Explosion In Jerusalem

[oldmanfan]

Again, Jews and Arabs have hated each others for thousands of years.  Some Arabs in groups like Hamas want Jews exterminated, some Jews want Arabs exterminated.  How exactly is the U.S. government or any other country supposed to broker peace when you have that as the underlying issue?

[meazza]

8 hours ago, Justice said:

I don’t condone that kind of behavior but trust me when I tell you just the mere presence of the soldiers should’ve stopped the rock throwing. 

No the presence of soldiers angers the people praying at the mosque.  They are right to be angry but there also shouldn’t be people throwing rocks at the kotel.

 

3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Again, Jews and Arabs have hated each others for thousands of years.  Some Arabs in groups like Hamas want Jews exterminated, some Jews want Arabs exterminated.  How exactly is the U.S. government or any other country supposed to broker peace when you have that as the underlying issue?

Because you push the voices of those who want peace and coexistence.  
 

How else would 2 million Israeli arabs live in Israel?

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, meazza said:

No the presence of soldiers angers the people praying at the mosque.  They are right to be angry but there also shouldn’t be people throwing rocks at the kotel.

 

Because you push the voices of those who want peace and coexistence.  
 

How else would 2 million Israeli arabs live in Israel?

That is a noble thought and of course all would like to see Jews and Arabs live in peace.  But they haven't for thousands of years because they don't want to.  Some do, but the ones who don't rule the roost.    It just stuns me that so many think a U.S. President can somehow change that.  

[All_Pro_Bills]

7 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

That is a noble thought and of course all would like to see Jews and Arabs live in peace.  But they haven't for thousands of years because they don't want to.  Some do, but the ones who don't rule the roost.    It just stuns me that so many think a U.S. President can somehow change that.  

There's plenty the President can do. But none of them of either political party will ever do it. 

 

He could freeze arms sales and assistance to Israel and Saudi Arabia to convince them to use their influence and control to bring all the parties to the table to reach some kind of amiable "peace" plan for co-existence. He could exert his influence on the Israeli PM and government to stop ultra-right wing Orthodox Jewish "settlers" from confiscating and encroaching on traditional Arab neighborhoods.  

He could pull our troops out of Syria and Iraq.  He could reach a genuine agreement with Iran (an adversarial relationship since the 1950's US engineered coup) and respect their sovereignty in exchange for their adherence to standards of behavior consistent with the international community.  He could recommend Turkey be expelled from NATO and reprimand Erdogan for supporting ISIS terrorist and other extremists and he could support democratic forces within the country that face persecution and imprisonment.  He could engage the Lebanese government to begin the process of extracted Hezbollah from the country.  He could eliminate US assistance to the Saudi's in their fight against rebel forces in Yemen.    

 

I could go on for a lot longer.  But the fundamental problem is US Middle East strategy is to maintain chaos.  And then be mostly silent about it when hostilities break out like they are right now.

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

There's plenty the President can do. But none of them of either political party will ever do it. 

 

He could freeze arms sales and assistance to Israel and Saudi Arabia to convince them to use their influence and control to bring all the parties to the table to reach some kind of amiable "peace" plan for co-existence. He could exert his influence on the Israeli PM and government to stop ultra-right wing Orthodox Jewish "settlers" from confiscating and encroaching on traditional Arab neighborhoods.  

He could pull our troops out of Syria and Iraq.  He could reach a genuine agreement with Iran (an adversarial relationship since the 1950's US engineered coup) and respect their sovereignty in exchange for their adherence to standards of behavior consistent with the international community.  He could recommend Turkey be expelled from NATO and reprimand Erdogan for supporting ISIS terrorist and other extremists and he could support democratic forces within the country that face persecution and imprisonment.  He could engage the Lebanese government to begin the process of extracted Hezbollah from the country.  He could eliminate US assistance to the Saudi's in their fight against rebel forces in Yemen.    

