First Time I have been concerned with Josh Allen

[longtimebillsfan]

7 hours ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

After seeing Josh Allen's first performance in pre-season last year, I started a thread title "For the love of God, just name Josh Allen the starter" (Mods later changed thread title).

 

To me Allen is the most likable guy in the NFL, and the most fun to watch.  I so much want him to succeed.  

 

Yesterday's game troubled me quite a bit.  With two weeks to prepare for the worst team in the NFL, Singletary back,  a upgraded receiving corp including  glue hands Duke Williams and Tyler Kroft active, I expected the offense to be hitting on nearly all cylinders.   

it appears to me now that Allen and Daboll are simply not a good combination.  Daboll seems to be committed to developing Allen to play in the Daboll system rather than developing a system to optimize Allen's considerable physical skills.  At this point I am not sure they will be successful together.  There is a legitimate school of thought to say that there is a proper way to play NFL QB and Allen needs to learn that.    At the same time I think it is legitimate to say that some teams have been successful (Russell Wison) adapting an offense to take advantage of a particular QBs skill set.   I am not sure which is right.  I will say that I think Daboll's offense would work identically well with Jared Goff as our QB, and I think that leaves a lot of Josh Allen's skill set unused. I don't want to turn Allen into Goff.  

 Young quarterbacks have up and down performances.  Come in off the ledge.

 

It will be okay.

[ngbills]

8 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

That is not it....it is a example.

 

He threw that under direct pressure.....in stride....to a speeding receiver.

 

That shows he CAN do it......but is having issues with it at the moment.

I get it. But many guys can do it occasionally. The reality is thus far in his career he has issues the majority of the time. This year and last year. In college he was not great at deep balls. We seem to confuse his ability to throw far and hard with the ability to connect with receivers on those balls. He has the potential to be good at based on his arm strength just not skilled at it as of now. 

[Pokebball]

32 minutes ago, benderbender said:

The biggest head scratcher for me was his scramble in which he evaded 3 potential sacks and STILL didn’t throw it away. But otherwise I’d rather him overthrow a deep ball receiver than to underthrow. 

It was 3rd down, right?  4th and 14 or 4th and 10.  Out of field goal range.  It didn't matter.  He knew that.  Throwing it away was a certain punt.  Scrambling coulda maybe gotten it.

6 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Long ball is the new completion percentage. When that gets fixed, the same folks will find the next thing.

Right?

4 minutes ago, ngbills said:

I get it. But many guys can do it occasionally. The reality is thus far in his career he has issues the majority of the time. This year and last year. In college he was not great at deep balls. We seem to confuse his ability to throw far and hard with the ability to connect with receivers on those balls. He has the potential to be good at based on his arm strength just not skilled at it as of now. 

He wasn't great at deep balls in college?

[whorlnut]

7 hours ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

right?

 

The DEFENSE is the reason that game was close. They underperformed mightily. The O put up 24 points.

 

Nobody EVER wants to blame the defense, but you are right. Up until Tre’s INT, they absolutely sucked. Period. 
 

it’s hilarious to me no matter how bad the D is at times, they always seem to get a pass.  The lack of any competent quarterback over the years has made us all gun shy. Even when we do have a guy that is 10-7 as a starter it’s not good enough. Some of you should be ashamed. 

[london_bills]

7 hours ago, Philo said:

Josh has played arguably his most complete and mistake free games the last two weeks and now people are concerned??

He's not put A COMPLETE, Consistent game together yet, he plays differently at times in the game and so IN THAT there are things that concern people.

 

Bigger picture You are right about the last two weeks (aside from the one pick in the Titans game). More aware of the game situation, throwing the ball away. He's done what was asked of him to do, to be more responsibile.

 

He was more hesitant at the start of the dolphins game I thought, looked like he didn't want to throw a pick - but who can blame him?? However this indecisiveness at times is what Allen has shown AS WELL AS THE GOOD.

 

After the half against the dolphins he was GREAT. You can't ask for more there. Allen looked the business.

 

At other times you can ask for more and be concerned about what's going on - he clicks into gear, but when he's not in that gear it's all a bit more messy and odd.

 

There needs to be a conversation about these points without people thinking posters are saying Allen is all bad.

 

As long as he puts those clutch drives in a game he will win games for the bills.

 

DONT IGNORE what is there in games -  there's the great Allen when he clicks into gear and and there's the indecisive Allen who looks 'nervous'. 

