Stefon Diggs concerned about football starting back up

[Big Blitz]

If no season once they take the field in September of 2021 it will have been 20 months since most of them played in a game.

 

That's an eternity for an NFL player that isn't a QB, punter, or kicker.  Kids drafted in 2020 miss an entire season to develop.  The ramifications would be devastating.   

 

I trust the protocols will keep these guys safe.  

 

They're going to have a season.  

[SirAndrew]

19 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

These millionaires stroking their chins as they contemplate not showing up for work.

 

Imagine if every hospital worker, grocery store worker and the workers who hand them their drive-through fast feed had such a luxury of contemplation?

Exactly, just stay home if you want, but the attempts to drum up public support for their cause seem ridiculous. In MLB, Mike Trout expressed concerns about his pregnant wife, yet he’s at practice with his team. If he doesn’t feel safe, just leave practice, go home,  stay safe, and skip this year. There’s no need for the public contemplation of what you should do imo. I’m might just be taking it wrong, but it feels like some guys are playing the sympathy card. If you want me to feel sympathetic, tell me about a cops pregnant wife or something,  not a millionaire who could just stay home. 

9 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

If no season once they take the field in September of 2021 it will have been 20 months since most of them played in a game.

 

That's an eternity for an NFL player that isn't a QB, punter, or kicker.  Kids drafted in 2020 miss an entire season to develop.  The ramifications would be devastating.   

 

I trust the protocols will keep these guys safe.  

 

They're going to have a season.  

If they could get fast, accurate test results, there’s no reason not to play. However, I’m not sure how big of a hurdle that is at this point. The league hasn’t really said much about how that plan is going. 

[YoloinOhio]

 

 

[Mark80]

Jumping in late on this thread so not sure if it has been brought up or not.

 

Does anyone else find it interesting how some NFL players are worried about the affects of playing this season b/c of COVID and are saying it's not worth it.  However, they have no problem playing a sport which is well known for a ton of health issues after retirement like CTE, mobility issues, etc. for example?  Seems a bit contradictory to me.  These players are willing to sell their bodies every single season, but this year they are not.  It's interesting to me.

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, Big Blitz said:

If no season once they take the field in September of 2021 it will have been 20 months since most of them played in a game.

 

That's an eternity for an NFL player that isn't a QB, punter, or kicker.  Kids drafted in 2020 miss an entire season to develop.  The ramifications would be devastating.   

 

I trust the protocols will keep these guys safe.  

 

They're going to have a season.  

the ramifications wouldn’t be devastating. They’d be unfortunate.

1 minute ago, Mark80 said:

Jumping in late on this thread so not sure if it has been brought up or not.

 

Does anyone else find it interesting how some NFL players are worried about the affects of playing this season b/c of COVID and are saying it's not worth it.  However, they have no problem playing a sport which is well known for a ton of health issues after retirement like CTE, mobility issues, etc. for example?  Seems a bit contradictory to me.  These players are willing to sell their bodies every single season, but this year they are not.  It's interesting to me.

that I agree with. I’ve been wondering if more than health it’s lifestyle concerns. Or just that as humans we are bad at risk assessment.

[DrDawkinstein]

26 minutes ago, Mark80 said:

Jumping in late on this thread so not sure if it has been brought up or not.

 

Does anyone else find it interesting how some NFL players are worried about the affects of playing this season b/c of COVID and are saying it's not worth it.  However, they have no problem playing a sport which is well known for a ton of health issues after retirement like CTE, mobility issues, etc. for example?  Seems a bit contradictory to me.  These players are willing to sell their bodies every single season, but this year they are not.  It's interesting to me.

 

Those are all long term issues that will affect them in the future, and which young adults such as the 20-somethings in the NFL have a hard time seeing.

 

If you have asthma or diabetes or some other conditions, COVID could kill you this year. And you can bring it home to vulnerable family members.

 

Big difference.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, SirAndrew said:

I never said most of what you assume . I wear a mask, I take precautions, I believe it’s real and dangerous, and I understand that we don’t want the health care system to be overwhelmed. You seem overly sensitive. At no point did I say I don’t care about society. I’m making the point that shutdowns were to prevent the system from being overwhelmed. There were never any guarantees we would prevent the majority of the population from being exposed to the virus. That’s the point I was making, and didn’t mean for it to sound poorly. 

 

I will apologize if I have put words in your mouth.  I am puzzled then, to understand what you meant by "popular opinion everyone has been conditioned to believe".   I apologize if this is not what you meant, but phrases such as "really no point in hiding" and in this post "I can't sit in fear everyday" are commonly used by those who refuse to take reasonable epidemic disease precautions mandated by public health, but instead insist on their "constitutional rights" to stroll around maskless and stand elbow to elbow in indoor packed gatherings like bars etc.

 

The language of inevitability - "it shows that it's everywhere, and by the time it's over, most of us will probably get it" is commonly used to justify that stance - after all, if by the time it's over, most of us will probably get it, we're just "delaying the inevitable" right?

