then you have the starting QB as your holder.  Either you have to take precious snaps away from your starter or from practicing holding.  While quarterbacking is most important, if holding isn't practiced enough the guy could botch a hold and cost his team a playoff game.  You said it was Parcells who said this, right?  And have quarterbacks done this since Romo?  I think that might have been the end right there.

[Mango]

11 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

The one block was a failure by the line - not Haack.  They practiced the formation and the front still got lost and let a guy through unblocked.

 

That would have been a block against almost every punter - not just Haack.

 

Overall - Punting there is almost no difference between BoJo and Haack and Haack is a significantly better holder and was cheaper.

 

 

Didnt Tasker mention that he thought Haack was about 5 yards to shallow on the blocked punt?

[Rochesterfan]

8 minutes ago, BearNorth said:

Haack is quite a bit more expensive than Bojo.  Bojo 1.02MM, Haack 1.575MM cap hit.

 

That is because when he left no one would sign BoJo.  BoJo wasn’t signing in Buffalo for 1.02 million - that is what he was forced to take when after ever punting position was filled he was still without a partner.

 

Then he signed as a #3 punter in LA where his Girlfriend wanted to be on the west coast.  If GB had not lost their punter - he would have been completely out of a job.

 

 

[Patrick Duffy]

19 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

The one block was a failure by the line - not Haack.  They practiced the formation and the front still got lost and let a guy through unblocked.

 

That would have been a block against almost every punter - not just Haack.

 

Overall - Punting there is almost no difference between BoJo and Haack and Haack is a significantly better holder and was cheaper.

 

 

While true the line blocking was a factor, I stand by my statement he looked slow getting the kicks away which can also lead to a blocked punt. I'm not the only one that said this, recall other posters noticed he looked slow getting kick away also. 

 

But as I said earlier, he doesn't look slow anymore. Since then he gets kick away about like any other punter.

[Rochesterfan]

8 minutes ago, Mango said:

Didnt Tasker mention that he thought Haack was about 5 yards to shallow on the blocked punt?

 

Tasker said that and then subsequent research showed that is the depth most kickers give when they are kicking inside the 20 for the last several years.  They narrow the split even more when they hit the end zone.

 

It was not a Haack or Buffalo thing, but a new special teams trend.

 

It makes it even more important that the inside guys block inside out and don’t let someone go unblocked.

 

 

[Mango]

1 minute ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Tasker said that and then subsequent research showed that is the depth most kickers give when they are kicking inside the 20 for the last several years.  They narrow the split even more when they hit the end zone.

 

It was not a Haack or Buffalo thing, but a new special teams trend.

 

It makes it even more important that the inside guys block inside out and don’t let someone go unblocked.

 

 

 

Im not necessarily questioning you, but do you have a link to the “subsequent research”

[Rochesterfan]

9 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

Im not necessarily questioning you, but do you have a link to the “subsequent research”

 

It was in the original thread - I believe Hap was looking at it.

[BillsFan4]

I posted this over in the around the NFL thread the day after the game but figured I’d post it here again.

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/10/11/bills-chiefs-afc-nfl-week-5-fmia-peter-king/

 

In Peter King’s football morning in America column that comes out every Monday he mentioned this:

 

Quote

It always interests me, the mindset and approach of field-goal kickers. There was a gusting wind on a warm afternoon in Cincinnati, the wind blowing in different directions up to 20 mph. The 51-yard miss got caught in a hard right to left wind, he thought. [B]Crosby’s not sure, but he thinks one or more of the kicks may not have had the laces facing straight ahead; when they’re to either side, the ball can be a knuckleball[/B]He’ll see the tape today and figure if the snap-hold part of the equation needs adjusting. 

Crosby mentioned that he didn’t think the laces were facing the right way.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Mango said:

I’m frustrated in a general sense that Bojo can’t figure out a way to hold kicks. That seems like that should be a very teachable skill among all NFL players. It’s also frustrating that even if Bojo struggles with it the Bills sacrificed their punter partially because of it. And the Packers are no sacrificing their kicking. It is odd.

 

Perhaps he's perfect in practice, but struggles with focus in games.  Remember the bizarre "unlateral fake fieldgoal"?

 

Or perhaps he just doesn't put in the work to master the skill.  Teacher can't teach if the student won't practice.  My impression was that Bojo knew he had a boom-tastic leg as a punter and became a bit of a "legend in his own mind". 

 

Actually, with only 32 punter jobs in the NFL, refusing a contract is symptomatic of this.

