Daboll as an OC - Rankings for last 10 years

[C.Biscuit97]

53 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Bill Belicheck**** disagrees with you.  When he was looking internally for an OC, he passed over Daboll for Josh McDaniels.  Daboll left the following season to take a position as QB coach with the Jets.   He coached Pennington at age 31 and and Favre age 39 there before moving on into OC positions.

 

 

 

Oh I agree McDaniels is better. Just saying Daboll would be fine with Brady.  
 

I think another way to look at this is that there are coaches/ qbs who elevate the talent level around them. I don’t think Daboll is This type of coach and Allen isn’t that type of qb yet.

[Phil The Thrill]

5 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

As I pointed earlier in the thread, Jalen Hurts is a much better player without Daboll.  
 

and you don’t understand how the coaching world works by now? Daboll was friends with Polian’s son.  If you make the right connections once you get in, you can keep finding work.  It’s why terrible coaches keep getting rehired.

Most QB’s are better as Juniors or Seniors than they are as freshmen.  I don’t think you can fault the OC....well, maybe you can if you have an agenda.

 

Yes the NFL is an old boys network full of nepotism.  That’s for sure.  But it’s also a production business and if you don’t have value, you don’t often get a chance to be a coordinator. 

[berg1029]

59 minutes ago, JR in Pittsburgh said:

Overall, I like his offensive concept—

spread it out, short passes, pass to set up the run. It’s probably the most exciting offense Conceptually we have had in 20 years.

 

i think we can all point to complaints with the specific play-calling on game day, but that’s also where the head coach can step in and basically tell him at a high level “we need to start running the ball more Here, etc.”

 

 

Good post. 

 

His offensive scheme seems pretty solid and he deserves credit for that.  I think the plays that he employs are suited well to our arsenal (i.e. the jet sweeps with guys like McKenzie, the designed runs for Allen, and the development of the short passing game in response to his issues with longer touch passes).  His issues, much like McDermott, stem from in game decision making and adjustment.   

[Phil The Thrill]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

Oh I agree McDaniels is better. Just saying Daboll would be fine with Brady.  
 

I think another way to look at this is that there are coaches/ qbs who elevate the talent level around them. I don’t think Daboll is This type of coach and Allen isn’t that type of qb yet.

Who is the type of OC than can elevate Allen?  You can argue that Allen NEVER has been anything better than average at any level.  

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, Phil The Thrill said:

Most QB’s are better as Juniors or Seniors than they are as freshmen.  I don’t think you can fault the OC....well, maybe you can if you have an agenda.

 

Yes the NFL is an old boys network full of nepotism.  That’s for sure.  But it’s also a production business and if you don’t have value, you don’t often get a chance to be a coordinator. 

Hurts was the conference player of the year as a freshman.  There were talks of Hurts was holding him back while he was at Alabama. Hurts is a Heisman candidate.

 

like I said earlier, I think Daboll would be fine with an established franchise qb.  But it’s absolutely insane that with his resume, he keeps getting O.C. jobs.  If is a production business and his sucks.  I would have rather had a young upcoming coach from a successful nfl team work with Allen than a retread bad O.C.  but it Is what it is. 

[Z-Mann]

I do feel like it's important to note that JA has produced more turnover opportunities (18 total, 11 fumbles 7 INT's) than touchdowns (16 total, 10 passing 6 running).  I don't feel like the turnover problems falls as much on the coach as it does on JA...he should have moved past this by now, and he hasn't.  

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Hurts was the conference player of the year as a freshman.  There were talks of Hurts was holding him back while he was at Alabama. Hurts is a Heisman candidate.

 

like I said earlier, I think Daboll would be fine with an established franchise qb.  But it’s absolutely insane that with his resume, he keeps getting O.C. jobs.  If is a production business and his sucks.  I would have rather had a young upcoming coach from a successful nfl team work with Allen than a retread bad O.C.  but it Is what it is. 

 

What it is, is fixable.  This is on McDermott if he allows it to continue.

[Virgil]

21 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

This is a great way to cherry pick stats to spin a narrative that Daboll is the problem and not his QB - who by the way is ranked toward the bottom of league for starting QB’s.  
 

