McBeane: 25-23, 2 playoff trips, drafted/developed potential HOF QB, all during complete teardown and rebuild

[JaBu]

2 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

You should get an avatar of Yosemite Sam.  It is the cartoon I learned word when I was around 3.

 

I don't really get what you are saying. But in case my explanation caused confusion, I was born and raised in Buffalo/WNY and speak WNY English. Though I would really like to visit Yosemite National Park someday.  ⛰️

[Richard Noggin]

2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

I do disagree with one thing from the OP. This was absolutely a rebuild. But it wasn't a complete one. Keeping Tyrod, and Shady as well, showed that very clearly. I wanted them to rebuild completely. Time has vindicated their methods and made my objection irrelevant.

 

I'd like to pause on this point for a moment, and pose a question: could McBeane have immediately gone FULL/COMPLETE rebuild and STILL preached process to the remaining roster/fans? Basically, can a coach (and GM) who truly believe/live their own competitive mantras (iron sharpens iron, process, playoff/championship caliber, etc.) strip a team of ALL its valuable talent and maintain credibility and authenticity? 

 

Maybe you'd counter with: credibility and authenticity don't translate into wins, talent does. That's a fair point. Look at Jimmy Johnson's wholesale transformation of the Cowboys in the early 90s. Lots of people like to say that talent trumps culture, or that at least talent leads to success, which then leads to talk of "culture." 

 

I'd like to posit here that while we cannot argue against results, and that in fact we should not argue against results, it's important to note that McBeane were able to rebuild AND SIMULTANEOUSLY produce results. I actually think that the playoff appearance in year one, which was likely completely unexpected, bought McBeane credibility and grace that isn't usually afforded to a new NFL regime. And it resulted from their unwillingness to field an uncompetitive, stripped-down, completely tank-worthy roster in Year One. Keeping Taylor and McCoy (and others) was instrumental in sneaking into the playoffs that year.

 

THEN, given the credibility earned with that unexpected success, McBeane capitalized by cashing that check in 2018, tearing down the whole effing thing (which might not have been tenable without the grace period following the drought's miraculous end). They added high-end athletic talent in the draft at premium positions (QB & MLB), and sold us on the process of growth and improvement through competition. We bought it up, mostly, given the early returns.

 

And now, with Allen's ascension, well...give them both Carte Blanche for the next decade and see what happens! They've earned it. 

 

 

 

 

[Thurman#1]

49 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

I'd like to pause on this point for a moment, and pose a question: could McBeane have immediately gone FULL/COMPLETE rebuild and STILL preached process to the remaining roster/fans? Basically, can a coach (and GM) who truly believe/live their own competitive mantras (iron sharpens iron, process, playoff/championship caliber, etc.) strip a team of ALL its valuable talent and maintain credibility and authenticity? 

 

Maybe you'd counter with: credibility and authenticity don't translate into wins, talent does. That's a fair point. Look at Jimmy Johnson's wholesale transformation of the Cowboys in the early 90s. Lots of people like to say that talent trumps culture, or that at least talent leads to success, which then leads to talk of "culture." 

 

I'd like to posit here that while we cannot argue against results, and that in fact we should not argue against results, it's important to note that McBeane were able to rebuild AND SIMULTANEOUSLY produce results. I actually think that the playoff appearance in year one, which was likely completely unexpected, bought McBeane credibility and grace that isn't usually afforded to a new NFL regime. And it resulted from their unwillingness to field an uncompetitive, stripped-down, completely tank-worthy roster in Year One. Keeping Taylor and McCoy (and others) was instrumental in sneaking into the playoffs that year.

 

THEN, given the credibility earned with that unexpected success, McBeane capitalized by cashing that check in 2018, tearing down the whole effing thing (which might not have been tenable without the grace period following the drought's miraculous end). They added high-end athletic talent in the draft at premium positions (QB & MLB), and sold us on the process of growth and improvement through competition. We bought it up, mostly, given the early returns.

 

And now, with Allen's ascension, well...give them both Carte Blanche for the next decade and see what happens! They've earned it. 

 

 

 

You anticipate me perfectly. Or mostly perfectly, anyway. A complete rebuild doesn't have to strip a team of ALL of it's talent. Just all of it's older talent, or even young talent if it doesn't fit the new scheme. And if your team is in cap trouble, big contracts also become expendable. But that's not everybody. Jimmy Johnson didn't get rid of the young Jim Jeffcoat from the previous regime. Michael Irvin had been drafted in Landry's last year and they didn't get rid of him. Same with Nate Newton. Young talented guys you can keep. But older guys like Everson Walls, he wasn't finished but he didn't have a lot of time left, so he had to go. But if you can get a bunch of draft picks for a very talented guy who's going to be due a big contract soon, as Johnson did with Herschel Walker, that's gold.

 

But yeah, the Bills rebuilt and still managed to get more wins that expected. I don't disagree. But I also don't think that first team was actually any good. It was great to see Kyle Williams see the playoffs, but I knew we weren't going anywhere in the playoffs that year, and I bet you did too. Whereas this year we're playing at a level where nothing is absolutely out of reach.

 

I'd disagree that the early playoff berth got them more credibility than normal. More good will, yeah. But any first year coach is going to have credibility and a significant grace period, two to three years at the very least, short of utterly losing the locker room or proving a buffoon, ala Rex Ryan.

 

You say "tank-worthy," and without going into my usual excruciating detail, there's no tanking in the NFL. Only rebuilding. The two are different, and tanking doesn't exist in sports without fully guaranteed contracts, as it's against the coaches and players interests to play at anything less than their best at any time. This was a rebuild. And it wasn't a complete one. I think we agree on that. I think they would've been even better at this point if they'd gotten rid of Shady and Tyrod earlier, they'd have even higher-level talent than they have now. But I can't say anything against them at this point. Success vindicates unusual approaches.

