Buzzergate update (Again) Update: Beltran, Cora, Hinch & Luhnow (fired) for illegale sign stealing - compare to NFL & The Patsies

[Reed83HOF]

3 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

All im saying is - the astro's had and continue to have a lethal lineup.  Breg, Altuve, Correa, Springer - its hard to believe that this props them up like massive amounts.  I don't feel like digging through all their splits to see if home/away over the years is that big of a discrepancy.  Maybe i will before fantasy baseball season to see if its worth knocking them down a peg, but i doubt it.  

 

Google was pretty quick to turn it up 

 

https://www.12up.com/posts/astros-home-vs-road-splits-from-2017-playoffs-suggest-evidence-of-sign-stealing-01dsjze4xax2

 

https://www.barstoolsports.com/newyork/the-houston-astros-homeroad-splits-during-the-2017-postseason-are-laugh-out-loud-funny-and-you-might-need-to-take-away-their-title

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2020 by Reed83HOF

[apuszczalowski]

2 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

All im saying is - the astro's had and continue to have a lethal lineup.  Breg, Altuve, Correa, Springer - its hard to believe that this props them up like massive amounts.  I don't feel like digging through all their splits to see if home/away over the years is that big of a discrepancy.  Maybe i will before fantasy baseball season to see if its worth knocking them down a peg, but i doubt it.  

This is what I find the worst/dumbest thing about these situations, when you see teams or players cheat when they really don't have to. The Astros have a really good team that shouldn't need an added advantage, but they do it to get that extra advantage, and accept it as a cost of winning if they get caught after a championship. No one can take away the past, you can put all the asterisks next to their names or erase the history books, but the players, fans and organisations at that time all got to celebrate and be champions for that time.

[Roger Goodell]

In response to the revelation of Alex Cora's involvement in the Houston Astros' scandal in Major League Baseball, the NFL has awarded the New England Patriots a 4th round compensatory selection in the 2020 NFL Draft.

[Don Otreply]

This is huge part of why Major league Baseball is a classier than Football .  At least MLB has the balls to suspend coaches/ FO personnel  for a year for cheating, and has at least one owner who won’t put up with low life’s running his team.  NFL management is testicle free zone. This alone makes me want to watch more baseball. If the NFL was able to be embarrassed they would be now.

 

this is a potential marketing bonanza for baseball to gain more fans,

“We take action when we catch cheaters” 

[JGMcD2]

20 minutes ago, eanyills said:

If we’re making disingenuous comparisons across corporations that couldn’t be more different other than that they’re both entertainment industries, let’s not forget that MLB ignored a decade long scandal that almost crippled its business and handled the fallout of damage control in one of the worst possible ways.

 

MLB isn’t a model for the NFL.

Major League Baseball was also the first league to have to really address PED because they were being used in all sports.

 

It is a well known fact that Major League Baseball has served as the model for all four major sports here because of numerous factors such as it’s longevity but it’s also been the sport that commonly takes on divisive issues head on. If they’re not the first to address certain issues, they’re typically the first to get things right (I.e. domestic abuse). 

[cgg716]

Count me in the minority I guess, I’m no HOU fan, but think this is overdone 

[Beast]

3 minutes ago, cgg716 said:

Count me in the minority I guess, I’m no HOU fan, but think this is overdone 

How so?

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, Binghamton Beast said:

MLB doesn’t ***** around when it comes to breaking rules that concern the integrity of the game.

 

In fact, both are probably lucky they didn’t get banned from the game.

Who would hire these guys? They are permanently tainted, no owner in their right mind will hire these guys, their careers are over in MLB. 

At least one would think as much.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Don Otreply

[Beast]

Just now, Don Otreply said:

Who would hire these guys? They are permanently tainted, no owner in their right mind will hire these guys, their careers are over in MLB. 

At least one would think as muc.

True.

[dpberr]

MLB is serious when they make the Astros forfeit the 2017 title.  That sends the real message.  You cheat, you lose everything.

 

Otherwise, it's just three dudes who will never be in the MLB ever again.  

 

 

 

 

[cgg716]

Just now, Binghamton Beast said:

How so?

Everyone steals signs, everyone always has, MLB basically just suspended people for being too good at something they’ve allowed for ages. And equally importantly something they can not and will not stop going forward 

[Reed83HOF]

[Don Otreply]

5 minutes ago, cgg716 said:

Count me in the minority I guess, I’m no HOU fan, but think this is overdone 

Cheating and cheaters always needs to be punished severely, it then becomes a deterrent, otherwise you are saying it’s okay to cheat at everything, that attitude is what breaks down entire societies. Those that condone cheating are in turn the same as those that cheat. 

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Red Sox are next.?