 

I could go on for a lot longer.  But the fundamental problem is US Middle East strategy is to maintain chaos.  And then be mostly silent about it when hostilities break out like they are right now.

Some of these points are interesting and worth attempting, but I suspect would ultimately be fruitless.  To me when you have two groups that think the other has no right to exist, it doesn't matter what diplomatic methods are used.  

[Doc]

1 hour ago, meazza said:

Because you push the voices of those who want peace and coexistence.  
 

How else would 2 million Israeli arabs live in Israel?

 

That only works for a short period of time.

[SoCal Deek]

Or, you become energy independent and then let these people do whatever they’re going to do! Way, way too much blood and treasure has been spent on this ancient feud. 

Edited May 18, 2021 by SoCal Deek

[oldmanfan]

7 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Or, you become energy independent and then let these people do whatever they’re going to do! Way, way too much blood and treasure has been spent on this ancient feud. 

It is an intractable problem and has been so for thousands of years.

[Justice]

2 hours ago, Niagara Bill said:

So who historically been the oppressor here?

Both claim that title. There is always someone with money and making money fueling the fire, telling people what to think, not allowing people to stop hating.

Who in Ireland was the oppressor, protestants or catholics. Money fueled the flames.

It is always money and religion behind it. Few people who build and keep the fire burning.  

 

Speaking of money. $3.8b per year to a nuclear power from the US to Israel seems a bit insane, doesn’t it? 

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

Again, Jews and Arabs have hated each others for thousands of years.  Some Arabs in groups like Hamas want Jews exterminated, some Jews want Arabs exterminated.  How exactly is the U.S. government or any other country supposed to broker peace when you have that as the underlying issue?

See my post about $3.8b per year in foreign aide to Israel. You think we want to broker peace? Lol 

[oldmanfan]

9 minutes ago, Justice said:

Speaking of money. $3.8b per year to a nuclear power from the US to Israel seems a bit insane, doesn’t it? 

See my post about $3.8b per year in foreign aide to Israel. You think we want to broker peace? Lol 

The U.S. will always back Israel because it is the only democractic country in the region and because of the Holocaust.  Whether that is right or wrong is immaterial to the fact that JEws and Arabs hate each other and have done so for thousands of years.

[SCBills]

24 minutes ago, Justice said:

Speaking of money. $3.8b per year to a nuclear power from the US to Israel seems a bit insane, doesn’t it? 

See my post about $3.8b per year in foreign aide to Israel. You think we want to broker peace? Lol 

I know this isn’t the point your making, but we don’t just give out foreign aid to be nice to our allies.   It all comes with strings attached, and Israel, with their intelligence agency, provides us with a lot in return.  
 

We sprinkle $$$, protection and infrastructure around, while China does the same.   Not to be benevolent, but to buy cooperation. 
 

Edited May 18, 2021 by SCBills

[meazza]

38 minutes ago, Justice said:

Speaking of money. $3.8b per year to a nuclear power from the US to Israel seems a bit insane, doesn’t it? 

See my post about $3.8b per year in foreign aide to Israel. You think we want to broker peace? Lol 

Everyone always talks about the foreign aid from the US to Israel but the us also sends money to 1.5 b to Egypt, 600m to Pakistan, 1b to Iraq, 1b to Yemen. 
 

You should also look at how much the rest of the world sends to the West Bank and Gaza.  
 

It’s an irrelevant talking point.  Israel has already taken steps to live without American aid if it was to ever happen.

[All_Pro_Bills]

10 minutes ago, meazza said:

Everyone always talks about the foreign aid from the US to Israel but the us also sends money to 1.5 b to Egypt, 600m to Pakistan, 1b to Iraq, 1b to Yemen. 
 

You should also look at how much the rest of the world sends to the West Bank and Gaza.  
 

It’s an irrelevant talking point.  Israel has already taken steps to live without American aid if it was to ever happen.