 

In a state like NYS with an overall statewide positive test rate <1%, it's not everywhere.  Even in countries like Spain and states like NY that had raging epidemics, the overall population seroprevalence is 3-4%, as high as 10-25% in some cities.

 

The words I would use at this point are "deeply frustrated"  "disgusted by some of my fellow Americans", and sometimes "angry" but if you prefer to call me "overly sensitive" fine.

 

Quote

We have no clue when an EFFECTIVE vaccine will be available.

 

Speak for yourself, OK?  I have a lot of clues on that point.  You can even wander over to the covid-19 threads and read 'em.

 

Quote

With all due respect, I’d love to hear how you think it can be contained at this point ? I genuinely would like to hear some ideas. Other than a complete shutdown of the country, I don’t see containment happening.

 

@SirAndrew, there's a pandemic playbook.   I'm quite upfront that I'm not, myself, an epidemiologist, I've just worked with 'em.  Clearly, countries and states that shut things down, then were cautious and employed the best tools we have at the moment (masks, testing, and contact tracing) seem to have it under control at the moment.

 

Other states have let it get out of control.  Whether they could stay open but rein it in with public buy-in to mask wearing, by leveling up their testing with strategies we haven't tried like pooling of surveillance samples, and more sophisticated contact tracing - I don't know.

 

My idea from the start has been, tap the best epidemiologist we can find, give him or her carte blanche to draft a team, support them with the best logistics in the world (the Defense Logistics Agency) and the best learnings from science, and Do This Thing.  Put them in charge.

 

That hasn't happened, and it's clearly not going to happen on a national level, but we don't get to wrap ourselves up in inevitability because we only need to look at other states and other countries to see that covid-19 disease can be pretty damned bad and still be stopped successfully.  And we can look at countries like Sweden that refused to shut down and say "and your economy can still be pretty damned bad while your death rate is 5-10x worse than your neighbors" - it's simply not clear that staying open while the hospitals fill up and the bodies stack up is the path to economic happiness.

 

I'm going to bow out at this point.  I've done my only-indirectly-and-peripherally-related-to-football rants here and said my piece as well as I can.  Peace out.

[DrDawkinstein]

1 hour ago, Big Blitz said:

If no season once they take the field in September of 2021 it will have been 20 months since most of them played in a game.

 

That's an eternity for an NFL player that isn't a QB, punter, or kicker.  Kids drafted in 2020 miss an entire season to develop.  The ramifications would be devastating.   

 

I trust the protocols will keep these guys safe.  

 

They're going to have a season.  

 

An extra year of rest, and some kids who have a tougher time moving up in the ranks is nothing compared to players/coaches/staff dying during the season.

 

When is the last season the NFL had an active player or coach die during the season? Typically a single death would be looked at as a tragedy. If you end up with even just 2 or 3 deaths (likely given all the obesity and age in coaching staffs), THAT would lead to devastating ramifications for the league.

[SirAndrew]

17 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I will apologize if I have put words in your mouth.  I am puzzled then, to understand what you meant by "popular opinion everyone has been conditioned to believe".   I apologize if this is not what you meant, but phrases such as "really no point in hiding" and in this post "I can't sit in fear everyday" are commonly used by those who refuse to take reasonable epidemic disease precautions mandated by public health, but instead insist on their "constitutional rights" to stroll around maskless and stand elbow to elbow in indoor packed gatherings like bars etc.

 

The language of inevitability - "it shows that it's everywhere, and by the time it's over, most of us will probably get it" is commonly used to justify that stance - after all, if by the time it's over, most of us will probably get it, we're just "delaying the inevitable" right?

 

In a state like NYS with an overall statewide positive test rate <1%, it's not everywhere.  Even in countries like Spain and states like NY that had raging epidemics, the overall population seroprevalence is 3-4%, as high as 10-25% in some cities.

 

The words I would use at this point are "deeply frustrated"  "disgusted by some of my fellow Americans", and sometimes "angry" but if you prefer to call me "overly sensitive" fine.

 

 

Speak for yourself, OK?  I have a lot of clues on that point.  You can even wander over to the covid-19 threads and read 'em.

 

 

@SirAndrew, there's a pandemic playbook.   I'm quite upfront that I'm not, myself, an epidemiologist, I've just worked with 'em.  Clearly, countries and states that shut things down, then were cautious and employed the best tools we have at the moment (masks, testing, and contact tracing) seem to have it under control at the moment.

 

Other states have let it get out of control.  Whether they could stay open but rein it in with public buy-in to mask wearing, by leveling up their testing with strategies we haven't tried like pooling of surveillance samples, and more sophisticated contact tracing - I don't know.

 

My idea from the start has been, tap the best epidemiologist we can find, give him or her carte blanche to draft a team, support them with the best logistics in the world (the Defense Logistics Agency) and the best learnings from science, and Do This Thing.  Put them in charge.