You are looking at numbers that are out of context to show that Daboll sucks as an OC.   While the overall rankings from Daboll are below average, much of this has to do with a passing game which has struggled.  But guess what else is below average?  The QB’s running that passing game.  He has almost always inherited a bad football team with a less than average QB.  The QB’s that he’s had to work with:

 

Bruce Gradowski

Derek Anderson 

Matt Moore

Kyle Orton

Josh Allen 
 

And look - if we’re talking numbers here, then Josh Allen is a below average in 2019.  
 

Do you honestly think that another OC would get anything more out of teams led by these QB’s?  
 

So if you have a QB that hasn’t shown the ability to be average, how can your passing offense be any better than....below average?

 

When you look at his team’s rushing performance, I see offenses that usually finishes within the top 10 rushing offense.  
 

That tells me that Daboll isn’t completely ineffective as a playcaller.  He just has never had anything better than average at QB.  Currently he has below average.  
 

This post by @Virgil is again, more scapegoating on Daboll, without holding any accountability on the QB.  

How is it cherry picking when I’m showing his overall ranking as an OC?   Cherry picking would be situational.  This is his actual resume.  
 

Second of all, do your homework someone before you accuse me of scapegoating.  I’ve been very critical of Allen in the past and even recently. I think Daboll is the bigger issue of the two.  
 

But nice post

[C.Biscuit97]

18 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

But that lack of awareness is al Daboll’s fault.  It can’t possibly be on the QB

Allen definitely is a big part of the problem too.  We are forcing a square peg into a round hole.  It’s like when we forced Tyrod into a WCO.

 

mcdermott is an awesome defensive coach who is clueless offensively.

[Virgil]

4 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Who is the type of OC than can elevate Allen?  You can argue that Allen NEVER has been anything better than average at any level.  

And you could equally argue Daboll hasn’t proven anything at any level 

[nedboy7]

Maybe it’s possible that Allen is the problem and not daboll.  But...if you have to change a part it’s the OC.  JA needs another shot with a different coach. 

[dave mcbride]

23 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

1) why are only bad teams hiring him then to be an O.C.?

 

2) those qbs aren’t great but they had better seasons with other OCs than Daboll. Anderson was a pro bowler one year. 
 

3) I do think we overrate coaching.  I don’t doubt Daboll would be better with a more established vet qb.  But that’s not what we have here. I never liked the hiring because it felt like such an uninspiring pick.  I wanted Kliff Kingsburg. 

No, they all suck. Seriously, look it up. They only one you can claim actually regressed was Cassell, but Cassell genuinely stinks and somehow got lucky before then. I refuse to countenance the idea that he's ever been any good. This is the classic Daboll season: start out with a truly terrible QB (Chad Henne), and then bench him for a career backup (Matt Moore) who then goes on to have a decent season. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/2011.htm

Edited November 11, 2019 by dave mcbride

[Chris66]

4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Hurts was the conference player of the year as a freshman.  There were talks of Hurts was holding him back while he was at Alabama. Hurts is a Heisman candidate.

 

like I said earlier, I think Daboll would be fine with an established franchise qb.  But it’s absolutely insane that with his resume, he keeps getting O.C. jobs.  If is a production business and his sucks.  I would have rather had a young upcoming coach from a successful nfl team work with Allen than a retread bad O.C.  but it Is what it is. 

You make it sound like the qb only has 1 option on any given play. The qb has multiple option the receivers have multiple options. Its not like Dabol is calling a 50 yard bomb on 3rd and 3. Thats up to the qb. Unfortunately for you guys the qb is failing miserably.

[C.Biscuit97]

4 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

No, they all suck. Seriously, look it up. They only one you can claim actually regressed was Cassell, but Cassell genuinely stinks and somehow got lucky before then. I refuse to countenance the idea that he's ever been any good. This is the classic Daboll season: start out with a truly terrible QB (Chad Henne), and then bench him for a career backup (Matt Moore) who then goes on to have a decent season. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/2011.htm

So Dave, why aren’t good teams hiring him? He has been with 2 of the best coaches in history and yet no team with a good qb has hired him. 