So absent US arms sales and aid to Israel, they would be sourcing their weapons purchases from Russia, or China, or Switzerland, or home industries?  All kinds of hardware but most critical IDF fighter jets and support?  

Edited May 18, 2021 by All_Pro_Bills

[meazza]

11 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

So absent US arms sales and aid to Israel, they would be sourcing their weapons purchases from Russia, or China, or Switzerland, or home industries?  All kinds of hardware but most critical IDF fighter jets and support?  

I don’t know about their home grown abilities to build weapons but if hamas that has access to only smuggled goods is able to build rockets, pretty sure that Israel can manage.

 

They also appear to have a strong relationship with India and other countries now.

[SCBills]

12 minutes ago, meazza said:

I don’t know about their home grown abilities to build weapons but if hamas that has access to only smuggled goods is able to build rockets, pretty sure that Israel can manage.

 

They also appear to have a strong relationship with India and other countries now.

If Israel didn’t have access to the weaponry they do, it would be a bloodbath.   
 

The Iron Dome would allow more rockets through, leading to more civilian death, leading to a harsher Israeli response, and without precision weaponry - more Palestinian death.  

[SoCal Deek]

And over here on the other side of the planet we sit in our comfortable existence, while sending our borrowed money and weapons to people bent on killing each other. It’s exhausting! 

[meazza]

20 minutes ago, SCBills said:

If Israel didn’t have access to the weaponry they do, it would be a bloodbath.   
 

The Iron Dome would allow more rockets through, leading to more civilian death, leading to a harsher Israeli response, and without precision weaponry - more Palestinian death.  

I’m aware.  I was just commenting on if the USA decided to put pressure on Israel by limiting funds and arms sales, they’d probably still find away.

11 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

And over here on the other side of the planet we sit in our comfortable existence, while sending our borrowed money and weapons to people bent on killing each other. It’s exhausting! 

It’s not really borrowed if you never pay it back.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Not to be crass, but other than being mentioned in some old books, what makes that land there so desirable? Is it loaded with natural resources or super arable ? 
 

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Not to be crass, but other than being mentioned in some old books, what makes that land there so desirable? Is it loaded with natural resources or super arable ? 
 

 

I know you like to throw out some loosely constructed jabs at people of faith, but these old books you speak of are full of historical records. I’m not sure what you think they are. 

[meazza]

3 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Not to be crass, but other than being mentioned in some old books, what makes that land there so desirable? Is it loaded with natural resources or super arable ? 
 

 

 

The religious context is the location of the Temple Mount and the Al Asqa Mosque as well as the final resting place of Jesus.

 

In terms of land, surrounded by beaches and great weather.  I went once and would love to go back.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

25 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I know you like to throw out some loosely constructed jabs at people of faith, but these old books you speak of are full of historical records. I’m not sure what you think they are. 

I think this board is a great example of what they are.
 

People can believe what they want to believe and refuse to see no matter what is true, all religions are man made mechanisms of control and only one maximum by their own accord can be correct. 
 

when people want to kill each other over those mechanisms, some critical thinking is warranted. 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

I think this board is a great example of what they are.
 

People can believe what they want to believe and refuse to see no matter what is true, all religions are man made mechanisms of control and only one maximum by their own accord can be correct. 
 

when people want to kill each other over those mechanisms, some critical thinking is warranted. 

That may be true but these old books you refer to are also historical records. And, for what it’s worth a lot of people have died in struggles over land that have nothing to do with religion. Humans have been in conflict over land, resources, etc since the dawn of time...long before your propped up boogie man of religion. The same is true in the animal kingdom. Watch any nature show.

[meazza]

26 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

I think this board is a great example of what they are.
 

People can believe what they want to believe and refuse to see no matter what is true, all religions are man made mechanisms of control and only one maximum by their own accord can be correct. 
 

when people want to kill each other over those mechanisms, some critical thinking is warranted. 