 

That hasn't happened, and it's clearly not going to happen on a national level, but we don't get to wrap ourselves up in inevitability because we only need to look at other states and other countries to see that covid-19 disease can be pretty damned bad and still be stopped successfully.  And we can look at countries like Sweden that refused to shut down and say "and your economy can still be pretty damned bad while your death rate is 5-10x worse than your neighbors" - it's simply not clear that staying open while the hospitals fill up and the bodies stack up is the path to economic happiness.

 

I'm going to bow out at this point.  I've done my only-indirectly-and-peripherally-related-to-football rants here and said my piece as well as I can.  Peace out.

This is probably better on the PPP forum, so it will be last response as well. I’ve seen a lot of what is going on up close and personal, and the stories you hear in the media are only the tip of the iceberg. NY state peaked, and reduced the tragedy in NYC by shutting down. Shutting down is the only way to slow the virus. It’s a huge misnomer to the think the virus has been eradicated in NY state like many people seem to believe. Many upstate counties have seen over 25 % of their total cases occur in the last two weeks. I’m seeing what leads me to believe large spread community transmission is happening up here. If we spike and see more cases of people who become ill, maybe another shutdown happens, who knows ?
 

Shutdowns are the only answer, but society can’t function with them for long periods of time. That was my only point. NY slowed the virus, but it’s far from gone. I just wanted to share what I’m seeing, and I don’t think we can take much comfort in any numbers, unless there is a vaccine that works. I’m seeing cases in Upstate everyday, which makes me feel like I’m living in an alternate reality to what everyone thinks about NY. NY state and NYC are two different entities. NY state isn’t done with this virus, and who knows what happens with the city once they reopen. Yes, our numbers are much better, that’s the truth, but people are talking like NY completely eliminated the virus. It’s out there enough to come back. NY state peaked, and is on the downslope now. Health care workers, pre op appointments, and sick people are the only ones being tested. Local counties near me with small populations are picking up decent numbers of positive asymptomatic people everyday. It tells me community transmission is still big around here. That’s all I was sharing as my belief as to why I feel like it’s everywhere, and tough to run from without a vaccine. 

Edited July 10, 2020 by SirAndrew

[Captain Hindsight]

47 minutes ago, Mark80 said:

Jumping in late on this thread so not sure if it has been brought up or not.

 

Does anyone else find it interesting how some NFL players are worried about the affects of playing this season b/c of COVID and are saying it's not worth it.  However, they have no problem playing a sport which is well known for a ton of health issues after retirement like CTE, mobility issues, etc. for example?  Seems a bit contradictory to me.  These players are willing to sell their bodies every single season, but this year they are not.  It's interesting to me.

How much is your life worth? Your mom's life? wife? Kids?

 

This is a situation where its not just about the player. If a guy gets covid, but is asymptomatic, visits his mother and she gets sick and dies, would that game check have been worth it?

 

I think thats the issue with playing this year, as opposed to the other issues you outlined

[SirAndrew]

3 minutes ago, Captain Hindsight said:

How much is your life worth? Your mom's life? wife? Kids?

 

This is a situation where its not just about the player. If a guy gets covid, but is asymptomatic, visits his mother and she gets sick and dies, would that game check have been worth it?

 

I think thats the issue with playing this year, as opposed to the other issues you outlined

Yeah,  but he doesn’t have to visit his mother. That’s his choice, and it’s also his choice not to play if he does want to visit his mother. No one is being forced to do anything. 

Edited July 10, 2020 by SirAndrew

[Captain Hindsight]

1 minute ago, SirAndrew said:

He, but he doesn’t have to visit his mother. That’s his choice. 

As is it is his choice to not play

[Big Blitz]

19 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

An extra year of rest, and some kids who have a tougher time moving up in the ranks is nothing compared to players/coaches/staff dying during the season.

 

When is the last season the NFL had an active player or coach die during the season? Typically a single death would be looked at as a tragedy. If you end up with even just 2 or 3 deaths (likely given all the obesity and age in coaching staffs), THAT would lead to devastating ramifications for the league.

 

 

Those coaches can get it from anywhere.  At practice or in games, take the right precautions if you're at risk.  Maybe its time to retire.  I dont what to tell you other than everyone is about to get this virus no matter how or when we re open.  You're being duped by thinking we can eliminate the virus if we all just wore masks.  South Korea, ultimate success story right?  Go look at what life is like in that "success story."  Why arent large events allowed?  They beat it, right?

 

No one understands this.  You've forgotten they told us that back in March.  We've delayed as long as we can - well beyond delayed we were told 15 days (unless you think a vaccine is coming, I don't) its time to move on.  

 

Time for all sports to start and let everyone have a choice to go, to play, or whatever.  

[SirAndrew]

4 minutes ago, Captain Hindsight said:

As is it is his choice to not play

It is, I just don’t want to see players turn this into some kind of deal about being victimized by the owners. 

[SirAndrew]

26 minutes ago, Captain Hindsight said:

How much is your life worth? Your mom's life? wife? Kids?

