10 decision coins: Josh Allen

[billspro]

There is no way we get a high enough pick to get a QB. If the Bill start off like 0-4 next year I’m going full tank mode for Lawrence though.

[ILBillsfan]

Just now, LSHMEAB said:

Where has he improved? His best game was against Miami as a rookie. The Giants game was really encouraging. Since then, nada.

 

It would be IDEAL if Josh steps it up and becomes the answer because anything else leaves us behind the 8 ball. But this idea that it's Allen or nothing is crazy and I'm kind of tired of being labeled as an anti fan because I have questions. Last Bills PLAY I missed was against the Chargers when there was a power outage. Next to last was when they cut into a game against the Jets for some Clinton impeachment nonsense.

 

At this point, Josh has proven very little and I feel no personal attachment. WHEN I see more, that will come. 

 

I want the BILLS to start WINNING. Don't really care about who makes that happen.

Really the bills are 6-3 where did you have them.  What expectations had you set before the year at the midpoint.  He is more accurate especially on the intermediate throws is learning to move defensive players 

 

maybe go check out some film room analyst of Allen or you can basically spew garbage with nothing but I say so explore the internet you can find non biased analyst that would say he is improving

 

and if your old school as you suggest Rome wasn’t built ina day I don’t see anything that says his progression has flattened it trended down.  Has it skyrocketed up nope but Instill feel this team needs a stud WR that can win man on man.  Currently we have zone busters

would also like to see a stud offense lineman added as well as we are allowing a lot of pressure still 

[CincyBillsFan]

24 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Serious question. Are you a Bills fan or a Josh Allen fan? Because what we've seen isn't good enough. I want to see the Bills win whether it's Allen or not.

 

Interesting question.  I won't deny I'm rooting for Allen to succeed with the Bills.  But since I've been an avid Bills fan for DECADES before Allen was even born I have to go with being a Bills fan first.

 

Now I have a serious question for you.  What makes you think that being a Bills fan AND an Allen fan at this point in time isn't one and the same thing?  If Allen doesn't pan out the Bills are screwed, at least for the next couple of years. 

 

As far as claiming that what we've seen isn't good enough, well that's your opinion.  And IMO that line of thinking is NOT backed up by the facts.  The first FACT being that the Bills are 6 - 3 with Allen at QB.  So yes they are winning with Allen.

 

You seem to be taking a fantasy football approach to the Bills.  I get that in FF you can add & subtract QB's like picking a shirt in the morning.  If the QB you picked isn't working out, you can just plug in a new one.  But that's not how it works in the NFL. 

 

So another serious question:  what do you want to do:

 

*  Complain about Allen not being Mahomes or Russel Wilson?  Tell us how much Allen sucks and what he does wrong?  How does that help the Bills win games?

 

*  Or do you want to bench Allen and start Barkley?  Give Barkley a couple of games and if the O doesn't produce throw Allen back in there.  Is that what you want to do?  If it works in FF it should work in the real NFL.  Sorry, the Bills have been there and done that before and it hasn't worked.

 

*  Or are you suggesting that we go get Teddy Bridgewater or Andy Dalton in the off season and sink 25 million into them?  Of course do that and you can say goodby to signing a stud Tackle or pass rusher.  But hey all we need to win is a better QB.  And we'll still have Allen on the bench for two more years so if our FA QB doesn't pan out we can throw Allen back out there and maybe this time he'll get it?

 

*  Or are you suggesting that we draft a QB next year in the 2nd or 3rd round?  Maybe we can get lucky and pick the next Drew Brees or Arron Rogers!  Of course we would have to give Allen and the rookie equal snaps in pre-season but that shouldn't mess things up.  Right?

 

It seems to me that if you want the Bills to win games you have to root for Allen to become a top notch QB.  Rooting for Allen is pretty much the same as rooting for the Bills.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by CincyBillsFan

[LSHMEAB]

18 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

Interesting question.  I won't deny I'm rooting for Allen to succeed with the Bills.  But since I've been an avid Bills fan for DECADES before Allen was even born I have to go with being a Bills fan first.

 

Now I have a serious question for you.  What makes you think that being a Bills fan AND an Allen fan at this point in time isn't one and the same thing?  If Allen doesn't pan out the Bills are screwed, at least for the next couple of years. 

 

 

 

 

It's not one and the same in my opinion. Of course it would be ideal if Allen pans out. But if he doesn't, it would be in the BILLS best interest to move on. We're not at that point; that I will give you. I'm rooting for the kid for the same reasons you are; it would be pretty AWFUL for the franchise if he doesn't succeed. That being said, I'm not tied to him because I haven't seen enough to make me believe he's going to be the guy to lead to long term success.

[Lfod]

6 to the left and 4 to the right. I think Josh is good but not great. I think Josh with better talent around him would be more productive. I don't think putting more talent around him fixes things about him he can do better. 

 

I'm definitely more in favor of moving forward with Josh than against. I just and not convinced that he will be one of the Top QBs in the future. Just one of the better ones. 