 

Whatever it is, the beaches are nice and the food is good.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

That may be true but these old books you refer to are also historical records. And, for what it’s worth a lot of people have died in struggles over land that have nothing to do with religion. Humans have been in conflict over land, resources, etc since the dawn of time...long before your propped up boogie man of religion. The same is true in the animal kingdom. Watch any nature show.

Well so to paraphrase my original question that I was asking, besides religious boogie man, does anyone know what the value is of this land? 
 

And I’m not suggesting people go to war over religion as much as I’m suggesting people in power that want to go to war, use religion to recruit their soldiers. 

[snafu]

What's the value of anyone's homeland?

People live all over the globe, not just the scenic parts or the arable parts or the moderately temperate parts.  Also, people practice their respective religions all over the globe -- not just in their particular holy land. 

 

The answer to your question is: who cares, people want to live there, and when that happens, they'll fight to stay there. 

 

 

37 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Well so to paraphrase my original question that I was asking, besides religious boogie man, does anyone know what the value is of this land? 
 

And I’m not suggesting people go to war over religion as much as I’m suggesting people in power that want to go to war, use religion to recruit their soldiers. 

 

[sherpa]

1 hour ago, snafu said:

What's the value of anyone's homeland?

People live all over the globe, not just the scenic parts or the arable parts or the moderately temperate parts.  Also, people practice their respective religions all over the globe -- not just in their particular holy land. 

 

The answer to your question is: who cares, people want to live there, and when that happens, they'll fight to stay there. 

 

 

 

 

The land is of inestimable value.

It is simply impossible to value it without regard to Jewish history.

[meazza]

1 minute ago, sherpa said:

 

The land is of inestimable value.

It is simply impossible to value it without regard to Jewish history.

 

Jewish, Muslim and Christian.  

[sherpa]

Just now, meazza said:

 

Jewish, Muslim and Christian.  

And that doesn't include the Israelis.

 

[Pokebball]

4 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

I think this board is a great example of what they are.
 

People can believe what they want to believe and refuse to see no matter what is true, all religions are man made mechanisms of control and only one maximum by their own accord can be correct. 
 

when people want to kill each other over those mechanisms, some critical thinking is warranted. 

Is killing wrong or immoral?  Why?

[snafu]

5 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

The land is of inestimable value.

It is simply impossible to value it without regard to Jewish history.

 

Sure, but the Jews weren't the only inhabitants.  That land could be said about probably a dozen cultures and several religions.  And my point is that people practice their faith in all corners of the world.  Do Catholics in a Church in Seattle feel less pious than Catholics in Jerusalem, or Vatican City?  Would Catholics in Portugal fight for their homes regardless of whether they practice their faith in that location?

 

People live where they live, and most WANT to live where they live.  Faith and history are two factors in dozens, those two factors are not overweighted.

 

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

50 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

People live where they live, and most WANT to live where they live. 

 

 

 

That’s fallacy. World history is literally eons of migration and settling, resettling. Have you seen footage of our southern border? 

54 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

Is killing wrong or immoral?  Why?

I personally believe it’s wrong and immoral but at the same time as we are really all just animals, there are times when we face kill or be killed situations and have to make a choice.
 

Some people think killing is acceptable, some think it is never justifiable. Others believe what ever their handlers tell them to think. 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[snafu]

5 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

That’s fallacy. World history is literally eons of migration and settling, resettling. Have you seen footage of our southern border? 

 

You're right, but you're also forgetting about the eons of people staying put, too.  You make it out that migration and resettling are the rule, not the exception.  Also, how much of that migration is based upon people following their faith to the cradle of their religion?  In any event, you asked a question and I answered it.  Faith is a factor in why people have settled in Israel and the region, but it isn't the sole factor, and probably isn't the main factor.

