Whaley is an idiot.

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

What was the rank of the offense again under Whaley during that golden ONE season our defense was top 5? So how did we get stuck with also ran QBs instead of finding a franchise QB like we did with the current management team?

 

I'm agreeing with idiot.

 

Because it's been proven, over and over, how easy it is to just "find the right QB."

[row_33]

39 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Because it's been proven, over and over, how easy it is to just "find the right QB."

 

that's how most people think.

 

when they like someone then everything that person does is just fine, even up to committing mass murder

 

when they don't like someone they pick one incident and use it to tar over everything about the person.

 

it's quite amusing when it's on PPP...

 

 

[Real McClappy]

On 4/21/2019 at 8:40 PM, billieve420 said:

Leading up to the draft the were rumblings that Whaley liked Deshaun Watson.

 

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/2017/04/buffalo_bills_gm_doug_whaley_in_love_with_clemson_qb_deshaun_watson_report.html

 

If true and the Bills were drafting a QB they probably would have went with Watson over Mahomes anyway.

I would take his 6700 yds and 52 TDS in 22 games.

[Thurman#1]

23 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I was not wrong about Henderson because I specified  "on the first day of last season." He won the job, was the starter, and broke his ankle week 1 and went on IR.

 

I guess I disagree on 2013 really. It was Nix's name above the door but for me thinking that Nix was in total control of that draft a week and a half before he stood down is akin to believing that Whaley was in charge of the 2017 draft two days before being shown the door. I believe that Nix and Whaley were essentially co-GMing in that 2013 offseason. He was in on every Head Coach interview and every Quarterback draft visit. That is not the normal course of events for an assistant GM. I think Whaley gets some of the blame for EJ Manuel. I also think he gets some of the credit for what otherwise was a solid class.

 

And I never go on about the Patriots being bad drafters. They are consistently in 2-3 starters per class. They haven't drafted many stars recently (probably Tre Flowers back in 2015 is the closest they have got - though Derek Rivers and Isiah Wynn finally getting healthy might add a couple of names to that) but they are always picking late and they constantly stock their roster with solid starters and role players that fit their scheme.

 

 

Ah, I see that you said "on the first day of last season." Somehow I misread that as, "on the last day of last season." But though you weren't factually wrong, Henderson's job was by no means safe and he can't be said to have proved anything whatsoever. He could very easily have lost that job, and he could do so this year as well. I don't think you can count him as a starter in any way at this point. As I say, I really do wish him the best. My best friend is a doctor who specializes in Crohns and colitis and I know Henderson has fought through some tough breaks.

 

And I totally disagree with you linking of 2013 and 2017. We know Whaley wasn't in charge for the absolute simplest of reasons. It was in the paper about a week and a half after they hired McD that the Pegulas were wildly impressed and that he was now defacto in charge. Whereas it has never been reported anywhere official that Whaley was the co-GM, even to this day.

 

Does Whaley get some of the credit? Yeah, absolutely. He was the AGM. And yeah, he was in on every QB draft visit ... he'd been made head ... by Nix ... of a committee specifically formed to choose a QB. So he definitely gets co-credit for the Manuel decision. And yeah he was at the coaching interviews. So was Russ. Whaley was there because he was being groomed for the GM down the line. 

 

I'm glad we agree about the Pats not being bad drafters but it say something that they had much much better results those three years than we did though they were drafting much later and lost a first rounder to the Deflategate scandal. We lost a first-rounder too, but it was a very dumb voluntary move to give it up in the Watkins tradeup. During those three years they drafted Garoppolo, Flowers, James White, starting OLs Thuney and Mason, Malcom Brown, Elandon Roberts at ILB, and several guys who started for different teams last year.  Grugier-Hill started for Philly, Jordan Richards for Atlanta, Darryl Roberts with the Jets, not to mention NE's starting long-snapper for the last four years. That's ten plus the long-snapper, who can't be counted as a starter, really. Much better than us with far lower draft slots.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Thurman#1

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Ah, I see that you said "on the first day of last season." Somehow I misread that as, "on the last day of last season." But though you weren't factually wrong, Henderson's job was by no means safe and he can't be said to have proved anything whatsoever. He could very easily have lost that job, and he could do so this year as well. I don't think you can count him as a starter in any way at this point. As I say, I really do wish him the best. My best friend is a doctor who specializes in Crohns and colitis and I know Henderson has fought through some tough breaks.

