Allen or Watson ( Who would you rather have leading your team Saturday)

[NoSaint]

23 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

Allen was 24/46 for 264 with a 5.7 average 0 TDs and a 69.5 rating against one of the worst pass defenses in the NFL. 
Watson was 20/25 for 247 with a 9.9 average, 1 TD and a 121.2 rating against one of the best pass defenses in the NFL. 
Is this thread still a thing?

Majbobby would call those very similar. Allen more completions and yards, and only 1 less TD!

[JaCrispy]

17 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

We had him on the ropes. I always liked Watson, and he definitely has intangibles, but I still like Allen's ceiling more. Watson has incredible weapons to throw to. We should've won. 

Ceiling? What does that even mean? Ceiling is nothing more than a hypothetical...what did people think Tom Brady’s ceiling was when he came out? It’s a word that everyone throws around but means absolutely nothing...all ceiling is is whatever you want it to be...

[ToGoGo]

Just now, JaCrispy said:

Ceiling? What does that even mean? Ceiling is nothing more than a hypothetical...what did people think Tom Brady’s ceiling was when he came out? It’s a word that everyone throws around but means absolutely nothing...all ceiling is is whatever you want it to be...

 

Couldn't disagree more.

 

Brady was an outlier, and with some shady stuff around it too I might add. 

[JaCrispy]

2 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

 

Couldn't disagree more.

 

Brady was an outlier, and with some shady stuff around it too I might add. 

Then what and who determines one’s ceiling? It’s completely subjective...there were people thought Josh was a bust...clearly they didn’t think his ceiling was high...who’s the judge?

Edited January 5, 2020 by JaCrispy

[ToGoGo]

1 minute ago, JaCrispy said:

Then what and who determines one’s ceiling? It’s completely subjective...there were people thought Josh was a bust...clearly they didn’t think his ceiling was high...who’s the judge?

 

If you're looking for an objective answer to a subjective concept, that's what I call a dead end. 

[jrober38]

19 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Not sure by 30.... but I agree we swap the QBs and the Bills definitely win. 

 

Deshaun Watson is a star in the NFL.

 

Swap him with a below average QB like Allen and win in a blowout. 

[JaCrispy]

1 minute ago, ToGoGo said:

 

If you're looking for an objective answer to a subjective concept, that's what I call a dead end. 

Thank you for making my point...

[BringBackOrton]

13 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

Majbobby would call those very similar. Allen more completions and yards, and only 1 less TD!

Passer rating is biased!

[ToGoGo]

1 minute ago, JaCrispy said:

Thank you for making my point...

 

What are you arguing? I said that I thought his ceiling was higher than Watson's. That is my subjective opinion that started this debate. 

[JaCrispy]

4 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

 

What are you arguing? I said that I thought his ceiling was higher than Watson's. That is my subjective opinion that started this debate. 

And my point was that it means nothing...I could say I think Matt Barkley’s ceiling is higher than Watson’s...who cares??

 

Josh Allen might never get any better the rest of his career...who cares what anyone thinks of his hypothetical ceiling...it’s all about how good you are now...

 

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by JaCrispy

[ToGoGo]

4 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

And my point was that it means nothing...I could say I think Matt Barkley’s ceiling is higher than Watson’s...who cares??

 

Josh Allen might never get any better the rest of his career...who cares what anyone thinks of his hypothetical ceiling...it’s all about how good you are now...

 

 

 

Are you saying that I should keep my subjective opinion to myself because "who cares"? 

 

Whatever man, I don't think you even know the purpose of what you're saying. 

[Warren Zevon]

I'm convinced this insane homer thread jinxed us.

[HomeskillitMoorman]

As they say...this thread did not age well. 

[Jaywrizzo]

12 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/passing_advanced.htm

 

There’s a fair bit that you’re leaving out:

 

That apparently huge difference between 9 and 20 in on-target percentage amounts to 3%. Not exactly the chasm you’re implying.