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 minute ago, snafu said:

 

You're right, but you're also forgetting about the eons of people staying put, too.  You make it out that migration and resettling are the rule, not the exception.  Also, how much of that migration is based upon people following their faith to the cradle of their religion?  In any event, you asked a question and I answered it.  Faith is a factor in why people have settled in Israel and the region, but it isn't the sole factor, and probably isn't the main factor.

 

Fair. I just wonder why the Palestinians don’t just go take over some other parcel of desert, or go to Iran whose funneling all those weapons in anyway. Why accept living under Israeli oppression. Most of Israel is barren wasteland anyway. 

The Brits created this recent mess in the late ‘40s. I found a timeline that shows Jerusalem has changed hands 50 times in the past few thousand years. 
 

usually people settle somewhere because it has some societal benefit, access to fresh water, fertile land, strategic shipping lanes, access to ground transportation, lumber, sustainable for domesticating animals. 
 

what’s Israel got? 

[snafu]

4 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Fair. I just wonder why the Palestinians don’t just go take over some other parcel of desert, or go to Iran whose funneling all those weapons in anyway. Why accept living under Israeli oppression. Most of Israel is barren wasteland anyway. 

The Brits created this recent mess in the late ‘40s. I found a timeline that shows Jerusalem has changed hands 50 times in the past few thousand years. 
 

usually people settle somewhere because it has some societal benefit, access to fresh water, fertile land, strategic shipping lanes, access to ground transportation, lumber, sustainable for domesticating animals. 
 

what’s Israel got? 

 

Who knows?

I've often wondered why a whole lot of people cram themselves into living in substandard conditions in NYC when there's a whole lot of better options less than 100 miles away -- or anywhere else for that matter.  It ain't religion keeping them here, just like it ain't religion keeping the Palestinians in Gaza.

 

[Niagara Bill]

6 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Not to be crass, but other than being mentioned in some old books, what makes that land there so desirable? Is it loaded with natural resources or super arable ? 
 

 

Most people in both camps would say it is not worth dieing for. Their religious and political leaders create the hatred. 

The Lord never intended people to fight over a golden idol. You can love God, believe and honor without the Crystal Palace. Just ask Jim and Tammy Fae.

Some Flippin preacher says so and the sheep follow.

The leaders can never compromise as the Lord would have wanted because when peace prevails, they become unnecessary. Always wonder how a priest/preacher could pray fir the protection of an army battalion and then send them out to kill. What do you think happens in Gaza? Exactly the same.

 

[SoCal Deek]

8 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said:

Most people in both camps would say it is not worth dieing for. Their religious and political leaders create the hatred. 

The Lord never intended people to fight over a golden idol. You can love God, believe and honor without the Crystal Palace. Just ask Jim and Tammy Fae.

Some Flippin preacher says so and the sheep follow.

The leaders can never compromise as the Lord would have wanted because when peace prevails, they become unnecessary. Always wonder how a priest/preacher could pray fir the protection of an army battalion and then send them out to kill. What do you think happens in Gaza? Exactly the same.

 

Wow that's a lot to digest.  I think what you're trying to say is that no piece of land is worth killing for.  That's different from saying it's not worth dying for. 

[Pokebball]

4 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

I personally believe it’s wrong and immoral but at the same time as we are really all just animals, there are times when we face kill or be killed situations and have to make a choice.
 

Some people think killing is acceptable, some think it is never justifiable. Others believe what ever their handlers tell them to think. 

I ask because you inferred killing was wrong and I wondered why and under what moral authority.  Sounds like it's just your personal opinion?

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, Pokebball said:

I ask because you inferred killing was wrong and I wondered why and under what moral authority.  Sounds like it's just your personal opinion?

Yeah. Is that yours or did you feel differently until some religious leader told you otherwise? 

[Pokebball]

17 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Yeah. Is that yours or did you feel differently until some religious leader told you otherwise? 

My moral authority is God.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

12 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

My moral authority is God.

Oh, what did god tell you?

And I know some around here feel asking for Id is racist so how were you sure it was him?