The foundation under Dr. Fauci is starting to crack...

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

Then shouldn't Dr. F finally just shut the heck up already!  His desire to be in the spotlight is a HUGE part of the problem. He's addicted to the microphone.  He needs to step back, step off, and let the Organizations set the narrative.  Either head of the CDC needs to be the mouthpiece now....or Dr. F....but not both.

Not a bad idea.

[reddogblitz]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

 

I choose to be happy about the CDC guidelines as they show that vaccinated folks are in great shape.  You choose to gripe about things.  I’ll take my outlook.

 

I too am happy about the CDC decision and believe it to be a good decision.

 

At the same time I just find it really odd that one week ago it was "maybe next mother's Day" and now its wide open if you're vaccinated.

 

I like it but it seems to have come out of left field. 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, reddogblitz said:

 

I too am happy about the CDC decision and believe it to be a good decision.

 

At the same time I just find it really odd that one week ago it was "maybe next mother's Day" and now its wide open if you're vaccinated.

 

I like it but it seems to have come out of left field. 

I think it got influenced a lot by the several studies indicating vaccinated folks have very small likelihood of spreading virus.  So they are protected and also won’t infect others.  That said, I wish they would have given a head’s up to the governors so they could have been ready with their state specific directives.

[Doc Brown]

17 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I too am happy about the CDC decision and believe it to be a good decision.

 

At the same time I just find it really odd that one week ago it was "maybe next mother's Day" and now its wide open if you're vaccinated.

 

I like it but it seems to have come out of left field. 

There's a big difference between "life back to normal" by next mother's day and the recent CDC decision that you don't have to wear a mask if vaccinated.  Until we reach a certain level of population protection (herd immunity they're calling it) life won't get back to normal completely.  Non vaccinated people will still be asked to wear a mask and may not be able to even enter certain events without some sort of vaccination proof.  I see the CDC's decision as another incentive for the hesitant adults to get vaccinated.  They recognize though that there's a certain anti vax group they'll never reach so relying on vaccinating kids is even more vital.

 

Since kids make up about 23 percent of the population in order to reach herd immunity (or at least building up population protection in more of an incremental way) it will be up to developing vaccines that are effective for children.  One's already approve for kids 12 and up.  There's already a big push to get them vaccinated.  Moderna and AstroZeneca are also working on vaccines for children so hopefully those will be approved to increase supply.  The next step logically will be to focus on developing vaccines for kids younger than 12 and we don't know how long that will take to both develop and distribute.  I see Mother's Day of next year as a conservative estimate but it's better to set expectations low so you can claim victory when you exceed them.

[oldmanfan]

24 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

There's a big difference between "life back to normal" by next mother's day and the recent CDC decision that you don't have to wear a mask if vaccinated.  Until we reach a certain level of population protection (herd immunity they're calling it) life won't get back to normal completely.  Non vaccinated people will still be asked to wear a mask and may not be able to even enter certain events without some sort of vaccination proof.  I see the CDC's decision as another incentive for the hesitant adults to get vaccinated.  They recognize though that there's a certain anti vax group they'll never reach so relying on vaccinating kids is even more vital.

 

Since kids make up about 23 percent of the population in order to reach herd immunity (or at least building up population protection in more of an incremental way) it will be up to developing vaccines that are effective for children.  One's already approve for kids 12 and up.  There's already a big push to get them vaccinated.  Moderna and AstroZeneca are also working on vaccines for children so hopefully those will be approved to increase supply.  The next step logically will be to focus on developing vaccines for kids younger than 12 and we don't know how long that will take to both develop and distribute.  I see Mother's Day of next year as a conservative estimate but it's better to set expectations low so you can claim victory when you exceed them.

All good points.  I would say given the low mortality/morbidity in kids under 12 I think most states will say that schools will open without masks this fall.

[Doc Brown]

12 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

All good points.  I would say given the low mortality/morbidity in kids under 12 I think most states will say that schools will open without masks this fall.

Probably.  Unless a vaccine is developed and approved before fall for kids under 12.  Depending on the state as they have full jurisdiction on vaccine mandates for schools.   They also have the power to lift the religious exemption which I'm sure the teacher unions will be pushing for.  Even though kids have low mortality/morbidity they can still spread it so the most likely scenario in the is the non vaccinated kids will still be required to wear masks in school in bluer states.

[B-Man]

 

 

 

Dr. Fauci Boards the Woke Train and Leaves No Doubt

 

 

The case of Dr. Anthony Fauci is a cautionary tale. It reminds us that there are no apolitical figures in politics, and that includes the legions of career bureaucrats, almost all of whom are on the left.

 

For Fauci’s part, he’s played the role of “expert” about as well as a five-year-old attempting to perform Shakespeare (see Dr. Fauci Is Left Stammering After He’s Challenged on Free States vs. Lockdown States). While always claiming impartiality and a laser focus on “the science,” he has devolved into a completely partisan actor. That started under Trump, but it is Joe Biden who has truly set Fauci free to be the left-wing hack he’s always been.

 

Thus, you get the doctor boarding the woke train this weekend and leaving no doubt about his desire to push certain political narratives.

 

This per Fox News.

Dr. Anthony Fauci, the nation’s top infectious disease expert, said Sunday the coronavirus outbreak in the U.S. “shone a bright light on our own society’s failings” in how the virus impacted minority communities.

Fauci stated that “the undeniable effects of racism” have led to unacceptable health disparities that especially hurt African Americans, Latinos and Native Americans during the pandemic…

…”Now, very few of these comorbidities have racial determinants,” Fauci said.

