Buffalo PD assault older gentleman, leave him to bleed

[Bad Things]

I'd like to just pause and thank SDS and the mods for keeping this thread on the "Off The Wall" board, without throwing it into the cesspit that is know as the PPP board.

 

It's important that we can all have a civil conversation about this.

 

Let's go Buffalo!

 

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Bad Things

[Bill from NYC]

15 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

And to Bill, I don't think he particularly suffers from mental issues, unless you class any retired 75 yr old computer technology worker who devotes considerable time and energy to political activism as suffering from mental issues ?‍♂️

 

We are both entitled to our opinions. When he recovers completely, perhaps you can have him over for dinner. Will you give him the option to wear his helmet at the table?

[ALF]

8 hours ago, Bangarang said:

 

No, I can’t substantiate it.

 

 

I care whose helmet it was because I’ve seen a lot of people concluding that he was simply being a good samaritan and returning it back to police. 
 

Ive seen numerous people refer to this as a violent shoving. I don’t see that. 
 

They probably didn’t have to push him. They could have just grabbed him and arrested him right there if he refused to follow commands. The bottom line is cops have a right to protect their personal space and if you get too close to them while they’re telling you to get back then it’s possible and likely that things escalate.

 

That's how to handle a elderly person , a young person the shove would be ok. I don't think the 2 officers should be fired just more training. I left Buffalo after HS and I always pray for my place of birth, I grew up on the near east side  

[GregPersons]

The shove is one thing. It's not justified, but I'm less horrified by the shove, as horrific as it is.

 

That nobody helps him when he's clearly unwell. Bleeding from his ear. You see them have the human instinct to help, and they're told to keep moving.

 

Today, a bunch of Buffalo cops went on strike in protest of the cops being suspended (not fired!). They defended their actions saying "they were just following orders." Does that defense ring a bell to anyone? Yes, it is indeed the Nazi defense at Nuremberg.

 

That's what's happening in America right now. 

[4_kidd_4]

Respect to Niagara Falls, peaceful protesters organized and marched WITH the mayor & chief of police last night, and were met at the police station by “at rest” officers without riot gear or carrying riot weaponry. There was no violence.

[Bangarang]

I don’t see anyone protesting or outraged over the 3 black people who ran over 2 troopers and a BPD Officer the other day. No big deal since they were white cops who were attacked. We also don’t care that the scumbags had a stolen gun in their possession. Where is all the celebrity outrage over that? 

[Johnny Hammersticks]

5 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

We are both entitled to our opinions. When he recovers completely, perhaps you can have him over for dinner. Will you give him the option to wear his helmet at the table?

 

Yes, and I’d even let him have the big piece of chicken.

[cle23]

3 hours ago, ALF said:

 

That's how to handle a elderly person , a young person the shove would be ok. I don't think the 2 officers should be fired just more training. I left Buffalo after HS and I always pray for my place of birth, I grew up on the near east side  

 

Not fired? If I do that, I'm in prison.

[wagon127]

1 hour ago, Bangarang said:

I don’t see anyone protesting or outraged over the 3 black people who ran over 2 troopers and a BPD Officer the other day. No big deal since they were white cops who were attacked. We also don’t care that the scumbags had a stolen gun in their possession. Where is all the celebrity outrage over that? 

Because they were arrested and charged. And were exempt from bail reform. Thats why people arent outraged. The protests are about officers being violent or murdering people, and never being held accountable.

 

That being said.

 

This old man was causing trouble all night long, saying the protests were "fun." And protesting the curfew. He was given plenty of verbal requests from officers prior to the 30 second video we all saw to go home, and he refused. Im only upset about the false report the police filed.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

We are both entitled to our opinions. When he recovers completely, perhaps you can have him over for dinner. Will you give him the option to wear his helmet at the table?

 

I know you're being sarcastic here as you are well aware I do not reside anywhere near Buffalo NY.  But frankly, I'm disappointed in this as a rejoinder from you.

 

First off, I'm not entertaining anyone to dinner right now, including relatives and close friends.  Second off, most of us have a large acquaintance we do not perceive as mentally ill, but lack interest in entertaining - the standard "whether Hapless wants to invite the guy to dinner" is useless to pressure- test my perception of his mental health (I'm assuming that's your point, and it's not just snark).

 

I hope he recovers completely.  It took me a year to recover as far as I have from a TBI and I have persistent issues I must manage.

 

Historically, categorizing people with whom the police have violent interactions has been used as a way to diminish questioning the scope or necessity of the police interactions.  If a guy has previous convictions, or may have just committed a strongarm robbery, or is crazy, then automatically he doesn't belong to the group of Total Innocents who deserve public sympathy for what appears to be unnecessary or excessive force on the part of the police, AmIRite?

