Top 4 passing QB - No winning records

[ngbills]

Most if not all are not saying you you need 300 yards at all cost. If your offense is playing well and dominating the game then great whether you throw for 100 or 400 yards. The point was discussed more in that the Bills offense has struggled at times AND Allen was not putting up the yards. That is not the be all end all but is a concern. Especially in some games when he is throwing 40-50 times.

 

Luckily Daboll has seen the light as of late and realized Allen is not ready to be the 40-50 attempts for 300 yd QB and needs a more balanced approach to be successful. That is what many were clamoring for all along. Play to Allen strengths at this point in his career, which is best suited for a balanced attack resulting in him throwing for closer to 200 than 300 and ideally running for another 50 from Allen and 100 from our RB's. 

 

So both sides are right. No Allen does not need to throw for 300 yds to win. Yes Allen did fail to throw for 300 yds when he was being asked to do so. This offense is built around the run and a balanced attack, not 100% by design but also due to Allen's early career limitations. 

[billsfan1959]

2 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Most if not all are not saying you you need 300 yards at all cost. If your offense is playing well and dominating the game then great whether you throw for 100 or 400 yards. The point was discussed more in that the Bills offense has struggled at times AND Allen was not putting up the yards. That is not the be all end all but is a concern. Especially in some games when he is throwing 40-50 times.

 

Luckily Daboll has seen the light as of late and realized Allen is not ready to be the 40-50 attempts for 300 yd QB and needs a more balanced approach to be successful. That is what many were clamoring for all along. Play to Allen strengths at this point in his career, which is best suited for a balanced attack resulting in him throwing for closer to 200 than 300 and ideally running for another 50 from Allen and 100 from our RB's. 

 

So both sides are right. No Allen does not need to throw for 300 yds to win. Yes Allen did fail to throw for 300 yds when he was being asked to do so. This offense is built around the run and a balanced attack, not 100% by design but also due to Allen's early career limitations. 

 

He has had one game this year where he attempted over 40 passes (41) and that was the Cleveland game. If you remember correctly, he led his team to the go ahead TD with 5:26 left in the game. The defense subsequently gave up an 82 yard TD drive, where they gave up plays of 13, 21, and 24 yards. Allen then, in the last 1:44 of the game, led the team from their own 25 to the Cleveland 35 for a shot at a winning FG. He didn't have a particularly good game and neither did the rest of the team. But, he didn't need 300 yds. He stepped up when they needed him to while the defense and the kicker did not.

 

He has never been asked to throw for over 300 yds. He has been asked to lead his team to a go ahead score when behind and he has responded over and over.

[billsfan1959]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Again why are expectations so low here?????

 

I'll take Brees (81-45), Brady (88-20) & Aaron Rogers (45-20) record when throwing for 300 yards......

 

45 games!!!!!!  Geez is that not long enough?????  

 

Anyone here would take Brees, Brady and Rodgers. They are HOF QBs. They also have pretty good records in non 300 yard games.

 

The vast majority of 300 yard games are not by HOF QBs and the record for the last 45 300 yard games in the NFL is 21 wins and 24 losses.

[ngbills]

34 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

He has had one game this year where he attempted over 40 passes (41) and that was the Cleveland game. If you remember correctly, he led his team to the go ahead TD with 5:26 left in the game. The defense subsequently gave up an 82 yard TD drive, where they gave up plays of 13, 21, and 24 yards. Allen then, in the last 1:44 of the game, led the team from their own 25 to the Cleveland 35 for a shot at a winning FG. He didn't have a particularly good game and neither did the rest of the team. But, he didn't need 300 yds. He stepped up when they needed him to while the defense and the kicker did not.

 

He has never been asked to throw for over 300 yds. He has been asked to lead his team to a go ahead score when behind and he has responded over and over.

Why argue this? Everyone has eyes and has seen Allen struggle. Admit that and move on. He has improve and is still improving, but lets not pretend he has chosen not to throw for 300 yards or done enough etc. If he played better in games there would be no need for any late game drives, etc. 

 

And my 40-50 was an exaggeration. But he has thrown the ball 30+ times in 7 games. 

[ngbills]

7 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

Anyone here would take Brees, Brady and Rodgers. They are HOF QBs. They also have pretty good records in non 300 yard games.

 

The vast majority of 300 yard games are not by HOF QBs and the record for the last 45 300 yard games in the NFL is 21 wins and 24 losses.

