RB is a really GLARING need, right?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

22 minutes ago, Billl said:

It was a joke.  No offense meant.

 

I put Daniel Jones up there mostly as a joke myself - while he was noted coming out of college as having enough scrambling ability to move the chains, he certainly wasn't drafted as a dual-threat QB, but with Saquan Barkley on IR he was 2nd in yards had the most YPA, 6.5, on the G-men last year.  Like I said "wasn't supposed to be that way!"

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

I’m not sure I would agree that Allen is the best rusher on the team, even if he has to date wound up being the most effective. For sure he’s a much better runner than Moss or Singletary are QBs though.

 

Last season opened it for debate, but only because Allen used his field vision and ability to make guys miss in the cause of extending the play to pass.

Last season, on the other hand, Singletary looked slow and hesitant and did not display good field vision, IMO - he earned his decrease from 5.1 to 4.4 ypa independent of OL problems.

 

Let me put it to you this way - if you're a LB or safety between a runner and the open field, who would you rather have had coming at you last season - Allen, Moss, or Singletary?   He can do better and I hope he will, but I think Moss's foot hampered him all season.  Motor would dance around until the rest of the D caught him from behind while trying to evade. 

 

I don't think anyone in the league was afraid that Singletary or Moss would "Josh Norman" them a la Derrick Henry (or blow by them).  Josh Allen, on the other hand, seems pretty widely agreed "you better have a plan to tackle him and bring the lumber" as Von Miller said, and you better have a good angle too because once he gets up to speed he's deceptively fast.

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Last season opened it for debate, but only because Allen used his field vision and ability to make guys miss in the cause of extending the play to pass.

Last season, on the other hand, Singletary looked slow and hesitant and did not display good field vision, IMO - he earned his decrease from 5.1 to 4.4 ypa independent of OL problems.

 

Let me put it to you this way - if you're a LB or safety between a runner and the open field, who would you rather have had coming at you last season - Allen, Moss, or Singletary?   He can do better and I hope he will, but I think Moss's foot hampered him all season.  Motor would dance around until the rest of the D caught him from behind while trying to evade. 

 

I don't think anyone in the league was afraid that Singletary or Moss would "Josh Norman" them a la Derrick Henry (or blow by them).  Josh Allen, on the other hand, seems pretty widely agreed "you better have a plan to tackle him and bring the lumber" as Von Miller said, and you better have a good angle too because once he gets up to speed he's deceptively fast.

I think Allen's a dangerous runner 

 

But I think people also think he's a little better than what he actually is... He doesn't have the center of gravity of an NFL running back.. he runs high and gets taken out at the knees way too easily 

 

When he sees man coverage and backs turn to him, he's super dangerous to take off for 10 to 20 yards.. and he does have some good agility and a stiff arm

 

But he has the benefit of running from the QB spot , which is completely different and easier than running as a running back ..

 

So he is a threat to run and he does look really good when he does it.. but he isn't built like an NFL running back.. 

 

So he might be our most talented rusher, because it's easier to run from the quarterback spot and he can get chunk yards.. but Its not like he's a good enough runner to play running back 

 

If I was a linebacker I would rather tackle Josh Allen then Zack Moss

 

 

 

 

[starrymessenger]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Last season opened it for debate, but only because Allen used his field vision and ability to make guys miss in the cause of extending the play to pass.

Last season, on the other hand, Singletary looked slow and hesitant and did not display good field vision, IMO - he earned his decrease from 5.1 to 4.4 ypa independent of OL problems.

 

Let me put it to you this way - if you're a LB or safety between a runner and the open field, who would you rather have had coming at you last season - Allen, Moss, or Singletary?   He can do better and I hope he will, but I think Moss's foot hampered him all season.  Motor would dance around until the rest of the D caught him from behind while trying to evade. 

 

I don't think anyone in the league was afraid that Singletary or Moss would "Josh Norman" them a la Derrick Henry (or blow by them).  Josh Allen, on the other hand, seems pretty widely agreed "you better have a plan to tackle him and bring the lumber" as Von Miller said, and you better have a good angle too because once he gets up to speed he's deceptively fast.

Josh is big, fast and feisty. In the open field and with a head of steam I wouldn’t want to get in his way (not sure I’d want to get into Moss’s way either). My question for you, better expressed, was whether you think Allen would be more productive than Moss or Motor if he actually lined up as a running back, as they do. I’m not sure he would put up better numbers playing behind our line. Many of his open field opportunities come from essentially broken plays where the opposing defence was set up to stop the pass. The RBs don’t get those opportunities. I think Lamar would be a very good tailback but then I don’t consider him elite as a QB (though I’m not saying he’s not a QB).

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I think Allen's a dangerous runner 

 

But I think people also think he's a little better than what he actually is... He doesn't have the center of gravity of an NFL running back.. he runs high and gets taken out at the knees way too easily 

 

When he sees man coverage and backs turn to him, he's super dangerous to take off for 10 to 20 yards.. and he does have some good agility and a stiff arm

 

But he has the benefit of running from the QB spot , which is completely different and easier than running as a running back ..

 

So he is a threat to run and he does look really good when he does it.. but he isn't built like an NFL running back.. 