 

I'm tired of hearing that brought up to justify police actions.  Police get  wide legal latitude and too often that's being abused while other officers keep silent or justify.  Police are supposed to uphold the law and due process, not issue summary judgement and sentence a guy to death or disability by violent treatment.

 

If he were mentally ill, how would that justify two police officers shoving him, one with a baton one with a straight arm he stepped into, with enough force that he staggered back and fell, striking his head?  Someone else said it, if he's breaking the law arrest him, but arrests (or clearances) should utilize minimum necessary force.  Three officers in the vicinity need to shove an old guy around to neutralize him?  Baloney.

Luther Hall.  St Louis.  Google.

[Bangarang]

17 minutes ago, wagon127 said:

Because they were arrested and charged. And were exempt from bail reform. Thats why people arent outraged. The protests are about officers being violent or murdering people, and never being held accountable.

The 4 Minneapolis cops have been arrested and  charged. Why are there still protests and riots? Is this about race or police? When is justice served and when will it be okay to stop the protests?

 

And what does it mean to be exempt from bail reform? That doesn’t make any sense.

 

Quote

That being said.

 

This old man was causing trouble all night long, saying the protests were "fun." And protesting the curfew. He was given plenty of verbal requests from officers prior to the 30 second video we all saw to go home, and he refused. Im only upset about the false report the police filed.

 

Fair enough.

Edited June 6, 2020 by Bangarang

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Bangarang said:

I don’t see anyone protesting or outraged over the 3 black people who ran over 2 troopers and a BPD Officer the other day. No big deal since they were white cops who were attacked. We also don’t care that the scumbags had a stolen gun in their possession. Where is all the celebrity outrage over that? 

 

"Whataboutism" at its finest, Bangarang.  This is a thread to discuss the Buffalo PD actions towards an elderly gentleman, resulting in him being hospitalized with a TBI in serious condition.  We can discuss it and have opinions, which need not be altered or dismissed by the fact other egregious incidents are taking place.  It's not a competition, y'know?

 

Would you also like outrage on behalf of the two Louisiana troopers injured in the course of their duties by a brother officer driving a police cruiser?  One of them is in serious condition.  https://www.wwltv.com/article/news/local/northshore/hammond-police-vehicle-hits-two-state-troopers-after-car-chase-lsp-says/289-20dd5184-3fee-43cc-9cf3-fce49b8cd288

[Hapless Bills Fan]

15 hours ago, Taro T said:

 

Thank you for the links.  Agreed, that doesn't warrant having his head split open.  But it does cause one to wonder why he thought there was enough of a possibility of a confrontation to bring a helmet but not enough that he'd actually put it on.  Could have saved at least 3 people a lot of pain &/or anguish.

 

Glad he seems to be recovering well.

 

We all lack information about the helmet.  Superficially, it appears to resemble the police helmets being worn, but a lot of helmets are superficially similar in appearance.  It's clear that he's not a "good Samaritan" innocently returning a helmet to police - he was videoed with it earlier and had opportunity to return it.

 

Maybe it's his helmet and he didn't bring it in anticipation of violent protest.  Maybe he came to the area on a motor scooter or an ebike and that's the helmet he wears while riding.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

30 minutes ago, wagon127 said:

This old man was causing trouble all night long, saying the protests were "fun." And protesting the curfew. He was given plenty of verbal requests from officers prior to the 30 second video we all saw to go home, and he refused. Im only upset about the false report the police filed.

 

So as has been said elsewhere: why does disobeying a lawful police order (and whatever I think about the whole curfew/disperse order thing, they were lawful) justify excessive force?  If he breaks the law and refuses to obey a police order, why can't three riot-equipped officers arrest him without serious injury?

And perhaps I misunderstand you, are you saying that being a jerk (saying the protests are "fun") earlier in the day somehow justifies forceful treatment?  That's what I'm getting from what you wrote, but perhaps I misunderstand.

 

[Bangarang]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

"Whataboutism" at its finest, Bangarang.  This is a thread to discuss the Buffalo PD actions towards an elderly gentleman, resulting in him being hospitalized with a TBI in serious condition.  We can discuss it and have opinions, which need not be altered or dismissed by the fact other egregious incidents are taking place.  It's not a competition, y'know?

 

Let’s all point the finger and vilify the police because it’s the easy thing to do right now. You’re right, we can discuss it and part of discussing it is acknowledging the current sentiment towards police and how there is an obvious hypocrisy in that mindset. 