Brady has thrown for 300 yds 5 times this year. Did it 5x last year and 6 the year before.

Rodgers 3x this year and 4x last year

Brees 3x this year (out half year), 6x last year

Mahomes 6x this year, 10x last year

Wilson 3x this year, 1x last year

 

I could keep listing QB's. Point is not the number of times or using this as the measure of greatness. But the fact that Allen is at 0 is meaningful. He plays more consistent in a number of games this year and he easily passes 300 yds. It is not by design he did not hit 300, rather his inconsistent play in those games. That is who he is at this point. The Bills have adjusted and are back to using his strengths. 

 

 

[DCOrange]

Looks like this thread has taken on a life of it's own, but to the OP:

 

The top 5 passing offenses in the league this year are:

 

1. Dallas - #4 in points per drive
2. Atlanta - #12 in points per drive
3. Kansas City - #2 in points per drive
4. Tampa Bay - #10 in points per drive
5. LA Rams - #19 in points per drive

3/5 are top 10 offenses and 1 of the remaining is just a tad outside.

 

That's pretty pretty good.

 

Edit: Just want to make it clear I'm not saying Allen needs 300 passing yards in a game or anything. Simply pointing out that the best passing offenses pretty closely coincide with the best offenses.

Edited December 3, 2019 by DCOrange

[billsfan1959]

23 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Why argue this? Everyone has eyes and has seen Allen struggle. Admit that and move on. He has improve and is still improving, but lets not pretend he has chosen not to throw for 300 yards or done enough etc. If he played better in games there would be no need for any late game drives, etc. 

 

And my 40-50 was an exaggeration. But he has thrown the ball 30+ times in 7 games. 

 

I have never said Allen hasn't had his struggles. This 300 yard obsession of yours and Billsfan1972 is ridiculous. Not only did you exagerate, you used an example completely out of context in your constant need to diminish what Allen does to fit your narrative.

 

Over the last 8 games, among all QBs, he is 5th in total TDs, 5th in TD% per total touches, 13th in YPA, 3rd in fewest turnovers, tied for 3rd in total wins, and a 98.7 QB rating. 

 

And he is still improving

 

13 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Brady has thrown for 300 yds 5 times this year. Did it 5x last year and 6 the year before.

Rodgers 3x this year and 4x last year

Brees 3x this year (out half year), 6x last year

Mahomes 6x this year, 10x last year

Wilson 3x this year, 1x last year

 

I could keep listing QB's. Point is not the number of times or using this as the measure of greatness. But the fact that Allen is at 0 is meaningful. He plays more consistent in a number of games this year and he easily passes 300 yds. It is not by design he did not hit 300, rather his inconsistent play in those games. That is who he is at this point. The Bills have adjusted and are back to using his strengths. 

 

And yet, here Allen and the Bills are: 1 game ahead of Mahomes and the Chiefs, tied with Rodgers and the Packers, and 1 game behind the rest that you mentioned.

 

But, hey, keep up the crusade...

Edited December 3, 2019 by billsfan1959

[Rocket94]

2 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

You do realize that the points are scored when the ball crosses the goal line or goes through the uprights, right?

 

Matt Stafford throws for 5,000 every flipping year and guess what .... the Lions suck every flipping year.

 

You're just being silly.  You've dipped into this well a few too many times and now the jig is up.  It happens.  Rookie mistake.  You'll need to find a new shtick, now. 

 

Best of luck.

Yes...Stafford! He was the first QB that came to mind when I saw this thread. How is it working out for him!

[VW82]

Top passers in terms of passer rating and their team records with them as a starter:

 

1. Tannehill -- 6-2 record, tied for 6th seed

2. Cousins -- 8-4 record, 6th seed

3. Wilson -- 10-2 record, 2nd seed

4. Jackson -- 10-2 record, 1st seed

5. Mahomes -- 7-3 record, 3rd seed

7. Watson -- 8-4 record, 4th seed

8. Brees -- 5-2 record, 1st seed

9. Rodgers -- 9-3 record, 3rd seed

10. Garappolo -- 10-2 record, 5th seed

11. Prescott -- 6-6 record, 4th seed

...

20. Allen -- 9-3 record, 5th seed

21. Brady -- 10-2 record, 2nd seed

 

It would seem that having a good passer is still very much correlated with winning.  Allen and Brady are outliers, and it's probably related to their teams having the number three and number one scoring defenses.   

