John Warrow’s High Praise For Beane & McDermott Regime

[BADOLBILZ]

2 minutes ago, K-9 said:

While I appreciate the the explanation, it's not necessary 

  

 

Your viability as some worthy of discussion takes a hit every time you act like your complete lack of knowledge on a subject is irrelevant when you are called on it.

 

Like I said........more thought and research or stay on the porch,  ol' yeller'.

[K-9]

14 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Respectfully never understood this argument. None of us are paid to make decisions. Fan clamor for this player or that player is irrelevant. McD chose to pass on Mahomes and Watson, so that's on him. Beane/McDermott went with Allen a year later and that will determine their fate. But THEY are responsible for making decisions, not the fans.

I agree 100% so I'm not sure what argument you think I'm making above. I'll sum it up and say I'd have a lot more respect for people who make claims BEFORE HAND, with well reasoned logic behind them vs. the throngs of hindsight GMs who maintain they knew something all along after the fact. 

[K-9]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

  

 

Your viability as some worthy of discussion takes a hit every time you act like your complete lack of knowledge on a subject is irrelevant when you are called on it.

 

Like I said........more thought and research or stay on the porch,  ol' yeller'.

I'm not surprised you'd have to act this way given how you, once again, have to put words into another poster's mouth and then go off on an unrelated tangent, in order to make another specious point. Moving the goal posts is your go to m.o. when your failed argument gets tossed in your face. Every. Single. Time. 

 

"Have some respect for the process of discussion on this board." 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, K-9 said:

I agree 100% so I'm not sure what argument you think I'm making above. I'll sum it up and say I'd have a lot more respect for people who make claims BEFORE HAND, with well reasoned logic behind them vs. the throngs of hindsight GMs who maintain they knew something all along after the fact. 

 

I was wary of Mahomes before that draft. Always thought elite potential but man was that footwork a shambles. I said I would be wary about picking him somewhere he needed to start right away because I think the footwork needed some work before he was ready to be flung out there. But the Bills did have the option to keep Tyrod for one more year and take a Quarterback. That was a possible for them. I said I thought Deshaun Watson could start and produce immediately, he was my guy, and before his ACL blew he was on pace to smash the rookie TD record - and would almost certainly have posted more than Mayfield went on to set the new record at in 2018. 

[K-9]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

I was wary of Mahomes before that draft. Always thought elite potential but man was that footwork a shambles. I said I would be wary about picking him somewhere he needed to start right away because I think the footwork needed some work before he was ready to be flung out there. But the Bills did have the option to keep Tyrod for one more year and take a Quarterback. That was a possible for them. I said I thought Deshaun Watson could start and produce immediately, he was my guy, and before his ACL blew he was on pace to smash the rookie TD record - and would almost certainly have posted more than Mayfield went on to set the new record at in 2018. 

Like I said, I hadn't seen enough of him to comment either way. I do remember your breakdowns of both Watson and Mahomes. IIRC, you pounded the table for Watson and I respect that immensely. Others around here could learn a thing or two from your commitment to your assessments and, more importantly, your willingness to own them after the fact, whether they proved right or wrong. 

[Augie]

I think everybody here should be tested for PED’s.  

[K-9]

5 minutes ago, Augie said:

I think everybody here should be tested for PED’s.  

I’m done with him. So I’m cool. 

[Augie]

Just now, K-9 said:

I’m done with him. So I’m cool. 

 

That just may count as trying to duck the test.....be ready for a knock on your door! 

[eball]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea their defense balled out. And obviously the offense was as much Kubiak as it was Dennison. But the idea floated on these boards that Rick Dennison is some sort of incompetent idiot who held the 2017 Bills offense back is simply fantasy. I would say it is fair to say he didn't raise it above the sum of its parts but he got what was there talent wise in my opinion. He was net neutral. 

 

Any OC who calls outside runs for Mike Tolbert is suspect. End of story. 

[BADOLBILZ]

36 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Like I said, I hadn't seen enough of him to comment either way. I do remember your breakdowns of both Watson and Mahomes. IIRC, you pounded the table for Watson and I respect that immensely. Others around here could learn a thing or two from your commitment to your assessments and, more importantly, your willingness to own them after the fact, whether they proved right or wrong. 