 

No one wants a different quarterback at this point but to shut down all talk of his inadequacies is ignorant.

Edited October 21, 2019 by london_bills

[TwistofFate]

2 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

Sounds like you missed the Miami game where he scored 5 tds.    

 

There’s your wow moment 

 

 

How many yards did he throw for??? 

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, TwistofFate said:

How many yards did he throw for??? 

Who cares.....yards are not even a measurement of productivity anyway

[TwistofFate]

1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

Who cares.....yards are not even a measurement of productivity anyway

They were when tyrod was qb. 

 

Allen is beginning to look like Tyrod 2.0.

 

Missed multiple wide open passes yesterday, was indecisive with the ball on multiple occasions, and still hasn't put up a passing clinic even with a revamped oline, backfield, and Wr corps. 

 

We are winning and its great, but he needs to take the next step.   

 

Im not seeing it, and its becoming worrisome.  You dont draft a qb in round one to be a game manager. 

[london_bills]

4 minutes ago, TwistofFate said:

They were when tyrod was qb. 

 

Allen is beginning to look like Tyrod 2.0.

 

Missed multiple wide open passes yesterday, was indecisive with the ball on multiple occasions, and still hasn't put up a passing clinic even with a revamped oline, backfield, and Wr corps. 

 

We are winning and its great, but he needs to take the next step.   

 

Im not seeing it, and its becoming worrisome.  You dont draft a qb in round one to be a game manager. 

I wouldn't go that far.

The main difference between Allen and Tyrod is that Allen can lead game winning drives with more regularity. He's more of a clutch player. I remember Tyrod playing great against Seattle and then couldn't seal the TD at the end.

 

I agree that Allen is inconsistent and indecisive but I saw him be consistent and decisive also in the second half.

Edited October 21, 2019 by london_bills

[Pokebball]

9 minutes ago, TwistofFate said:

They were when tyrod was qb. 

 

Allen is beginning to look like Tyrod 2.0.

 

Missed multiple wide open passes yesterday, was indecisive with the ball on multiple occasions, and still hasn't put up a passing clinic even with a revamped oline, backfield, and Wr corps. 

 

We are winning and its great, but he needs to take the next step.   

 

Im not seeing it, and its becoming worrisome.  You dont draft a qb in round one to be a game manager. 

You realize Brady is a game manager, right?

[John from Riverside]

10 minutes ago, TwistofFate said:

They were when tyrod was qb. 

 

Allen is beginning to look like Tyrod 2.0.

 

Missed multiple wide open passes yesterday, was indecisive with the ball on multiple occasions, and still hasn't put up a passing clinic even with a revamped oline, backfield, and Wr corps. 

 

We are winning and its great, but he needs to take the next step.   

 

Im not seeing it, and its becoming worrisome.  You dont draft a qb in round one to be a game manager. 

In no way shape or form does Josh Allen look like Tyrod Taylor....who struggled to get to 200 yards passing (and I was a TT supporter)

 

Josh Allen throws for a minimum of 200 yards and it is more like 250 yards a game in his SECOND YEAR

[london_bills]

1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

In no way shape or form does Josh Allen look like Tyrod Taylor....who struggled to get to 200 yards passing (and I was a TT supporter)

 

Josh Allen throws for a minimum of 200 yards and it is more like 250 yards a game in his SECOND YEAR

Forget the yards. Look at the presence and drives WHEN ALLEN IS GOOD.

[John from Riverside]

Just now, london_bills said:

Forget the yards. Look at the presence and drives WHEN ALLEN IS GOOD.

Then there was the whole "Make Tyrod Taylor be a QB" thing

 

In crunchtime.....when they make Josh Allen be a QB....he is....and a good one

[london_bills]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

Then there was the whole "Make Tyrod Taylor be a QB" thing

 

In crunchtime.....when they make Josh Allen be a QB....he is....and a good one

I think when Allen plays badly he is worse than Tyrod was, Tyrod was decent. When Allen plays his best he's on a higher level.