Edited December 3, 2019 by VW82

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, VW82 said:

Top passers in terms of passer rating and their team records with them as a starter:

 

1. Tannehill -- 6-2 record, tied for 6th seed

2. Cousins -- 8-4 record, 6th seed

3. Wilson -- 10-2 record, 2nd seed

4. Jackson -- 10-2 record, 1st seed

5. Mahomes -- 7-3 record, 3rd seed

7. Watson -- 8-4 record, 4th seed

8. Brees -- 5-2 record, 1st seed

9. Rodgers -- 9-3 record, 3rd seed

10. Garappolo -- 10-2 record, 5th seed

11. Prescott -- 6-6 record, 4th seed

...

20. Allen -- 9-3 record, 5th seed

21. Brady -- 10-2 record, 2nd seed

 

It would seem that having a good passer is still very much correlated with winning.  Allen and Brady are outliers, and it's probably related to their teams having the number three and number one scoring defenses.   

This is passer rating?  The continued issue that keeps being brought up herein is the lack of a 300 yard passing game by Allen, which has been shown time and again to not necessarily correlate with wins.  If I have ratings correct, you could throw 12 times, complete ten for say 120 yards and 3 TDs with no int's and you'd have a very good rating. 

[billsfan1959]

13 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

This is passer rating?  The continued issue that keeps being brought up herein is the lack of a 300 yard passing game by Allen, which has been shown time and again to not necessarily correlate with wins.  If I have ratings correct, you could throw 12 times, complete ten for say 120 yards and 3 TDs with no int's and you'd have a very good rating. 

 

Right. But, for the sake of argument, Allen, for the season, is 20th at 88.3. However, since the NE game, Allen has really improved his overall play (with lots of room to grow still) and, since that time, over the last 8 games, Allen is 10th in Passer Rating at 98.7.

[DasNootz]

300 yards is indicative that you can make chunk plays.  Allen’s legs (and Tyrod before) can also make big plays.  Wins are wins, and we’ll all be happy with 250 yards passing, 40 yards rushing and 2.5 combined TDs per week from our QB.

[VW82]

6 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

This is passer rating?  The continued issue that keeps being brought up herein is the lack of a 300 yard passing game by Allen, which has been shown time and again to not necessarily correlate with wins.  If I have ratings correct, you could throw 12 times, complete ten for say 120 yards and 3 TDs with no int's and you'd have a very good rating. 

 

Yes, passer rating. FWIW the average passing yards per game of the top passer rating guys through Dak is 257. So it would seem to be QB production + efficiency = wins. 

 

Bills' recent history with lack of 300 yard passing games is more weird curiosity than anything else IMO, but I do think it appropriately points to the fact we've had some serious issues at QB over the years. It's not like we haven't often been way behind and needed to throw the ball. Thankfully that hasn't been the case as much this year.

 

The "Josh can't throw for big yardage" theme is going to continue until he does it. He's not your typical QB prospect and because of that he's going to get picked apart more than the others. There are going to be critics all the way until we're scoring lots of points and winning games mainly because of him instead of our defense, and people can point to data like passer rating to confirm it.       

[billsfan1959]

7 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

Yes, passer rating. FWIW the average passing yards per game of the top passer rating guys through Dak is 257. So it would seem to be QB production + efficiency = wins. 

 

Bills' recent history with lack of 300 yard passing games is more weird curiosity than anything else IMO, but I do think it appropriately points to the fact we've had some serious issues at QB over the years. It's not like we haven't often been way behind and needed to throw the ball. Thankfully that hasn't been the case as much this year.

 

The "Josh can't throw for big yardage" theme is going to continue until he does it. He's not your typical QB prospect and because of that he's going to get picked apart more than the others. There are going to be critics all the way until we're scoring lots of points and winning games mainly because of him instead of our defense, and people can point to data like passer rating to confirm it.       

 

If you are looking to passer rating to confirm it, then, Allen has been doing just that for a number of games now.

 

Edit: Since you used Prescott as an example, as I pointed out in a previous post, Allen has a better QB rating that Prescott over the last 8 weeks.

Edited December 3, 2019 by billsfan1959

[ngbills]

1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

I have never said Allen hasn't had his struggles. This 300 yard obsession of yours and Billsfan1972 is ridiculous. Not only did you exagerate, you used an example completely out of context in your constant need to diminish what Allen does to fit your narrative.