 

And I totally disagree with you linking of 2013 and 2017. We know Whaley wasn't in charge for the absolute simplest of reasons. It was in the paper about a week and a half after they hired McD that the Pegulas were wildly impressed and that he was now defacto in charge. Whereas it has never been reported anywhere official that Whaley was the co-GM, even to this day.

 

Does Whaley get some of the credit? Yeah, absolutely. He was the AGM. And yeah, he was in on every QB draft visit ... he'd been made head ... by Nix ... of a committee specifically formed to choose a QB. So he definitely gets co-credit for the Manuel decision. And yeah he was at the coaching interviews. So was Russ. Whaley was there because he was being groomed for the GM down the line. 

 

I'm glad we agree about the Pats not being bad drafters but it say something that they had much much better results those three years than we did though they were drafting much later and lost a first rounder to the Deflategate scandal. We lost a first-rounder too, but it was a very dumb voluntary move to give it up in the Watkins tradeup. During those three years they drafted Garoppolo, Flowers, James White, starting OLs Thuney and Mason, Malcom Brown, Elandon Roberts at ILB, and several guys who started for different teams last year.  Grugier-Hill started for Philly, Jordan Richards for Atlanta, Darryl Roberts with the Jets, not to mention NE's starting long-snapper for the last four years. That's ten plus the long-snapper, who can't be counted as a starter, really. Much better than us with far lower draft slots.

 

Don't believe the 2013 thing because it wasn't in the paper if you like but to me it flies in the face of logic to believe that Buddy Nix was running that offseason and Whaley was just assisting. For example, the Jerry Hughes trade happened when Nix's name was above the door too..... but it has been reported that it was Grigson and Whaley who did the deal on the phone.

 

Nor was I counting Henderson as a starter. I was simply making a factual statement about the people who Whaley drafted who started on the opening day of last season. The problem with the people who think Whaley was awful is they only want to cherry pick statistics and dismiss ones that don't match their perspective. I think when you actually look at the whole picture of Doug Whaley's GMship it is a real mixed bag. He found some NFL football players in the draft but didn't find any stars. He found some real contributors in FA and off the waiver wire but didn't have a tight enough grip on the purse strings and his teams had a better win-loss record than all of his predecessors and as good as his successor but ultimately didn't every quite win enough.

[JohnC]

On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 8:33 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

Well no, I don't think Gilmore did play less hard for Buffalo (save for a few games in his last year under the "coaching" of Rex Ryan). I just think you hated the pick and undervalued him from thereon in, but we have done that debate to death and he is gone now so no benefit in re-running (he was also a clear Buddy Nix pick so not necessarily relevant to this discussion).

 

I agree with you that Whaley did not use the draft to put enough of the critical building blocks in place for a winning football team. But that is a subjective value judgment that goes beyond Ws and Ls.... if it is just Ws and Ls then at the moment Beane is at best the same as Whaley.

Beane took over shortly after McDermott was installed as the HC. Based on their actions the intention was to nearly completely rebuild the roster and restructure and rebalance the cap. It is unfair and unreasonable to use the W/L record in the first couple of years in a rebuild to compare to the prior regime that had a more established roster to work with. My biggest criticisms of Whaley relates to securing a franchise qb and his deficiency in building a roster. He had more of a player to player attitude toward roster building than a conceptual approach to building a roster than this current regime adheres to. 

 

Whaley was a below average to average  GM at best. Under his aegis this team was never going to get beyond being average. With this current tandem of McBeane at least you can see the potential to elevate the franchise beyond the mediocre level. 