[Pokebball]

14 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

In no way shape or form does Josh Allen look like Tyrod Taylor....who struggled to get to 200 yards passing (and I was a TT supporter)

 

Josh Allen throws for a minimum of 200 yards and it is more like 250 yards a game in his SECOND YEAR

It really doesn't matter who Josh looks like a year into his career.  What matters is the trajectory Josh is on.  Considering he had a crappy offense around him last year and a new cast around him this year, I'm pleasantly surprised at how well and how quickly he's growing.  Success breeds success and too many fan are expecting too much too soon.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Pokebball

[Seven-N-Nine]

1 minute ago, Pokebball said:

It really doesn't matter who Josh looks like a year into his career.  What matters is the trajectory Josh is on.  Considering he had a crappy offense around him last year and an new cast around him this year, I'm pleasantly surprised at how well and how quickly he's growing.  Success breeds success and too many fan are expecting too much too soon.

 

I just don't understand how the deep ball went from something to look forward to, to never hitting on one one yet this season.

[Teddy KGB]

1 minute ago, london_bills said:

Tyrod was decent 

 

Nope he really wasn’t.     He’s where he belongs as a backup QB.  

[london_bills]

Just now, Seven-N-Nine said:

 

I just don't understand how the deep ball went from something to look forward to, to never hitting on one one yet this season.

That's a weird one the long ball. I feel his shorter game is better than it was so there is that! 

[BuffaloHokie13]

18 minutes ago, TwistofFate said:

They were when tyrod was qb. 

No, points were. We were top 12 and top 10 in points in '15 and '16...

[Seven-N-Nine]

1 minute ago, london_bills said:

That's a weird one the long ball. I feel his shorter game is better than it was so there is that! 

 

Yeah, but I want both.

[london_bills]

Just now, Teddy KGB said:

 

Nope he really wasn’t.     He’s where he belongs as a backup QB.  

Disagree, he had his moments but lacked presence mainly for me. Thought he would do better in Cleveland.

1 minute ago, Seven-N-Nine said:

 

Yeah, but I want both.

Where do you stand on Allen? Lost faith?

[macaroni]

1 minute ago, Seven-N-Nine said:

 

I just don't understand how the deep ball went from something to look forward to, to never hitting on one one yet this season.

 

 

IMHO it could be like when you play golf and are hitting from a par 5 tee box …. if you over think your stroke, trying to hit that perfect shot, you will screw up 99% of the time.

 

Last year there was absolutely no expectations from him, he'd just rear back and let it sail. This year he is worried about protecting the ball … maybe over thinking it a bit … maybe a little bit apprehensive. 

 

I think he has whatever the football equivalent of the yips are. 

 

again IMHO this too will pass

[london_bills]

Just now, macaroni said:

 

 

IMHO it could be like when you play golf and are hitting from a par 5 tee box …. if you over think your stroke, trying to hit that perfect shot, you will screw up 99% of the time.

 

Last year there was absolutely no expectations from him, he'd just rear back and let it sail. This year he is worried about protecting the ball … maybe over thinking it a bit … maybe a little bit apprehensive. 

 

I think he has whatever the football equivalent of the yips are. 

 

again IMHO this too will pass

It's very much a mental thing 

[Pokebball]

8 minutes ago, Seven-N-Nine said:

 

I just don't understand how the deep ball went from something to look forward to, to never hitting on one one yet this season.

Yeah, I don't know either.  Just a guess on my part, but I think Daboll pulled back on the reins on the gunslinger hero ball play.  Especially after that NE game.  He's gotten pretty dang conservative on his deep throws and the only guy that's going to reach it , if anyone does, is going to be his guy.  Everyone see's he had the guy, including the opposing coaches and players.  There is still some value in showing the opponent he can beat them with the long ball.  He's going to have to connect on them sooner than later or else they quit respecting it.

[Seven-N-Nine]

11 minutes ago, london_bills said:

It's very much a mental thing 

 

I've also read it's a muscle memory thing, but they practice that kinda stuff all the time ( I assume).

[BigDingus]

8 hours ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

62%, 2TD, 0INT has you concerned?

 

And I think you mean Russell Wilson.

 

 

 

Is that all there was to the game? Huh...and here I was told referencing stats don't matter. Because if you want to go that route, things look even worse...especially in comparison to every other actual successful QB in the league.

[Pokebball]

How's his long ball looking in practice all week?  Is he over throwing receivers in practice? 

Just now, BigDingus said:

 

Is that all there was to the game? Huh...and here I was told referencing stats don't matter. Because if you want to go that route, things look even worse...especially in comparison to every other actual successful QB in the league.

Oh, stats mattered a lot 6 months ago, until they didn't matter anymore  

[london_bills]

Just now, Pokebball said:

How's his long ball looking in practice all week?  Is he over throwing receivers in practice? 