 

Same goes for bad throw percentage; the difference is 4%.

 

The difference in CAY/PA is half a yard.

 

Now for the stuff that you didn’t mention:

 

Allen suffered a drop rate of 7.2%—highest in the NFL. Watson’s was 4.4%. WR play matters.
 

Both QBs faced the same number of hurried despite Watson having more attempts; Allen was also hit 4 more times. OL play matters.

 

Even though their respective efficiencies on RPOs are very similar, Josh had less than half of Watson’s combined run/pass attempts from RPO plays. Play calling matters.

I find it rather interesting that you left out a significant measure of context after calling me out for cherry picking/obfuscating (actually it was for being “strawmanny” earlier in this thread (and it was in a different thread).

His NFL track record?

 

Not really. He has one playoff win over the Connor Cook lead Raiders.

 

I like Watson, but let’s be accurate.

Haha....Yeah, its time to rethink that one.....its not even close....Allen made bad play after bad play.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, Jaywrizzo said:

Haha....Yeah, its time to rethink that one.....its not even close....Allen made bad play after bad play.

 

Until he didn't and kept us in the game.

 

[JaCrispy]

11 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

 

Are you saying that I should keep my subjective opinion to myself because "who cares"? 

 

Whatever man, I don't think you even know the purpose of what you're saying. 

You’re probably right...In that case, I think Allen’s ceiling is higher than Mahomes...carry on ?

Edited January 5, 2020 by JaCrispy

[NoSaint]

3 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Until he didn't and kept us in the game.

 

don’t go down with the ship on defending Allen’s second half. 
 

plenty of promising items from the season to latch onto if you want to but that’s 20 or so minutes you box up, bury and pretend never happened.

 

[The Frankish Reich]

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

Allen was 24/46 for 264 with a 5.7 average 0 TDs and a 69.5 rating against one of the worst pass defenses in the NFL. 
Watson was 20/25 for 247 with a 9.9 average, 1 TD and a 121.2 rating against one of the best pass defenses in the NFL. 
Is this thread still a thing?

^This.

It isn't even a close call. Watson has now been a Top 10 QB in the NFL in each of his first 3 seasons. It doesn't matter if Allen has "potential." Watson is a winner, and he just won. Again.

[thebandit27]

1 hour ago, Jaywrizzo said:

Haha....Yeah, its time to rethink that one.....its not even close....Allen made bad play after bad play.

maybe it’s time to read the thread before you say silly things 

[CodeMonkey]

Watson proved today he is indeed the better QB.  Allen got very lucky and should have been intercepted at least twice, one for a pick 6.

Allen is a gamer who made many mistakes today.,  He'll learn, but he is what he is.

[unclepete]

How could any one seriously say Josh Allen?

[78thealltimegreat]

4 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

^This.

It isn't even a close call. Watson has now been a Top 10 QB in the NFL in each of his first 3 seasons. It doesn't matter if Allen has "potential." Watson is a winner, and he just won. Again.

Watson got shutout by the colts at home in the playoffs last year what’s your point ?

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Watson got shutout by the colts at home in the playoffs last year what’s your point ?

 

It was 21-7 actually but yes it is fair point. His stat line in that game was very similar to Josh's last night too:

 

Watson vs Colts 2018: 29/49 for 59% and 235 yards; 1 TD, 1 INT, 8 rushes for 76 yards. 

 

Allen vs Texans 2019: 24/46 for 52% and 264 yards; 9 rushes for 92 yards and 1 Fumble; 1 receiving TD. 

 

Watson clearly learnt from that and in a not dissimilar spot to last year, down at home, in a hole, his oline getting totally owned, he stepped up and took the game on his back in the 3rd and 4th Quarters and won the Texans the game. 

 

One hopes that we are back next year (going to be tougher I should warn people of that right now) and Allen is able to use the experience of yesterday to take another step. 

 

I began my contribution to this thread saying I felt Watson was clearly the better Quarterback even when you allow for his better weapons but it didn't always need to be that way. That is still the case. Josh still has the potential to get there. But he still has a long way to go.