“Almost all relate to the social determinants of health dating back to disadvantageous conditions that some people of color find themselves in from birth regarding the availability of an adequate diet, access to health care, and the undeniable effects of racism in our society,” he continued.

 

Fauci’s commentary is typical of what we’ve heard from Democrats over the course of the pandemic. Claims that the virus perpetuates systemic racism have become commonplace. In this cause, Fauci’s commentary is light on facts, and heavy on intersectionalist rhetoric.

 

More at the link:

https://redstate.com/bonchie/2021/05/17/dr-fauci-boards-the-woke-train-and-leaves-no-doubt-n381615

[T master]

On 5/15/2021 at 8:01 PM, LeGOATski said:

You don't seem to be understanding the concept. It's the same as getting the flu vax each year. We all know that if you get the flu shot, you're much less likely to get badly sick or spread the flu.

 

If you get the covid shot, you're much less likely to get badly sick or spread the covid.

 

The population should get vaxxed and get away from the masks, but we're all too busy bitching and moaning about it all.

 

I totally understand what your saying but i have never gotten a flu shot and praise god have only had the flu once when i was a kid & since the start of this entire covid thing add to it the vaccine being a huge human trial with no history of what this thing could possibly do long term i'm going to boost my immune system by vitamins and have faith in what god gave me first .

 

Right out of the gate they have pushed for a vaccine and to my knowledge Fauci has never said or i haven't heard him mention the common sense first step to boost our immune system and take vitamin D along with vitamins but have always pushed for the vaccine then you look at what some like Cuomo have done with the elderly knowing they were the most vulnerable i for sure am not putting my faith in them .

 

Now the flip flop with the CDC the mask thing being worse for you in some instances than not having one plus now vaccinating children when they have the lowest rate of death it just seems this push for a vaccine has a underlying theme it .

 

I know a lot of people would call me foolish for not getting it but ill wait till i have more input from this massive trial to make my decision . 

 

 

[oldmanfan]

4 minutes ago, T master said:

 

I totally understand what your saying but i have never gotten a flu shot and praise god have only had the flu once when i was a kid & since the start of this entire covid thing add to it the vaccine being a huge human trial with no history of what this thing could possibly do long term i'm going to boost my immune system by vitamins and have faith in what god gave me first .

 

Right out of the gate they have pushed for a vaccine and to my knowledge Fauci has never said or i haven't heard him mention the common sense first step to boost our immune system and take vitamin D along with vitamins but have always pushed for the vaccine then you look at what some like Cuomo have done with the elderly knowing they were the most vulnerable i for sure am not putting my faith in them .

 

Now the flip flop with the CDC the mask thing being worse for you in some instances than not having one plus now vaccinating children when they have the lowest rate of death it just seems this push for a vaccine has a underlying theme it .

 

I know a lot of people would call me foolish for not getting it but ill wait till i have more input from this massive trial to make my decision . 

 

 

Let me try to explain, and I hope it will help you decide to get vaccinated.

 

When they say that Covid-19 was a novel virus, that is precisely what was meant.  With new viruses expressing new spike proteins in Covid-19's case, the body has not had a chance to build immunity.  And this virus was very unpredictable.  First, the long latency period of two weeks before symptoms occurred.  That greatly enhanced the spread of the virus, in that people could infect others without knowing they had it.  Add then that the clinical course of the infection was unpredictable, in that some remained unsymptomatic whereas the number of deaths now approaches 600,000, and you see the seriousness of this virus.

 

I don't think anyone would argue that boosting one's own immune system and such is a bad thing.  But in the face of a very infectious pathogen like Covid-19, the issue is what if doing so doesn't work?  Then you die, or you have serious long term morbidity if you are one that becomes seriously affected.  The reason vaccines are being advised, and even for children, comes down to basics about virology.  Viruses need host cells to replicate, specifically our cells.  The more people vaccinated such that they no longer become hosts (i.e. herd immunity) the less opportunity for the virus to hang around and it eventually becomes controlled or hopefully eradicated.  The reason children should also get vaccinated is that they too can get Covid (although the mortality rate is much lower it is still there as are longer term complications) and because they harbor the virus and act as hosts.  The longer we let the virus hang around, the more it can infect and the more it can mutate and potential become even more infectious (such as the U.K variant).   

 

Now to concerns about the vaccine.  The mRNA vaccines have actually been in development for a long time, and before getting EUA they had to go through the usual phases of clinical trials to look at potential damaging effects and such.  I sit on an FDA advisory panel, and I can assure you that these clinical trials and the data obtained from them are taken extraordinarily seriously by the FDA.  The tens of thousands of patients enrolled in the trials for especially the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines showed no serious side effects and extremely good rates of success in generating an immune response against Covid.  And now since those vaccines have gone into widespread use there are millions of people that have been vaccinated, and the FDA and CDC follow up on adverse reactions.  The sum of that is the two mRNA vaccines used in the U.S. show remarkably high effectiveness rates in promoting an immune response and helping the vaccinated individual fight off Covid.  Serious side effects and deaths from Covid with these vaccines are virtually nil.  And more recent data provides evidence that the ability of vaccinated persons to harbor and spread the virus is also very low.  These findings, together with the efficiency in preventing illness and the marked decrease in infection and mortality rates since widespread vaccine distribution has started, allowed the CDC to make their recommendation last week.  And they have made the Pfizer vaccine a candidate for full FDA authorization, which I expect to see shortly.  Concerns about long term effects from the vaccine are understandable.  But if you look at the mRNA vaccines they are basically the mRNA, some salts, and some lipids (fats) to help keep the mRNA soluble.  There really is nothing there that should cause any long term effects; the mRNA is degraded by the cell after it is used to direct synthesis of the viral spike protein part.  

