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Lieutenant Aldo Raine

John Brown failure to toe drag

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47 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

We don't NEED better receivers per se any more than we need a better QB.  What we need are a few less mistakes per game and we got that most of the season and then in the playoff game we had more mistakes than usual (offense and defense) and it bit us in the a#@.  We need Allen and the WR's to be a little more surgical and hopefully that is just a matter of time.  We need the OL  and RB's to get better at blocking things up and Allen at recognizing pressure pre snap.  There is no reason to think that the exact same unit we fielded this year couldn't put up more points next year just by Allen having another years experience. 

 

Well, I disagree.  It's possible our WR can take a step, but all year people say "Allen struggles against man coverage".   Allen doesn't struggle against man coverage, our smurf WR do.  McDermott said it about Beasley "they did some things that took him away".  We need some WR that can't be taken away so readily.

 

John Brown struggles to make the tough catches - we saw that in Cleveland, against the Ravens, and yesterday.  I feel it's an analogous situation to 2010 where Stevie Johnson came on with Fitz and was a 1000+ yd receiver kind of because there was basically no one else.

 

We badly need a QB who plays better, and it's reasonable to think he may take a step because he did between year 1 and 2, many QB do between year 2 and 3.  He's young, he came in super-raw, and he's reputed to have a tremendous work ethic.

 

We need WR who play better - who can make contested and difficult "toe tap" catches and not get taken away by man coverage.  Brown is a 6 year vet and Beasley an  8 year vet.  That is reason to believe that they "are what they are" and are not going to suddenly become "more surgical" or anything else we didn't see this year.

 

It's very possible that Duke may take a step.  It's his first year in the NFL and he made big improvements between his first and second year in the CFL.  He expressed determination to work with John Brown this off season and come back more polished as a route runner and faster, both of which are able to be achieved.  

 

Ditto for Knox.

 

But I don't want to see the Bills counting on those steps.  I want us to have alternatives.  I'm pretty sure that's where Beane is.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Ramza86 said:

He just wasnt aware on that play. 

Ugly play to watch...but everyone has an ugly play or two a game.

 

An ugly play or two every season, sure.

Every game?  I think, not good enough.

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1 hour ago, GG said:

 

I'd say that he's an inconsistently good runner, as evidenced by the last play in Balt.

 

We can apply many subjective characteristics to what a #1 WR is, but the simplest one is the team's approach to the position in the offseason.  If you take a look at any offseason wish lists for the Bills, upgrading the WR position is priority #1 or # 2 on each one.  That indicates that your current #1 WR is really a true #1 .

He was facing a corner that was without question a top 5 CB in 2019 on that play. Other guys make plays too. 

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Posted (edited)
Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, I disagree.  It's possible our WR can take a step, but all year people say "Allen struggles against man coverage".   Allen doesn't struggle against man coverage, our smurf WR do.  McDermott said it about Beasley "they did some things that took him away".  We need some WR that can't be taken away so readily.

 

John Brown struggles to make the tough catches - we saw that in Cleveland, against the Ravens, and yesterday.  I feel it's an analogous situation to 2010 where Stevie Johnson came on with Fitz and was a 1000+ yd receiver kind of because there was basically no one else.

 

We badly need a QB who plays better, and it's reasonable to think he may take a step because he did between year 1 and 2, many QB do between year 2 and 3.  He's young, he came in super-raw, and he's reputed to have a tremendous work ethic.

 

We need WR who play better - who can make contested and difficult "toe tap" catches and not get taken away by man coverage.  Brown is a 6 year vet and Beasley an  8 year vet.  That is reason to believe that they "are what they are" and are not going to suddenly become "more surgical" or anything else we didn't see this year.

 

It's very possible that Duke may take a step.  It's his first year in the NFL and he made big improvements between his first and second year in the CFL.  He expressed determination to work with John Brown this off season and come back more polished as a route runner and faster, both of which are able to be achieved.  

 

Ditto for Knox.

 

But I don't want to see the Bills counting on those steps.  I want us to have alternatives.  I'm pretty sure that's where Beane is.

 

 

 

An ugly play or two every season, sure.

Every game?  I think, not good enough.

 

Your expectations are too high. Youre pretty much going to get one or two ugly plays from every player in the NFL every game.

Edited by Ramza86

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2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

He was facing a corner that was without question a top 5 CB in 2019 on that play. Other guys make plays too. 

 

Which makes it more imperative to run a better route than the lazy stutter step.

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11 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

He's a good receiver, not a #1. Your #1 knows how to make that catch.

The moment that play happened I was shocked he didn't have the awareness of the sideline. That catch and ultimately a TD there changes everything in that game.  

 

Brown can be a great # 2 though. He's a helluva WR , can run all the routes , go get an elite # 1 with him and Beez in the slot , Knox at TE and Motor in the backfield and we got some firepower on O. 