 

This is a situation where its not just about the player. If a guy gets covid, but is asymptomatic, visits his mother and she gets sick and dies, would that game check have been worth it?

 

I think thats the issue with playing this year, as opposed to the other issues you outlined

I understand your point, but even the smallest comments these days pose larger philosophical questions. Obviously, a human life is worth more than any paycheck. Many workers run the risk of infecting themselves, or a loved one everyday, and it can be overwhelming. If I knew with certainty something awful happens as a result of my working, I’d quit my job, and live on the street.
 

However, do we always go to the worst case scenario when making a decision ? If you did that with everything, you wouldn’t do much of anything. I’ve been misunderstood on this board as not taking this virus seriously, but that’s not the case whatsoever. I just don’t see how anyone can get consumed solely into worst case logic when making a decision. If a player opts out, I respect that as they are financially able to do so. Comparing them the average Joe is apples and oranges, but I just mean that death shouldn’t always be everyone’s first thought. I don’t feel invisible at all, and have no desire to find out how I react to this virus, but it all feels inevitable at this point, and I try to not be all doom and gloom about what might happen in the future. 

Edited July 10, 2020 by SirAndrew

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

None of those workers I mentioned are being routinely tested (or tested at all, in most cases)---nor are the people they come in contact with.

 

What is this point supposed to prove?  Testing only detects the disease - especially if people you are in prolonged close physical contact absent PPE with test positive, the attack rate is pretty high.  It's literally "locking the barn after the horse is gone".  If someone is concerned about their hoss (elite physical capabilities) being stolen, doesn't help them.

 

5 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

As I said, he certainly is entitled to his opinion.  He's had all spring to voice them.  Only now he seems troubled by the NFL going forward----and this is from a guy who has chosen to workout (with zero precautions) in Earth's current COVID epicenter.  So it's seems more than little bogus that he's truly concerned about this.

 

Just as it didn't register with you (or you're unwilling to acknowledge) that Diggs did not in fact tweet about “what players should be doing going forward” but only about his own concerns, I suppose it won't register with you that 1) even now, Florida is not, in fact, Earth's COVID epicenter 2) earlier this spring/summer when there were all these pics of Diggs working out, Florida was being hailed for its wisdom in reopening without rising cases

 

5 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Enough already.

 

Suggestion: Just don't read his tweets if they bother you so much that you have to project all kinds of stuff into them

[Hapless Bills Fan]

36 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

This is probably better on the PPP forum, so it will be last response as well. I’ve seen a lot of what is going on up close and personal, and the stories you hear in the media are only the tip of the iceberg. NY state peaked, and reduced the tragedy in NYC by shutting down. Shutting down is the only way to slow the virus. It’s a huge misnomer to the think the virus has been eradicated in NY state like many people seem to believe. Many upstate counties have seen over 25 % of their total cases occur in the last two weeks. I’m seeing what leads me to believe large spread community transmission is happening up here. If we spike and see more cases of people who become ill, maybe another shutdown happens, who knows ?
 

Shutdowns are the only answer, but society can’t function with them for long periods of time. That was my only point. NY slowed the virus, but it’s far from gone. I just wanted to share what I’m seeing, and I don’t think we can take much comfort in any numbers, unless there is a vaccine that works. I’m seeing cases in Upstate everyday, which makes me feel like I’m living in an alternate reality to what everyone thinks about NY. NY state and NYC are two different entities. NY state isn’t done with this virus, and who knows what happens with the city once they reopen. Yes, our numbers are much better, that’s the truth, but people are talking like NY completely eliminated the virus. It’s out there enough to come back. NY state peaked, and is on the downslope now. Health care workers, pre op appointments, and sick people are the only ones being tested. Local counties near me with small populations are picking up decent numbers of positive asymptomatic people everyday. It tells me community transmission is still big around here. That’s all I was sharing as my belief as to why I feel like it’s everywhere, and tough to run from without a vaccine. 

 

Misinformation and I don't get along.

 

I don't believe you're an epidemiologist.  So why are you so certain you know that?  (hint: it is not true, or at least it's true only in specific locations where the virus has gone above a prevalence where pooled testing and contact tracing are efficacious)

 

I'm quite aware that NYS did not eliminate the virus, but it's absolutely not true that HCW, sick people, and pre-op appointments are the only ones being tested.

Stand and deliver please - so that we understand what you mean by "decent numbers of positive asymptomatic people everyday" and "big", please identify the local counties near you that are picking up "decent numbers of positive asymptomatic people every day" thus showing "community transmission is still big around here".

 

Here's the list for your naming convenience:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/new-york/

 

 

[Captain Hindsight]

7 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

I understand your point, but even the smallest comments these days pose larger philosophical questions. Obviously, a human life is worth more than any paycheck. Many workers run the risk of infecting themselves, or a loved one everyday, and it can be overwhelming. If I knew with certainty something awful happens as a result of my working, I’d quit my job, and live on the street.
 