[Scott7975]

6 minutes ago, Chris66 said:

You make it sound like the qb only has 1 option on any given play. The qb has multiple option the receivers have multiple options. Its not like Dabol is calling a 50 yard bomb on 3rd and 3. Thats up to the qb. Unfortunately for you guys the qb is failing miserably.

You didn't see that 3rd and 4 did you?  There were no short routes.  Allen's option was deep, intermediate, run with the football.

[dave mcbride]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

So Dave, why aren’t good teams hiring him? He has been with 2 of the best coaches in history and yet no team with a good qb has hired him. 

The Pats keep hiring him back, and the best college coach in history hired him. I also think that in the coaching fraternity, there is a TON of respect for McDermott.  It could be the case that he thinks he'll make his name by developing a QB. Allen has incredible talent, and maybe he sees that. The thing is, he keeps getting hired. The pay for these coordinators is pretty much the same for most teams across the league. 

 

Look, I'll never forget the pile-on that occurred with Dan Henning, a bona fide good NFL mind. He failed in Buffalo because Todd Collins was his QB. He goes to the Jets, and Vinnie Testaverde has the season of his life. 

 

Finally, Daboll, for all of his flaws, is basically 1000 times better than Rick Dennison, who I thought was awful.

[Chris66]

4 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

You didn't see that 3rd and 4 did you?  There were no short routes.  Allen's option was deep, intermediate, run with the football.

I didnt . what was the coverage. In the EP system there is always an outlet provided the receiver and qb recognize the coverage.

[GG]

8 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

You didn't see that 3rd and 4 did you?  There were no short routes.  Allen's option was deep, intermediate, run with the football.

 

Which 3rd & 4 are you referring to?

[C.Biscuit97]

8 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

The Pats keep hiring him back, and the best college coach in history hired him. I also think that in the coaching fraternity, there is a TON of respect for McDermott.  It could be the case that he thinks he'll make his name by developing a QB. Allen has incredible talent, and maybe he sees that. The thing is, he keeps getting hired. The pay for these coordinators is pretty much the same for most teams across the league. 

 

Look, I'll never forget the pile-on that occurred with Dan Henning, a bona fide good NFL mind. He failed in Buffalo because Todd Collins was his QB. He goes to the Jets, and Vinnie Testaverde has the season of his life. 

 

Finally, Daboll, for all of his flaws, is basically 1000 times better than Rick Dennison, who I thought was awful.

The Pats bring him back as a TEs coach.  And you might want to check their resumes again. Dennison has a much better one. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/DennRi0.htm. McDermott deserves a huge amount of blame for his season here because he traded away our best wr a week before the season; forced Tyrod to become a WCO passer (so dumb); and forced Peterman on him. 
 

and I do hate we blame coaches for player’s struggles all the time. But if you have years of evidence that a guy is a bottom 5 OC in the nfl, when do you admit maybe he just isn’t good enough?

[Chris66]

Dabol is running the baby stroller version of the EP system. Either Josh isnt using it correctly or Dabol doesnt trust him yet. Not sure which is which. I never see pre snap motion or Allen audible out of the play

[frostbitmic]

1 hour ago, JR in Pittsburgh said:

True dat. Brady would have like Five 60-yard TDs to Robert Foster by now!! 
 

I do believe that while Daboll may not work out in the end, him being here has accelerated JA’s football IQ. 

You do realize that the receiver has to actually track and catch the ball don't you ??

[Phil The Thrill]

31 minutes ago, Virgil said:

And you could equally argue Daboll hasn’t proven anything at any level 

Sure it’s not like he ever won a national championship as an OC.  
 

If you want to argue that Daboll has only been an average to below average OC, then it’s a fair point.  But you just can’t discount his below average talent at QB either 
 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, Phil The Thrill said:

Sure it’s not like he ever won a national championship as an OC.  
 

If you want to argue that Daboll has only been an average to below average OC, then it’s a fair point.  But you just can’t discount his below average talent at QB either 
 

 

Who couldn’t win a national championship at Alabama?  

[Phil The Thrill]

21 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

The Pats keep hiring him back, and the best college coach in history hired him. I also think that in the coaching fraternity, there is a TON of respect for McDermott.  It could be the case that he thinks he'll make his name by developing a QB. Allen has incredible talent, and maybe he sees that. The thing is, he keeps getting hired. The pay for these coordinators is pretty much the same for most teams across the league. 