 

 

Here's A LOT better piece of advice.......and one YOU should definitely heed Ole' Yeller'.....if you don't want to look ignorant like you(especially recently)in this thread then don't create hot takes about subjects that you are unfamiliar with and aren't willing to do any research on.

 

The primary reason my success rate on takes is so high is because I don't have a take on every subject...........these are things Gunner does.........and that is inevitably going to hurt your batting average because no matter how much you put into it.......it is still an inexact science to say the least.

 

 

[thebandit27]

56 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Like I said, I hadn't seen enough of him to comment either way. I do remember your breakdowns of both Watson and Mahomes. IIRC, you pounded the table for Watson and I respect that immensely. Others around here could learn a thing or two from your commitment to your assessments and, more importantly, your willingness to own them after the fact, whether they proved right or wrong. 

 

I was the Ma-homer

 

[K-9]

Just now, thebandit27 said:

 

I was the Ma-homer

 

I recall that now that you mention it. But you’ve been pounding the table for years for guys so I can’t remember all of your good ones. 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Neutral is failing compared to good coaching, yes. But he wasn't the reason the offense sucked. The offense sucked because there was not enough talent. I wasn't clamouring for Dennison to stay, thought I wasn't calling for his head either, but the abuse he got on this board was frankly ludicrous. He was blamed for everything short of global warming, the 2008 financial crash and Brexit. Despite having the league's best non throwing Quarterback to work /suffer with. 

One of the things that sold me on McDermott, and I'm mostly sold on him, was that he actually fired Dennison.  By the end of the season, I wanted Dennison out of there, because of his total lack of creativity.   I thought McDermott was too forgiving, to much a believer in the process, to can Dennison after only one season.   When I saw that McD had pulled the trigger, my view of McD went up.   It said he has objectives and he isn't afraid to to make hard decisions when objectives aren't being met.  That offense should have been better than it was, and McD knew it.  

[K-9]

6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Here's A LOT better piece of advice.......and one YOU should definitely heed Ole' Yeller'.....if you don't want to look ignorant like you(especially recently)in this thread then don't create hot takes about subjects that you are unfamiliar with and aren't willing to do any research on.

 

The primary reason my success rate on takes is so high is because I don't have a take on every subject...........these are things Gunner does.........and that is inevitably going to hurt your batting average because no matter how much you put into it.......it is still an inexact science to say the least.

 

 

I’m done with you and your antics. When you are capable of having an adult discussion, one without disingenuous premises, speciousness, putting words in people’s mouths, staying on point without going off on tangents because your point has been refuted, and having to constantly move the goal posts because you aren’t grown up enough to just admit that maybe you were wrong about something, then get back to me. In the meantime, it’s all a futile exercise. So, off with you now. 

[JohnC]

10 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Here's A LOT better piece of advice.......and one YOU should definitely heed Ole' Yeller'.....if you don't want to look ignorant like you(especially recently)in this thread then don't create hot takes about subjects that you are unfamiliar with and aren't willing to do any research on.

 

The primary reason my success rate on takes is so high is because I don't have a take on every subject...........these are things Gunner does.........and that is inevitably going to hurt your batting average because no matter how much you put into it.......it is still an inexact science to say the least.

 

 

Don't be so full of yourself. I agree that you have a high success rate on your takes. That shouldn't be surprising because they are usually made after the fact. It's like betting on a game after it has already been played. It doesn't take much talent to predict an outcome when you already know the outcome. I'm confident that you know what the definition of disingenuous is?

[K-9]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Neutral is failing compared to good coaching, yes. But he wasn't the reason the offense sucked. The offense sucked because there was not enough talent. I wasn't clamouring for Dennison to stay, thought I wasn't calling for his head either, but the abuse he got on this board was frankly ludicrous. He was blamed for everything short of global warming, the 2008 financial crash and Brexit. Despite having the league's best non throwing Quarterback to work /suffer with. 

Just to be clear hear, Rick Dennison was not the reason our offense sucked. Our offense sucked because of the dearth of talent, especially at QB. Unfortunately, he couldn’t prove one way or the other if he was a good OC or not while here. I lean toward nothing special though. 

 

Simple question: Are you also of the opinion that if Mahomes had come here that he would have risen to the same quick, great heights under Dennison as he has under Reid in KC?