However, do we always go to the worst case scenario when making a decision ? If you did that with everything, you wouldn’t do much of anything. I’ve been misunderstood on this board as not taking this virus seriously, but that’s not the case whatsoever. I just don’t see how anyone can get consumed solely into worst case logic when making a decision. If a player opts out, I respect that as they are financially able to do so. Comparing them the average Joe is apples and oranges, but I just mean that death shouldn’t always be everyone’s first thought. I don’t feel invisible at all, and have no desire to find out how I react to this virus, but it all feels inevitable at this point, and I try to not be all doom and gloom about what might happen in the future. 

To each his own I guess. When I read that morgues are full in several states and we have to put bodies on trucks, i tend to be a little more cautious and not just resign myself to "oh well were gonna get it anyway" I firmly believe it doesn't have to be that way. I'm hardly doom and gloom either, but this isn't a broken leg were talking about here, death is a very real possibility for people that get infected. To not consider that when making decisions related to this is irresponsible IMO

25 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

It is, I just don’t want to see players turn this into some kind of deal about being victimized by the owners. 

Players are human and employees and no matter how well many of them are compensated, they still have a right to a reasonable level of safety. With a novel virus that is spreading rapidly and killing thousands of people, any person has a right to be concerned and should be free to make the best decision for themselves and their families.

 

If the Billionaire owners are going to not pay players their full agreed upon salaries, then the players absolutely should make a big stink about it. 

[Augie]

People often use the term “shut downs” and think of it like an on/off light switch.  I think it’s better to think of it in terms of a dimmer switch.  

 

Find the most dangerous environments like crowded bars and churches and determine solutions to reduce the damage done there. That may be closing for a while, or reducing occupancy, but it doesn’t mean we have to close the country and put everyone out of work.  It’s a matter of being smart and working in degrees depending upon what is necessary. 

 

 

.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Augie

[Mr. WEO]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

What is this point supposed to prove?  Testing only detects the disease - especially if people you are in prolonged close physical contact absent PPE with test positive, the attack rate is pretty high.  It's literally "locking the barn after the horse is gone".  If someone is concerned about their hoss (elite physical capabilities) being stolen, doesn't help them.

 

 

Just as it didn't register with you (or you're unwilling to acknowledge) that Diggs did not in fact tweet about “what players should be doing going forward” but only about his own concerns, I suppose it won't register with you that 1) even now, Florida is not, in fact, Earth's COVID epicenter 2) earlier this spring/summer when there were all these pics of Diggs working out, Florida was being hailed for its wisdom in reopening without rising cases

 

 

Suggestion: Just don't read his tweets if they bother you so much that you have to project all kinds of stuff into them

 

The obvious point is that these athletes will be proven negative before in contact with other proven negative players and staff.  None of that is afforded health care workers or supermarket workers, etc.  

 

Yes, testing detects the disease.  It isn't detected without testing, let alone frequent testing.

 

Florida has rapidly become the 3rd highest state in cases and deaths, behind only NYS, which has long ago cooled off and California, which has been steadily rising.

 

Florida and its governor have been steadily questioned for opening up early.  Now even more so for the predictable failure that this decision was.  Within 23 days of full reopening, daily cases went from about 850 to almost 2600.  2 weeks after that it was over 9000.

 

 

When did the fellas evacuate Florida for their workouts?  As you know, someone named "Joe Croom" was "dropping" video of it this past week.  Old stuff from his last posts a month ago?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

56 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

It is, I just don’t want to see players turn this into some kind of deal about being victimized by the owners. 

 

Fair

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

The obvious point is that these athletes will be proven negative before in contact with other proven negative players and staff.  None of that is afforded health care workers or supermarket workers, etc.  

 

No, that's not an "obvious point". 

1) You can not "prove" someone negative with a diagnostic test that is believed to have an in-practice sensitivity of 70-80%.

2) Again - HCW can wear N95 respirators, face shields, gowns and gloves for when they can't physically distance themselves.  Supermarket workers can likewise distance or barrier themselves, for the most part - and their contacts with the public are transient.  It's not the same thing as working all day in the same facility as a group of guys, then playing a peak-exertion physically violent physical contact game lasting for >1 hr.  And I know that you know this.

 

 

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

When did the fellas evacuate Florida for their workouts?  As you know, someone named "Joe Croom" was "dropping" video of it this past week.  Old stuff from his last posts a month ago?

 

Yes.  It's been stated repeatedly in the media, interviews etc they were there for less than 1 week.

[Mr. WEO]

56 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Fair

 

No, that's not an "obvious point". 

1) You can not "prove" someone negative with a diagnostic test that is believed to have an in-practice sensitivity of 70-80%.

2) Again - HCW can wear N95 respirators, face shields, gowns and gloves for when they can't physically distance themselves.  Supermarket workers can likewise distance or barrier themselves, for the most part - and their contacts with the public are transient.  It's not the same thing as working all day in the same facility as a group of guys, then playing a peak-exertion physically violent physical contact game lasting for >1 hr.  And I know that you know this.