 

Over the last 8 games, among all QBs, he is 5th in total TDs, 5th in TD% per total touches, 13th in YPA, 3rd in fewest turnovers, tied for 3rd in total wins, and a 98.7 QB rating. 

 

And he is still improving

 

 

And yet, here Allen and the Bills are: 1 game ahead of Mahomes and the Chiefs, tied with Rodgers and the Packers, and 1 game behind the rest that you mentioned.

 

But, hey, keep up the crusade...

You must be confusing me. I do not have a crusade. I am simply stating what I think is the obvious. Allen has a ton of room for improvement. If this team had a average or bad defense the entire discussion would be different because the Bills are likely not 9-3. 

 

Allen has yet to join the elite passers. He may never join them. If the Bills can maintain a great defense and good running game they can still win for years to come. If the defense starts to decline they will need a better passing attack and hopefully Allen is up for the challenge at that point. He has all the potential in the world to do that. 

[oldmanfan]

14 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

Yes, passer rating. FWIW the average passing yards per game of the top passer rating guys through Dak is 257. So it would seem to be QB production + efficiency = wins. 

 

Bills' recent history with lack of 300 yard passing games is more weird curiosity than anything else IMO, but I do think it appropriately points to the fact we've had some serious issues at QB over the years. It's not like we haven't often been way behind and needed to throw the ball. Thankfully that hasn't been the case as much this year.

 

The "Josh can't throw for big yardage" theme is going to continue until he does it. He's not your typical QB prospect and because of that he's going to get picked apart more than the others. There are going to be critics all the way until we're scoring lots of points and winning games mainly because of him instead of our defense, and people can point to data like passer rating to confirm it.       

I don't think anyone can argue about the lack of adequate QB play since Kelly.  I think we may have just solved that with Allen.  It's fun to watch a Bill's QB play again! 

 

I still don't get why folks have to look for reasons to criticize the kid, the team, whatever.  He is developing quite nicely I'd say.  I ascribe it to a defense mechanism after so much poor play over the years.

2 minutes ago, ngbills said:

You must be confusing me. I do not have a crusade. I am simply stating what I think is the obvious. Allen has a ton of room for improvement. If this team had a average or bad defense the entire discussion would be different because the Bills are likely not 9-3. 

 

Allen has yet to join the elite passers. He may never join them. If the Bills can maintain a great defense and good running game they can still win for years to come. If the defense starts to decline they will need a better passing attack and hopefully Allen is up for the challenge at that point. He has all the potential in the world to do that. 

Agreed, but I guess I don't understand why folks have to put qualifiers in for the team this year.  Sure, if we had a bad defense our record would be worse.  But instead, why not credit the GM and HC for putting together a really good D that helps their young QB in games as he develops? 

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, ngbills said:

You must be confusing me. I do not have a crusade. I am simply stating what I think is the obvious. Allen has a ton of room for improvement. If this team had a average or bad defense the entire discussion would be different because the Bills are likely not 9-3. 

 

Allen has yet to join the elite passers. He may never join them. If the Bills can maintain a great defense and good running game they can still win for years to come. If the defense starts to decline they will need a better passing attack and hopefully Allen is up for the challenge at that point. He has all the potential in the world to do that. 

 

I sort of reserve elite status to HOF caliber players, in which case, few players will fall into that category - particularly in their second season. 

 

What is your definition of elite passers and what are the criteria? It would be easier to debate if we are coming from the same perspective.

[ngbills]

7 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

I sort of reserve elite status to HOF caliber players, in which case, few players will fall into that category - particularly in their second season. 

 

What is your definition of elite passers and what are the criteria? It would be easier to debate if we are coming from the same perspective.

I agree. There is a temporary elite - like a Mahomes that has looked like the best at his position but only in a short time period or even the current obsession with L Jackson. Then there is the proven, been there, done that with numbers and victories to support - Brady, Brees, Rodgers type guys. 

So much is relative. If say Stafford was on the Bills with this defense what does that do for this team? Or you give Prescott the Bills WR what do his numbers look like? There is team success and individual player success. The Saints kept winning with Teddy B...does that mean he is a good QB or they have a good team and supporting players? 