 

Cora should get a double dose.

https://www.thebiglead.com/posts/alex-cora-is-totally-utterly-and-completely-screwed-01dyg4xm8554

44 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said:

Maybe, maybe not. They might be able to go after Cora, but they would need to prove the Red Sox had something similar going on to come down on them

Oh, they'll definitely be able to do that. https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28440015/report-red-sox-used-replay-room-steal-signs-2018-season

[Don Otreply]

6 minutes ago, dpberr said:

MLB is serious when they make the Astros forfeit the 2017 title.  That sends the real message.  You cheat, you lose everything.

 

Otherwise, it's just three dudes who will never be in the MLB ever again.  

 

 

 

 

They should have their World Series win revoked, I agree.

[cgg716]

2 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

Cheating and cheaters always needs to be punished severely, it then becomes a deterrent, otherwise you are saying it’s okay to cheat at everything, that attitude is what breaks down entire societies. Those that condone cheating are in turn the same as those that cheat. 

But punishing it selectively isn’t a deterrent 

[Chaos]

7 minutes ago, cgg716 said:

Everyone steals signs, everyone always has, MLB basically just suspended people for being too good at something they’ve allowed for ages. And equally importantly something they can not and will not stop going forward 

no. it was the use of technology to do the stealing. 

[Don Otreply]

1 minute ago, cgg716 said:

But punishing it selectively isn’t a deterrent 

 

1 minute ago, cgg716 said:

But punishing it selectively isn’t a deterrent 

But not punishing it ever is?

Edited January 13, 2020 by Don Otreply

[dave mcbride]

44 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said:

That's one player from decades ago, who has had chances to be let back in if he would admit to it and apologize IIRC and he has refused to do so, then he also had an issue not to long ago come out regarding and underage girl IIRC. And he played for the Reds, also not one of the league's premier franchises.....

The Reds were absolutely one of baseball's premier franchises in their glory era that stretched from 1961-1990 (and Rose was banned in the 1980s). In those 30 years, they had 24 winning seasons and 6 losing seasons; 5 WS appearances, and a bunch of additional playoff appearances. (Infamously, they had the best record in baseball in the strike year of 1981 but didn't make the playoffs.) The Big Red Machine is one of the most legendary units in modern MLB history.  

Edited January 13, 2020 by dave mcbride

[cgg716]

1 minute ago, Don Otreply said:

 

But not punishing it ever is?

You believe deterrence is the goal... I’d contend it’s PR and in turn disingenuous 

[Lurker]

What is this thing called 'baseball?'  

[dave mcbride]

4 minutes ago, cgg716 said:

But punishing it selectively isn’t a deterrent 

How has MLB been selective about this? There are two teams for which they have actual evidence (rather than hearsay) - the Astros and Red Sox.

[Don Otreply]

Just now, cgg716 said:

You believe deterrence is the goal... I’d contend it’s PR and in turn disingenuous 

You come across as one who dances around the issue then condones it.

[dave mcbride]

Just now, Don Otreply said:

You come across as one who dances around the issue then condones it.

He's not even right about the selectivity.

[Tenhigh]

2 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

You come across as one who dances around the issue then condones it.

That or he is a closet Astros fan 

[Reed83HOF]

9 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

https://www.thebiglead.com/posts/alex-cora-is-totally-utterly-and-completely-screwed-01dyg4xm8554

Oh, they'll definitely be able to do that. https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28440015/report-red-sox-used-replay-room-steal-signs-2018-season

 

The strangest sentence to read in the article was this:

"Then he left to take over his own team, brought the underhanded tactics he learned in Houston to Boston, and won another World Series."

 

For some reason I still read Superbowl instead of World Series 

[cgg716]

Just now, Don Otreply said:

You come across as one who dances around the issue then condones it.

The contention is simple, I don’t condone it. I’m mearly stating they allowed it, all teams have stolen signs, since forever, and MLB has basically said, hey Houston, you were really good at this thing we allowed, pay for it. Did the same with steroids 

[Don Otreply]

1 minute ago, cgg716 said:

The contention is simple, I don’t condone it. I’m mearly stating they allowed it, all teams have stolen signs, since forever, and MLB has basically said, hey Houston, you were really good at this thing we allowed, pay for it. Did the same with steroids 

Your verbiage says you condone it.

[/dev/null]

I'm not a baseball guy, but from an outsider this looks like it's on the shady scale somewhere below Belichek but above Clinton

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, cgg716 said:

The contention is simple, I don’t condone it. I’m mearly stating they allowed it, all teams have stolen signs, since forever, and MLB has basically said, hey Houston, you were really good at this thing we allowed, pay for it. Did the same with steroids 

No, it's actually ok for baserunners to steal signs. You simply can't use technology to do it. It's clear cut, and the Astros and Red Sox are the only teams who have been caught. 

[CoudyBills]

1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

 

Also the Red Sux Maganer Cora is in deeeeep crapola

 

 

So compare Manfred to Goddell and how MLB vs the NFL handle cheating scandals?

Well, one is trying to keep a beautiful game.  The other is the WWE and they are proud of it.  