 

Regarding masks, flip flopping, and such, it is regrettable that what is a public health crisis turned into a political football.  There has not been flip flopping per se.  Rather, what we have seen is an evolution in how we deal with Covid as scientists gather more data on prevention and treatment and such.  Dr. Fauci is criticized time and again for flip flopping on masks, with the statement in March of last year about how the public should not wear masks being misinterpreted.  What he was referring to at that time was that he did not want the mask supply to be taken away from front line health care workers.  At that time we did not know exactly how the virus was transmitted, and what the effectiveness of various masks, distancing, and such would be.  Studies were done showing that masks of different types mitigated against the spread of droplets and aerosols, which were found to be the main modes of transmission.  Note I said mitigate and not prevent; anti-mask folks like to say the masks don't prevent anything as if it were a black and white, works or doesn't work issue.  And it is not.  As more and more studies are done we find that the risk of infection outdoors is much lower than indoors and recommendations then change when you're outside.  And so on.  This is how science works; it is not flip flopping, it is good science.  You continue to build information and as you do you change treatment strategies and recommendations.  Look at other medical conditions such as heart disease or cancer.  We don't treat people the same way today as we did even a year ago, because new data and findings come into focus and cause changes is strategies.  The same thing has happened with Covid over the past 14 months and will continue to do so.  

 

In your last sentence you indicate you want to see more results before deciding.  The results are in on millions of folks now, and they show that these vaccines are tremendously effective against Covid.  Almost historically effective.  And with few if any serious side effects.  So please do your part and get the vaccine.  I hope some of what I've written here helps guide you down that path.  

 

 

[T master]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Let me try to explain, and I hope it will help you decide to get vaccinated.

 

When they say that Covid-19 was a novel virus, that is precisely what was meant.  With new viruses expressing new spike proteins in Covid-19's case, the body has not had a chance to build immunity.  And this virus was very unpredictable.  First, the long latency period of two weeks before symptoms occurred.  That greatly enhanced the spread of the virus, in that people could infect others without knowing they had it.  Add then that the clinical course of the infection was unpredictable, in that some remained unsymptomatic whereas the number of deaths now approaches 600,000, and you see the seriousness of this virus.

 

I don't think anyone would argue that boosting one's own immune system and such is a bad thing.  But in the face of a very infectious pathogen like Covid-19, the issue is what if doing so doesn't work?  Then you die, or you have serious long term morbidity if you are one that becomes seriously affected.  The reason vaccines are being advised, and even for children, comes down to basics about virology.  Viruses need host cells to replicate, specifically our cells.  The more people vaccinated such that they no longer become hosts (i.e. herd immunity) the less opportunity for the virus to hang around and it eventually becomes controlled or hopefully eradicated.  The reason children should also get vaccinated is that they too can get Covid (although the mortality rate is much lower it is still there as are longer term complications) and because they harbor the virus and act as hosts.  The longer we let the virus hang around, the more it can infect and the more it can mutate and potential become even more infectious (such as the U.K variant).   

 

Now to concerns about the vaccine.  The mRNA vaccines have actually been in development for a long time, and before getting EUA they had to go through the usual phases of clinical trials to look at potential damaging effects and such.  I sit on an FDA advisory panel, and I can assure you that these clinical trials and the data obtained from them are taken extraordinarily seriously by the FDA.  The tens of thousands of patients enrolled in the trials for especially the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines showed no serious side effects and extremely good rates of success in generating an immune response against Covid.  And now since those vaccines have gone into widespread use there are millions of people that have been vaccinated, and the FDA and CDC follow up on adverse reactions.  The sum of that is the two mRNA vaccines used in the U.S. show remarkably high effectiveness rates in promoting an immune response and helping the vaccinated individual fight off Covid.  Serious side effects and deaths from Covid with these vaccines are virtually nil.  And more recent data provides evidence that the ability of vaccinated persons to harbor and spread the virus is also very low.  These findings, together with the efficiency in preventing illness and the marked decrease in infection and mortality rates since widespread vaccine distribution has started, allowed the CDC to make their recommendation last week.  And they have made the Pfizer vaccine a candidate for full FDA authorization, which I expect to see shortly.  Concerns about long term effects from the vaccine are understandable.  But if you look at the mRNA vaccines they are basically the mRNA, some salts, and some lipids (fats) to help keep the mRNA soluble.  There really is nothing there that should cause any long term effects; the mRNA is degraded by the cell after it is used to direct synthesis of the viral spike protein part.  

 

Regarding masks, flip flopping, and such, it is regrettable that what is a public health crisis turned into a political football.  There has not been flip flopping per se.  Rather, what we have seen is an evolution in how we deal with Covid as scientists gather more data on prevention and treatment and such.  Dr. Fauci is criticized time and again for flip flopping on masks, with the statement in March of last year about how the public should not wear masks being misinterpreted.  What he was referring to at that time was that he did not want the mask supply to be taken away from front line health care workers.  At that time we did not know exactly how the virus was transmitted, and what the effectiveness of various masks, distancing, and such would be.  Studies were done showing that masks of different types mitigated against the spread of droplets and aerosols, which were found to be the main modes of transmission.  Note I said mitigate and not prevent; anti-mask folks like to say the masks don't prevent anything as if it were a black and white, works or doesn't work issue.  And it is not.  As more and more studies are done we find that the risk of infection outdoors is much lower than indoors and recommendations then change when you're outside.  And so on.  This is how science works; it is not flip flopping, it is good science.  You continue to build information and as you do you change treatment strategies and recommendations.  Look at other medical conditions such as heart disease or cancer.  We don't treat people the same way today as we did even a year ago, because new data and findings come into focus and cause changes is strategies.  The same thing has happened with Covid over the past 14 months and will continue to do so.  