 

[Billsfan1972]

2 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

He has had one game this year where he attempted over 40 passes (41) and that was the Cleveland game. If you remember correctly, he led his team to the go ahead TD with 5:26 left in the game. The defense subsequently gave up an 82 yard TD drive, where they gave up plays of 13, 21, and 24 yards. Allen then, in the last 1:44 of the game, led the team from their own 25 to the Cleveland 35 for a shot at a winning FG. He didn't have a particularly good game and neither did the rest of the team. But, he didn't need 300 yds. He stepped up when they needed him to while the defense and the kicker did not.

 

He has never been asked to throw for over 300 yds. He has been asked to lead his team to a go ahead score when behind and he has responded over and over.

The Bills have lost games over the past 3 years, which may have ended differently if the QB threw for 300 yards.....  It has already been pointed out that just by luck if the Bills did get those last 35 yards vs. Cleveland through the air then in fact they would have won & Allen threw for 300.  

 

Probably too would have beaten NE if over 300.....  

[Billsfan1972]

51 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

Yes, passer rating. FWIW the average passing yards per game of the top passer rating guys through Dak is 257. So it would seem to be QB production + efficiency = wins. 

 

Bills' recent history with lack of 300 yard passing games is more weird curiosity than anything else IMO, but I do think it appropriately points to the fact we've had some serious issues at QB over the years. It's not like we haven't often been way behind and needed to throw the ball. Thankfully that hasn't been the case as much this year.

 

The "Josh can't throw for big yardage" theme is going to continue until he does it. He's not your typical QB prospect and because of that he's going to get picked apart more than the others. There are going to be critics all the way until we're scoring lots of points and winning games mainly because of him instead of our defense, and people can point to data like passer rating to confirm it.       

No it is a result of a coaching staff not doing a great job on offense.  I'd have liked to have seen Allen's progress being moved along quicker and believe what we saw the last three games were attainable much earlier with a coaching staff not hellbent on winning games 17-13.  

[teef]

9 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

No it is a result of a coaching staff not doing a great job on offense.  I'd have liked to have seen Allen's progress being moved along quicker and believe what we saw the last three games were attainable much earlier with a coaching staff not hellbent on winning games 17-13.  

i'm not sure it works like that.  all qb will develop at their own rate.  the offense may have been kept more conservative to help allen come along, or maybe allen just wasn't/isn't capable yet.  

[VW82]

1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

If you are looking to passer rating to confirm it, then, Allen has been doing just that for a number of games now.

 

Edit: Since you used Prescott as an example, as I pointed out in a previous post, Allen has a better QB rating that Prescott over the last 8 weeks.

 

Not so coincidentally, fans like me and people covering the league are starting to come around on him.  

[Billsfan1972]

4 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

Not so coincidentally, fans like me and people covering the league are starting to come around on him.  

I liked him from the minute hurdled the Vikings player.  I'd have liked to have seen the Bills accelerate the learning curve.  Again how come Kyler Murray could throw for 300+ in his first game and the Bills have gone 45 games without one?

[VW82]

12 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I liked him from the minute hurdled the Vikings player.  I'd have liked to have seen the Bills accelerate the learning curve.  Again how come Kyler Murray could throw for 300+ in his first game and the Bills have gone 45 games without one?

 

I don't understand your 45 games point. Are we talking about Josh or Tyrod or the McD era?? Let's stick to Josh.

 

Last year he didn't do it because he was too raw whereas Murray came into the league a much better player. This year it hasn't happened because our defense is sick and we haven't needed to throw as much. The times where he could have thrown for 300+ like vs. Philly or Cleveland he proved incapable. Will he prove incapable again if given another chance? I tend to think he's shown enough at this point to suggest it's a matter of when, not if.

 

I'm more concerned about his ability to make quick reads and accurate throws from inside the pocket. As was pointed out in another thread, we've done a really good job incorporating roll outs and run & shoot to help get him out of the pocket where he's really effective. Those concepts are putting him in a position to throw for 300. What's going to happen if we play NE in the playoffs and Belichick does what he always does -- makes you have to do the one thing you struggle doing -- and Allen has to stay in the pocket and make plays? To me that's a way more interesting question.      

Edited December 3, 2019 by VW82

[Billsfan1972]

1 minute ago, VW82 said:

 

I don't understand your 45 games point. Are we talking about Josh or Tyrod or the McD era?? 45 games goes back into the Rex era, no? Let's stick to Josh.