 

So he might be our most talented rusher, because it's easier to run from the quarterback spot and he can get chunk yards.. but Its not like he's a good enough runner to play running back 

 

If I was a linebacker I would rather tackle Josh Allen then Zack Moss

 

Well, certainly as a QB it's his job to avoid contact - to get out of bounds or slide, not to run into the LB and take a couple guys with him (even though he's done that on occasion)

 

So I take your point, and also the point that he doesn't have the COG or (for that matter) the fast acceleration of an RB. 

 

We may disagree a little bit on what he's like as a downfield runner.  He isn't "Cheetah" Hill, but on the other hand, neither is anyone else in the Bills backfield....unless Breida regains his SF form, perhaps.

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, certainly as a QB it's his job to avoid contact - to get out of bounds or slide, not to run into the LB and take a couple guys with him (even though he's done that on occasion)

 

So I take your point, and also the point that he doesn't have the COG or (for that matter) the fast acceleration of an RB. 

 

We may disagree a little bit on what he's like as a downfield runner.  He isn't "Cheetah" Hill, but on the other hand, neither is anyone else in the Bills backfield....unless Breida regains his SF form, perhaps.

I don't think we disagree how effective as a runner he is .. I think he's the second best running quarterback in the NFL 

 

And when he gets moving downhill he's fast and big 

 

He's just built for 5 to 7 carries game not 20.. because he has a lot of body exposed with how big is.. and he doesn't have the agility of a Lamar Jackson

 

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Buffalo716

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

Josh is big, fast and feisty. In the open field and with a head of steam I wouldn’t want to get in his way (not sure I’d want to get into Moss’s way either). My question for you, better expressed, was whether you think Allen would be more productive than Moss or Motor if he actually lined up as a running back, as they do. I’m not sure he would put up better numbers playing behind our line. Many of his open field opportunities come from essentially broken plays where the opposing defence was set up to stop the pass. The RBs don’t get those opportunities. I think Lamar would be a very good tailback but then I don’t consider him elite as a QB (though I’m not saying he’s not a QB).

 

Oh, no - put that way, not at all.  @Buffalo716 points are germaine that he's not built like a running back, and certainly wouldn't succeed behind our line - he needs time to accelerate.  He would put up better numbers, though, if he were trying to develop his career more along a Newton/Jackson "dual threat" trajectory vs. using his legs primarily to extend plays.

 

And more of his rush opportunities than you think may come from designed plays, some of which I wouldn't mind if Daboll put through the shredder.

7 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I don't think we disagree how effective as a runner he is .. I think he's the second best running quarterback in the NFL 

 

And when he gets moving downhill he's fast and big 

 

He's just built for 5 to 7 carries game not 20.. because he has a lot of body exposed with how big is.. and he doesn't have the agility of a Lamar Jackson

 

Fair on that last

 

Let's hope Singletary improves this season and Moss returns from injury better and stronger.

 

Addendum: Just looked it up and Josh was 7.4, 6.8, 6.4 A/G his 3 years.  Given what you say, would you like to see him back off his attempts?

[The_Ripster]

Is it safe to say this season is a make or break year for the current backfield?

Assuming it is Singletary, Moss + Breida, would it be a failure if none of them come close to cracking 1000 yards?

 

[Buffalo716]

23 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh, no - put that way, not at all.  @Buffalo716 points are germaine that he's not built like a running back, and certainly wouldn't succeed behind our line - he needs time to accelerate.  He would put up better numbers, though, if he were trying to develop his career more along a Newton/Jackson "dual threat" trajectory vs. using his legs primarily to extend plays.

 

And more of his rush opportunities than you think may come from designed plays, some of which I wouldn't mind if Daboll put through the shredder.

 

Fair on that last

 

Let's hope Singletary improves this season and Moss returns from injury better and stronger.

 

Addendum: Just looked it up and Josh was 7.4, 6.8, 6.4 A/G his 3 years.  Given what you say, would you like to see him back off his attempts?

That's like the perfect number. Anything more than five but probably under 10

 

He needs to keep the defense honest, without making it predictable... 

 

Seven rushing attempts a game is the perfect number to keep the ends containing and not rushing upfield.. so Josh gets a cleaner pocket and more time, just based on the threat to rush

[njbuff]

I say Moss or A. Williams can emerge as a real threat in this offense, with Breida providing a speed element off the bench.

 

Singletary can stop on a dime, which can make him a good back, but he is simply too small and too slow to ever be consistent.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, The_Ripster said:

Is it safe to say this season is a make or break year for the current backfield?
Assuming it is Singletary, Moss + Breida, would it be a failure if none of them come close to cracking 1000 yards?

 

So let's spitball numbers a bit on this.

 

Last season, the #1 rushing offense (Ravens) had >3000 yds.

#2 (Titans) was 2700.  

OK, we're a passing offense, that's not where we wanna be. 

 

Last season, Bills were bottom-3rd of the league (20th) with 1723 rush yards, and only one of the teams below us (Houston) had a QB who generated significant rushing yards.  If we subtract out Allen's 421 rush yards, that would be even worse: 1302 yds which would put us....2nd to last in the league for rush yards (cue sad trombone noise) (above only Houston if you take out Deshaun Watson's rushes)

 

So where do we want to be?  I would say we want to improve to above average: ~2000 yds maybe? which would put us 11th in the league.  If we assume that Allen gets comparable rushing yards, that would say we need ~1500 yds from our backs. 