 

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Would you also like outrage on behalf of the two Louisiana troopers injured in the course of their duties by a brother officer driving a police cruiser?  One of them is in serious condition.  https://www.wwltv.com/article/news/local/northshore/hammond-police-vehicle-hits-two-state-troopers-after-car-chase-lsp-says/289-20dd5184-3fee-43cc-9cf3-fce49b8cd288

Is this that whataboutism thing you were talking about?
 

[Bangarang]

8 hours ago, Bad Things said:

 

What alternatives?

Uh, how about acting civil and respectful?  If he broke the law, you can arrest him, but there really shouldn't be any injuries involved with arresting a 75 year old man.

 

Apart from race, this is exactly what all of the protests are about.  Police officers crossing the line and not being held accountable.

How many times does someone who clearly has an agenda against the police need to be told to get back? 
 

I have no problem with police accountability. Suspend the cops pending a review/investigation. But to charge them with Assault is a joke and was only done to cater to the mob of people outraged.

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Bangarang said:

The 4 Minneapolis cops have been arrested and  charged. Why are there still protests and riots? Is this about race or police? When is justice served and when will it be okay to stop the protests?

 

And what does it mean to be exempt from bail reform? That doesn’t make any sense.

 

 

Fair enough.

It took the protests to get them to bring charges

[Hapless Bills Fan]

37 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

How many times does someone who clearly has an agenda against the police need to be told to get back? 
 

I have no problem with police accountability. Suspend the cops pending a review/investigation. But to charge them with Assault is a joke and was only done to cater to the mob of people outraged.

 

I can't disagree with the second statement.

 

I think they should have been suspended pending investigation and that charging them with assault at this point (they can't have done a very thorough job collecting witness statements or reviewing evidence) could actually cause more problems - if the charges or dropped or the officers acquitted, which they may well be, it creates problems.

 

I don't think anyone here is arguing that the man should be given multiple opportunities.  If he is actually been told to get back and allowed a reasonable reaction time and has done something arrest-worthy, he should be restrained and arrested.  (that's independent from the question of the strategic approach of curfews, beyond the level of police actions). 

 

10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

It took the protests to get them to bring charges

 

I think we can't tell whether or not they would bring charges without protests - perhaps yes, perhaps no. 

 

The problem is, as someone said, "Every town has its George Floyd" and it's been going on for years and years without change.

[GoBills808]

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think we can't tell whether or not they would bring charges without protests - perhaps yes, perhaps no. 

 

The problem is, as someone said, "Every town has its George Floyd" and it's been going on for years and years without change.

And that's the crux of the issue.

[Bangarang]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

It took the protests to get them to bring charges

 

I don’t know that. Maybe you’re right.

Edited June 6, 2020 by Bangarang

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Without video the cops get away with murder and assault. In the Minnesota and Buffalo case the report doesn't match the video. They lie, cover for each other, plant evidence, and use excessive force too often. More widespread use of video is the only reason we are seeing what has been going on for decades.  And even when there is sufficient evidence, juries still let them off. 

Video has also shown that use of force has been justified.  Multiple body camera videos show suicide by cop when the police are attacked and they response is justified for their safety.

This man posed no threat to these cops in body armor. They assaulted him because they knew they could. 

 

[Johnny Hammersticks]

 

Will there be a police presence?  Bull horns?  Tear gas?

[GoBills808]

Just now, Bangarang said:

 

I don’t know that. Maybe you’re right.

I think a preponderance of the evidence suggests I almost certainly am. 

 

And even if I'm not, I see very little point in arguing the side with the resources, political will, prosecutorial connections, and general overwhelming authority. 

[Bangarang]

6 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

 

Will there be a police presence?  Bull horns?  Tear gas?

Only if you reasonably believe these people are going to loot the local Target or try and set fire to city hall.

[Johnny Hammersticks]

1 minute ago, Bangarang said:

Only if you reasonably believe these people are going to loot the local Target or try and set fire to city hall.

 

When the incident in question happened, was there anyone setting fires, looting or being violent?  

[Bangarang]

1 minute ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

 

When the incident in question happened, was there anyone setting fires, looting or being violent?  

I don’t know I wasn’t there.

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Only if you reasonably believe these people are going to loot the local Target or try and set fire to city hall.

‘Reasonable belief’ is your standard for assault, tear gas, general police brutality? Lmfao your privilege has privilege 

[Johnny Hammersticks]

Just now, Bangarang said:

I don’t know I wasn’t there.

 

I’ll help you out.  There was not.  Only peaceful protestors.

[Bangarang]

8 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

‘Reasonable belief’ is your standard for assault, tear gas, general police brutality? Lmfao your privilege has privilege 

 

That’s how you interpreted what I said? Yikes

 

And what privilege are you referring to exactly?