[Sherlock Holmes]

10 hours ago, rayray808 said:

You are in a room with the owners, GM, and head coach. Each of you have 10 coins in your hand, and must place them in one of two places on the table.

 

LEFT SIDE: We continue to put energy and resources towards Josh Allen. Win or lose this year, he is our starter this year and next. We are confident he can be the guy.

RIGHT SIDE: It is time to start planning for another QB. It has been 20 games, and his perceived strengths (strong arm to cut through weather, long ball for the HR, can run the ball) are actually his weaknesses.

 

How are you spreading out your 10 coins?

 

 

 

**for me: 8 coins left, 2 coins right

 

10 hours ago, teef said:

the coins would be better spent on cocaine and hookers.

Trick question... I take all 10 coins and pool them with teef

[Bob in STL]

I collect everyone’s coins and offer to buy beer with them. 

[Nextmanup]

40 minutes ago, billspro said:

There is no way we get a high enough pick to get a QB. If the Bill start off like 0-4 next year I’m going full tank mode for Lawrence though.

Lamar Jackson was drafted #32 last year; at the moment he's looking like the best QB prospect since Mahomes who went #10 himself.  McBeane love to trade up as it is.

Who knows what we could acquire.

 

 

1 hour ago, LSHMEAB said:

Serious question. Are you a Bills fan or a Josh Allen fan? Because what we've seen isn't good enough. I want to see the Bills win whether it's Allen or not.

[Mango]

8 hours ago, jletha said:

I wish I could scream from the rooftops for this entire board to hear that his arm strength is NOT ABOUT THE LONG BALL! HE HAS NEVER BEEN GOOD AT THE LONG BALL, EVEN IN COLLEGE. HIS ARM STRENGTH ALLOWS HIM TO THROW IT ON ROPES ALL OVER THE FIELD.

 

So many here seems to think arm strength is solely for deep go-routes and therefore Josh's arm strength is worthless.

Nailed it! 
 

And I will add his ability to put just about every throw on a frozen rope has bailed him out of his inability to read defenses over his career. Allen is regularly late to the read/throw, and the NFL isn’t the mountain west, he can’t get away with it. 
 

 

[LSHMEAB]

1 hour ago, ILBillsfan said:

Really the bills are 6-3 where did you have them.  What expectations had you set before the year at the midpoint.  He is more accurate especially on the intermediate throws is learning to move defensive players 

 

maybe go check out some film room analyst of Allen or you can basically spew garbage with nothing but I say so explore the internet you can find non biased analyst that would say he is improving

 

and if your old school as you suggest Rome wasn’t built ina day I don’t see anything that says his progression has flattened it trended down.  Has it skyrocketed up nope but Instill feel this team needs a stud WR that can win man on man.  Currently we have zone busters

would also like to see a stud offense lineman added as well as we are allowing a lot of pressure still 

The record is fine which is why I think the team may be trending in the right direction. Allen; I haven't seen it yet. I'm a results guy. He needs to put up and improve NOW or maybe he's the problem. I want the Bills to win. I dont care who's playing QB.

[leonbus23]

5 hours ago, H2o said:

Roethlisberger's 3rd was his worst year of his career completing less than 60% of his passes and throwing 18 TD's to 23 INT's. Year 5 he was less than 60% as well with 17 TD's to 15 INT's. Rivers sat for 2 years behind Drew Brees before he even got his shot. 

Sure. Okay. 

[leonbus23]

4 hours ago, london_bills said:

Should there not be someone here waiting in the wings should he not show it?

 

Are you saying he doesn't look as good as big Ben or rivers in their first two seasons? 

 

I agree in regards mariota/ tannehill etc 

Let's say their first 20 starts. Allen doesn't look as good as Big Ben or Rivers. 

 

Yes. There should be someone. 

 

I imagine if Allen doesn't improve in year three, they'll draft someone before year four. But may still play Allen in year four. 

Edited November 13, 2019 by leonbus23

[NoSaint]

I think the more interesting framing is coins to beane vs McD

 

While the happy family is nice- does a little more discord help push guys past their comfort zone and into better places? For instance does McD go harder to win now if he doesn’t feel incredibly safe with the GM? Does beane push more talent on the roster even if not perfect culture fits if it’s not the guy that got him the gig? 
 

It’s a fine line before dysfunction but something I’ve pondered a bit the last year or two. 

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

It's not one and the same in my opinion. Of course it would be ideal if Allen pans out. But if he doesn't, it would be in the BILLS best interest to move on. We're not at that point; that I will give you. I'm rooting for the kid for the same reasons you are; it would be pretty AWFUL for the franchise if he doesn't succeed. That being said, I'm not tied to him because I haven't seen enough to make me believe he's going to be the guy to lead to long term success.

 

I'm not tied to Allen anymore then I was tied to Daryl Lamonica back in the 1960's!  I was just a kid back then but I agreed with my uncle over my dad that Lamonica was the guy and that Kemp was past his prime.  I can still remember the heated arguments between my dad and uncle on this topic.