 

Last season we had 300 attempts from our backs.  With that # of attempts that would be 5 ypa from our backs, which seems unrealistic.  But 2019 Singletary had 5.1 ypa, so maybe it's not too unrealistic. 

 

Spitball conclusion: I don't think it would be a failure if none of the backs crack 1000 yds, but if it's (say) a 60/40 split, one of them better come pretty close.

 

 

[Boxcar]

Can anyone explain to me why CEH is so highly regarded? We are crapping on Singletary for having a bad year, and in that bad year he had the same ypc as CEH, around the same number of receptions and slightly less reception yards yet CEH ranks 17 and Singletary 31. I don't get it. People seem to act like he's a lot better than he actually is.

[Augie]

2 hours ago, The_Ripster said:

Is it safe to say this season is a make or break year for the current backfield?

Assuming it is Singletary, Moss + Breida, would it be a failure if none of them come close to cracking 1000 yards?

 

 

I think it as much of a statement on the OLine as it is on the RB’s I think they would be fine if they had anywhere to run and hope that improves next season. Singletary has a career 4.8 ypc, if I recall. He won’t rip off that 90 yard TD, but he can keep the chains moving given somewhere to run, IMO. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

21 minutes ago, Boxcar said:

Can anyone explain to me why CEH is so highly regarded? We are crapping on Singletary for having a bad year, and in that bad year he had the same ypc as CEH, around the same number of receptions and slightly less reception yards yet CEH ranks 17 and Singletary 31. I don't get it. People seem to act like he's a lot better than he actually is.

 

Interesting point.  I was surprised when I looked at their stats.

 

I think - and I could be wrong - that CEH may be more "steady Eddie" where he gained yardage consistently when they needed it, while our backs had more negative plays (which are sometimes their fault, and often not)

 

Where's @Zerovoltz or @Billl?  Maybe they have some insight here.

 

[The_Ripster]

1 hour ago, Augie said:

 

I think it as much of a statement on the OLine as it is on the RB’s I think they would be fine if they had anywhere to run and hope that improves next season. Singletary has a career 4.8 ypc, if I recall. He won’t rip off that 90 yard TD, but he can keep the chains moving given somewhere to run, IMO. 

Considering the amount of new faces constantly improving the OLine at a certain point the blame has to get shifted towards the backfield.

Like @Hapless Bills Fan "Bills were bottom-3rd of the league (20th) with 1723 rush yards, and If we subtract out Allen's 421 rush yards, that would be even worse: 1302 yds which would put us....2nd to last in the league for rush yards."

Are you suggesting our OLine is 2nd to last in the league? Allen is gonna eat regardless IMO, he's just that good.

I think it would be disappointing if the RB's can't generate 1500+ yards between the 3 of them. 

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, The_Ripster said:

Considering the amount of new faces constantly improving the OLine at a certain point the blame has to get shifted towards the backfield.

Like @Hapless Bills Fan "Bills were bottom-3rd of the league (20th) with 1723 rush yards, and If we subtract out Allen's 421 rush yards, that would be even worse: 1302 yds which would put us....2nd to last in the league for rush yards."

Are you suggesting our OLine is 2nd to last in the league? Allen is gonna eat regardless IMO, he's just that good.

I think it would be disappointing if the RB's can't generate 1500+ yards between the 3 of them. 

 

I watched the games, and I’m suggesting we are a pass heavy offense with pretty good pass pro, and pretty poor run blocking. Stats can be twisted all kinds of ways, but our backs were not entirely to blame for the lack of a run game last year. Even the coaches admitted they would have done better if they had focused on it more in practice. 

 

As for new faces improving the OLine, it looks very possible we will start almost the same line as last year. We drafted a couple guys who should be good rebounders, but it’s not like we turned the line over. I hope between coaching, scheme and emphasis we can improve. It’s NOT all just about the backs. 

[The_Ripster]

3 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I watched the games, and I’m suggesting we are a pass heavy offense with pretty good pass pro, and pretty poor run blocking. Stats can be twisted all kinds of ways, but our backs were not entirely to blame for the lack of a run game last year. Even the coaches admitted they would have done better if they had focused on it more in practice. 

 

As for new faces improving the OLine, it looks very possible we will start almost the same line as last year. We drafted a couple guys who should be good rebounders, but it’s not like we turned the line over. I hope between coaching, scheme and emphasis we can improve. It’s NOT all just about the backs. 

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what your point is? We have a good OLine that is improving every year, BUT it is still 2nd last in the league in the run game?

Not much stat twisting going on here. Those are straight up report card marks. 

[ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin]

7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Last season opened it for debate, but only because Allen used his field vision and ability to make guys miss in the cause of extending the play to pass.

Last season, on the other hand, Singletary looked slow and hesitant and did not display good field vision, IMO - he earned his decrease from 5.1 to 4.4 ypa independent of OL problems.

 

Let me put it to you this way - if you're a LB or safety between a runner and the open field, who would you rather have had coming at you last season - Allen, Moss, or Singletary?   He can do better and I hope he will, but I think Moss's foot hampered him all season.  Motor would dance around until the rest of the D caught him from behind while trying to evade. 