 

2 hours ago, Mango said:

Whence the angst? There’s no angst but most wanted Bojo to stay. So it’s not a wild take. Although your “he didn’t want to be here” and “wanted to be out West” is the first I am hearing if either.

 

I had a quick try to find it and failed (not the first time I can't find something I know was there) It was discussed in the various RFA/FA threads about keep/let walk last Feb/Mar.

 

Supposedly Bojo had a smokin' hot "keeper" girlfriend who wanted to be on the West coast, and did not want him locked up >1 yr in B'lo (hence his refusal to consider a longer deal).

 

I hope she's enjoying Green Bay.

 

2 hours ago, Mango said:

Its odd you would mention this years punt average and also mention Bojo lead the league last year. You also omitted the blocked punt Haack has this year. A lot of things cost us the Steelers game. But a blocked punt for 7 points in a 7 point game has to be among the top. 

 

A blocked punt most certainly is.  Do we mention Bojo's blocked punts in 2018 and 2019 then?  He and Haack now have the overall same number.

 

I also didn't mention Bojo's short shanks that kept his average low despite all the 60 yd boomers, or that unilateral fake fieldgoal. 

 

2 hours ago, Mango said:

Haack has been not good, Bills fans hold their collective breaths every time he kicks. He doesn’t have a great leg, takes too long to get the ball out, and is partially responsible for losing the Steelers game. 

 

I don't hold my breath.  Haack had a blocked punt in 2018 and another this year that was a clear missed blocking assignment.  Could he have got the ball out faster sure but it's not all on him.  He doesn't have a great leg, but he's got an average punt distance exactly 1.3 yds less than the guy you're lamenting, despite said guy's boomer leg.  What's that tell you?

 

Sounds like Bojo has become a bit of a legend in your mind as well?

 

1 hour ago, BearNorth said:

Haack is quite a bit more expensive than Bojo.  Bojo 1.02MM, Haack 1.575MM cap hit.

 

He's more expensive than Bojo eventually signed for with the Rams after sitting on the sofa most of FA, but he's not more expensive than giving Bojo a 2nd round tender or the 1 yr contract he supposedly wanted.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

Didnt Tasker mention that he thought Haack was about 5 yards to shallow on the blocked punt?

 

He mentioned that he was too shallow.  He was at about 13 yds, IIRC.

 

I can't find statistics, but I've been looking at punters carefully since then, and my eyes in the same game (so not adjusting for wind or punter preference) the punters are closer to the LOS when they're punting from inside their own 20.  

 

On the other hand, I've also been watching Haack since then and he tends to stand 13 yds back from the LOS consistently.

[benderbender]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

He mentioned that he was too shallow.  He was at about 13 yds, IIRC.

 

I can't find statistics, but I've been looking at punters carefully since then, and my eyes in the same game (so not adjusting for wind or punter preference) the punters are closer to the LOS when they're punting from inside their own 20.  

 

On the other hand, I've also been watching Haack since then and he tends to stand 13 yds back from the LOS consistently.

Haack has 12 return yards on 14 punts this year. How is this possible? He takes multiple steps and lets his coverage team get downfield a second or two longer for little to no return. The danger is the possibility of blocks. But he's only had 3 blocks in his college and NFL career. His blocked punt this year was a game killer, but that was a blown blocking assignment and two yards of separation wasn't saving that play. Haack is a proficient holder, doesn't have a ridiculous mustache, and is known for his ability to fake a kick. Boho can kick far sometimes. No competition in my mind. 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

3 minutes ago, benderbender said:

Haack has 12 return yards on 14 punts this year. How is this possible? He takes multiple steps and lets his coverage team get downfield a second or two longer for little to no return. The danger is the possibility of blocks. But he's only had 3 blocks in his college and NFL career. His blocked punt this year was a game killer, but that was a blown blocking assignment and two yards of separation wasn't saving that play. Haack is a proficient holder, doesn't have a ridiculous mustache, and is known for his ability to fake a kick. Boho can kick far sometimes. No competition in my mind. 

when I looked into this a little More, he may have a few other blocks. They don’t count it as a block of the ball is blocked but travels past the LOS. 
 

But I agree— I think the slow release helps the coverage.

[Doc]

He'll probably be looking for work again soon.  Sometimes you make the wrong decision...

 

As for Haack, the Bills should look to upgrade in the off-season and they can cut him after the season with just a $700K dead cap.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

13 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

All is certainly true - the difference is expected positional spend.  
 

Most teams don’t want to spend more than 1 million to 1.15 million on a punter.  If you cut him - and sign even a draft pick - you are over budget.