[thebandit27]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It was 21-7 actually but yes it is fair point. His stat line in that game was very similar to Josh's last night too:

 

Watson vs Colts 2018: 29/49 for 59% and 235 yards; 1 TD, 1 INT, 8 rushes for 76 yards. 

 

Allen vs Texans 2019: 24/46 for 52% and 264 yards; 9 rushes for 92 yards and 1 Fumble; 1 receiving TD. 

 

Watson clearly learnt from that and in a not dissimilar spot to last year, down at home, in a hole, his oline getting totally owned, he stepped up and took the game on his back in the 3rd and 4th Quarters and won the Texans the game. 

 

One hopes that we are back next year (going to be tougher I should warn people of that right now) and Allen is able to use the experience of yesterday to take another step. 

 

I began my contribution to this thread saying I felt Watson was clearly the better Quarterback even when you allow for his better weapons but it didn't always need to be that way. That is still the case. Josh still has the potential to get there. But he still has a long way to go.

Yep. I trust that Josh learned a few things today. Namely that he can’t let the flow of a big game force him to try to make plays that aren’t there.

 

I similarity hope that the front office leaned that “good enough” at WR and TE simply isn’t good enough. You can’t have their WRs making big plays and ours failing to simply drag a foot that gives you a 1st and goal at the 3, dropping a TD pass that he’s got 2 hands on, or whiffing on a block in OT that easily sets up a GW FG.

[mannc]

8 hours ago, unclepete said:

How could any one seriously say Josh Allen?

Not a single person who’s not a rabid Bills fan would say Allen.  None.  Maybe in a year or two, but not now.  And it was proven on the field on Saturday.

[Jaywrizzo]

8 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

maybe it’s time to read the thread before you say silly things 

Maybe people should understand the game, before they come up with silly threads.

[thebandit27]

10 minutes ago, Jaywrizzo said:

Maybe people should understand the game, before they come up with silly threads.

Blame the OP then, don’t come at someone whose opinion you didn’t bother to read with a snarky response to a conversation in which you weren’t involved.

[Jaywrizzo]

3 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

Blame the OP then, don’t come at someone whose opinion you didn’t bother to read with a snarky response to a conversation in which you weren’t involved.

I read your post about how close they really are....Did it look close to you last night? Or did Allen in the 2nd half look like the player that others, who didn't like him coming out of College say he was...

[billsfan1959]

8 minutes ago, Jaywrizzo said:

I read your post about how close they really are....Did it look close to you last night? Or did Allen in the 2nd half look like the player that others, who didn't like him coming out of College say he was...

 

Somehow, I don't think you would be very open to the answer to your question.

[thebandit27]

18 minutes ago, Jaywrizzo said:

I read your post about how close they really are....Did it look close to you last night? Or did Allen in the 2nd half look like the player that others, who didn't like him coming out of College say he was...

Let’s see, both lead their teams to 19 regulation points. Both benefited from a turnover that resulted in a FG. Both made spectacular throws to RBs in overtime. Both made great plays with their legs in overtime that put the team in position to kick a GW FG (unfortunately Buffalo caught a penalty after a brutal missed block). Both threw for ~250 yards.

 

What was the biggest difference in the game? I’ll give you 2: timely penalties and plays made by WRs.

 

Oh, and I picked Watson just so you know. And yes, it’s a lot closer than people think.

[Jaywrizzo]

50 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

Let’s see, both lead their teams to 19 regulation points. Both benefited from a turnover that resulted in a FG. Both made spectacular throws to RBs in overtime. Both made great plays with their legs in overtime that put the team in position to kick a GW FG (unfortunately Buffalo caught a penalty after a brutal missed block). Both threw for ~250 yards.

 

What was the biggest difference in the game? I’ll give you 2: timely penalties and plays made by WRs.

 

Oh, and I picked Watson just so you know. And yes, it’s a lot closer than people think.