 

I don't think anyone in the league was afraid that Singletary or Moss would "Josh Norman" them a la Derrick Henry (or blow by them).  Josh Allen, on the other hand, seems pretty widely agreed "you better have a plan to tackle him and bring the lumber" as Von Miller said, and you better have a good angle too because once he gets up to speed he's deceptively fast.

 

Hey Hap, I think Singletary is not a good zone runner. The Bills went mostly to zone blocking around game 6. This hurt Spain and Singletary but helped Morse, Moss, D. Williams and the backup OGs. It was a calculated risk. Notice Spain got shipped off because he was not happy about the change, and Singletary struggled.

 

Moss excelled and the pass protect held up. Prior to the change to zone blocking Moss was averaging 1.8 YPC. The thing is he was the best pass blocking back on the roster, so Buffalo needed to find a way to get him in the game and be effective as a runner and blocker IMO.

 

The one RB the Bills brought in is Breida who is a one cut zone runner. He will do well if the Bills keep a zone scheme.

 

I am disappointed the Bills passed on Wyatt Davis and Creed Humphrey multiple times.... I hope Gregory and Basham work out.

 

I am hopeful for Lamp. I think he is a day 1 starter, he is a solid zone blocker.

 

IOL was a clear need and I feel like they keep botching the OL. (trade Teller, cut Spain, keep Ford, pass on Davis and Humphrey, draft Brown and Doyle)

 

Beane is good at a lot of things, but management of OL and DL is questionable at best.

10 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I watched the games, and I’m suggesting we are a pass heavy offense with pretty good pass pro, and pretty poor run blocking. Stats can be twisted all kinds of ways, but our backs were not entirely to blame for the lack of a run game last year. Even the coaches admitted they would have done better if they had focused on it more in practice. 

 

As for new faces improving the OLine, it looks very possible we will start almost the same line as last year. We drafted a couple guys who should be good rebounders, but it’s not like we turned the line over. I hope between coaching, scheme and emphasis we can improve. It’s NOT all just about the backs. 

 

Hey Augie,

 

The eye does not lie. Singletary struggled in a zone scheme. Moss excelled. Breida is a one cut zone runner. It is a good fit.

 

Still needed a piece or two IOL though and Buffalo chose two project OTs...

[Augie]

11 minutes ago, ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin said:

 

Hey Augie,

 

The eye does not lie. Singletary struggled in a zone scheme. Moss excelled. Breida is a one cut zone runner. It is a good fit.

 

Still needed a piece or two IOL though and Buffalo chose two project OTs...

 

Hence the comment that between coaching, scheme and emphasis this is not all on the RB’s.  Singletary has a two year average of 4.8 YPC. That is NOT the mark of a guy who can’t play in the NFL. It is more likely a guy who isn’t being used properly behind a line that didn’t exactly make things easy for Moss, either. Moss excelled in pass pro, once again going to the teams emphasis. 

 

To say Singletary struggled in the zone scheme and Moss excelled, while Singletary had a a slightly better YPC makes me wonder how you arrived at that point?  Your eye just might have lied. 

 

 

.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Augie

[ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin]

3 hours ago, Augie said:

 

Hence the comment that between coaching, scheme and emphasis this is not all on the RB’s.  Singletary has a two year average of 4.8 YPC. That is NOT the mark of a guy who can’t play in the NFL. It is more likely a guy who isn’t being used properly behind a line that didn’t exactly make things easy for Moss, either. Moss excelled in pass pro, once again going to the teams emphasis. 

 

To say Singletary struggled in the zone scheme and Moss excelled, while Singletary had a a slightly better YPC makes me wonder how you arrived at that point?  Your eye just might have lied. 

 

 

.

 

Easy Augie. I was mostly agreeing with you. The OL and run blocking scheme is the biggest hurdle the Offense has.

 

IOL should have been a higher draft priority. Do we not agree?

Bills passed on Wyatt Davis (OG) 2x, Creed Humphrey (C) 2x and Ben Cleveland (OG) x3.

All safe bets to be NFL starters for a decade. KC and Baltimore loved our picks and got richer for them.

 

I'm not convinced blocking has been figured out, and they may have passed on some very good OL this draft because of it.

Around week 5 Buffalo went from Power/Man to Zone blocking. It definitely helped Moss. Spain was cut.....

 

I was right about Moss here are the game logs:

Considering Weeks 1-5 as power blocking (TN game) vs zone blocking (KC and after)

 

Moss:

Week 1-5

C      YDS    AVG    TD

17     48       2.8      0

Week 6-16

95     433    4.6      4

Clearly better, eyes don't lie Augie. Almost double the AVG Per Carry. That is what I saw and the stats prove it.

4.6 > 2.8 and yes I SAW it. Was easy to see.

 

I was wrong about Singletary though.

Singletary:

Week 1-5

C       YDS   AVG   TD

61      238    3.9     1

Week 6-16

95     449    4.7     1

 

4.7 > 3.9. Clearly zone blocking helped.

 

The move to zone blocking helped both backs.

The move seems justified even though Buffalo lost a good OG (Spain)

This created a balanced time share between Moss and Singletary. 1:4 vs 1:1

Moss was rated as one of the best blocking RBs in the NFL by multiple sources.

In a passing scheme you go with the better blocker who has a similar YPC.

Breida is a home run threat in a zone scheme.

Moss is proving to be a blocking beast with a better nose for the end zone.