 

Most people didn’t think they would cut Star this year because his cost combined with a replacement cost would’ve exceeded typical position spend.  Most people assumed this would be his last year as his dead hit is small enough when combined with a replacement to fit typical budget for that position.

 

They might sign a punter - you are correct, but I just think they are fine with his play and they are much less concerned than some fans.  I think they also really like the way the 3 specialists (punter, kicker, and LS) get along and work together.  I don’t think they will mess with that as it is important to this staff.

 

 

 

Yeah I was referring to cutting him in 2022 also.  Admittedly the way he's been playing could see instead they keep him another year, maybe draft in 2nd or 3rd round his replacement and let him sit and learn for a year or at least not be starting.

 

Agree with the positional spend concept, will see.  Of all the starting positions (admittedly calling a punter a starter is a stretch) punter may be the weakest. Only other area possibly as shaky is interior line, but seems to be holding up.

[Kmart128]

15 hours ago, Wnybricky said:

We need a new punter too. I expect one in the draft

Why... he hasnt been bad. He is averaging 44.4 yards a punt. About same as his career average. Everyone is slowing him being slow caused that punt block but he has had 320+ punts in his career and only 2 of them have been blocked. That is a huge outlier

Edited October 17, 2021 by Kmart128

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

14 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

All is certainly true - the difference is expected positional spend.  
 

Most teams don’t want to spend more than 1 million to 1.15 million on a punter.  If you cut him - and sign even a draft pick - you are over budget.

 

Most people didn’t think they would cut Star this year because his cost combined with a replacement cost would’ve exceeded typical position spend.  Most people assumed this would be his last year as his dead hit is small enough when combined with a replacement to fit typical budget for that position.

 

They might sign a punter - you are correct, but I just think they are fine with his play and they are much less concerned than some fans.  I think they also really like the way the 3 specialists (punter, kicker, and LS) get along and work together.  I don’t think they will mess with that as it is important to this staff.

 

 

 

This article today certainly supports you're comments!

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/he-s-got-a-little-swagger-about-him-bills-kicker-tyler-bass-grows-more-confident/article_efaccf84-2ec5-11ec-ace8-73365fdf177e.html

[Mr. WEO]

I'n not buying this.  Until that game, Crosby (with Bojo) had been 6/6 on FG and 11/11 on PATS.   Then in one game he misses a PAT and 3 FG (including 36 and 40 yards--barely longer than PATs).

 

It's on the Kicker.

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

I'n not buying this.  Until that game, Crosby (with Bojo) had been 6/6 on FG and 11/11 on PATS.   Then in one game he misses a PAT and 3 FG (including 36 and 40 yards--barely longer than PATs).

 

It's on the Kicker.

He had trouble last year with the Bills as well. It’s Bojo. 

[Madbillsfan]

Wow.  It amazes me at how a few wins will make a fan base so arrogant and after reading this, defensive. 

[Patrick Duffy]

13 minutes ago, Doc said:

He had trouble last year with the Bills as well. It’s Bojo. 

 

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

I'n not buying this.  Until that game, Crosby (with Bojo) had been 6/6 on FG and 11/11 on PATS.   Then in one game he misses a PAT and 3 FG (including 36 and 40 yards--barely longer than PATs).

 

It's on the Kicker.

I would say it likely that a little is on both of them. 

[Doc]

7 minutes ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

I would say it likely that a little is on both of them. 

Both teams have excellent kickers.  The issues with the missed field goals last year with the Bills and this year with the Packers has mostly been with ball orientation. The constant between the two has been Bojo, which is why I believe it’s him. 

[Patrick Duffy]

11 minutes ago, Doc said:

Both teams have excellent kickers.  The issues with the missed field goals last year with the Bills and this year with the Packers has mostly been with ball orientation. The constant between the two has been Bojo, which is why I believe it’s him. 

I mean it could be on one a little more than other. Anyway,did you see the 4 kicks that he missed and the hold for each one? Asking because I haven't so don't know. In any event we know Bojo messed up at least one of the holds for sure of the 4 kicks. I'd be willing to bet that he didn't mess up on every single hold that FG/XP was missed. 

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, Doc said:

Both teams have excellent kickers.  The issues with the missed field goals last year with the Bills and this year with the Packers has mostly been with ball orientation. The constant between the two has been Bojo, which is why I believe it’s him. 

 

Bass showed up as a 71% Senior year kicker.  It showed the first month.    But then, With Bojo, he had 12 games without a miss for the season.  In fact after kicking 6 FG against the Jets in week 7, he would only miss 3 more in the next 12 weeks (23/26) through the playoffs.  52/55 PATs all year.  