 

In your last sentence you indicate you want to see more results before deciding.  The results are in on millions of folks now, and they show that these vaccines are tremendously effective against Covid.  Almost historically effective.  And with few if any serious side effects.  So please do your part and get the vaccine.  I hope some of what I've written here helps guide you down that path.  

 

 

 

It is a great help thank you for the reply but here is another question .

 

I as recently as 3 yrs ago went to a Dr. because i had a sinus infection he recommended a FDA approved medication that had went through all the normal testing which took some yrs to get so they started prescribing said meds to the public now some 3 yrs later the exact med he prescribed me is known to cause cancer .

 

This is the type of unknown that i am trying to avoid one med fixing one thing & later causing another which is or could be even worse than what you originally went to the Dr. for that being the reason why i choose to wait .

 

I know medicine & treatments changes according to data as far as every virus or disease that we encounter but big pharma (IMHO) sometimes has the all mighty dollar at the fore front of their motivation, just like Monsanto & round up they don't care that they knew it caused none hodgkins lymphoma & still leave it on the market despite the evidence .

 

Sure there are law suits now to get reimbursed but my friend that died as a direct result of the use of it can not be brought back no matter how much money they give the family which could result in the same out come with this we just don't know enough as of yet .

 

Those are the concerns i have not about the short term that's great that it's doing well to help the curve but what do we know long term ? We don't yet so until i personally feel i know what i need to to feel safe enough to get it i'll wait . I have nothing against those that get it & the with co morbidity's should definitely get it i on the other hand am almost 60 & am on no meds 🙌 !!

 

As i said and praise god for it !! I have never had a flu shot except 1 time when i was a very young kid and the lord has blessed me with a very healthy life and a apparently strong immune system so besides vitamins to help what he has given me to fight off this virus i will depend on common sense, compassion & respect for others with distancing & use of masks . The lord and a lot of prayer ! 

 

But i appreciate your explanation and what you do to help those such as me understand these things !!!!! 

[716er]

1 hour ago, T master said:

I as recently as 3 yrs ago went to a Dr. because i had a sinus infection he recommended a FDA approved medication that had went through all the normal testing which took some yrs to get so they started prescribing said meds to the public now some 3 yrs later the exact med he prescribed me is known to cause cancer

 

What medication was this?

[Pokebball]

4 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Let me try to explain, and I hope it will help you decide to get vaccinated.

 

When they say that Covid-19 was a novel virus, that is precisely what was meant.  With new viruses expressing new spike proteins in Covid-19's case, the body has not had a chance to build immunity.  And this virus was very unpredictable.  First, the long latency period of two weeks before symptoms occurred.  That greatly enhanced the spread of the virus, in that people could infect others without knowing they had it.  Add then that the clinical course of the infection was unpredictable, in that some remained unsymptomatic whereas the number of deaths now approaches 600,000, and you see the seriousness of this virus.

 

I don't think anyone would argue that boosting one's own immune system and such is a bad thing.  But in the face of a very infectious pathogen like Covid-19, the issue is what if doing so doesn't work?  Then you die, or you have serious long term morbidity if you are one that becomes seriously affected.  The reason vaccines are being advised, and even for children, comes down to basics about virology.  Viruses need host cells to replicate, specifically our cells.  The more people vaccinated such that they no longer become hosts (i.e. herd immunity) the less opportunity for the virus to hang around and it eventually becomes controlled or hopefully eradicated.  The reason children should also get vaccinated is that they too can get Covid (although the mortality rate is much lower it is still there as are longer term complications) and because they harbor the virus and act as hosts.  The longer we let the virus hang around, the more it can infect and the more it can mutate and potential become even more infectious (such as the U.K variant).   

 

Now to concerns about the vaccine.  The mRNA vaccines have actually been in development for a long time, and before getting EUA they had to go through the usual phases of clinical trials to look at potential damaging effects and such.  I sit on an FDA advisory panel, and I can assure you that these clinical trials and the data obtained from them are taken extraordinarily seriously by the FDA.  The tens of thousands of patients enrolled in the trials for especially the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines showed no serious side effects and extremely good rates of success in generating an immune response against Covid.  And now since those vaccines have gone into widespread use there are millions of people that have been vaccinated, and the FDA and CDC follow up on adverse reactions.  The sum of that is the two mRNA vaccines used in the U.S. show remarkably high effectiveness rates in promoting an immune response and helping the vaccinated individual fight off Covid.  Serious side effects and deaths from Covid with these vaccines are virtually nil.  And more recent data provides evidence that the ability of vaccinated persons to harbor and spread the virus is also very low.  These findings, together with the efficiency in preventing illness and the marked decrease in infection and mortality rates since widespread vaccine distribution has started, allowed the CDC to make their recommendation last week.  And they have made the Pfizer vaccine a candidate for full FDA authorization, which I expect to see shortly.  Concerns about long term effects from the vaccine are understandable.  But if you look at the mRNA vaccines they are basically the mRNA, some salts, and some lipids (fats) to help keep the mRNA soluble.  There really is nothing there that should cause any long term effects; the mRNA is degraded by the cell after it is used to direct synthesis of the viral spike protein part.  