 

Look, I'll never forget the pile-on that occurred with Dan Henning, a bona fide good NFL mind. He failed in Buffalo because Todd Collins was his QB. He goes to the Jets, and Vinnie Testaverde has the season of his life. 

 

Finally, Daboll, for all of his flaws, is basically 1000 times better than Rick Dennison, who I thought was awful.

Dave I completely agree.  Daboll is not without his flaws.  But you have to consider the QB’s he has to work with

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

12 minutes ago, frostbitmic said:

You do realize that the receiver has to actually track and catch the ball don't you ??

plenty of blame to go around on those throws, for sure.

[Scott7975]

30 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Which 3rd & 4 are you referring to?

 

I think it was the one he threw to Beasley running down the field double covered.  The announcers said there was no short routes.  No digs, curls, etc.  I think I heard someone else say the closer receiver was 10 yards.  I haven't seen the replay but I don't remember there being a short outlet on that play.

[dave mcbride]

30 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

The Pats bring him back as a TEs coach.  And you might want to check their resumes again. Dennison has a much better one. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/DennRi0.htm. McDermott deserves a huge amount of blame for his season here because he traded away our best wr a week before the season; forced Tyrod to become a WCO passer (so dumb); and forced Peterman on him. 
 

and I do hate we blame coaches for player’s struggles all the time. But if you have years of evidence that a guy is a bottom 5 OC in the nfl, when do you admit maybe he just isn’t good enough?

No offense, but I'm starting to think it should be a house rule to post surrounding context (Who is the QB? Who is the head coach?) when evaluating coordinators. He was an OC in Denver under Shanahan and an OC in Texas under Kubiak. Basically, Curtis Modkins. 

 

Also, when he was the TE coach in NE, they had the most productive TE game in the league. Hmm ... I wonder why ... could it have anything to do with the players?

 

I saw what I saw with Dennison, and he couldn't adjust to what he had in Buffalo. At all. 

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by dave mcbride

[Phil The Thrill]

20 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Who couldn’t win a national championship at Alabama?  

Thanks for proving my point

[Scott7975]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

No offense, but I'm starting to think it should be a house rule to post surrounding context (Who is the QB? Who is the head coach?) when evaluating coordinators. He was an OC in Denver under Shanahan and an OC in Texas under Kubiak. Basically, Curtis Modkins. 

 

I saw what I saw with Dennison, and he couldn't adjust to what he had in Buffalo. At all. 

 

 

Further context is that no one in the NFL wants to hire this guy.  It could be that Josh is just terrible.  It could be that Dabol is terrible.  It could be they are both terrible.  What I do know is that Dabol has never had success in the NFL.

[Phil The Thrill]

57 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Allen definitely is a big part of the problem too.  We are forcing a square peg into a round hole.  It’s like when we forced Tyrod into a WCO.

 

mcdermott is an awesome defensive coach who is clueless offensively.

 

Then what’s the right offense for Allen?  I don’t disagree that the QB he has become is not the one they wanted when they traded up for him.  But I think a lot of that had to do with his limitations.  

47 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

You didn't see that 3rd and 4 did you?  There were no short routes.  Allen's option was deep, intermediate, run with the football.

Welcome to the NFL in 2019

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Further context is that no one in the NFL wants to hire this guy.  It could be that Josh is just terrible.  It could be that Dabol is terrible.  It could be they are both terrible.  What I do know is that Dabol has never had success in the NFL.

Again: What is the context of the teams he has coached for? Why did Nick Saban hire him? Why does Belichick keep hiring him? Who were his quarterbacks on the teams he coached for? 

[Phil The Thrill]

3 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Further context is that no one in the NFL wants to hire this guy.  It could be that Josh is just terrible.  It could be that Dabol is terrible.  It could be they are both terrible.  What I do know is that Dabol has never had success in the NFL.

You also know that Josh has also never had success at any level, right?

[Scott7975]

1 minute ago, Phil The Thrill said:

You also know that Josh has also never had success at any level, right?