[Elite Poster]

So when we like the trade down it's because McDermott was running the show and when we are allowed to say it was idiotic to pass on Mahomes it was Whaley's fault.

 

Gotta love it.

[GunnerBill]

15 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Beane took over shortly after McDermott was installed as the HC. Based on their actions the intention was to nearly completely rebuild the roster and restructure and rebalance the cap. It is unfair and unreasonable to use the W/L record in the first couple of years in a rebuild to compare to the prior regime that had a more established roster to work with. My biggest criticisms of Whaley relates to securing a franchise qb and his deficiency in building a roster. He had more of a player to player attitude toward roster building than a conceptual approach to building a roster than this current regime adheres to. 

 

Whaley was a below average to average  GM at best. Under his aegis this team was never going to get beyond being average. With this current tandem of McBeane at least you can see the potential to elevate the franchise beyond the mediocre level. 

 

My exact point to Bill was that looking purely at W-L record is a blunt instrument for judging a GM. All the other factors have to be taken into account.

[Bill from NYC]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

My exact point to Bill was that looking purely at W-L record is a blunt instrument for judging a GM. All the other factors have to be taken into account.

I understand your point.

 

Mine is that because you can point out a few players that he drafted who are "good" and a nice trade or 2 also is not proof that Whaley was a good GM. He was undisciplined, traded away our best picks, gave out ridiculous contracts, and neglected vital areas of the team to include quarterback.

 

He did however dress extremely well. The man had superb tastes in suits.

[JohnC]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

My exact point to Bill was that looking purely at W-L record is a blunt instrument for judging a GM. All the other factors have to be taken into account.

Whaley implanted his scouting mentality into his GM role. The scout evaluates players as individuals. The GM evaluates his players as pieces to a grand puzzle. I don't want to belabor this issue and dwell on DW as the source of all this franchise's problems because I recognize that he had to work with a buffoon corpulent head coach. That certainly was an albatross that no one could have overcome. (The hiring of Ryan was an inexplicable stupendous mistake by the owner that set this franchise back.) But an objective evaluation of Whaley is that he had a constricted scouting mentality in the GM position/role. A possessed a similar fatal flaw that country Buddy Nix had as a GM. In my mind Whaley, like Buddy,  was a checkers player playing in a chess tournament. He lacked the depth and broader perspective for the job he held. He was simply in over his head.  

[C.Biscuit97]

On 4/23/2019 at 7:38 AM, Bill from NYC said:

What you perhaps don't see in my posts is how I view drafts.

 

A case could be made that Gilmore, McKelvin, Watkins, and Whitner were "good" picks for the Bills because all were good players. None of them sucked; some were very good. The problem is, the team just kept on losing football games.

 

Whaley mortgaged the future of the Bills by trading for Watkins on a team. The team needed OL help and didn't have a top quarterback , thus making the trade idiotic. The Bills overlooked the QB position and blocking for decades. Whaley was part of this losing process. His other dumb moves were just too numerous to list. In the credit where its due dept., his trade for Hughes was a great one.

 

Getting rid of Whaley gave this team a chance to win. I much prefer Beane and imo, the jury is still out on McDermott.

I couldn't possibly disagree more my friend. The trick is to win football games. The results are in the won/loss record. Not many players on that list above ever took over a game and won it for the Buffalo Bills.

Under Whaley, we had a top 10 scoring offense and a top 5 defense.  But I’m sure he deserves none of that credit. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

8 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Under Whaley, we had a top 10 scoring offense and a top 5 defense.  But I’m sure he deserves none of that credit. 

 

....probably been under my rock too long, but I'm STILL not sure what kind of horsepower Whaley had as far as GM.......was he actually the final decision maker as far as personnel or more of a scout type as in "go find us this guy"?.....in current terms, do you see him on par with McBeane's apparent horsepower or less?...and as far as Mahomes, I'd bet some of the posting pundits saying NO to Patrick because he was coming from the leper like Air Raid and "no Air Raid QB EVER makes it in the NFL" have changed camps because of his year 2 success.....year 3 will be interesting if he performs similarly (cannot expect same as year 2 was extraordinary) or if opposing DC's now have an answer...