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42 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

All these threads about specific plays is kind of what we do here: we discuss football.


I understand and agree with that but thread after thread about specific plays belies the fact that is was a failure from top to bottom as opposed to one simple failure. 

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1 minute ago, Ramza86 said:

Your expectations are too high. Youre pretty much going to get one or two ugly plays from every player in the NFL every game.

 

I'd like to see you defend this claim with evidence.
Here's a list of the top 16 WR on yards in the NFL this year.  Can you describe some of those 1-2 ugly plays per game from each of them?

image.thumb.png.6950a0b8d7a892450fd2dee391c9be27.png

 

 

Just now, TroutDog said:

I understand and agree with that but thread after thread about specific plays belies the fact that is was a failure from top to bottom as opposed to one simple failure. 

 

If your argument is "plenty of blame to go around", I can not disagree

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1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

If your argument is "plenty of blame to go around", I can not disagree


That’s exactly what my initial post said. 

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2 minutes ago, TroutDog said:

That’s exactly what my initial post said. 

 

I was focused on the "all these threads about specific plays is kind of sad" aspect.

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Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'd like to see you defend this claim with evidence.
Here's a list of the top 16 WR on yards in the NFL this year.  Can you describe some of those 1-2 ugly plays per game from each of them?

image.thumb.png.6950a0b8d7a892450fd2dee391c9be27.png

 

 

 

If your argument is "plenty of blame to go around", I can not disagree

 

I dont have to defend it. I already know it, why would I take the time to convince you?

 

If you dont believe me then look it up yourself.

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3 minutes ago, Ramza86 said:

I dont have to defend it. I already know it, why would I take the time to convince you?

 

Oh, I dunno - maybe because you're posting on a public message board therefore presumably have some interest in being believed outside of your own skin?

I mean, if you don't have such interest, why even post then?

 

We'll take that as a baseless assertion with no evidence to back it up.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I was focused on the "all these threads about specific plays is kind of sad" aspect.


I guess my point was that it would be more interesting (at least for me) to discuss how we collapsed in the manner we did. I didn’t see it driven by a specific play and, to be honest, wouldn’t know how to start an intelligent thread on it...other than it was maddening and frustrating  to watch. 
 

Loving this team the way we all do, it was such a massive letdown and the team and us, as fans, deserved a hell of a lot more.

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Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh, I dunno - maybe because you're posting on a public message board therefore presumably have some interest in being believed outside of your own skin?

I mean, if you don't have such interest, why even post then?

 

We'll take that as a baseless assertion with no evidence to back it up.

 

 

 

Im not trying to convince anyone. I made a statement. 

 

If you dont believe it you are more than welcome to look it up. 

 

Thats usually what I do when I find something hard to believe. 

 

Lazy boy.

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The jump makes no sense there.  Maybe he thought it was going to be behind him and jumped to try and pull it down and land on his back but it screwed up his space along the sideline.  Another crucial mistake in a game full of them.

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He definitely mistimed that throw.. His feet left the ground before the ball got there.  Should of been a fairly routine sideline toe tap for an NFL receiver 

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10 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

Great receivers make mistakes sometimes. Same with playmakers, even at key moments. It has to do with being human beings. It doesn't happen a lot, but it happens.

 

John Brown is both a great receiver and a playmaker. But yeah, this was a mistake.

 

He's a #1 receiver. He was 21st in yardage and tied for 24th in TDs despite the fact that they rested him the last week of the season, and he played on a team that threw the 24th most passes in the league, putting them in the bottom nine of the league. He's a #1. No, he's not a "true #1," but there are only about 6 or 7 of those guys in the league anyway.

 

Yes, we need to upgrade the #3 receiver position on this team. No, Brown is not the problem in any way.

 

He's a #1, but not a true #1?  What does that even mean?

 

A #1 is a guy who can dominate his match up and take over a game.  John Brown is very good, but he doesn't do that. 

 

He's a very good #2, and that's not a knock.  New England's passing game struggled without Gronk because they don't have a number 1 WR either.  Edelman is in the John Brown group. 

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43 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Which makes it more imperative to run a better route than the lazy stutter step.

Like I said, good players make plays. Peters made one. He's a better player than Brown, although Brown is good too.

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57 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, I disagree.  It's possible our WR can take a step, but all year people say "Allen struggles against man coverage".   Allen doesn't struggle against man coverage, our smurf WR do.  McDermott said it about Beasley "they did some things that took him away".  We need some WR that can't be taken away so readily.

 

John Brown struggles to make the tough catches - we saw that in Cleveland, against the Ravens, and yesterday.  I feel it's an analogous situation to 2010 where Stevie Johnson came on with Fitz and was a 1000+ yd receiver kind of because there was basically no one else.

 

We badly need a QB who plays better, and it's reasonable to think he may take a step because he did between year 1 and 2, many QB do between year 2 and 3.  He's young, he came in super-raw, and he's reputed to have a tremendous work ethic.