 

This continued with Crosby: zero misses until week 5, when he was missing chip shots.  But yeah despite all that, must be Bojo.....

[Steel City Mafia]

 

[Patrick Duffy]

10 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Bass showed up as a 71% Senior year kicker.  It showed the first month.    But then, With Bojo, he had 12 games without a miss for the season.  In fact after kicking 6 FG against the Jets in week 7, he would only miss 3 more in the next 12 weeks (23/26) through the playoffs.  52/55 PATs all year.  

 

This continued with Crosby: zero misses until week 5, when he was missing chip shots.  But yeah despite all that, must be Bojo.....

Yeah it's kinda like some are saying Bojo is sole reason. I mean the guy has had few bad holds, but some seem to imply any and every FG that is missed is on Bojo due to bad holds. That's simply not the case.

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

Yeah it's kinda like some are saying Bojo is sole reason. I mean the guy has had few bad holds, but some seem to imply any and every FG that is missed is on Bojo due to bad holds. That's simply not the case.

 

Yup.  You can't say Bass is an "excellent kicker" and in the same breath claim Bojo was a bad holder.  Also, Crosby had no problems with Bojo holding for a month.  Then in the Cincy game he clearly had the yips.  You can't blame the holder for 3 misses from PAT, 36 and 40.  It's all an absurd argument.

[Doc]

2 hours ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

I mean it could be on one a little more than other. Anyway,did you see the 4 kicks that he missed and the hold for each one? Asking because I haven't so don't know. In any event we know Bojo messed up at least one of the holds for sure of the 4 kicks. I'd be willing to bet that he didn't mess up on every single hold that FG/XP was missed. 

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Bass showed up as a 71% Senior year kicker.  It showed the first month.    But then, With Bojo, he had 12 games without a miss for the season.  In fact after kicking 6 FG against the Jets in week 7, he would only miss 3 more in the next 12 weeks (23/26) through the playoffs.  52/55 PATs all year.  

 

This continued with Crosby: zero misses until week 5, when he was missing chip shots.  But yeah despite all that, must be Bojo.....

 

As I said, if one guy is the constant (i.e. the K and LS are the same) with 2 different teams who are having kicking issues, it's likely that guy who is the problem.  Last year when Bass (a college 79.4% kicker, nice try) had a rough start to the season, Jay Feely, a former NFL kicker, said during a telecast that he analyzed the misses and said it was on the holder for not getting the ball into proper orientation.  And we know for sure that at least 1 of Crosby's misses was on Bojo. 

[Mr. WEO]

36 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

As I said, if one guy is the constant (i.e. the K and LS are the same) with 2 different teams who are having kicking issues, it's likely that guy who is the problem.  Last year when Bass (a college 79.4% kicker, nice try) had a rough start to the season, Jay Feely, a former NFL kicker, said during a telecast that he analyzed the misses and said it was on the holder for not getting the ball into proper orientation.  And we know for sure that at least 1 of Crosby's misses was on Bojo. 

 

He had one season over 80%.  He came out after a  Senior season of barely over 70%.  

 

As I documented, no problems with Bojo holding after the first month or so of his 2020 season.  You can't (so you didn't) dispute this.

 

Crosby/Bojo missed zero Pat/FG until las week.  Zero.  Then, in one game, Crosby was missing chip shots.  He was a mess.  Made all 4 kicks today.

 

You ignore all of the success of 2 kickers between early last year and up to last week and conclude Bojo is a problem--because Bass/Bojo struggled over year ago for a bit.  That's an impossible argument to convincingly make.

 

How do we know "for sure" one of the many misses was on Bojo?  The OP's article cites struggles of the LS....and notes that Bojo got the laces out ("late", but out).

 

 

If you want modify your argument to "Bojo had maybe one (maybe even 2) bad holds since week 6 of 2020", then go right ahead.  

 

[LABILLBACKER]

On 10/16/2021 at 5:09 PM, BearNorth said:

Knowing McDermott's attention to detail, wondering if his place kick holding was why Bojo is now with his third team.  Sure's he not happy about the game-changing punt block against the Steelers, but Bojo's holding adventures aren't new.

Not thrilled with Haack taking 3 steps to punt the damn ball. I miss Moorman.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

8 hours ago, Steel City Mafia said:

 

Great kick, but also kinda misplayed there. The returner catches that, and he probably has a lot of room to get some of that yardage back. 

 

That said, Bojo has a great leg, no doubt. He also started to really improve on his pooch kicks. In the end, I think he just wanted too much money and overestimated his market value.