 

Singletary is still the odd man out, and IOL should have been addressed.

 

Hoping for Lamp to look good at LG. I would feel better with Humphrey as OC2, and Davis or Cleveland at OG.

 

But what do I know? I thought Teller was a beast here.

Edited July 9, 2021 by ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin

[The_Ripster]

54 minutes ago, Augie said:

To say Singletary struggled in the zone scheme and Moss excelled, while Singletary had a a slightly better YPC makes me wonder how you arrived at that point?  Your eye just might have lied. 

Hey man, stats can be twisted all kinds of ways.

[Teddy KGB]

Hear me out. 
 

Tremaine Edwards as RB1 

[The_Ripster]

6 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

Hear me out. 
 

Tremaine Edwards as RB1 

 
Lol who's Tremaine EDWARDS?

[JaCrispy]

13 minutes ago, The_Ripster said:

 
Lol who's Tremaine EDWARDS?

Not sure, but I hear Trent Edmunds is a sleeper pick at TE...stay tuned...😉

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, The_Ripster said:

Like @Hapless Bills Fan "Bills were bottom-3rd of the league (20th) with 1723 rush yards, and If we subtract out Allen's 421 rush yards, that would be even worse: 1302 yds which would put us....2nd to last in the league for rush yards."

Are you suggesting our OLine is 2nd to last in the league? Allen is gonna eat regardless IMO, he's just that good.

I think it would be disappointing if the RB's can't generate 1500+ yards between the 3 of them. 

 

You're taking one line out of context and seriously distorting my meaning thereby.  Frankly, when someone is attempting to address a question YOU asked in a realistic and meaningful way, that's somewhat tacky.

 

I am in response to your question "Is it safe to say this season is a make or break year for the current backfield? Assuming it is Singletary, Moss + Breida, would it be a failure if none of them come close to cracking 1000 yards?"

 

We know Allen and the WR are going to "eat" in the passing game, so the number of rush attempts is unlikely to increase substantially.

 

The point I was making is to address your question quoted above: establish where we were last season, and then look at what would be a realistic improvement goal for rush yards, given that we aren't likely to "change our spots" and become a run-first team - and that our backs are unlikely to become Chubb, Jones, or Henry (top backs in the league for YPA).

 

That was my point: "So where do we want to be?  I would say we want to improve to above average: ~2000 yds maybe? which would put us 11th in the league.  If we assume that Allen gets comparable rushing yards, that would say we need ~1500 yds from our backs. 

 

Last season we had 300 attempts from our backs.  With that # of attempts that would be 5 ypa from our backs, which seems unrealistic.  But 2019 Singletary had 5.1 ypa, so maybe it's not too unrealistic. 

 

Spitball conclusion: I don't think it would be a failure if none of the backs crack 1000 yds, but if it's (say) a 60/40 split, one of them better come pretty close."

 

The point I was trying to make is that unless you hypothesize that one back gets almost 70% of the attempts AND achieves >5 ypa, we're unlikely to see a back with >1000 yds unless the # rush attempts increases substantially - and I don't see that happening.  In fact I believe McDermott, Daboll, and Bobby Johnson have all pretty much indicated that change in quality, not quantity, is what

 

If you disagree with this assessment, spell out why - but please don't twist my words and attempt to make my post into an argument about whether the backs or the OL were to blame or some pronouncement on the quality of the OL - that's NOT the point. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, The_Ripster said:

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what your point is? We have a good OLine that is improving every year, BUT it is still 2nd last in the league in the run game?

Not much stat twisting going on here. Those are straight up report card marks. 

 

How are you getting "second to last in the league in the run game"?  You said this also in response to me, but it's not at all justified by the post you were responding to.

 

For example, in order to assess the quality of run blocking based upon run game production, you can't just look at the yards and say "second to last"

You would have to look at the YPA, 4.2, where the Bills were 19th in the league (and Allen, with his 4.1 YPA last season, did not alter this)

[Boxcar]

1 hour ago, ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin said:

 

Easy Augie. I was mostly agreeing with you. The OL and run blocking scheme is the biggest hurdle the Offense has.

 

IOL should have been a higher draft priority. Do we not agree?

Bills passed on Wyatt Davis (OG) 3x and Creed Humphrey (C) 2x.

Both safe bets to be NFL starters for a decade.

 

I'm not convinced it has been figured out, and they may have passed on some very good OL this draft because of it.

Around week 5 Buffalo went from Power/Man to Zone blocking. It definitely helped Moss.

 

I was right about Moss and wrong about Singletary. Took some time to break it out by game log.

Considering Weeks 1-5 as power blocking (TN game) vs zone blocking (KC and after)

 

Moss:

Week 1-5

C      YDS    AVG    TD

17     48       2.8      0

Week 6-16

95     433    4.6      4

Clearly better, eyes don't lie Augie. Almost double the AVG Per Carry. That is what I saw and the stats prove it.

 

I have been wrong about Singletary though.

Singletary:

Week 1-5

C       YDS   AVG   TD

61      238    3.9     1

Week 6-16

95     449    4.7     1

 

The move to zone blocking helped both backs. This created a better time share between Moss and Singletary.

Moss was rated as one of the best blocking RBs in the NFL by multiple sources.

In a passing scheme you go with the better blocker who has a similar YPC.