No...Its not close and putting your Wr in position to make plays also counts.....as far as that penalty...it was garbage. Josh taking bad sack after bad sack and fumbling away the ball makes a big difference in their games... Plays by Wr? Why did Josh not target the same wrs he's been relying on all season?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 hours ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

As they say...this thread did not age well. 

 

Do you think the result would have been different if the QBs just swapped teams?

[Jaywrizzo]

12 hours ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Until he didn't and kept us in the game.

 

Yeah...OK buddy....keep living with that.....how about not fumbling the ball or taking 2 bad sacks at the end of regulation....and getting lucky bcuz O'Brien made a dumb call in going for it on 4th down....U can call it, keeping us in the game if U like.

[thebandit27]

34 minutes ago, Jaywrizzo said:

No...Its not close and putting your Wr in position to make plays also counts.....as far as that penalty...it was garbage. Josh taking bad sack after bad sack and fumbling away the ball makes a big difference in their games... Plays by Wr? Why did Josh not target the same wrs he's been relying on all season?

So let me see if I get this: putting your WR in position to make a play also counts, but not if it’s John Brown failing to drag his foot at the 3, which could’ve set up a key TD, or Duke dropping a TD, or Duke dropping a first down in OT? Because those things all happened.

30 minutes ago, Jaywrizzo said:

Yeah...OK buddy....keep living with that.....how about not fumbling the ball or taking 2 bad sacks at the end of regulation....and getting lucky bcuz O'Brien made a dumb call in going for it on 4th down....U can call it, keeping us in the game if U like.

Did Watson get lucky because Daboll chose to run Frank Gore in key situations twice?

 

You really enjoy duplicitous analyses huh?

[jrober38]

10 hours ago, unclepete said:

How could any one seriously say Josh Allen?

 

This board is filled with homers who don't watch anyone but the Bills play football.

Two weeks ago, 8 people went on record saying they wouldn't take Lamar Jackson over Josh Allen. 

 

Totally insane. 

[kbarrettb]

52% completion in a playoff game isn’t gonna cut it. Not even close. Josh made so many mistakes running and throwing the ball. He single handedly is the reason they lost the game. 

[thebandit27]

7 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Watson made more plays down the stretch.... took the team on his back and while that broken sack was a bit of a fluke you got to give him credit for it. Just got to hope Allen and the offense take a big step next season. 

Agreed.

 

3 minutes ago, kbarrettb said:

52% completion in a playoff game isn’t gonna cut it. Not even close. Josh made so many mistakes running and throwing the ball. He single handedly is the reason they lost the game. 

 

Tell that to Tannehill, who went 8/15 for 72 yards in a win last night.

[Jaywrizzo]

11 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

So let me see if I get this: putting your WR in position to make a play also counts, but not if it’s John Brown failing to drag his foot at the 3, which could’ve set up a key TD, or Duke dropping a TD, or Duke dropping a first down in OT? Because those things all happened.

Did Watson get lucky because Daboll chose to run Frank Gore in key situations twice?

 

You really enjoy duplicitous analyses huh?

He sure did....and U know what else he did...he got hut by 2 defenders....gathered himself and threw a nice pass to a former Bill, we wouldn't even put on the field....what did Josh do in that situation...He made a great run and at the end, instead of going down.... HE TRIED TO PITCH THE BALL TO SOMEBODY ELSE....like in time was left on the clock.....but like you said.....Its close.....OK buddy!!!?

[kbarrettb]

1 minute ago, thebandit27 said:

Agreed.

 

 

Tell that to Tannehill, who went 8/15 for 72 yards in a win last night.

Even Tannehill had 53% completion. 

[JaCrispy]

8 minutes ago, kbarrettb said:

52% completion in a playoff game isn’t gonna cut it. Not even close. Josh made so many mistakes running and throwing the ball. He single handedly is the reason they lost the game. 

I’d like to add McD’s God awful game management...they both were well below mediocre imo...