 

Last year he didn't do it because he was too raw whereas Murray came into the league a much better player. This year it hasn't happened because our defense is sick and we haven't needed to throw as much. The times where he could have thrown for 300+ like vs. Philly or Cleveland he proved incapable. Will he prove incapable again if given another chance? I tend to think he's shown enough at this point to suggest it's a matter of when, not if.

 

I'm more concerned about his ability to make quick reads and accurate throws from inside the pocket. As was pointed out in another thread, we've done a really good job incorporating roll outs and run & shoot to help get him out of the pocket where he's really effective. Those concepts are putting him in a position to throw for 300. What's going to happen if we play NE in the playoffs and Belichick does what he always does -- makes you have to do the one thing you struggle doing -- and Allen has to stay in the pocket and make plays? To me that's a way more interesting question.      

Again this is always the excuse, too raw, too inconsistent, not accurate.......  It is revisionist history in order to validate your point. 

 

I think more accurate is McD has not been able to have any QB throw for 300 yards in his tenure & every team has done it every year since 2017.

 

McD twice considered Peterman the best QB on the team, which to me says it all.

 

How is every team capable of it annually except the Bills?????  

[Albany,n.y.]

On 12/1/2019 at 1:02 PM, whatdrought said:

As important as the QB position is to success in the NFL, I think the narrative about how important QB's are to success it's still somehow overdone.

The difference between a really good QB & a really bad one is about 10 games.  Just look at the 49ers before Garoppolo, with Garoppolo, then without him last year & now with him this year.  Look at Indy with Manning, the year he was out & then Luck's rookie year.  

[oldmanfan]

8 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Again this is always the excuse, too raw, too inconsistent, not accurate.......  It is revisionist history in order to validate your point. 

 

I think more accurate is McD has not been able to have any QB throw for 300 yards in his tenure & every team has done it every year since 2017.

 

McD twice considered Peterman the best QB on the team, which to me says it all.

 

How is every team capable of it annually except the Bills?????  

Good God.  How long do we have to be subjected to your personal gripe about being more entertained by passing yards?  This team is set up to be a balanced offense with a strong D and it works!  And one of the reasons we don’t have a 300 yard game is because it works, because we don’t get so blown out of games we get trash yards.

 

Rational fans care about wins.  Rational fans don’t go back 45 games for some arbitrary reason when you had different QBs and different WRs playing against different teams.  And so on.

 

I like the running game.  Looking at 2018 stats 8 of the top ten running teams were in the playoffs.  Nine of ten look

like they’ll be this year.  But do I continually post thread after thread and post after post and talk about how I will unapologetically continue to post about how we have to hit X rushing yards per game as a factor of success.  No.  Why?  Because it’s wins that matter.  And because I don’t feel the need to exasperate everyone with my personal entertainment preferences.

[VW82]

7 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Again this is always the excuse, too raw, too inconsistent, not accurate.......  It is revisionist history in order to validate your point. 

 

I think more accurate is McD has not been able to have any QB throw for 300 yards in his tenure & every team has done it every year since 2017.

 

McD twice considered Peterman the best QB on the team, which to me says it all.

 

How is every team capable of it annually except the Bills?????  

 

McD isn't running the offense, Daboll is. Before that it was Dennison.

 

Our team philosophy is to establish a running game, play mistake free and let the defense do their job which has frequently kept the opposition score down and meant we didn't need to abandon the run. There's part of your answer.

 

Josh being raw last year isn't revisionist history it's generally accepted opinion. You're on an island on this one. Most people thought he was raw coming into the draft. He looked very raw in camp and preseason, and it wasn't until after returning from injury that he started showing consistent ability as a passer, and even then he did a lot of his damage on the ground. It wasn't until this year, and really, post NE that he's started to look like a good NFL QB. 

 

Clearly there's something about Peterman. McD got swindled and then Gruden did the same. McD has done so much else right. Pretty sure we can forgive him for missing on a 5th round pick. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

28 minutes ago, VW82 said:

Last year he didn't do it because he was too raw whereas Murray came into the league a much better player.

 

Just a point that Murray may or may not be a better player in the abstract, but he's very much being asked to play in a style of offense where he's already competent and comfortable so he's got a much lower learning curve.

23 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I think more accurate is McD has not been able to have any QB throw for 300 yards in his tenure & every team has done it every year since 2017.

 

I asked elsewhere but perhaps was missed: 

 

----->>>>>>  What is your source that "every team has done this every year since 2017"?  Thanks.