Edited April 24, 2019 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Whaley implanted his scouting mentality into his GM role. The scout evaluates players as individuals. The GM evaluates his players as pieces to a grand puzzle. I don't want to belabor this issue and dwell on DW as the source of all this franchise's problems because I recognize that he had to work with a buffoon corpulent head coach. That certainly was an albatross that no one could have overcome. (The hiring of Ryan was an inexplicable stupendous mistake by the owner that set this franchise back.) But an objective evaluation of Whaley is that he had a constricted scouting mentality in the GM position/role. A possessed a similar fatal flaw that country Buddy Nix had as a GM. In my mind Whaley, like Buddy,  was a checkers player playing in a chess tournament. He lacked the depth and broader perspective for the job he held. He was simply in over his head.  

 

That is certainly fair - but I still think all things considered the job he did was average, maybe a little below, in a difficult set of circumstances. I wouldn't call him a good GM and I do think he was probably promoted one level above his true level of competence but I wouldn't call him an idiot either.

[DrDawkinstein]

I'd put winning football games more on the coaching than the GM. The GM can only field the best on-paper roster as possible. It's the coach that needs to turn those ingredients into a real meal.

 

And we all know that Whaley never had a chance to hire his own coach, plus, he dealt with an incredible rate of turnover at all of the coaching positions. Which means major scheme changes every year.

 

We all know how poorly Rex did here. The sharp decline of the team was ALL on him. Yet some sit here and say Whaley was supposed to win those games? Makes no sense.

[Bill from NYC]

32 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Under Whaley, we had a top 10 scoring offense and a top 5 defense.  But I’m sure he deserves none of that credit. 

Yes, this is why they are beating down his door with job offers.

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

I'd put winning football games more on the coaching than the GM. The GM can only field the best on-paper roster as possible. It's the coach that needs to turn those ingredients into a real meal.

 

And we all know that Whaley never had a chance to hire his own coach, plus, he dealt with an incredible rate of turnover at all of the coaching positions. Which means major scheme changes every year.

 

We all know how poorly Rex did here. The sharp decline of the team was ALL on him. Yet some sit here and say Whaley was supposed to win those games? Makes no sense.

 

I'd happily blame everything on Rex - he was utterly clueless and wasted the best roster the Bills have fielded in my time as a fan in 2015 with some God awful coaching.

[Wsam4031]

this is all in hindsight. Last year before Mahomes went nuts lets be honest most people thought it was a good trade. I was one of them. I still am. Granted id love to have Mahomes seeing how good he is now but we got tre white and Allen out of it. As long as Allen doesn't flop out was a good trade for both teams. Time will tell

[Bill from NYC]

34 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That is certainly fair - but I still think all things considered the job he did was average, maybe a little below, in a difficult set of circumstances. I wouldn't call him a good GM and I do think he was probably promoted one level above his true level of competence but I wouldn't call him an idiot either.

Fair enough. Idiot is harsh. I think that he was a bad GM, but I do not think that he is an idiot.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

51 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Fair enough. Idiot is harsh. I think that he was a bad GM, but I do not think that he is an idiot.

I feel like this is one of those stupid political things where you trash the candidate you like and make excuses for one you like.  Imagine if Whaley;

 

- got hired after his friend got the head coaching job

- passed on Mahomes and Watson to draft a cb

- traded up for Zay Jones instead of staying put and taking JuJu or Kupp

- hired an OC that put Tyrod in a west coast passing offense

- traded multiple picks for Kelvin Benjamin after seeing how fat he was up close in Carolina

- thought Jordan Matthews could be a number 1 receiver

- entered the season with Allen and Peterman as his qbs

- signed Mike Tolbert

 

but since we like Beane we just ignore it.  Whaley was a much better GM than you will ever give him credit for.