 

Regarding masks, flip flopping, and such, it is regrettable that what is a public health crisis turned into a political football.  There has not been flip flopping per se.  Rather, what we have seen is an evolution in how we deal with Covid as scientists gather more data on prevention and treatment and such.  Dr. Fauci is criticized time and again for flip flopping on masks, with the statement in March of last year about how the public should not wear masks being misinterpreted.  What he was referring to at that time was that he did not want the mask supply to be taken away from front line health care workers.  At that time we did not know exactly how the virus was transmitted, and what the effectiveness of various masks, distancing, and such would be.  Studies were done showing that masks of different types mitigated against the spread of droplets and aerosols, which were found to be the main modes of transmission.  Note I said mitigate and not prevent; anti-mask folks like to say the masks don't prevent anything as if it were a black and white, works or doesn't work issue.  And it is not.  As more and more studies are done we find that the risk of infection outdoors is much lower than indoors and recommendations then change when you're outside.  And so on.  This is how science works; it is not flip flopping, it is good science.  You continue to build information and as you do you change treatment strategies and recommendations.  Look at other medical conditions such as heart disease or cancer.  We don't treat people the same way today as we did even a year ago, because new data and findings come into focus and cause changes is strategies.  The same thing has happened with Covid over the past 14 months and will continue to do so.  

 

In your last sentence you indicate you want to see more results before deciding.  The results are in on millions of folks now, and they show that these vaccines are tremendously effective against Covid.  Almost historically effective.  And with few if any serious side effects.  So please do your part and get the vaccine.  I hope some of what I've written here helps guide you down that path.  

 

 

Can you explain to me why the FDA hasn't lifted the "experimental" classification of the vaccines?  What's the hold up of removing the "emergency use" authorization, and fully authorizing the vaccine?

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, T master said:

 

It is a great help thank you for the reply but here is another question .

 

I as recently as 3 yrs ago went to a Dr. because i had a sinus infection he recommended a FDA approved medication that had went through all the normal testing which took some yrs to get so they started prescribing said meds to the public now some 3 yrs later the exact med he prescribed me is known to cause cancer .

 

This is the type of unknown that i am trying to avoid one med fixing one thing & later causing another which is or could be even worse than what you originally went to the Dr. for that being the reason why i choose to wait .

 

I know medicine & treatments changes according to data as far as every virus or disease that we encounter but big pharma (IMHO) sometimes has the all mighty dollar at the fore front of their motivation, just like Monsanto & round up they don't care that they knew it caused none hodgkins lymphoma & still leave it on the market despite the evidence .

 

Sure there are law suits now to get reimbursed but my friend that died as a direct result of the use of it can not be brought back no matter how much money they give the family which could result in the same out come with this we just don't know enough as of yet .

 

Those are the concerns i have not about the short term that's great that it's doing well to help the curve but what do we know long term ? We don't yet so until i personally feel i know what i need to to feel safe enough to get it i'll wait . I have nothing against those that get it & the with co morbidity's should definitely get it i on the other hand am almost 60 & am on no meds 🙌 !!

 

As i said and praise god for it !! I have never had a flu shot except 1 time when i was a very young kid and the lord has blessed me with a very healthy life and a apparently strong immune system so besides vitamins to help what he has given me to fight off this virus i will depend on common sense, compassion & respect for others with distancing & use of masks . The lord and a lot of prayer ! 

 

But i appreciate your explanation and what you do to help those such as me understand these things !!!!! 

One thing to consider is the type of medication.  Many drugs on the market target something called receptors.  Receptors are on the cell surface and when they get activated stimulate different responses in different cells.  So when you get a complication it is because you get a different response in a cell other than the one you’re targeting.  
 

The Covid vaccines to me are much simpler.  The only active part is the RNA coding for the unique viral protein.  The mRNA is degraded after it codes for the protein, and of course the immune system makes antibodies against the protein.  You can of course never say never, but if you look at the history of vaccines in general serious side effects are extremely rare, and with the Covid mRNA vaccines they dimply have not seen it happen in the millions of vaccines given.

 

I too am a man of faith and would give you another thing to consider.  Perhaps God is working in this by providing researchers and physicians with the insight and skill necessary to so quickly develop such effective vaccines.

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

Can you explain to me why the FDA hasn't lifted the "experimental" classification of the vaccines?  What's the hold up of removing the "emergency use" authorization, and fully authorizing the vaccine?

Generally the FDA wants to get a sizeable number of patients receiving the medication, either in the form of clinical trials or general administration, so they have what they consider adequate safety and efficacy data for approval.  The two mRNA viruses as well as the J & J vaccine received emergency use authorization or EUA because of the nature of the pandemic.  They each had tens of thousands of patients that went through the phase trials before the EUA was granted.  I personally don’t think experimental was the right descriptor given the completed trials.

 

Now that so many have taken the Pfizer showing really impressive efficacy and essentially no serious side effects they have applied for full FDA approval which I suspect will be granted shortly.

 

 

[716er]

5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Generally the FDA wants to get a sizeable number of patients receiving the medication, either in the form of clinical trials or general administration, so they have what they consider adequate safety and efficacy data for approval.  The two mRNA viruses as well as the J & J vaccine received emergency use authorization or EUA because of the nature of the pandemic.  They each had tens of thousands of patients that went through the phase trials before the EUA was granted.  I personally don’t think experimental was the right descriptor given the completed trials.