 

Can they fully strip it down and be authentic? Yeah, of course. It's been done many times. McDermott was the defacto GM those first few months and it's the GM's job to look to the future, to care for the long-term interests of the team. If he had acted like a typical GM, nobody would have had trouble understanding it. But he didn't, he found installing a winning culture more important. But that was a choice, not something he had to do. Bill Walsh won a total of eight games his first two years. He didn't have any problems with credibility or authenticity.

 

I certainly don't disagree with you that they have earned the long and well-compensated stays here that they are pretty much sure to get at this point. Anyway, good post, Monsieur Noggin.

Edited October 10, 2020 by Thurman#1

[Chandler#81]

5 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Major awards?

 

[machine gun kelly]

Chandler, wasn’t that the Xmas gift in a Christmas Story from the dad.  All I can remember is the red rider 200 BB gun.  No way kid, you’ll shoot you’re eye out.  Classic.

[dollars 2 donuts]

11 hours ago, jwhit34 said:

29-23 in regular season counting this year.

29-25 including playoffs, but that is just to be a completionist.

 

one more thing, with a win on Sunday eeerrrrrr Tuesday, McD passes Wade to take sole possession of 4th place on the bills all time win list.

Edited October 10, 2020 by dollars 2 donuts

[machine gun kelly]

Well played Mr. Donuts, but I wish you d stop yelling all the time.  Give me a headache. 😂

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Chandler#81 said:

 

 

Fra-geee-lay

[Chandler#81]

1 hour ago, machine gun kelly said:

Chandler, wasn’t that the Xmas gift in a Christmas Story from the dad.  All I can remember is the red rider 200 BB gun.  No way kid, you’ll shoot you’re eye out.  Classic.

Correct. But it was the ‘Major Award!’

[shane nelson]

Time for an extension!!!!

 

[Scorp83]

11 hours ago, Doc said:

 

What in tarnation are you talking about?

Does it really matter?? Enjoy the joke 

[Don Otreply]

2 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

 

It must be Italian... 

[stevestojan]

HOF? 
 

Holy *****. 

love the enthusiasm but let’s get the kid a playoff win. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

17 hours ago, Doc said:

 

What in tarnation are you talking about?

in Yankee terms 

 

the Bills will be winning a lot more games than losing them 

13 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Major awards?

McD - COTY

 

Allen possible MVP 

 

Or at least (not an award) 

 

Most Improved Player 

[2ForMacAdoo]

21 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I believe it too. Particularly the first two years those teams outplayed their talent level significantly.

 

And 25-23 is insane for the first three years of a rebuild, insanely good. If you look at arguably the most successful rebuild of all time, where the third year was a Super Bowl victory, the first three years - including that Super Bowl season - were 21 - 27. Jimmy Johnson's Cowboys rebuild put up 19 wins the first three years. 

 

I do disagree with one thing from the OP. This was absolutely a rebuild. But it wasn't a complete one. Keeping Tyrod, and Shady as well, showed that very clearly. I wanted them to rebuild completely. Time has vindicated their methods and made my objection irrelevant.

On the diametrically opposite end of the spectrum are the Sabres who arguably tanked twice, first for the McEichel sweepstakes and then for Dahlin. Further proof that complete tanks can be very, very problematic.

[Dr.Sack]

Beane will ultimately be judged on the achievements of his QB Josh Allen. Looking at QBs he found a good one trending to great. Jackson & Mahomes past success may of had fueled the doubters but 2020 and beyond looks bright. 

[GreggTX]

Aren't we getting a little ahead of ourselves here? Josh isn't in the HOF just yet. He's had 4 really good games in 2020 and if he continues to play at this level (and cure his fumblitis) he probably will get the nod some day. I'll grant you that it's looking pretty good, but like many fans, you're counting your chickens before they hatch. I'm not saying you can never predict this. I'm pretty sure Brady is going to the HOF with a unanimous 1st ballot vote, but he's already made his case. Josh still has a little more work to do, but he's young enough to be Brady's son. There's plenty of time for that.

[GreggTX]

17 hours ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

in Yankee terms 

 

the Bills will be winning a lot more games than losing them 

McD - COTY

 

Allen possible MVP 

 

Or at least (not an award) 

 

Most Improved Player 

 

As far as "most improved" is concerned, Allen has a big lead, but Darryl Williams isn't far behind. I think we might give DW the 'Best Former Panther Signed By The Bills' award. That's a real thing, isn't it?

[eball]

On 10/11/2020 at 7:24 AM, GreggTX said:

Aren't we getting a little ahead of ourselves here? Josh isn't in the HOF just yet. He's had 4 really good games in 2020 and if he continues to play at this level (and cure his fumblitis) he probably will get the nod some day. I'll grant you that it's looking pretty good, but like many fans, you're counting your chickens before they hatch. I'm not saying you can never predict this. I'm pretty sure Brady is going to the HOF with a unanimous 1st ballot vote, but he's already made his case. Josh still has a little more work to do, but he's young enough to be Brady's son. There's plenty of time for that.

 

Yeah, but that’s what fans do.  I mean, Mahomes has played two full seasons and some are already saying he’s the best ever.  Anyone watch Chiefs-Raiders yesterday?  The same defense Allen carved up held KC in check and won a football game.  Mahomes did not play well.  God forbid what happens on this board when Josh inevitably has a bad outing (as all QBs do).

 

For now this is a whole lot of fun and we’re all enjoying the ride.

[BillsVet]

Sometimes I read posts on TBD and think that the SNL Superfans skit was just previewing where fan-hood was going. 

 

"We're not talking a repeat, a three-peat, or even a four-peat.  We're talking minimum eight-peat."