[Bill from NYC]

8 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

 

I feel like this is one of those stupid political things where you trash the candidate you like and make excuses for one you like.  Imagine if Whaley;

 

- got hired after his friend got the head coaching job

- passed on Mahomes and Watson to draft a cb

- traded up for Zay Jones instead of staying put and taking JuJu or Kupp

- hired an OC that put Tyrod in a west coast passing offense

- traded multiple picks for Kelvin Benjamin after seeing how fat he was up close in Carolina

- thought Jordan Matthews could be a number 1 receiver

- entered the season with Allen and Peterman as his qbs

- signed Mike Tolbert

 

but since we like Beane we just ignore it.  Whaley was a much better GM than you will ever give him credit for.

I think that you have me confused with someone else. Do tell me when I ever heaped praise upon Beane, or especially McDermott. Imo both need to prove themselves. I will say that imo Beane is far more disciplined than Whaley ever thought about being.

 

You otoh are way more forgiving than I am in terms of the Bills. You have actually praised Jauron as a coach which to me is unthinkable. I'm not sure what you thought of Levy as a GM.  Now, Whaley is this great GM? Yikes!!!!! Where are their job offers CB? We both know that they are non-existent. I think that if I took stances like you I would probably be a happier person in general, but I just don't have it in me to proclaim that franchise killers such as Jauron, Levy (as GM) and Whaley were any good at their jobs.

 

 

That said, the dialogue is fun.

[SirAndrew]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

I'd put winning football games more on the coaching than the GM. The GM can only field the best on-paper roster as possible. It's the coach that needs to turn those ingredients into a real meal.

 

And we all know that Whaley never had a chance to hire his own coach, plus, he dealt with an incredible rate of turnover at all of the coaching positions. Which means major scheme changes every year.

 

We all know how poorly Rex did here. The sharp decline of the team was ALL on him. Yet some sit here and say Whaley was supposed to win those games? Makes no sense.

Rex was without question an unmitigated disaster in Buffalo. He was an alleged defensive guru who ruined that side of the ball. However, Whaley blew it with the Watkins trade, and not doing a better job of addressing the QB situation. There is no coach who was going to win with QB’s like Manuel/Orton/Taylor/Tuel etc. Only a dominant defense could overcome such poor QB play. Contrary to the belief of many, this team never had a truly dominant defense, even before Rex. The numbers looked good, but they were never really dominant. Beane has built his defense while adding decent pieces on the offensive side of the ball. He also went all in to find a potential franchise QB. That’s how it’s done, Whaley never had a clear vision. 

Edited April 24, 2019 by SirAndrew

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Wsam4031 said:

this is all in hindsight. Last year before Mahomes went nuts lets be honest most people thought it was a good trade. I was one of them. I still am. Granted id love to have Mahomes seeing how good he is now but we got tre white and Allen out of it. As long as Allen doesn't flop out was a good trade for both teams. Time will tell

 

Allen wasn't acquired with capital from the Mahomes trade.

 

They got Tre White and the pick they traded up for from Tremaine Edmunds out of the Mahomes trade.   So White and like 3/4 of Tremaine Edmunds for Mahomes.

 

There is zero chance those two will ever justify passing on a stud franchise QB if Mahomes remains that.    None whatsoever.    That's just the value of the position it dwarves every other position in value and impact on a franchise.

 

The hope is that passing on Mahomes to (a year later) choose Allen works out like passing on Marino to select Jim Kelly did.    

 

Yeah Marino is remembered as the greater QB in league scope and has the much greater stats and the longer NFL career that Kelly didn't...........but Kelly was ALSO a HOF'er and his team owned Marino for most of Kelly's NFL career.   

Edited April 24, 2019 by BADOLBILZ

[Rico]

Whaley is a definite failure. 4 years as assistant GM + 3 years as GM with no playoffs make this a bottom line fact.