 

When I watch Allen play today I'm reminded of Lamonica.  I just think he is the right guy for Buffalo.  So I look for the positive in his play and defend him here on 2BD against what I think is unfair criticism. 

 

I'm "tied" to Allen only to the extent that if he doesn't work out the Bills are in QB purgatory for another few years.  As a Bills fan you have to want Allen to succeed.  It's the shortest path to this franchise becoming relevant again and seriously contending for a Super Bowl win. 

 

You seem to equate defending Allen against unfair and at times ignorant criticisms to somehow being "tied to him".  I say hogwash to that.  I defend Allen on here because I truly believe, based on his performance to date, that he is the guy.  When I no longer believe that I'll be as ready as you to switch to our next best option.   

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

10 hours ago, H2o said:

No one is saying it's a bed of roses and I am surely not hiding behind our record. I am also not saying that Allen hasn't shown flaws. I am though however part of the crowd that thinks the OC is more of the problem than the QB. Again, there was a post by Gugny last week about Daboll not calling a game that keeps Allen in any kind of rhythm. This is spot on. How many good looking drives have we had where we march down the field, put up 7, and then Daboll never goes back to ANY OF IT for the rest of the game? How many 3rd and shorts have we had where Daboll has EVERY receiver running patterns 15 or more yards down the field? The designed QB runs he goes to the well on too often or at the most inopportune of moments? They need to incorporate the intermediate stuff because he is showing much better on that this year, but let the young man be himself. Let him run on his own, let him ad lib against the defense, let him trust himself, and let him go out and make plays. Actually call a game suited to what he's doing well and stop trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Seems pretty simple to me and I'm sure there are people smart enough to do just that, but Daboll isn't one of them. 

 

 

What we are seeing is this Bills team try to make their young QB prove he can carry a team rather than the now standard approach of propping the  young QB up with offensive talent.   

 

You can make an argument that propping up a QB like the Rams did with Jared Goff created a false positive on a QB who maybe isn't really that special.    I'd argue that it put the Rams in a SB that they could have won and that juice alone was worth the squeeze.   But also I'd add that he might get better in the coming years as he learns to live without the personnel and coaching advantages he had in years 2 and 3 of his career.

 

Maybe Allen learns and grows into a more well rounded QB by being forced into a complicated offense that doesn't suit his skills and asks a lot of him.    Maybe 3 years from now he will be far ahead of a guy like Lamar Jackson who is having a simplified offense built around his skills.   But to me it's not worth the risk of wrecking this talented young QB they invested so much in.   Beane needs to GET IT DONE and get an arsenal of talent for the man.   

[BADOLBILZ]

51 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

I think the more interesting framing is coins to beane vs McD

 

While the happy family is nice- does a little more discord help push guys past their comfort zone and into better places? For instance does McD go harder to win now if he doesn’t feel incredibly safe with the GM? Does beane push more talent on the roster even if not perfect culture fits if it’s not the guy that got him the gig? 
 

It’s a fine line before dysfunction but something I’ve pondered a bit the last year or two. 

 

EVERY team wants the talented, high character, uncomplicated personality players........supply of them is nowhere near demand.........so if you are holding out for a starting lineup full of them you are going to time-out as a HC/GM combo before you can pull that off.    

 

The sooner they realize that the better.    They played the role of scared money at the deadline........to the point where they didn't even put in a claim on a free Josh Gordon.

 

 Even Jauron realized he blew it that way...........but it was too late and he just ended up looking like a clueless screwball by signing TO and trying to build a no-huddle offense with Turk Schonert and Trent Edwards at the controls.

 

Better to ease yourself into the risk pool before the urgency to win pushes you all the way in.

[H2o]

12 hours ago, H2o said:

Roethlisberger's 3rd was his worst year of his career completing less than 60% of his passes and throwing 18 TD's to 23 INT's. Year 5 he was less than 60% as well with 17 TD's to 15 INT's. Rivers sat for 2 years behind Drew Brees before he even got his shot. 

 

7 hours ago, leonbus23 said:

Sure. Okay. 

What?  Those are facts bro. Sorry if it is hard for you to accept.

[Dr.Sack]

Do my 10 coins get a: WR1, TE1, RT1, RG1?

[EmotionallyUnstable]

10 in on Allen 

 

Give him another season and if he does not make drastic improvements, I’m not JUST moving on from him. 

[GunnerBill]

I'd say 7 to 3 or 8 to 2 is about right. I expect the Bills to be players in the Quarterback market at the draft. Certainly not in the first two days but I would expect them to take a guy somewhere on day 3 just as good roster management. The type of guy they take at that point is worth watching. If they go for a guy who looks "solid backup" type then it tells us they are still all in 10 to 0 with their coins on Josh. If they go for more of a project high upside guy maybe it suggests the Bills are in that 8 to 2 territory as well. Plenty of story of this season still be written though.