Good question. 

[ngbills]

1 hour ago, Pokebball said:

 

He wasn't great at deep balls in college?

No he was not. There was a ton of talk about this around draft time.

 

NFL passer rating on deep passes in 2017:
Human Howitzer All-World Arm Josh Allen: 84.6 (31.0% complete), 37th in the draft class@bakermayfield : 134.8 (56.7% complete), 13 TDs, 1 INT, led the draft class.

Oh, Mayfield had more passes dropped too. #ArmTalent.

 

What good is a rocket launcher arm if you don't know how to use it?

Josh Allen completed just one pass of 40+ yards in 2017. Each of the other QBs in this class completed at least 3 such passes.

 

 

Among the top #NFLDraft QB prospects, @Lj_era8 was the most aggressive on 3rd down, throwing 71.1% of his attempts past the sticks

 

[BigDingus]

8 hours ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

right?

 

The DEFENSE is the reason that game was close. They underperformed mightily. The O put up 24 points.

 

 

How did they even get those opportunities to put up the 2 TD's that put them ahead? Oh yeah, turnovers by the defense, including 1 in which the Dolphins were at the goalline about to score another TD which would've had us down 21-9 at that point. 

Thank god the offense actually capitalized on those turnovers, otherwise the game would've been lost. 

[london_bills]

Just now, BigDingus said:

 

How did they even get those opportunities to put up the 2 TD's that put them ahead? Oh yeah, turnovers by the defense, including 1 in which the Dolphins were at the goalline about to score another TD which would've had us down 21-9 at that point. 

Thank god the offense actually capitalized on those turnovers, otherwise the game would've been lost. 

AND that hauschka has been money since the contract extension. 

[ngbills]

34 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

In no way shape or form does Josh Allen look like Tyrod Taylor....who struggled to get to 200 yards passing (and I was a TT supporter)

 

Josh Allen throws for a minimum of 200 yards and it is more like 250 yards a game in his SECOND YEAR

Allen over 200yds in all but 6 of 17 games. That is around 65% of the time over 200yds. 

Allen over 250yds only 2 times in 17 games. Would not call that 250yds minimum.

Allen overall averaging under 200yds in his 17 games

 

Tyrod was at 200yds 55% of the time.

Tyrod was over 250yds 25% of the time.

Tyrod through less picks in in nearly triple the number of games. 

 

So far we are getting less of the Allen upside compared to the dont turn the ball over Tyrod. 

 

 

 

[Pokebball]

58 minutes ago, ngbills said:

No he was not. There was a ton of talk about this around draft time.

 

NFL passer rating on deep passes in 2017:
Human Howitzer All-World Arm Josh Allen: 84.6 (31.0% complete), 37th in the draft class@bakermayfield : 134.8 (56.7% complete), 13 TDs, 1 INT, led the draft class.

Oh, Mayfield had more passes dropped too. #ArmTalent.

 

What good is a rocket launcher arm if you don't know how to use it?

Josh Allen completed just one pass of 40+ yards in 2017. Each of the other QBs in this class completed at least 3 such passes.

 

 

Among the top #NFLDraft QB prospects, @Lj_era8 was the most aggressive on 3rd down, throwing 71.1% of his attempts past the sticks

 

Josh's 2016 vs 2017 stats at UW were significantly different due to the WRs and TEs on his team in 2016 that graduated.  He completed many long balls his soph year.

2016: Allen helped lead Wyoming to the 2016 Mountain Division title and a spot in the Mountain West Conference Championship Game. Wyoming hosted that championship game as the highest ranked team in the conference. The Cowboys went on to earn a berth in the 2016 San Diego County Credit Union Poinsettia Bowl. He was a key player in Wyoming’s win over two Top 25 ranked teams in 2016, as the Cowboys also earned votes in the national polls. The Cowboy offense ranked No. 2 in the MW and No. 25 in the nation in scoring offense, averaging 35.9 points per game. Wyoming led the conference and ranked 22nd nationally in first downs (312). As a team, UW averaged 15.27 yards per pass completion to rank No. 3 in the MW and No. 8 in the NCAA. The Cowboys converted 90.6 percent of their red-zone opportunities into points to rank No. 2 in the league and No. 14 in the country. As a sophomore, Allen ranked No. 1 in the Mountain West and No. 6 nationally in passing yards per completion (15.33 yards). He also led the MW and was No. 16 in the country in points responsible for (218). Allen threw28 touchdown passes in 2016, placing him No. 1 in the conference and No. 20 in the NCAA.He was second in the MW and 32nd in the nation in passing yards (3,203). Allen was also No. 2 in conference and No. 40 in the nation in total offense (266.1 yards per game). His 3,203 passing yards in 2016 are the fifth best single-season total in Wyoming school history, and his 3,726 yards of total offense in a single season rank No. 3 in school history. His 36 touchdowns responsible for -- passing (28), rushing (7) and receiving (1) -- rank No. 2 in Wyoming history. Allen’s 28 passing TDs rank as the third best single season at Wyoming. He had five games of 300+ yards of total offense: 315 vs. Northern Illinois; 327 vs. Boise State; 327 vs. Utah State; 366 at UNLV; and 338 vs. San Diego State in the regular-season meeting between the two schools. His high passing game was a 334-yard effort at UNLV, his high rushing game was 74 yards vs. Air Force and his high total offense game was 366 at UNLV (334 passing and 32 rushing).