 

You have to look at his press conferences for proof that he was an idiot, but i will admit that can be subjective.

[C.Biscuit97]

5 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I think that you have me confused with someone else. Do tell me when I ever heaped praise upon Beane, or especially McDermott. Imo both need to prove themselves. I will say that imo Beane is far more disciplined than Whaley ever thought about being.

 

You otoh are way more forgiving than I am in terms of the Bills. You have actually praised Jauron as a coach which to me is unthinkable. I'm not sure what you thought of Levy as a GM.  Now, Whaley is this great GM? Yikes!!!!! Where are their job offers CB? We both know that they are non-existent. I think that if I took stances like you I would probably be a happier person in general, but I just don't have it in me to proclaim that franchise killers such as Jauron, Levy (as GM) and Whaley were any good at their jobs.

 

 

That said, the dialogue is fun.

Agreed about the dialogue. ? we both have been here for a long time and just want to root for a consistently good team. But to counter:

 

1) it’s funny that you knew me as a homer because a lot of new posters think I’m a “hater.”  I think over the years, blindly defending this team I love has taken its toll on me.  I just can’t pretend anymore.  I didn’t like Allen as a qb for us so I can’t pretend I love him just because the Bills drafted him.  I hope he becomes good but I’ve been burned so many times.

 

2) I stand by the Jauron thing.  Look bad at those rosters.  It’s amazing we got 7 wins some years.  I think the majority of coaches are basically average.  So if Jauron had a real franchise qb, he would have been fine.  I feel McDermott has a lot of Jauron in him.  That said, like most coaches, if Allen is a franchise guy, he will magically become a better coach. 

 

3) never said Whaley was a great GM.  But that 2015 team has as much talent as any Bills team since the Bledsoe years.  And how do we know what jobs he has gotten?  How do we know he isn’t making more at his current XFL job than a step back nfl one?  Whaley gets a bad rap here just like Tim Murray did with the Sabres. 

 

4) I agree Whaley did take some big risks.  But has this regime really learned from this? MCBeane has traded up 3 times in the draft when arguably better players were available when they picked (time will tell).  They also traded multiple picks for Benjamin, who was a fat slob in Carolina when they were there. 

 

5) Ralph was forced by TD’s crappiness to hire someone he trusted in Marv.  It was a crazy decision but people seem to forget he drafted 2 players that will get HOF consideration (they won’t get in) in Lynch and Kyle Williams.  That’s a good haul. 

 

Sorry for the long post.  I just simply believe Whaley was a solid GM who had coaches forced on him.  I feel McBeane really haven’t proven anything yet and they get a pass for everything because they are new.  I want them to succeed but I like being consistent.  And as difficult as we make this, if Allen turns into a franchise qb, this regime will be successful.  If not, we will have Beane is an idiot posts in a couple of years.

[Rico]

5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Allen wasn't acquired with capital from the Mahomes trade.

 

They got Tre White and the pick they traded up for from Tremaine Edmunds out of the Mahomes trade.   So White and like 3/4 of Tremaine Edmunds for Mahomes.

 

There is zero chance those two will ever justify passing on a stud franchise QB if Mahomes remains that.    None whatsoever.    That's just the value of the position it dwarves every other position in value and impact on a franchise.

 

The hope is that passing on Mahomes to (a year later) choose Allen works out like passing on Marino to select Jim Kelly did.    

 

Yeah Marino is remembered as the greater QB in league scope and has the much greater stats and the longer NFL career that Kelly didn't...........but Kelly was ALSO a HOF'er and his team owned Marino for most of Kelly's NFL career.   

Marino vs. Kelly is how I can see Mahomes vs. Allen playing out. The one guy had all the great stats, especially in his first year as starting QB, but the other guy is the one you want on your team in a big game. 