 

We need WR who play better - who can make contested and difficult "toe tap" catches and not get taken away by man coverage.  Brown is a 6 year vet and Beasley an  8 year vet.  That is reason to believe that they "are what they are" and are not going to suddenly become "more surgical" or anything else we didn't see this year.

 

It's very possible that Duke may take a step.  It's his first year in the NFL and he made big improvements between his first and second year in the CFL.  He expressed determination to work with John Brown this off season and come back more polished as a route runner and faster, both of which are able to be achieved.  

 

Ditto for Knox.

 

But I don't want to see the Bills counting on those steps.  I want us to have alternatives.  I'm pretty sure that's where Beane is.

 

 

 

An ugly play or two every season, sure.

Every game?  I think, not good enough.

 

John Brown and Cole Beasley had career years in 2019.  I don't expect more out of them. To be fair both lived up to what I though they could bring 110%  .  I didn't believe John Brown could stay healthy for 16 games and certainly not with the volume he handled.   Neither of those guys is much more than a competent NFL wr . Bills need a difference maker  A player that can overcome tight coverage/win 50/50 throws/shuck press immediately make some plays most player cannot.  Asking Josh Allen to turn those guys into Jerry Rice and Steve Largent seems like a ridiculous proposition.  I'm pretty certain Brandon Beane knows it.

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1 minute ago, DuckyBoys said:

John Brown and Cole Beasley had career years in 2019.  I don't expect more out of them. To be fair both lived up to what I though they could bring 110%  .  I didn't believe John Brown could stay healthy for 16 games and certainly not with the volume he handled.   Neither of those guys is much more than a competent NFL wr . Bills need a difference maker  A player that can overcome tight coverage/win 50/50 throws/shuck press immediately make some plays most player cannot.  Asking Josh Allen to turn those guys into Jerry Rice and Steve Largent seems like a ridiculous proposition.  I'm pretty certain Brandon Beane knows it.

 

We're in complete agreement on your conclusion.  The Bills need a difference maker at WR or TE.  I would call Beasley and Brown both very good WR, but neither are difference makers.

 

One can make an argument on John Brown for career year, but I think it's important to note he had close to as much production in 2015 as a #2. 

Cole Beasley arguably had a better year in 2016 in Dallas - more yards, more YPG, more yards/target. 

 

Beasley didn't mention plans to work with Josh off season and neither did Brown - Beasley has property in Texas and Brown has a home (I think) in Florida.  But I hope they will.  In particular, it could be seen in training camp that Beasley was determined to persuade Josh to throw with more touch and anticipation, and succeeded in a TC/practice situation.  I'm sure Josh will continue to work on that but it would also help a lot (even if he doesn't train with Josh) if Beasley would set his Juggs machine on "stun" and just accept that under pressure Josh is gonna gun it at times, and he has to up his bullet-handling game if he can. 

 

I do wonder if either of them see opportunities to become stronger and more physical to break free of press coverage, and will work on that.

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27 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Like I said, good players make plays. Peters made one. He's a better player than Brown, although Brown is good too.

Peters was beat by the Allen perfect throw which is a TD with a normal toe drag WR.

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Oh cool!  Today we are bashing JB?  Awesome. Who’s tomorrow?  

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1 minute ago, cba fan said:

Peters was beat by the Allen perfect throw which is a TD with a normal toe drag WR.

Elite corners have catch-up speed. Peters has it. There is a reason why Peters, a genuinely bad person, went in the first round despite his many transgressions and remains coveted by good teams trying to win a Super Bowl despite the aura of bad vibes that always surrounds him. Good players make plays, and he's as good as anyone, talent-wise.  

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1 hour ago, Ramza86 said:

Im not trying to convince anyone. I made a statement. 

 

You made a statement on a message board.  That is prima face evidence you're trying to persuade someone, or just stay home and talk to yourself.

 

1 hour ago, Ramza86 said:

If you dont believe it you are more than welcome to look it up. Thats usually what I do when I find something hard to believe. 

 

You just tell me where you looked up that 1-2 bad play per game by every player stat - provide a link or a source - and I'll do just that.

I'll use my Crystal Ball here: you won't, because you can't.

 

1 hour ago, Ramza86 said:

Lazy boy.

 

@Chandler#81 has a gift for predicting how things will work out.  He has just telepathically shared his gift with me.

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13 hours ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

So I’m rewatching the game, and John Brown should have played that reception better.  Could Allen have thrown it a tad sooner, sure. However, Brown took his feet off the ground when I don’t think he really needed to.  Would have been First and Goal at the 3 yd line.

 

 

365262A3-86FC-47EA-B351-1C628D798D54.jpeg

Clearly John Brown INTENDED to get his feet down.  And just like in the fair catch that wasn't thread, intentions are what matters, according some posters  

 

Shoulda been ruled a catch anyways, by those standards.

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