 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Pokebball

[Seven-N-Nine]

48 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Then there was the whole "Make Tyrod Taylor be a QB" thing

 

In crunchtime.....when they make Josh Allen be a QB....he is....and a good one

 

I'd just like it if he didn't have to be MrCrunchTime every game.

[Pokebball]

22 minutes ago, ngbills said:

No he was not. There was a ton of talk about this around draft time.

 

NFL passer rating on deep passes in 2017:
Human Howitzer All-World Arm Josh Allen: 84.6 (31.0% complete), 37th in the draft class@bakermayfield : 134.8 (56.7% complete), 13 TDs, 1 INT, led the draft class.

Oh, Mayfield had more passes dropped too. #ArmTalent.

 

What good is a rocket launcher arm if you don't know how to use it?

Josh Allen completed just one pass of 40+ yards in 2017. Each of the other QBs in this class completed at least 3 such passes.

 

 

Among the top #NFLDraft QB prospects, @Lj_era8 was the most aggressive on 3rd down, throwing 71.1% of his attempts past the sticks

 

I'll let you count the number of long balls Josh threw in 2016.

 

 

[John from Riverside]

8 minutes ago, Seven-N-Nine said:

 

I'd just like it if he didn't have to be MrCrunchTime every game.

Then we should have paid a gazillion dollars for a veteran QB

 

This is what you get when you draft and groom a QB

 

 

[LB3]

4 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I just watched the first half again. Josh was not awful at all. He's wasn't very good but it was hardly on him. He picked up both a 2-20 and 1-20 for first downs. He ran for a couple first downs on third (one was called back). He missed two longer throws, one to Brown who was covered (one yard ahead and would have needed a perfect pass right on the sideline with two defenders near) and one to Dawson who was totally blanketed and was not going to make the catch. He threw 3 darts for 10-20 yard plays. Two to Brown and one to Knox.  The fourth dart was dropped by Knox that would have been first and goal.

 

The one time we punted on 3rd and 11 Daboll called an ill-advised screen that was smothered immediately and had nothing to do with Josh. The one play everyone complained about he had to throw away he got away from three guys that should have tackled him and barely had time to try to get away from the fourth. Even if he threw it away it would have been 3-10 instead of 3-14. He didn't throw one terrible ball and not one was even close to being a turnover excluded a blocked pass early that went into the air and a Bill knocked it down. Again, you couldn't say he was good but he wasn't even bad if you watch each play he had and what he did with it.

Just watched it again myself. Total overreaction by fans who wanted to see a blowout. Old Josh would have thrown multiple interceptions under that duress.

[Seven-N-Nine]

One other thing that concerns me about Allen is, during his press conference the tip of his nose was all red. Is that a huge embarrassing zit? If so, been there done that.

[Buftex]

I don't know how old a lot of the posters are here, though I know have been Bills fans for 40+ years.  I suspect many have only known the Bills during this "drought" era. Anyone who is old enough to remember the Super Bowl era Bills (and I mean really remember them, not just the highlights) can tell you, Jim Kelly had plenty of ***** games along the way....but made plays to win more often than not. Allen is progressing...let him grow.  He was fine yesterday.

[london_bills]

Just now, Seven-N-Nine said:

One other thing that concerns me about Allen is, during his press conference the tip of his nose was all red. Is that a huge embarrassing zit? If so, been there done that.

His face will continue to get redder until he throws a pick. Then it will disappear.