 

 

 

Yes.  It's been stated repeatedly in the media, interviews etc they were there for less than 1 week.

 

 

You're being very disingenuous by insinuating that there is some genuine distrust of testing results because the sensitivity is what you claim.  But you do understand that a sensitivity of 80% is infinitely greater than zero, which is the sensitivity of no testing.  There is no testing of supermarket workers or their patrons prior to them entering the store.  There is no testing of HCW's before they got to work (or at all, if asymptomatic), nor their patients (or visitors, etc) unless symptomatic of for elective surgery.  So these players will have far more protection by the limitations of who they come in contact with (at work) and those persons current (as possible) testing status.

 

If you have gone to the grocery store at all you will see no social distancing.  Depending where you live, possibly no masking either (by shoppers).  There is no real protection for these workers.  And you certainly know that any amount of PPE has not prevented HCWs from the disease.  

 

Having 100 guys in a facility who test negative every day or two plus screening, plus limiting access to outsiders  (no matter what degree of contact they have once they get in the door) results in a FAR safer environment than the other workers I have mentioned exist in. Suggesting otherwise is not persuasive, to say the least.

[SirAndrew]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Misinformation and I don't get along.

 

I don't believe you're an epidemiologist.  So why are you so certain you know that?  (hint: it is not true, or at least it's true only in specific locations where the virus has gone above a prevalence where pooled testing and contact tracing are efficacious)

 

I'm quite aware that NYS did not eliminate the virus, but it's absolutely not true that HCW, sick people, and pre-op appointments are the only ones being tested.

Stand and deliver please - so that we understand what you mean by "decent numbers of positive asymptomatic people everyday" and "big", please identify the local counties near you that are picking up "decent numbers of positive asymptomatic people every day" thus showing "community transmission is still big around here".

 

Here's the list for your naming convenience:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/new-york/

 

 

I truly respect your opinions, and you come across as being very educated and informed. I apologize if I came across as thinking I know anything about this. I’m not a scientist, educator, or epidemiologist. I’m simply sharing personal anecdotes of what I’m seeing in the communities I work. I don’t have an appropriate link to the data I want, because it’s not out there on the web. Sure, I can find the numbers of positives for each county, but nothing shows when they occurred, such as using a line/bar graph with the months. Our local paper has the totals everyday. The numbers from back in early June have probably increased by about 1/4 in the last month, showing that our graph would be level, and not the downhill slope you really want. 
 

Health care workers in some of these rural areas are seeing more positives in the last month, than they saw in the first three months of this pandemic. It’s not raging out of control like it was in NYC, and our hospitalizations have gone down. Many of these positives are attributed to pre-op testing, and health care workers. I’m actually seeing this, and not just assuming this. When I see that, I can’t help but think this widespread in the community. I live in NY, but I don’t feel all warm and fuzzy about going out, even with a mask. We’ve seen a direct correlation between this increase and the opening of indoor dining and bars as well. I’m not denying NY state’s success, and the numbers aren’t a complete lie. NYC was a disaster that slowed greatly.
 

The shutdown did its job of not overwhelming hospitals. We are not at risk for that up here at the time, so that’s a job well done. I’m just making the point that it’s reduced to a slow burn. If we don’t have a vaccine within the next few years, there’s going to be a ton of people who get this virus, even in NYS. It didn’t go anywhere, we just slowed it down. Eventually, all these states that are a disaster will slow the spread, but it’s still going to spread everywhere slowly until we have a vaccine. You understand that, so I’m not attempting to sound condescending, I just mean the sole purpose of this is to avoid overwhelming the system. The majority of the population will get this virus at some point if we can’t create a vaccine ASAP (I hope we can soon). As far as your suggestion that people other than HCW, pre-op testing, and sick people are being tested regularly, I’m curious to know who else you think is regularly tested ?

[SirAndrew]

16 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

You're being very disingenuous by insinuating that there is some genuine distrust of testing results because the sensitivity is what you claim.  But you do understand that a sensitivity of 80% is infinitely greater than zero, which is the sensitivity of no testing.  There is no testing of supermarket workers or their patrons prior to them entering the store.  There is no testing of HCW's before they got to work (or at all, if asymptomatic), nor their patients (or visitors, etc) unless symptomatic of for elective surgery.  So these players will have far more protection by the limitations of who they come in contact with (at work) and those persons current (as possible) testing status.

 

If you have gone to the grocery store at all you will see no social distancing.  Depending where you live, possibly no masking either (by shoppers).  There is no real protection for these workers.  And you certainly know that any amount of PPE has not prevented HCWs from the disease.  

 

Having 100 guys in a facility who test negative every day or two plus screening, plus limiting access to outsiders  (no matter what degree of contact they have once they get in the door) results in a FAR safer environment than the other workers I have mentioned exist in. Suggesting otherwise is not persuasive, to say the least.