 

Now that so many have taken the Pfizer showing really impressive efficacy and essentially no serious side effects they have applied for full FDA approval which I suspect will be granted shortly.

 

 

 

Another thing to note: the company producing the product (in this case the vaccines) applies for an Emergency Use Authorization - not the other way around. The FDA is not proactively reaching out to companies asking them to submit EUAs. 

 

 

If a company is granted an EUA, that does not give them the power to suspend their normal trial processes and automatically apply for approval.

Edited May 17, 2021 by 716er

[oldmanfan]

11 minutes ago, 716er said:

 

Another thing to note: the company producing the product (in this case the vaccines) applies for an Emergency Use Authorization - not the other way around. The FDA is not proactively reaching out to companies asking them to submit EUAs. 

 

 

If a company is granted an EUA, that does not give them the power to suspend their normal trial processes and automatically apply for approval.

Thanks for adding that info

[Pokebball]

37 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Generally the FDA wants to get a sizeable number of patients receiving the medication, either in the form of clinical trials or general administration, so they have what they consider adequate safety and efficacy data for approval.  The two mRNA viruses as well as the J & J vaccine received emergency use authorization or EUA because of the nature of the pandemic.  They each had tens of thousands of patients that went through the phase trials before the EUA was granted.  I personally don’t think experimental was the right descriptor given the completed trials.

 

Now that so many have taken the Pfizer showing really impressive efficacy and essentially no serious side effects they have applied for full FDA approval which I suspect will be granted shortly.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Regarding why I called it experimental, the pharmacist that poked me called it experimental.  I asked him why he called it that because it surprised me.  He said until it gets full authorization, that is technically what it is.  

 

I have believed for quite some time now that as soon as the FDA can get the full authorization on it, the better response to vaccination will occur.  Frankly, that hold up continues to surprise me, given the number of arms poked at this point in time.

[oldmanfan]

10 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

Thank you.

 

Regarding why I called it experimental, the pharmacist that poked me called it experimental.  I asked him why he called it that because it surprised me.  He said until it gets full authorization, that is technically what it is.  

 

I have believed for quite some time now that as soon as the FDA can get the full authorization on it, the better response to vaccination will occur.  Frankly, that hold up continues to surprise me, given the number of arms poked at this point in time.

It reflects the appropriate caution the FDA uses.

[Pokebball]

25 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

It reflects the appropriate caution the FDA uses.

Yeah, I get that.  Their appropriate caution is contrary to arguments regarding how safe the vaccine is though.

[Chef Jim]

1 hour ago, 716er said:

 

What medication was this?

 

Makeyourpenisbigatol

[Orlando Tim]

On 5/14/2021 at 3:20 PM, reddogblitz said:

 

I'm not convinced they didn't let it out on purpose.

The only evidence that is was accidental is that the lab has been cited before- I believe by WHO- for poor security and oversight. So I do believe it was accidental but if intentional we will never know.

[Orlando Tim]

8 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Let me try to explain, and I hope it will help you decide to get vaccinated.

 

When they say that Covid-19 was a novel virus, that is precisely what was meant.  With new viruses expressing new spike proteins in Covid-19's case, the body has not had a chance to build immunity.  And this virus was very unpredictable.  First, the long latency period of two weeks before symptoms occurred.  That greatly enhanced the spread of the virus, in that people could infect others without knowing they had it.  Add then that the clinical course of the infection was unpredictable, in that some remained unsymptomatic whereas the number of deaths now approaches 600,000, and you see the seriousness of this virus.

 

I don't think anyone would argue that boosting one's own immune system and such is a bad thing.  But in the face of a very infectious pathogen like Covid-19, the issue is what if doing so doesn't work?  Then you die, or you have serious long term morbidity if you are one that becomes seriously affected.  The reason vaccines are being advised, and even for children, comes down to basics about virology.  Viruses need host cells to replicate, specifically our cells.  The more people vaccinated such that they no longer become hosts (i.e. herd immunity) the less opportunity for the virus to hang around and it eventually becomes controlled or hopefully eradicated.  The reason children should also get vaccinated is that they too can get Covid (although the mortality rate is much lower it is still there as are longer term complications) and because they harbor the virus and act as hosts.  The longer we let the virus hang around, the more it can infect and the more it can mutate and potential become even more infectious (such as the U.K variant).   

 

Now to concerns about the vaccine.  The mRNA vaccines have actually been in development for a long time, and before getting EUA they had to go through the usual phases of clinical trials to look at potential damaging effects and such.  I sit on an FDA advisory panel, and I can assure you that these clinical trials and the data obtained from them are taken extraordinarily seriously by the FDA.  The tens of thousands of patients enrolled in the trials for especially the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines showed no serious side effects and extremely good rates of success in generating an immune response against Covid.  And now since those vaccines have gone into widespread use there are millions of people that have been vaccinated, and the FDA and CDC follow up on adverse reactions.  The sum of that is the two mRNA vaccines used in the U.S. show remarkably high effectiveness rates in promoting an immune response and helping the vaccinated individual fight off Covid.  Serious side effects and deaths from Covid with these vaccines are virtually nil.  And more recent data provides evidence that the ability of vaccinated persons to harbor and spread the virus is also very low.  These findings, together with the efficiency in preventing illness and the marked decrease in infection and mortality rates since widespread vaccine distribution has started, allowed the CDC to make their recommendation last week.  And they have made the Pfizer vaccine a candidate for full FDA authorization, which I expect to see shortly.  Concerns about long term effects from the vaccine are understandable.  But if you look at the mRNA vaccines they are basically the mRNA, some salts, and some lipids (fats) to help keep the mRNA soluble.  There really is nothing there that should cause any long term effects; the mRNA is degraded by the cell after it is used to direct synthesis of the viral spike protein part.  