Edited June 23, 2019 by K-9

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

One of the things that sold me on McDermott, and I'm mostly sold on him, was that he actually fired Dennison.  By the end of the season, I wanted Dennison out of there, because of his total lack of creativity.   I thought McDermott was too forgiving, to much a believer in the process, to can Dennison after only one season.   When I saw that McD had pulled the trigger, my view of McD went up.   It said he has objectives and he isn't afraid to to make hard decisions when objectives aren't being met.  That offense should have been better than it was, and McD knew it.  

 

Whereas I think the offense was exactly what it should have been with a poor Quarterback, half an offensive line and a rotating cast of below average receivers. 

[CommonCents]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

Like I said, I hadn't seen enough of him to comment either way. I do remember your breakdowns of both Watson and Mahomes. IIRC, you pounded the table for Watson and I respect that immensely. Others around here could learn a thing or two from your commitment to your assessments and, more importantly, your willingness to own them after the fact, whether they proved right or wrong. 

As long as he owns the JOsh Allen tattoo that is soon to be put on his forehead. 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, K-9 said:

Simple question: Are you also of the opinion that if Mahomes had come here that he would have risen to the same quick, great heights under Dennison as he has under Reid in KC?

 

I think I have already answered, though indirectly. I think had he been forced to play straight away - no. By the time he did become the KC starter Dennison was no longer our OC. 

41 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Any OC who calls outside runs for Mike Tolbert is suspect. End of story. 

 

He runs the zone freaking stretch. That is his scheme. Not his fault those above his head gave him a fat running back and insisted on him playing. 

[K-9]

Just now, CommonCents said:

As long as he owns the JOsh Allen tattoo that is soon to be put on his forehead. 

I get the sense that Gunner isn’t so full of himself or so insecure in his beliefs that he wouldn’t own his opinion on Allen.

 

Tattoo on his forehead? Kinda like when Aldo Raine carves into Hans Landa’s head?

[CommonCents]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

I get the sense that Gunner isn’t so full of himself or so insecure in his beliefs that he wouldn’t own his opinion on Allen.

 

Tattoo on his forehead? Kinda like when Aldo Raine carves into Hans Landa’s head?

Gunner is reasonable and I appreciate his hard work and sharing it with the board, all compliments I have given him before. 

 

Just keeping the Allen train on track. 

[K-9]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think I have already answered, though indirectly. I think had he been forced to play straight away - no. By the time he did become the KC starter Dennison was no longer our OC. 

 

He runs the zone freaking stretch. That is his scheme. Not his fault those above his head gave him a fat running back and insisted on him playing. 

Sorry if I missed it earlier. So, how about with Daboll last season then? I submit he would have been better, but given our line, and the absence of Hill, Kelce, and Hunt, I don’t believe he would have put up 50 TDs and had an MVP year, either. 

 

Its a ridiculous supposition, anyway. A complete fantasy where our own individual biases and projections have to tell the tale. No basis in reality. So I’ll leave the “what ifs” to others. 

5 minutes ago, CommonCents said:

Gunner is reasonable and I appreciate his hard work and sharing it with the board, all compliments I have given him before. 

 

Just keeping the Allen train on track. 

Oh, that Allen train is on track all right. 

 

All the way to Canton five years after he hangs them up.

[GunnerBill]

16 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I get the sense that Gunner isn’t so full of himself or so insecure in his beliefs that he wouldn’t own his opinion on Allen.

 

Tattoo on his forehead? Kinda like when Aldo Raine carves into Hans Landa’s head?

 

There will be not tattoo anywhere on my body. I don't like them. 

 

But I have always said I hope my evaluation on Allen was wrong. It means the Bills win. I am reasonably optimistic. But I never back away from having opinions and I never try and change them after the fact. If you never sit on the fence you get things wrong sometimes. That is pretty much how I approach life, let alone football. 

[K-9]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

There will be not tattoo anywhere on my body. I don't like them. 

 

But I have always said I hope my evaluation on Allen was wrong. It means the Bills win. I am reasonably optimistic. But I never back away from having opinions and I never try and change them after the fact. If you never sit on the fence you get things wrong sometimes. That is pretty much how I approach life, let alone football. 

Words to live by.