 

Yes I do.  Is it a good marriage then?  Or would it be better to have someone that can tailor an offense to what the QB can do and actually train/groom him.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Scott7975

[Phil The Thrill]

17 minutes ago, JR in Pittsburgh said:

plenty of blame to go around on those throws, for sure.

Except the fact that most of Josh’s deep passes this year have been 10 yards in front of the receiver.  Tough to track a badly overthrown ball

Just now, Scott7975 said:

 

Yes I do.  Is it a good marriage then?

It just means that past results don’t always indicate future success or failure.  

1 hour ago, nedboy7 said:

Maybe it’s possible that Allen is the problem and not daboll.  But...if you have to change a part it’s the OC.  JA needs another shot with a different coach. 

Maybe but I see a lot of limitations with Josh’s game.  It’s tough to think that a new OC could come in and suddenly transform Josh into a different QB.  My guess is that he would be about the same.

[GG]

8 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I think it was the one he threw to Beasley running down the field double covered.  The announcers said there was no short routes.  No digs, curls, etc.  I think I heard someone else say the closer receiver was 10 yards.  I haven't seen the replay but I don't remember there being a short outlet on that play.

 

Beasley was his third option on that play.  My guess is that Knox was the primary, but he didn't sell the route too well and the LB followed him immediately.  I don't know why Josh trusted the long bomb to Beasley who was triple covered on that play.  Also an immediate fade to Brown on the left side would have worked because he was single covered.   But Josh can't make that throw yet.

[WideNine]

2 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Flawed logic - Anderson was a Pro Bowl QB for 1 year and has struggled as a starter for years after Daboll was fired.  Seems to me that’s on outlier.

 

Why do bad teams hire Daboll?  Probably because he knows offense and has proven to know how to design an effective running game despite poor QB performance.  
 

If he’s so bad, why would one of the greatest college coaches ever hire him?  After all, it’s not like his offense ever won a national championship 

 

What QB has he developed then that's makes him qualified?

 

What offense has he taken and made it significantly better?

 

Below is a real resume builder:

 

As you forgot (cherry picked) QBs sans Cassel another pro-bowler. Let's set the wayback machine to Daboll's tenure at KC.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1298845-kansas-city-chiefs-matt-cassel-and-brian-daboll-will-thrive-with-new-offense

 

Points scored by Daboll's offense:

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2012/11/30/3709930/kansas-city-chiefs-awful-bad-horrible

 

From USA Today about the 2012 Chiefs:

Here’s a look at what they had to say about that season for Kansas City:

 

"Easily the least-competitive team this proud franchise has ever fielded. Despite Jamaal Charles’ brilliance, the Matt Cassel era ended with a thud … which included 12 losses in the final 13 games — and a four-game skid to end the season when K.C. was thrashed 103-23 collectively."

 

2012 Chiefs were the worst Chief teams in their history, a complete tragic org failure...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/chiefs/2012/12/26/kansas-city-chiefs-long-season/1791101/

 

 

What Daboll excels at is breaking down film and finding ways to exploit defenses, it is what he did for NE. What he has not done very well is putting those exploits into practice in games as an OC, or tailoring game plans to his players strengths, and fielding offenses that can score enough points.

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by WideNine

[bills11]

Like I said in another thread ...daboll is the wrong oc for this personnel..McDermott saw firsthand in Carolina how they were able to maximize cam Newton despite his limitations as a passer yet here he is as a hc trying to turn Josh Allen into tom Brady when he's more like cam Newton in playstyle 

[Dr.Sack]

Daboll is coaching the way McD wants him to. Limit turnovers, limit penalties, take check downs. 

[uticaclub]

The whole narrative that he wasn’t a good OC in the past because he didn’t have good QBs, will just lead him to be hired by another team in a few years & they will justify giving me another chance because the last QB he coached was Josh Allen

[Turk71]

  41 passes and 14 handoffs against one of the worst run defenses in the league in a game that was close throughout.

 34 passes and 12 handoff in a game played in howling 45 mph winds.

  Lack of short quick passing options to keep the pass rush off of Allen.

  Putting the offense completely on Allen's shoulders, even the running game. Singletary is averaging over 6 yds a carry but only gets the ball 8 times a game, Allen rushes 7.4 times per game.

  I've seen enough idiocy from Daboll.