 

I can't defend McDermott against the Peterman charge.  All I can think of is that guy must have Some Stuff in the QB room and the practice field.

I did look and see some evidence that the "every team...every year" thing is false.

[VW82]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Just a point that Murray may or may not be a better player in the abstract, but he's very much being asked to play in a style of offense where he's already competent and comfortable so he's got a much lower learning curve.

 

To clarify, I meant career game one Murray was a better player than career game one Allen. I don't think it would have mattered what offense you put them in -- Murray was just a little more NFL ready. Today Josh looks like the better player though I know an Arizona fan who would debate that.

Edited December 3, 2019 by VW82

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, VW82 said:

To clarify, I meant career game one Murray was a better player than career game one Allen. I don't think it would have mattered what offense you put them in -- Murray was just a little more NFL ready. Today Josh looks like the better player.

 

With that, I can completely agree.  There is a reason why the "plan" was to have someone else start - it's just that the plan on who that would be, was a Bad Plan.

 

It's going to be interesting to see how different team offenses with new QBs develop as the years pass.  One strategy is to move the NFL team's offense closer to what the QB did in college (Ravens, Cardinals).  Another strategy is to look for a guy who they think can run the pro offense the team wants and give him the time he needs to grow into it (Mahomes, Allen). 

 

Last year, it looked as though KC won the lottery.  This year, it's the Ravens.  Next year?

[Billsfan1972]

31 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Just a point that Murray may or may not be a better player in the abstract, but he's very much being asked to play in a style of offense where he's already competent and comfortable so he's got a much lower learning curve.

 

I asked elsewhere but perhaps was missed: 

 

----->>>>>>  What is your source that "every team has done this every year since 2017"?  Thanks.

 

I can't defend McDermott against the Peterman charge.  All I can think of is that guy must have Some Stuff in the QB room and the practice field.

I did look and see some evidence that the "every team...every year" thing is false.

https://www.footballdb.com/stats/300-yard-passing.html

 

Earlier this year when the Bills were in the low 30's, the next nearest Team had gone 11 games between 300 yards passing. 

 

AGAIN EVERY TEAM CAPABLE OF DOING IT EXCEPT THE BILLS....  How is that possible????

Edited December 3, 2019 by Billsfan1972

[teef]

Just now, Billsfan1972 said:

https://www.footballdb.com/stats/300-yard-passing.html

 

AGAIN EVERY TEAM CAPABLE OF DOING IT EXCEPT THE BILLS....  How is that possible????

or is the better question why does anyone care?

Edited December 3, 2019 by teef

[prissythecat]

22 minutes ago, teef said:

or is the better question why does anyone care?

 

 

Well obviously BillsFan1972 does as he has been on his 300 crusade since at least 2017 ?   :p

[teef]

22 minutes ago, prissythecat said:

 

 

Well obviously BillsFan1972 does as he has been on his 300 crusade since at least 2017 ?   ?

i suppose we all have to have a hobby.  

[Gugny]

31 minutes ago, teef said:

i suppose we all have to have a hobby.  

 

After Josh's first 300 yard game, I wonder if there will be a 400 yard game crusade to follow.

[LSHMEAB]

10 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

Allen is a dual threat and has been doing well in both areas - and improving almost every week since the NE game. Matter of fact, he has been comparable to Jackson over the same 8 game stretch:

 

PASSING

                  G     Cmp    Att    Inc    Cmp%    Yds      TD    Int    Rate    Sk    Yds    Y/A    AY/A
Jackson    8    127    188    61      67.55    1422    15      3    109.8    11     42    7.56    8.44
Allen          8    146    235    89      62.13    1688    13      2      98.7     18     95    7.18    7.91

 

RUSHING

                     Att    Yds    Y/A    TD    Fmb    FL    FF    FR
Jackson    104    739    7.11     6       5    1    0    2       
Allen            62    299    4.82     5        7    1    0    3

 

He is getting better and will continue to get better

 

That rushing disparity is actually rather large and the reason Jackson is not a good comparison. Allen wowed as a rookie and is still a VERY good rusher, but he's not in the same ballpark as LJ(In THAT category).

 

Again, Allen has been excellent 3 games in a row without getting to or even particularly close to 300.  So in the context of one game, passing yards don't mean much.

 

But the Bills, on a whole, are still averaging just over 21 PPG. So that begs the question; how are they going to increase that long term. They're going to need to gain more yards. Where are those yards going to come from? Well, the running game needs to get better for starters. But so does the passing yardage. Yards don't equal points, but there is a correlation. 