[BADOLBILZ]

27 minutes ago, K-9 said:

So, how about with Daboll last season then? I submit he would have been better, but given our line, and the absence of Hill, Kelce, and Hunt, I don’t believe he would have put up 50 TDs and had an MVP year, either. 

 

Its a ridiculous supposition, anyway. A complete fantasy where our own individual biases and projections have to tell the tale. No basis in reality. So I’ll leave the “what ifs” to others. 

 

 

 

So you are specifically asking "what if"...........but at the same time you're not?  Because you are leaving the "what ifs" to those "others"?   

 

You are all sortsa' confused.

 

This message board is specifically for broad discussion like this.........I mean for 4 months the majority of the football offseason revolves around "what if" this player is drafted here or signs there.........and people find it entertaining.

 

[eball]

10 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He runs the zone freaking stretch. That is his scheme. Not his fault those above his head gave him a fat running back and insisted on him playing. 

 

Yeah, but that's the very reason he's not a good OC.  Anyone who forces his scheme upon players who can't execute it is doomed for failure.

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, eball said:

 

Yeah, but that's the very reason he's not a good OC.  Anyone who forces his scheme upon players who can't execute it is doomed for failure.

 

Dennison is a scheme coordinator. If Sean McDermott didn't know that when he hired him he ought to have. I said it before that very season and talked about "scheme arrogance" as a potential issue in accomodating Tyrod. As usual at the time I was called negative. Rick Dennison was an ordinary OC when he arrived here and an ordinary OC when he left here. He was absolutely not the reason the offense sucked. 

Edited June 24, 2019 by GunnerBill

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Dennison is a scheme cooardinator. If Sean McDermott didn't know that when he hired him he ought to have. I said it before that very season and talked about "scheme arrogance" as a potential issue in accomodating Tyrod. As usual at the time I was called negative. Rick Dennison was an ordinary OC when he arrived here and an ordinary OC when he left here. He was absolutely not the reason the offense sucked. 

 

Do you think Dennison could have had better success here if he had the offensive line talent we have now?

How much to you attribute to the offensive line mess to Castillo?

[dave mcbride]

16 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Dave...........all you EVER talk about is DVOA.......it is a nice stat that puts you in the ball park I believe.........but it's actually not universally accepted as the singular defining stat that you try to make it out to be.

 

Point differential is also a really good stat traditionally..............and that's because scoring is also a very telling stat........particularly on game day.

 

I like my offense to score points and my defense to prevent them.   

I get that, but at the margins points scored and allowed depends to an extent on field position starts, ST play, turnovers given up or causes by the other unit, etc. And then there’s strength of schedule — not every team is lucky enough to be the Patriots and get an automatic 6 games against perpetually inferior organizations.   DVOA does a good job of washing away all that noise, which is why I like it.

[Cripple Creek]

2 hours ago, eball said:

 

Yeah, but that's the very reason he's not a good OC.  Anyone who forces his scheme upon players who can't execute it is doomed for failure.

Rex?

[GunnerBill]

54 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Do you think Dennison could have had better success here if he had the offensive line talent we have now?

How much to you attribute to the offensive line mess to Castillo?

 

Yes, possbily, I think execution and personnel were both a bigger problem than scheme and playcalling. Castillo is a bad coach I think everyone knew that. Being given a fat running back when his scheme is predicated off the outside zone run didn't help either. All that being said Dennison isn't a creative, modern, imaginative OC so I doubt he was ever going to be the right guy long term in Buffalo if they want to become a team with a multiple, modern, offensive identity. 

Edited June 24, 2019 by GunnerBill

[Royale with Cheese]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yes, possbily, I think execution and personnel were both a bigger problem than scheme and playcalling. Castillo is a bad coach I think everyone knew that. Being given a fat running back when his scheme is predicated off the outside zone run didn't help either. All that being said Dennison isn't a creative, modern, imaginative OC so I doubt he was ever going to be the right guy long term in Buffalo if they want to become a team with a multiple, modern, offensive identity. 

 

What do you like about Daboll....assuming you like him?

[C.Biscuit97]

3 hours ago, eball said:

 

Yeah, but that's the very reason he's not a good OC.  Anyone who forces his scheme upon players who can't execute it is doomed for failure.

But McDermott hired him in the first place knowing that!  A lot of people (myself included) knew that offense was a terrible fit for Tyrod and this team.  