I agree, if the testing thing works out, I could name a hundred other careers where I’d feel more at risk. Even in NY, the shining example of how to deal with the virus, only long term care workers are tested. Most other health care workers aren’t tested on a regular basis. The truth is, some HCW’s don’t even have the proper PPE yet, reusing masks for days, no N95’s, etc.  I also think of all the construction workers and roofers I see packed together everyday, somewhat wearing their masks. NFL players rank somewhere mid level of the workers I’m most concerned about. 

[Mr. WEO]

11 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

I agree, if the testing thing works out, I could name a hundred other careers where I’d feel more at risk. Even in NY, the shining example of how to deal with the virus, only long term care workers are tested. Most other health care workers aren’t tested on a regular basis. The truth is, some HCW’s don’t even have the proper PPE yet, reusing masks for days, no N95’s, etc.  I also think of all the construction workers and roofers I see packed together everyday, somewhat wearing their masks. NFL players rank somewhere mid level of the workers I’m most concerned about. 

 

I'm in health care.   I'm regularly exposed, never tested.  No N95 outside of COVID units.  Rewear caps, etc.  

 

All these pro sports players will be working in an environment of extreme health and safety privilege.  No one should be confused about this.

[Punching Bag]

2 hours ago, Captain Hindsight said:

As is it is his choice to not play

 

What about players already paid to play with huge signing bonuses?

I have not heard 1 player say "I do not think it is safe to play.  I will give back portion of signing bonus for this year and will pay premium for benefits out of my own pocket."

 

The players are talking about risks, uncertainties, worries, etc but none are talking about absorbing costs themselves in season when teams will be getting less money.  If they were holding out they would be required to pay it back.  Teams are counting on players to play and if someone is now willing to play they should tell team now so they can adjust plans not wait to season to start hoping it to be cancelled and hoping laywers will somehow be able to get NFL to pay them most if not all they would have gotten if they played.

[KD in CA]

Who isn't?

[Mr. WEO]

8 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

Who isn't?

 

 

I'm concerned it will not start!

[Punching Bag]

1 hour ago, KD in CA said:

Who isn't?

 

If it is about expecting someone else to pay for them not taking risk my wife isn't.  She normally manages schools in summer and get paid additional money because it is not in her contract.  She has done it in last 10 years. She told them she is not willing to work in summer for she found the summer plans adjusted for COVID-19 as unacceptable and took summer off.  They had offered her 50% bonus.

[Punching Bag]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

If you have gone to the grocery store at all you will see no social distancing.  Depending where you live, possibly no masking either (by shoppers).  There is no real protection for these workers.  And you certainly know that any amount of PPE has not prevented HCWs from the disease.  

 

Maybe not where you live, perhaps because your life has negative value, but all supermarkets here except a few ethnic ones have requirements that all shoppers where masks, all cashiers have plexiglass shields in front of them, when workers are restocking customers are prevented from entering isle, shopping carts are cleaned before customers use.  All have markings to keep distance between customers in lines and most have one directional markings on isles. Majority are restricting number of customers in store.  In one store I was in there was shopper without mask and shopper was addressed by manager and told that shopper could not shop without a mask, bandanna or other gear. 

[JoPoy88]

lotta overreaction in this one. Diggs is fine. Isn't it okay if he expresses even tiniest bit of apprehension given what's going on? Seriously some of you have been looking for reasons to hate this guy since the day they traded for him. get over it.

[Dr. K]

My respect for Diggs's intelligence just went up. He's no fool. 

[Mr. WEO]

21 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

Maybe not where you live, perhaps because your life has negative value, but all supermarkets here except a few ethnic ones have requirements that all shoppers where masks, all cashiers have plexiglass shields in front of them, when workers are restocking customers are prevented from entering isle, shopping carts are cleaned before customers use.  All have markings to keep distance between customers in lines and most have one directional markings on isles. Majority are restricting number of customers in store.  In one store I was in there was shopper without mask and shopper was addressed by manager and told that shopper could not shop without a mask, bandanna or other gear. 

 

I said "depending on where you live" (I live in NY, where I and my fellow NY'ers are assured of a life of "positive value").  Many states do not have such requirements still.

 

Even so, I can walk into Wegmans as we speak and see no distancing, despite all the snazzy floor markings.  People are bumping into each other in the aisles at peak after work hours.

 

No doubt you avoid the "ethnic ones", but I'm comfortable in assuming you would rather make millions playing a game in a scenario where there is the most rigid screening and testing encircling you....than put on your dirty old mask and bag groceries.

[BillsPride12]

Not looking good 

[Mr. WEO]

23 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

lotta overreaction in this one. Diggs is fine. Isn't it okay if he expresses even tiniest bit of apprehension given what's going on? Seriously some of you have been looking for reasons to hate this guy since the day they traded for him. get over it.