 

I'm super impressed with Allen and I'm close to being sold; but I don't think it's some crazy notion to believe the passing yardage will increase if A) Allen continues to improve and B) the PPG is going to rise, which it needs to overall.

 

300 yard games WILL come if and when Allen take another leap. He's certainly taken a few already.

5 hours ago, ngbills said:

I agree. There is a temporary elite - like a Mahomes that has looked like the best at his position but only in a short time period or even the current obsession with L Jackson. 

 

I think Mahomes is permanent elite-not so sure about LJ.

[billsfan1959]

12 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

That rushing disparity is actually rather large and the reason Jackson is not a good comparison. Allen wowed as a rookie and is still a VERY good rusher, but he's not in the same ballpark as LJ(In THAT category).

 

Again, Allen has been excellent 3 games in a row without getting to or even particularly close to 300.  So in the context of one game, passing yards don't mean much.

 

But the Bills, on a whole, are still averaging just over 21 PPG. So that begs the question; how are they going to increase that long term. They're going to need to gain more yards. Where are those yards going to come from? Well, the running game needs to get better for starters. But so does the passing yardage. Yards don't equal points, but there is a correlation. 

 

I'm super impressed with Allen and I'm close to being sold; but I don't think it's some crazy notion to believe the passing yardage will increase if A) Allen continues to improve and B) the PPG is going to rise, which it needs to overall.

 

300 yard games WILL come if and when Allen take another leap. He's certainly taken a few already.

 

That comparison was for the last 8 games (since the disastrous NE game for Allen, and the 8 game winning streak for Jackson). You are right that there is a huge disparity in the rushing. Nobody is in Jackson's category as a rusher; however, aside from his talent, he also has had almost twice as many rushing attempts as Allen in a Greg Roman system designed specifically to take advantage of his rushing skills.

 

The point was about production. Over that 8 game period Jackson has only 174 more total yards, 3 more total TDs, 1 less turnover, and a 109 passer rating to Allen's 99.

 

The difference, as you pointed out, is in the team scoring. One of the reasons, IMO, is because, for most of this year, the Bills were having drives end between the opponent's 20-40 yard lines with NO points. They have been fantastic in the red zone; however, excluding drives where Allen took a knee to end the game, the Bills have had 30 drives this year end, with no points between the 20-40 yard lines. If they had just kicked a field goal on 67% (20 of the 30 drives) they would be 7th in the NFL in scoring, rather than 19th.

 

That is where Jackson has excelled. By contrast, the Ravens have had just 4 drives all season (Excluding drives where Jackson took a knee to end the game) inside the opponent's 40 yard line end with no points. 

 

Allen and the Bills have gotten better over the last three weeks. They have had only 1 drive inside the opponent's 40 that did not end in points, and that was a missed field goal. They have also averaged over 400 yds and 26 points per game over those 3 games.So, I think they are getting better. I have been really impressed with Allen over the last three weeks and I believe the uptempo no-huddle suits him well. 

[LSHMEAB]

10 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

I have been really impressed with Allen over the last three weeks and I believe the uptempo no-huddle suits him well. 

I've been saying this since early in his rookie season; uptempo lends itself to PLAYING and not thinking. JA is at his best when he's PLAYING. Talent has never been a question. The results speak for themselves since the Cleveland game.

[HappyDays]

On 12/3/2019 at 12:36 PM, DCOrange said:

The top 5 passing offenses in the league this year are:

 

1. Dallas - #4 in points per drive
2. Atlanta - #12 in points per drive
3. Kansas City - #2 in points per drive
4. Tampa Bay - #10 in points per drive
5. LA Rams - #19 in points per drive

3/5 are top 10 offenses and 1 of the remaining is just a tad outside.

 

The combined record of those teams is 29-31.

 

Every year the top rushing teams have the best records. Not because running the ball is more important than passing, but because if you have to pass the ball a lot it's probably because you are behind a lot. If you're running the ball you are winning.

 

Pat Mahomes had the lowest passing yardage of his career over the past 2 games. The Chiefs won both by 7 points and 31 points respectively.

 

You win games with efficient offense and defense. Period. The Cowboys had 426 total yards to our 356 yards. Yet we won because we were efficient on both sides of the ball.

 

I don't know how much more proof you need that this whole talking point is dumb.