Breida is a home run threat in a zone scheme.

Moss is proving to be a blocking beast with a better nose for the end zone.

 

Singletary is still the odd man out, and IOL should have been addressed. Hoping for Lamp to look good.

Did this not coincide with the return of Feliciano, who is a decent run blocker?

 

I also don't understand how you presume to know more than pro scouts. How do you know Humphrey and Davis are locks to have long careers, but Spencer Brown isn't?

Edited July 9, 2021 by Boxcar

[The_Ripster]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You're taking one line out of context and seriously distorting my meaning thereby.  Frankly, when someone is attempting to address a question YOU asked in a realistic and meaningful way, that's somewhat tacky.

 

I am in response to your question "Is it safe to say this season is a make or break year for the current backfield? Assuming it is Singletary, Moss + Breida, would it be a failure if none of them come close to cracking 1000 yards?"

 

We know Allen and the WR are going to "eat" in the passing game, so the number of rush attempts is unlikely to increase substantially.

 

The point I was making is to address your question quoted above: establish where we were last season, and then look at what would be a realistic improvement goal for rush yards, given that we aren't likely to "change our spots" and become a run-first team - and that our backs are unlikely to become Chubb, Jones, or Henry (top backs in the league for YPA).

unless you hypothesize that one back gets almost 70% of the attempts AND achieves >5 ypa, we're unlikely to see a back with >1000 yds unless the # rush attempts increases substantially - and I don't see that happening.  In fact I believe McDermott, Daboll, and Bobby Johnson have all pretty much indicated that change in quality, not quantity, is what

 

If you disagree with this assessment, spell out why - but please don't twist my words and attempt to make my post into an argument about whether the backs or the OL were to blame or some pronouncement on the quality of the OL - that's NOT the point. 

Mate, you're upset because I used the statistics that you posted to bolster my own opinion? Just because I gave you credit to posting the statistics does not thereby mean I was stating you were fully congruent with my own conclusion of what I would consider to be a successful season. 

In fact, with what many of you are saying, improved OLine play in addition to improved rushing from the backfield (aside from Allen), should significantly help team rushing yardage to an acceptable league average despite being a pass first team.  I believe that is an acceptable hypothesis.

I then retorted facetiously with the question, do we have a 2nd to last OLine when it comes to rushing the football because we would be 2nd last in the league without Allen's rushing stats, as I was exaggerating that I do NOT believe the OLine is THAT bad. In fact I think they are pretty good.

Now some excellent points have been made attributing low run success based on poor choice of scheme for RB play style and I can understand how that could be a detrimental issue. 

One would think that if they can reconfigure some of the schemes as well as increase the quality of play from the OLine and the RB's they should greatly improve.

[ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin]

46 minutes ago, Boxcar said:

Did this not coincide with the return of Feliciano, who is a decent run blocker?

 

I also don't understand how you presume to know more than pro scouts. How do you know Humphrey and Davis are locks to have long careers, but Spencer Brown isn't?

 

Seem to misunderstand the post. I'm a Feliciano fan. Made that clear in multiple posts. But the other OG is a mess and C is not settled. I also clearly pointed out that Moss ran better in a zone scheme. 4.6 > 2.8. That is basic math. My consensus is that better linemen = better balance = better for Josh Allen. Also pretty clear.

 

The Buffalo Bills went from power blocking to zone blocking around week 5 or 6. That is also clear to many people. It helped Moss, maybe Singletary. Moss went from 2.8 YPC to 4.6 YPC. 0 TD to 4 TD. He went from 1:4 carries to 1:1 carries as ratio in that time. I can't explain this easier.

 

Also clear to most people; Spain, a very good power blocker was off the team shortly after the switch to zone blocking, even though Spain was re-signed the prior offseason. Oops. This created a NEED at OG. Obvious right?

 

For the draft:

Humphrey was the consensus #1C in the draft by everyone. He was there at Buffalo's 2nd round pick. The fact Andy Reid took 0 time to take him two picks later says everything. Andy Reid seems to agree with me. Andy Reid is a terrible dad, but knows something about NFL offense. Our starting C is a shot to the head away from being out of the league forever. I worry about his long term health. It may have been wise to draft his replacement now, instead of later. But hey, who wants to plan for the immediate future at round two???

 

Wyatt Davis was a consensus #1 or #2 OG in the draft. He went a pick or two before Buffalo's pick in the 3rd, Ben Cleveland (OG) was also there. Baltimore, who drafts well, took Ben Cleveland the pick right after Buffalo took a project OT. I guess me and Baltimore Ravens GM Eric DeCosta agree too.

 

I also knew ditching Teller was a mistake, as much as sticking with Ford is now. Doesn't take a genius.

Edited July 9, 2021 by ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin

[GreggTX]

No. CB2 and LG and TE are glaring needs. DE remains a glaring need until proven otherwise. Singletary is not a big concern. We need to use him better. We also need to figure out how to make better use of Breida than Chan did last year.

[ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin]

31 minutes ago, GreggTX said:

No. CB2 and LG and TE are glaring needs. DE remains a glaring need until proven otherwise. Singletary is not a big concern. We need to use him better. We also need to figure out how to make better use of Breida than Chan did last year.

 

C will become a glaring need when MM has another concussion. (not if, but when)

OG has been a glaring need since the switch from power to zone blocking. (hole now)

 

Breida will do well here as a zone run RB.