Edited June 6, 2020 by Bangarang

[Lurker]

12 hours ago, Margarita said:

Police Union is refusing to back the policemen involved in this occurance. That's pretty shocking really

 

"Evans said the PBA stands "behind those officers 100%" and that the union would pay for any defense costs for the two officers, Evans said."

 

https://buffalonews.com/2020/06/05/57-members-of-buffalo-police-riot-response-team-resign/

 

 

[Buffalo716]

14 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

 

I’ll help you out.  There was not.  Only peaceful protestors.

But the city has been on edge for a week.

 

Buffalo has always been a really dangerous city, now it's amplified tenfold

 

I know the cops are under duress and nervous. We had cops ran over. Not to mention all the other dangerous stuff they deal with

 

Half of Lovejoy and the east side are boarding up buildings and stores preparing for more riots. A pizzeria had its Windows smashed in the other day down the street from me

 

While there are peaceful protest going on in the city a lot of people are still preparing for a bad situation

Edited June 6, 2020 by Buffalo716

[Johnny Hammersticks]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

But the city has been on edge for a week.

 

Buffalo has always been a really dangerous city, now it's amplified tenfold

 

I know the cops are under duress and nervous. We had cops ran over. Not to mention all the other dangerous stuff they deal with

 

Half of Lovejoy and the east side are boarding up buildings and stores preparing for more riots. A pizzeria had its Windows smashed in the other day down the street from me

 

While there are peaceful protest going on in the city a lot of people are still preparing for a bad situation

 

I am aware.  That’s horribly unfortunate, and I personally condemn looting/violence/destruction of property, but I was speaking to the “assembly” at the time of the incident in question.  Peaceful demonstration.

[Bangarang]

5 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

 

I am aware.  That’s horribly unfortunate, and I personally condemn looting/violence/destruction of property, but I was speaking to the “assembly” at the time of the incident in question.  Peaceful demonstration.

And the police didn’t have a problem with the peaceful protest. Their objective was to enforce the curfew.

[Buffalo716]

6 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

 

I am aware.  That’s horribly unfortunate, and I personally condemn looting/violence/destruction of property, but I was speaking to the “assembly” at the time of the incident in question.  Peaceful demonstration.

Yes that was totally a peaceful protest

 

Which 99% of them are in the city. It's always 1% that are bad apples

[Johnny Hammersticks]

Just now, Bangarang said:

And the police didn’t have a problem with the peaceful protest. Their objective was to enforce the curfew.

 

And they clearly botched that assignment, huh?  I mean, that’s why we are discussing this, correct?

[Bangarang]

9 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

 

And they clearly botched that assignment, huh?  I mean, that’s why we are discussing this, correct?

So it would seem

[GoBills808]

31 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

 

That’s how you interpreted what I said? Yikes

 

And what privilege are you referring to exactly?

If you need to ask...

[K-9]

On 6/4/2020 at 10:40 PM, K-9 said:

It ain’t easy being caught in a bald faced lie. Is it simply a matter of training, fitness for the job, a combination? I honestly don’t know. But there was no justification in taking that action. 

 

On 6/5/2020 at 10:13 AM, K-9 said:

If it was all a justified response by officers in the course of duty, then why the need to lie about the incident initially? 

Mike DeGeorge is the head of communications for the BPD and after reading his explanation in today’s BN, I accept his explanation regarding the initial reports about this incident. It seems like an honest mistake and I choose to take him at his word. 
 

There was also an article citing several experts on police tactics, etc., and I side with the one who is of the opinion that it was “lawful, but awful.” 
 

These officers and their commander needed to exercise better judgement in the moment, but I disagree with the decision to charge them with assault. A period of suspension without pay would suffice, imo. 
 

EDIT: Since my original posts are cited above for reference and I retract them in total, I’m gonna delete them from the thread. 

Edited June 6, 2020 by K-9

[Bangarang]

5 minutes ago, K-9 said:

 

Mike DeGeorge is the head of communications for the BPD and after reading his explanation in today’s BN, I accept his explanation regarding the initial reports about this incident. It seems like an honest mistake and I choose to take him at his word. 
 

There was also an article citing several experts on police tactics, etc., and I side with the one who is of the opinion that it was “lawful, but awful.” 
 

These officers and their commander needed to exercise better judgement in the moment, but I disagree with the decision to charge them with assault. A period of suspension without pay would suffice, imo. 

I agree with this.

20 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

If you need to ask...

Clearly I did need to ask and I’ll do it again in the hopes that you can clarify it for me.

 

What privilege are you referring to? 

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Clearly I did need to ask and I’ll do it again in the hopes that you can clarify it for me.

 

What privilege are you referring to? 

The one wherein you feel justified in asserting a 'reasonable expectation' should be the standard for police violence against peaceful protestors.