 

Regarding masks, flip flopping, and such, it is regrettable that what is a public health crisis turned into a political football.  There has not been flip flopping per se.  Rather, what we have seen is an evolution in how we deal with Covid as scientists gather more data on prevention and treatment and such.  Dr. Fauci is criticized time and again for flip flopping on masks, with the statement in March of last year about how the public should not wear masks being misinterpreted.  What he was referring to at that time was that he did not want the mask supply to be taken away from front line health care workers.  At that time we did not know exactly how the virus was transmitted, and what the effectiveness of various masks, distancing, and such would be.  Studies were done showing that masks of different types mitigated against the spread of droplets and aerosols, which were found to be the main modes of transmission.  Note I said mitigate and not prevent; anti-mask folks like to say the masks don't prevent anything as if it were a black and white, works or doesn't work issue.  And it is not.  As more and more studies are done we find that the risk of infection outdoors is much lower than indoors and recommendations then change when you're outside.  And so on.  This is how science works; it is not flip flopping, it is good science.  You continue to build information and as you do you change treatment strategies and recommendations.  Look at other medical conditions such as heart disease or cancer.  We don't treat people the same way today as we did even a year ago, because new data and findings come into focus and cause changes is strategies.  The same thing has happened with Covid over the past 14 months and will continue to do so.  

 

In your last sentence you indicate you want to see more results before deciding.  The results are in on millions of folks now, and they show that these vaccines are tremendously effective against Covid.  Almost historically effective.  And with few if any serious side effects.  So please do your part and get the vaccine.  I hope some of what I've written here helps guide you down that path.  

 

 

Where there is a problem with messaging is that the CDC does not respond quickly to new info. It has been obvious since Thanksgiving at the latest that schools could be open safely with some simple precautions but they still are not because the CDC drags it's feet. We have known since last summer that being outside masks are not needed unless you are on top of each other, and maybe not even then. If you are that slow then your "expertise" is useless.  I will also state that giving kids a vaccine that does not have any proper long term studies for an illness that has a 99.999% recovery rate for healthy kids under 20 is questionable at best. I have had multiple students miss days from symptoms from the shots but none missed days from being symptomatic from COVID itself.

[reddogblitz]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

The only evidence that is was accidental is that the lab has been cited before- I believe by WHO- for poor security and oversight. So I do believe it was accidental but if intentional we will never know.

 

It is kind of coincidental that a bat transferred it to a human in a town next to the lab that studies this kind of stuff and has had accidents before.

 

I'm not saying they did, but I'm also not saying they didn't.

 

I know the WHO etc has looked into it, but once this thing is over all the countries in the world should demand answered from China and have some countries like us run their own investigations.

[plenzmd1]

hmm...

 

Quote

 mean…how does he do it? How is he so completely unconcerned with his unending contradictions? He delivers these declarative statements with utter certainty and dismissive condescension, and then completely ignores what he previously said when making his next declarative statement. How does he keep doing this?

The answer is, of course, that he knows that no one in the media will ever call him out for anything. 

Rand Paul will, sure, but Fauci can just lie when Paul calls him out, knowing the blue check pundits will have his back. No one on one of his incessant media tours would dare stand up to An Expert, an exalted man of The Science™ like him. So he just says whatever’s politically required of him at the moment without fear of consequence. Where is the new science that Fauci found? What is the explanation for it being just absolutely ridiculous to suggest vaccinated people shouldn’t be wearing masks less than two months ago, to “Put aside your mask. You don’t have to wear it,” like it’s just incredibly obvious that it’s always been the right answer. What’s the evidence? Where’s the science? Who knows? He certainly doesn’t.

 

https://ianmsc.substack.com/p/follow-the-new-science?r=kt9k9&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&utm_source=twitter

[T master]

17 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

One thing to consider is the type of medication.  Many drugs on the market target something called receptors.  Receptors are on the cell surface and when they get activated stimulate different responses in different cells.  So when you get a complication it is because you get a different response in a cell other than the one you’re targeting.  
 

The Covid vaccines to me are much simpler.  The only active part is the RNA coding for the unique viral protein.  The mRNA is degraded after it codes for the protein, and of course the immune system makes antibodies against the protein.  You can of course never say never, but if you look at the history of vaccines in general serious side effects are extremely rare, and with the Covid mRNA vaccines they dimply have not seen it happen in the millions of vaccines given.

 

I too am a man of faith and would give you another thing to consider.  Perhaps God is working in this by providing researchers and physicians with the insight and skill necessary to so quickly develop such effective vaccines.

 

I agree with your last paragraph and again thank you for your insight & knowledge it is much appreciated !! 

[T master]

18 hours ago, 716er said:

 

What medication was this?

 

I'm sorry but i misremembered it wasn't a sinus infection it was acid reflux or heart burn as us old folks call it & it was Zantac if i remember correctly . After buying it and finding out it was fairly expensive & me being cheap as i am i asked the Dr. "what about baking soda & water my father use to take that all the time for heart burn/ acid reflux" to which he replied .

 

"That is a homeopathic remedy which i don't recommend and i believe you should stay on the medicine i prescribed" and my thought immediately went to he could be getting a kick back and seeing as the baking soda & water worked and is much cheaper i went & stayed with .