[BuffaloRebound]

Goodell is essentially like the head of the NCAA.  The owners in the NFL are a cartel like the big sports factory Universities and when they tell him to jump he jumps.  When people need someone to get mad at, Goodell and Emmert or whoever heads the NCAA now are essentially paid to take the heat.  That’s their job description.  Don’t rock the boat and take heat for the owners.  The NFL has gone downhill since the Jerry Jones’s and Kraft’s became the most powerful owners instead of Rooney and Mara.  

[cgg716]

2 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

Your verbiage says you condone it.

When we catch more successful teams in the next few seasons, it will make sense 

[Reed83HOF]

1 hour ago, Joe in Winslow said:

Goodell is a joke

 

and you could say Manfred's balls are...well...juiced

Edited January 13, 2020 by Reed83HOF

[Beast]

22 minutes ago, cgg716 said:

Everyone steals signs, everyone always has, MLB basically just suspended people for being too good at something they’ve allowed for ages. And equally importantly something they can not and will not stop going forward 

Stealing signs is fine. Everything that surrounded the stealing of those signs is NOT fine. Pretty easy to see, actually.

[Don Otreply]

3 minutes ago, cgg716 said:

When we catch more successful teams in the next few seasons, it will make sense 

Bigger picture...

[cgg716]

2 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

Bigger picture...

Exactly, when you allow the bigger picture and punish the side effect, I don’t like it 

[UConn James]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Red Sox are next.?

 

Cora should get a double dose.

I’m a Red Sox fan and I have to agree. If the reports are accurate that Cora instigated this setup in Houston and introduced whatever in Boston (there’s more investigation ongoing for that), I’d probably push for a 5-year ban. No wiggle room for this stuff. So disappointed in them / any manager or players that knew and used it and did nothing. ?

 

1 hour ago, wppete said:

Patriots and Bellicheck should get the same punishment. The Patriots have been cheating for years and have been caught at least 3 times!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

With the past history of videotaping, Goodell had better figuratively throw the book at the Pars* organization. If Belichick does not get at least a year suspension, it’s not justice. I don’t give a hoot if they can’t find anything that he ordered it. In the NCAA they call it “lack of institutional control” in punishments where the coach isn’t implicitly involved... but that s/he hadn’t done anything to ensure the kind of act didn’t happen. WRT Belichick et al and ?, there can be absolutely NO reason an employee can do this and BB sidesteps punishment.

Edited January 13, 2020 by UConn James

[Beast]

1 minute ago, UConn James said:

I’m a Red Sox fan and I have to agree. If the reports are accurate that Cora instigated this setup in Houston and introduced whatever in Boston (there’s more investigation ongoing for that), I’d probably push for a 5-year ban. No wiggle room for this stuff.

 

 

With the past history of videotaping, Goodell had better figuratively throw the book at the Pars* organization. If Belichick does not get at least a year suspension, it’s not justice. I don’t give a hoot if they can’t find anything that he ordered it. In the NCAA they call it “lack of institutional control” in punishments where the coach isn’t implicitly involved... but that s/he hadn’t done anything to ensure the kind of act didn’t happen. WRT Belichick et al and ?, there can be absolutely NO reason an employee can do this and BB sidesteps punishment.

Every coach on staff, the GM, assistant GM, pro scouts, etc., should be dismissed from the Patriots if the videotaping allegations are true.

 

Enough is enough.

[Mr. WEO]

50 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

Major League Baseball was also the first league to have to really address PED because they were being used in all sports.

 

It is a well known fact that Major League Baseball has served as the model for all four major sports here because of numerous factors such as it’s longevity but it’s also been the sport that commonly takes on divisive issues head on. If they’re not the first to address certain issues, they’re typically the first to get things right (I.e. domestic abuse). 

 

 

Say what?

 

NFL started testing in '87 and suspending in'89.

 

MLB put out a memo in '90 saying steroids were "strictly prohibited".   Then the rest of the 90's happened and it was obvious to every viewer the world over for YEARS that juicing was going on.  In '96 17 players hit 40 or more HRs.  MLB's response....another memo!  This one again reminded players and clubs to discourage the use of "illegal" substances.

 

'97 and McGuire hit 70.  He was found to have the steroids at his locker during the season---still nothing.

 

'99 Sosa and McGuire hot over 60.

 

What did MLB do next?  Nothing!  but 2 years later they figured they might have to do....something.  So they started random testing and penalties.....for the minor leagues only!  Same year, '01, Bonds breaks the HR record.

 

Finally, after Ken Caminiti spoke to SI and the story blew the lid off, MLB started the lamest of testing schedules....and no penalty for first time offenders!  The BALCO and 2004 came penalties for first time offenders.

 

 

So, nearly 20 years after the NFL at least started to test.  The MLB had to be pulled kicking and screaming into the acknowledgement that their lead was completely penetrated with PEDS for at least a dozens years.

 

That's some "model" for other leagues.