 

Buffalo failed even when OC #1 and OG #1 and OG #2 were available in round 2 and/or round 3 in the last draft.

You protect the franchise at all costs. (FAIL)

KC and BAL did though, they took OC #1 (2nd round #32) and OG #2 (2nd round #34) 2 picks and one pick after ours.

 

This is why we can't have nice things.

We took 2 DE in a weak DE class, and 2 OT projects when we needed IOL...

At best 2 of these top 4 picks will see starting time as regulars over the next 5 years.

 

2 of 3 players noted (Humphrey/ Davis/ Cleveland) that Buffalo passed on will be starters and pro-bowlers/ all pros, and we will regret this draft.

Edited July 9, 2021 by ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin

[iccrewman112]

On 7/7/2021 at 6:02 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I said elsewhere and will say here. 

 

I agree, Josh Allen is probably the most talented rusher on the team. 

That's probably true of a number of other teams: Ravens (Lamar Jackson), Cardinals (Kyler Murray), New England (Cam Newton), Texans (Deshaun Watson), Seattle (Russ Wilson).  Even the Giants! (Daniel Jones) - which, Damn! Daniel -  was NOT supposed to be that way!

 

 

 

Saquon Barkley disagrees.

 

 

[Boxcar]

6 hours ago, ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin said:

 

Seem to misunderstand the post. I'm a Feliciano fan. Made that clear in multiple posts. But the other OG is a mess and C is not settled. I also clearly pointed out that Moss ran better in a zone scheme. 4.6 > 2.8. That is basic math. My consensus is that better linemen = better balance = better for Josh Allen. Also pretty clear.

 

The Buffalo Bills went from power blocking to zone blocking around week 5 or 6. That is also clear to many people. It helped Moss, maybe Singletary. Moss went from 2.8 YPC to 4.6 YPC. 0 TD to 4 TD. He went from 1:4 carries to 1:1 carries as ratio in that time. I can't explain this easier.

 

Also clear to most people; Spain, a very good power blocker was off the team shortly after the switch to zone blocking, even though Spain was re-signed the prior offseason. Oops. This created a NEED at OG. Obvious right?

 

For the draft:

Humphrey was the consensus #1C in the draft by everyone. He was there at Buffalo's 2nd round pick. The fact Andy Reid took 0 time to take him two picks later says everything. Andy Reid seems to agree with me. Andy Reid is a terrible dad, but knows something about NFL offense. Our starting C is a shot to the head away from being out of the league forever. I worry about his long term health. It may have been wise to draft his replacement now, instead of later. But hey, who wants to plan for the immediate future at round two???

 

Wyatt Davis was a consensus #1 or #2 OG in the draft. He went a pick or two before Buffalo's pick in the 3rd, Ben Cleveland (OG) was also there. Baltimore, who drafts well, took Ben Cleveland the pick right after Buffalo took a project OT. I guess me and Baltimore Ravens GM Eric DeCosta agree too.

 

I also knew ditching Teller was a mistake, as much as sticking with Ford is now. Doesn't take a genius.

 

1. Quinton Spain started two games last year and then barely played until his release. This does not coincide with your timeline.

 

2. Good teams draft busts all the time. The draft is a crapshoot. Your appeals to authority mean nothing. By that post, you're also implying that the Bills have an inferior front office because they didn't take who ESPN told you was the best available player.

 

3. I was implying that the improvement in rushing numbers coincided more with replacing Winters, who sucked, with Feliciano rather than a change in scheme.

[BillsShredder83]

15 hours ago, Boxcar said:

Can anyone explain to me why CEH is so highly regarded? We are crapping on Singletary for having a bad year, and in that bad year he had the same ypc as CEH, around the same number of receptions and slightly less reception yards yet CEH ranks 17 and Singletary 31. I don't get it. People seem to act like he's a lot better than he actually is.

Hes over valued. I'm sure it's draft status, being on an elite team our fans followed most of the year, and the fact he was kryptonite against us. He's a solid back, but certainly not worthy of the praise I've seen on here

[Putin]

Right !

[JaCrispy]

I don’t know what I hate talking about more- our weak running game or our weak TE’s....either way, I see both holding this offense back from reaching it’s true potential...

[Zerovoltz]

@Hapless Bills Fan and others -

 

I can't speak for others, commentators etc...but here are my thoughts on this.

 

CEH didn't have a great season.  He was underwhelming, and perhaps most disappointing was his lack of presence in our passing game.  

 

I'd say, he had a few moments where you could see talent........specifically, if he got moving in some space, he could juke well and break tackles. 

 

I do think that CEH was hurt more than most by having no camp etc last year.  They didn't trust him in the pass/pass blocking game at all.  he was a non factor.  When it mattered, Darrell Williams was on the field.  

 

I think I share the opinion of many KC fans, that CEH, given a full camp, and especially given the revamped line....will have a much better year and look more like a guy who was taken in round 1 and the first RB off the board in his class.  He did NOT look like that last year, but he did have moments where you could see "it".

 

I saw some chatter here about Oline.....and I'd like to bring up again, without trying to sound too much like a KC Homer....that the O line changes are going to be of a huge impact to the KC offense.