 

Yet as bad as Dennison was and I was told it couldn’t worse than him, our offense was even worse last year.  And Daboll has a worse nfl resume than Dennison.  

 

Its amazing the passes this new regime gets from some fans.  They have a ton to prove this year on offense.

49 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

Rex?

Very true. Rex murder a top 5 defense with his “scheme.”

[eball]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

But McDermott hired him in the first place knowing that!  A lot of people (myself included) knew that offense was a terrible fit for Tyrod and this team.  

 

Yet as bad as Dennison was and I was told it couldn’t worse than him, our offense was even worse last year.  And Daboll has a worse nfl resume than Dennison.  

 

Its amazing the passes this new regime gets from some fans.  They have a ton to prove this year on offense.

 

Dennison was a bad hire.  McD corrected his mistake after 2017.

 

With respect to Daboll -- how can anyone possibly evaluate him after last season, good or bad?  He had to start the season with Peterman at QB.  His OL was crappy all season.  Benjamin was a joke.  He then had a raw rookie QB.  If anything he deserves a pass for last year.  And while we're talking about 2017 -- did you not see marked improvement in the offense over the 2nd half of the season?  Does Daboll receive no credit for that?

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

What do you like about Daboll....assuming you like him?

 

I think he is an incomplete. But I liked the way he adapted as he went last year. I think he is less of a stickler for a certain scheme and is much more a guy who will build an offense as the talent and cohesion develops. His results as yet do not scream success, but I am still optimistic he might be the right guy at least for the next couple of years. 

[Cripple Creek]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

They have a ton to prove this year on offense.

 

No question, but, it's FO and offensive staff.  I choose to remain positive while skeptical.  I like much of what I've seen, but, it don't mean a thing if you don't score that thing.

[SoTier]

19 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Denison was OC in 17.  Daboll last year and this coming year.  The QBs in 17 vs. 18/19 are different.  New O line coach this year vs. the last two.  And so on.  What are you talking about?

 

I was responding to this quote from K-9: "If you really, honestly think Mahomes would have won the SB or pitched 50 TD passes with a stable of Deonte Thompson, Zay Jones, Charles Clay, and Shady with Rick Dennison as the architect, what can I say?"

 

This is essentially the pardigm on Mahomes vs Allen on TSW:  passing on Mahomes was okay because he would have been mediocre on the Bills because of the team around him, but Allen will flourish now that he's got some modest talent around him.  

 

My point is that if a special player like Mahomes would have struggled because the Bills wouldn't have put a good team around him, including coaching, how can we (posters on TSW) realistically expect Allen to flourish with the modest talent currently on the Bills team when he's so much more raw than Mahomes was as a rookie, and so needs so much more support? 

 

 

[Gugny]

9 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

I was responding to this quote from K-9: "If you really, honestly think Mahomes would have won the SB or pitched 50 TD passes with a stable of Deonte Thompson, Zay Jones, Charles Clay, and Shady with Rick Dennison as the architect, what can I say?"

 

This is essentially the pardigm on Mahomes vs Allen on TSW:  passing on Mahomes was okay because he would have been mediocre on the Bills because of the team around him, but Allen will flourish now that he's got some modest talent around him.  

 

My point is that if a special player like Mahomes would have struggled because the Bills wouldn't have put a good team around him, including coaching, how can we (posters on TSW) realistically expect Allen to flourish with the modest talent currently on the Bills team when he's so much more raw than Mahomes was as a rookie, and so needs so much more support? 

 

 

 

How are you comparing rookie Allen to rookie Mahomes when rookie Mahomes didn't play?

 

[K-9]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Dennison is a scheme coordinator. If Sean McDermott didn't know that when he hired him he ought to have. I said it before that very season and talked about "scheme arrogance" as a potential issue in accomodating Tyrod. As usual at the time I was called negative. Rick Dennison was an ordinary OC when he arrived here and an ordinary OC when he left here. He was absolutely not the reason the offense sucked. 

But he won a Super Bowl as an OC and would have made Mahomes a star just like Reid did in KC! 

[C.Biscuit97]

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

How are you comparing rookie Allen to rookie Mahomes when rookie Mahomes didn't play?

 

In his one start as a rookie, Mahomes had more passing yards than Allen in any of his starts this year.  Mahomes is special.