 

His timing is strange.  I mean, if when the NFL announced on March 31 that the season would b played...while daily cases in NYS were exponentially increasing to their 7 day average PEAK of almost 10,000, Diggs said: "uh, hold on.  You're going to go forward while this is going on...like this??"----I would say his concern is prescient.

 

But he didn't.  In fact, he has by all accounts been diligently preparing himself for a season in the NFL as scheduled.   In July, he wonders if they should be playing NFL football, even as other leagues are all also going forward with published guidelines.  In March, he didn't seem concerned about any safety precautions---they weren't even known.    Now that the lengths that the league plans to go to to make it as safe as possible, he's not sure it should happen.

 

Or, if he had said at any time:  "I'm not playing", as have other pro sports stars....well, props would be his.   In fact, the NFL and NFLPA have agreed to an opt out already.

[SirAndrew]

6 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

I said "depending on where you live" (I live in NY, where I and my fellow NY'ers are assured of a life of "positive value").  Many states do not have such requirements still.

 

Even so, I can walk into Wegmans as we speak and see no distancing, despite all the snazzy floor markings.  People are bumping into each other in the aisles at peak after work hours.

 

No doubt you avoid the "ethnic ones", but I'm comfortable in assuming you would rather make millions playing a game in a scenario where there is the most rigid screening and testing encircling you....than put on your dirty old mask and bag groceries.

I have seen much of the same in NY. We’ve done some things right, but that doesn’t mean we are some utopia where everyone is wearing a mask, and maintaining social distances at all times. Yes, we’re doing better than states where masks weren’t even suggested, but behaving according to protocol is far from universal, even in NY. Masks are “required” in NY, but there’s only so much that can be done. So, you’re going to fight with a random customer over not wearing a mask for $12.00/hr, I don’t think so. I know someone who got spit on calling out a person for not wearing a mask. Conditions are far from ideal, as this pandemic as made people crazier than usual. I’d prefer to be on an NFL field than in a grocery store. 

 

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

I'm in health care.   I'm regularly exposed, never tested.  No N95 outside of COVID units.  Rewear caps, etc.  

 

All these pro sports players will be working in an environment of extreme health and safety privilege.  No one should be confused about this.

Thanks for the great point, my experiences have been much the same in the field. In fact I’d go out on a limb, and say I’d feel safer playing an NFL game than working in health care, or being a patient. There’s just a lot going on that blows my mind, and the safety of NFL players ranks low on my list of major concerns. I’m sure they won’t be reusing contaminated equipment for a week, putting both themselves and others at risk. 

[Augie]

58 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

lotta overreaction in this one. Diggs is fine. Isn't it okay if he expresses even tiniest bit of apprehension given what's going on? Seriously some of you have been looking for reasons to hate this guy since the day they traded for him. get over it.

 

Anyone who does NOT agree with him is the person I worry about. He stated the obvious. What’s the big deal? 

[Punching Bag]

1 hour ago, BillsPride12 said:

Not looking good 

 

Evidently the NFLPA determined that sending a school of laywers and suing COVID-19 virus would work.

laysuits is the NFLPA's best weapon.

[HappyDays]

Unfortunately a few states may have ruined it for the rest of us. If we had spent three weeks in a national lockdown early on the pandemic would be all but done by now. Our next chance was to have a national mask policy. Now that ship has sailed too. Several states are now getting close to ICU capacity and the death rate in those states has started going up again. A couple months ago I was optimistic that an NFL season would somehow happen. I underestimated how little this country trusts scientists. At this point I don't see how a season can happen until there is a vaccine. If they can somehow work a mask into the helmet that's the only way.

Edited July 11, 2020 by HappyDays

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, Augie said:

People often use the term “shut downs” and think of it like an on/off light switch.  I think it’s better to think of it in terms of a dimmer switch.  

 

Find the most dangerous environments like crowded bars and churches and determine solutions to reduce the damage done there. That may be closing for a while, or reducing occupancy, but it doesn’t mean we have to close the country and put everyone out of work.  It’s a matter of being smart and working in degrees depending upon what is necessary. 

 

Right on!  Four months ago we were just starting to learn about this virus.  We had negligible testing capacity.   We had low supplies of PPE.  We had insufficient contact tracing.  Shutting everything down is a crude “Hail Mary” of a public health step, but it was pretty much all we had.  As well, public health officials in different countries had to process a lot of information in a hurry, synthesize it with how similar viruses behave, and take their best shot.  Some early information was incorrect - for example, the WHO-China joint report stated that very few infections were asymptomatic and I think that influenced a lot of public health thinking, even in the face of mounting evidence it wasn’t true.  

 

We understand a lot more now.  We have testing.  We have better contact tracing, albeit not nearly as powerful as it could be.  That means there’s a set of epidemiology tools that can be used.  It’s just so mistaken to cast it as “the only way to control this is to shut everything down”.

 

Unfortunately because of misinformation and lack of a clear, coherent message, a lot of people are unwilling to abide by some of the simple steps that can be taken.  That’s not a failure of epidemiology or science per se.