[C.Biscuit97]

12 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

Rex was without question an unmitigated disaster in Buffalo. He was an alleged defensive guru who ruined that side of the ball. However, Whaley blew it with the Watkins trade, and not doing a better job of addressing the QB situation. There is no coach who was going to win with QB’s like Manuel/Orton/Taylor/Tuel etc. Only a dominant defense could overcome such poor QB play. Contrary to the belief of many, this team never had a truly dominant defense, even before Rex. The numbers looked good, but they were never really dominant. Beane has built his defense while adding decent pieces on the offensive side of the ball. He also went all in to find a potential franchise QB. That’s how it’s done, Whaley never had a clear vision. 

Huh?  I went to the GB game where they beat Aaron Rodgers without scoring an offensive td.  They broke Peyton Manning touchdown streak when he was still a beast.  That defense was dominant.  

 

2 minutes ago, Rico said:

Marino vs. Kelly is how I can see Mahomes vs. Allen playing out. The one guy had all the great stats, especially in his first year as starting QB, but the other guy is the one you want on your team in a big game. 

Yeah, Mahomes only had 3 tds and scored 31 points in the championship game.  Bum!

12 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Allen wasn't acquired with capital from the Mahomes trade.

 

They got Tre White and the pick they traded up for from Tremaine Edmunds out of the Mahomes trade.   So White and like 3/4 of Tremaine Edmunds for Mahomes.

 

There is zero chance those two will ever justify passing on a stud franchise QB if Mahomes remains that.    None whatsoever.    That's just the value of the position it dwarves every other position in value and impact on a franchise.

 

The hope is that passing on Mahomes to (a year later) choose Allen works out like passing on Marino to select Jim Kelly did.    

 

Yeah Marino is remembered as the greater QB in league scope and has the much greater stats and the longer NFL career that Kelly didn't...........but Kelly was ALSO a HOF'er and his team owned Marino for most of Kelly's NFL career.   

I know this is blasphemous but what if we had Marino instead of Kelly?  Those Bills team were much more loaded than the Fins.  The Fins kinda sucked minus Marino.  Kelly was a bad postseason Qb but his team was so good it didn’t really matter until the SB. 21 tds, 28 ints

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00/gamelog/post/

[Rico]

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Huh?  I went to the GB game where they beat Aaron Rodgers without scoring an offensive td.  They broke Peyton Manning touchdown streak when he was still a beast.  That defense was dominant.  

 

Yeah, Mahomes only had 3 tds and scored 31 points in the championship game.  Bum!

And Marino made it to the Super Bowl. 

 

Don’t forget, stats are for losers.

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, Rico said:

And Marino made it to the Super Bowl. 

 

Don’t forget, stats are for losers.

Yeah, it’s Mahomes’ fault.  Not the 2nd worst defense in the nfl or Dee Ford’s.  It’s the 2nd year qb who went back and forth with the best qb ever fault’s. 

 

Anyone who puts puts that loss on Mahomes is insane. 

[Rico]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

Yeah, it’s Mahomes’ fault.  Not the 2nd worst defense in the nfl or Dee Ford’s.  It’s the 2nd year qb who went back and forth with the best qb ever fault’s. 

 

Anyone who puts puts that loss on Mahomes is insane. 

No, as always I put it on their chump HC. All I’m saying is that 1 year doesn’t make Mahomes an all-time great and that I see better intangibles in Josh than I do in PM as far as being a leader and winner. Time will tell how it all pans out.

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, Rico said:

No, as always I put it on their chump HC. All I’m saying is that 1 year doesn’t make Mahomes an all-time great and that I see better intangibles in Josh than I do in PM as far as being a leader and winner. Time will tell how it all pans out.

I mean I hope you’re right but I don’t know anyone can question Mahomes’ intangibles. Dude was a star the second he stepped on the field and never looks rattled.  He lost a game where he scored 50 points!

[Rico]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

I mean I hope you’re right but I don’t know anyone can question Mahomes’ intangibles. Dude was a star the second he stepped on the field and never looks rattled.  He lost a game where he scored 50 points!