 

Just an overview of what to expect, and how that relates to CEH ---->  As mentioned here in other posts, KC is going to likely have 5 new starting O linemen, and the expectation is, this will be the a much better unit than KC has had since Reid arrived and since Mahomes has started.  This matters in the case that KC struggled badly to gain rushing yards on 3rd and short, or goal to go.  Defenses understood this and didn't have to alter much of their d in short yardage....which resulted in KC either running and being stopped on 3rd and short...OR...without the D having to worry about the run....being aligned to defend the short passing game, wich KC resorted to OFTEN because they couldn't expect success running in these situations.  Not being a threat to run, has hurt the O overall as we miss on conversions, and we get jammed up in the Red Zone and at the Goal line for the same reasons...teams sell out to defend the pass because KC couldn't mount any threat at all to gain yards on the ground.  

 

If the line proves to be as adverstised, you will see CEH line up and pick up those yards....and if he is trusted to pass block and run routes...he'll be a big passing game threat as well.....as he was advertised to be.  If you don't see a dynmaic CEH with this line....then call him a bust.  He'll have every shot to succeed this year.

 

 

 

 

[Putin]

3 hours ago, Zerovoltz said:

@Hapless Bills Fan and others -

 

I can't speak for others, commentators etc...but here are my thoughts on this.

 

CEH didn't have a great season.  He was underwhelming, and perhaps most disappointing was his lack of presence in our passing game.  

 

I'd say, he had a few moments where you could see talent........specifically, if he got moving in some space, he could juke well and break tackles. 

 

I do think that CEH was hurt more than most by having no camp etc last year.  They didn't trust him in the pass/pass blocking game at all.  he was a non factor.  When it mattered, Darrell Williams was on the field.  

 

I think I share the opinion of many KC fans, that CEH, given a full camp, and especially given the revamped line....will have a much better year and look more like a guy who was taken in round 1 and the first RB off the board in his class.  He did NOT look like that last year, but he did have moments where you could see "it".

 

I saw some chatter here about Oline.....and I'd like to bring up again, without trying to sound too much like a KC Homer....that the O line changes are going to be of a huge impact to the KC offense.

 

Just an overview of what to expect, and how that relates to CEH ---->  As mentioned here in other posts, KC is going to likely have 5 new starting O linemen, and the expectation is, this will be the a much better unit than KC has had since Reid arrived and since Mahomes has started.  This matters in the case that KC struggled badly to gain rushing yards on 3rd and short, or goal to go.  Defenses understood this and didn't have to alter much of their d in short yardage....which resulted in KC either running and being stopped on 3rd and short...OR...without the D having to worry about the run....being aligned to defend the short passing game, wich KC resorted to OFTEN because they couldn't expect success running in these situations.  Not being a threat to run, has hurt the O overall as we miss on conversions, and we get jammed up in the Red Zone and at the Goal line for the same reasons...teams sell out to defend the pass because KC couldn't mount any threat at all to gain yards on the ground.  

 

If the line proves to be as adverstised, you will see CEH line up and pick up those yards....and if he is trusted to pass block and run routes...he'll be a big passing game threat as well.....as he was advertised to be.  If you don't see a dynmaic CEH with this line....then call him a bust.  He'll have every shot to succeed this year.

 

 

 

 

I didn’t read any of it and I hope Chiefs suck 

[RyanC883]

On 7/9/2021 at 7:18 PM, Putin said:

I didn’t read any of it and I hope Chiefs suck 

 

I read it, agreed with most of it, but also hope KC sucks.  

Edited July 13, 2021 by RyanC883

[Big Blitz]

23 hours ago, ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin said:

 

C will become a glaring need when MM has another concussion. (not if, but when)

OG has been a glaring need since the switch from power to zone blocking. (hole now)

 

Breida will do well here as a zone run RB.

 

Buffalo failed even when OC #1 and OG #1 and OG #2 were available in round 2 and/or round 3 in the last draft.

You protect the franchise at all costs. (FAIL)

KC and BAL did though, they took OC #1 (2nd round #32) and OG #2 (2nd round #34) 2 picks and one pick after ours.

 

This is why we can't have nice things.

We took 2 DE in a weak DE class, and 2 OT projects when we needed IOL...

At best 2 of these top 4 picks will see starting time as regulars over the next 5 years.

 

2 of 3 players noted (Humphrey/ Davis/ Cleveland) that Buffalo passed on will be starters and pro-bowlers/ all pros, and we will regret this draft.

 

 

Don't disagree with this.  Except that they clearly like the Oline group they have.  That's all I can say regarding the decision to pass on a IOL early in the draft - which I thought they'd do.

 

Or a CB.  But they like what they have.  Can't argue with what they've done on O or D except the area where they decided to go all in.

 

I think a lot of things changed when we didn't get Watt.  Did they over Compensate?  I don't know but if those 2 rookies aren't helping in year 1 and if AJ and Oliver don't take big leaps we're going to be in trouble on that D line.  And that's going to make the path to a SB difficult.  You have to be able to get home rushing 4 far more then we do.  Especially against this QB rich AFC.  And that's why I think they decided "we have to load up on that line - if the prospects are worth the pick (value)."  

 

And D line was the biggest weakness on the team IMO going into this off season.  Where would we be or what would we be thinking about the DL right now if the only "addition" was Star?

Edited July 10, 2021 by Big Blitz