 

Thankfully because a few years later i saw law suits about the very real possibility of it causing cancer and to this day glory to gad for it the only meds i take are forms of aspirin, Advil, or Tylenol oh and baking soda & water .

[716er]

Ranitidine

 

[Pokebball]

22 hours ago, 716er said:

 

Another thing to note: the company producing the product (in this case the vaccines) applies for an Emergency Use Authorization - not the other way around. The FDA is not proactively reaching out to companies asking them to submit EUAs. 

 

 

If a company is granted an EUA, that does not give them the power to suspend their normal trial processes and automatically apply for approval.

So are you saying Phizer hasn't applied for full authorization?  Or perhaps better to say they can't apply until their EUA runs its' time?

Edited May 18, 2021 by Pokebball

[716er]

38 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

So are you saying Phizer hasn't applied for full authorization?  Or perhaps better to say they can't apply until their EUA runs its' time?

 

They can apply whenever but typically companies will wait until they have Phase 1-3 data that supports an approval. 

 

From what I've read Pfizer plans to file sometime soon - https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/04/pfizer-pfe-earnings-q1-2021.html

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

On 5/16/2021 at 10:04 AM, oldmanfan said:

Not really.  The CDC is opening things up but still advising masks in crowded interior spaces and such.  Fauci is saying back to life as we knew it with no restrictions at all. I would say Fauci is by nature very cautious; that comes with being an infectious disease specialist.

He’s a numbnut, that comes with being a career bureaucrat. 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

On 5/16/2021 at 11:02 AM, plenzmd1 said:

First, the CDC itself said that IT IS black and white...you vaccinated, no need to mask or social distance. There is no ambivalence there, no suggestions..just black and white directions!

 

 

Second Fauci  suggested normal that would take place in years time..and that was his guidance. So the country at standstill for another year while the CDC said move forward FOUR , yes FOUR days later. Cautious might have been "i see us back to normal Memorial  Day..or really cautious July 4""...no he said a year later!!!!

 

Listen, i can tell you ,like many others, are  left in a conundrum here. You placed your blind faith in Fauci as infallible,you placed your blind faith that once Biden was elected,  the CDC would only follow the science, as you suspected the CDC was politicized under Trump...and now? well now both of those cannot be true based on the events of the last week...

 

You can argue all you want Fauci and the CDC are on the same page...it is ridiculous to say 4 days and 1 year are equivalent... and as i say just proves you are not willing to look at facts and utilize critical thinking to make a conclusion or criticism .

 

 

I’m not 100% convinced that omf isn’t actually Tony Fauci.  His level of commitment to the guy is impressive.

[Doc Brown]

On 5/17/2021 at 9:52 PM, reddogblitz said:

I know the WHO etc has looked into it, but once this thing is over all the countries in the world should demand answered from China and have some countries like us run their own investigations.

We won't get fooled again next time.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

6 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

We won't get fooled again next time.

I’m not so sure—  The sun shines?  People forget. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

Frankly I trust the CDC a lot more than I trust Fauci.  In fact I don't trust him at all.  What I do know of him, his comments, and his associations leads me to conclude he has a lot of conflicting interests when it comes to this outbreak.  One important thing to be cognizant of is he's more of an "administrator" than he is a "doctor".   

 

I've warmed up to the new CDC Director, Rochelle Walensky.  She appears to be a straight-shooter with a good grasp of the sciences, data, and statistics behind COVID.  Her answers and comments around vaccinated and the un-vaccinated along with the current comments on mask rules appear logical.

 

And the CDC has been very transparent and forthcoming on all the stats and numbers relevant to the virus which are available for anyone to review and reach their own conclusions.  I especially like this heat map of underlying conditions and risk.  It paints a very informative picture.

 

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#underlying-med-conditions

 

 

[B-Man]

[plenzmd1]

Lets see

 

no one needs masks

everyone needs a mask 

60-80k deaths 

herd immunity about 60% vax 
no70-80%
no 90%
 

I don’t really think we should think in terms of herd immunity 

 

mask after being vaxed  essential, not theatre

 

i wore a mask after being vaxed for show. 

 

This dude is a total joke. 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

35 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

Lets see

 

no one needs masks

everyone needs a mask 

60-80k deaths 

herd immunity about 60% vax 
no70-80%
no 90%
 

I don’t really think we should think in terms of herd immunity 

 

mask after being vaxed  essential, not theatre

 

i wore a mask after being vaxed for show. 

 

This dude is a total joke. 

There’s this gem, too, from July of 2020. 
 

His response to being outed and ignoring social distancing mandates was to lament the mischievousness of the photographer.  
 

The world was in free fall, the virus surging, people dying and Fauci chose to model behavior diametrically opposed to what he was preaching.  Then, when called on it, he blamed the photographer as the privilege tend to do. 

[B-Man]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dpberr]

23 hours ago, B-Man said:

I think Rand Paul presented a strong line of questioning in that last back and forth.   However, it'd be stronger if he had asked specific questions about Fauci's meetings with the WH in 2014 in and around the time the Obama Administration put the brakes on GOF research in the US.

 

There needs to be a peeling back of the onion, which starts way back in 2013 and 2014 when the Obama WH freaked out over the dangerous GOF research that was being conducted in labs in this country *and* funded directly by the US.  The pandemic was set in motion YEARS before it actually happened.  

 

Fauci and crew never stopped the GOF research.  They just laundered the money through groups like EcoAlliance and universities who then passed it on to willing scientists and countries to do it.  

 

 

[B-Man]