Are you old enough to have seen Dan Marino in 1984?  Unstoppable, a lock to be GOAT... until reality set it. He did make it into the HOF though, and will be remembered as one of the greatest regular season QB’s of all time. Mahomes last year reminds me of Marino in 1984, we’ll eventually see just how good he ends up being.

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, Rico said:

Are you old enough to have seen Dan Marino in 1984?  Unstoppable, a lock to be GOAT... until reality set it. He did make it into the HOF though, and will be remembered as one of the greatest regular season QB’s of all time. Mahomes last year reminds me of Marino in 1984, we’ll eventually see just how good he ends up being.

I was more of the Bills in the 90s but I think I know enough about Marino’s career.  I think it was more a problem if the lack of talent around him and the fact the Bills were in their division.  I think Marino single handedly carried that team.  

 

Put it this way, if Allen comes close to Mahomes’ year, would you have any questions about him? ?

[DrDawkinstein]

Marino's biggest problem was the complete lack of Running game for most of his career in Miami.

 

Kelly had Thurman and Davis to fall back on and take some of the heat off.

 

80s/90s Dolphins were a pass-only team.

[Fan in Chicago]

2 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

Fair enough. Idiot is harsh. I think that he was a bad GM, but I do not think that he is an idiot.

Thank you for saying this. By calling Whaley an idiot, Tipster19 dropped several levels in my eyes. 

We can all debate whether Whaley was or wasn't a competent GM but no way should he be called an idiot

[Rico]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

I was more of the Bills in the 90s but I think I know enough about Marino’s career.  I think it was more a problem if the lack of talent around him and the fact the Bills were in their division.  I think Marino single handedly carried that team.  

 

Put it this way, if Allen comes close to Mahomes’ year, would you have any questions about him? ?

QB stats are irrelevant to me, but if he put up as many wins with last year’s Bills roster, then no, I wouldn’t, until he showed me reason to think otherwise.

 

When it came to the playoffs, Marino often looked like a deer in headlights, then would put up some garbage stats against prevent defenses at the end of the game. Good times!

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

37 minutes ago, Rico said:

Whaley is a definite failure. 4 years as assistant GM + 3 years as GM with no playoffs make this a bottom line fact.

 

You have to look at his press conferences for proof that he was an idiot, but i will admit that can be subjective.

 

..STILL sounds like he hasn't made your Christmas list yet...............

[Lurker]

I can't believe this thread is still open...

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I can't believe this thread is still open...

 

...any idea when the "TOM DONOHOE WAS TURRIBLE" thread is supposed to start?.......

[C.Biscuit97]

37 minutes ago, Rico said:

QB stats are irrelevant to me, but if he put up as many wins with last year’s Bills roster, then no, I wouldn’t, until he showed me reason to think otherwise.

 

When it came to the playoffs, Marino often looked like a deer in headlights, then would put up some garbage stats against prevent defenses at the end of the game. Good times!

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MariDa00/gamelog/post/

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00/gamelog/post/

 

marino was better than Kelly in the postseason.  Kelly had the better team.  It’s the same thing with Aaron Rodgers.  He’s been better in the postseason than Brady but Brady has the better team.  As important as QB is, it’s hard for them to single handedly win playoff games.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Rico said:

Marino vs. Kelly is how I can see Mahomes vs. Allen playing out. The one guy had all the great stats, especially in his first year as starting QB, but the other guy is the one you want on your team in a big game. 

 

 

I don't know about big games.   He had moments like most good QB's and as he matured I think Kelly got better in the clutch but during the SB run he didn't stand out for his big game expertise.   They just simply out talented teams more often than not.    The Dolphins never had near the Bills talent from 1988-1994.  It was a mismatch.   I'm a huge Kelly fan but Marino is the type who will always be in discussion as a top 10 all time kinda' guy.   Kelly is not in that group.   The key for McBeane is that they need to put the better team around him the way Polian did with Kelly.     I'd rather win than care who had the better QB or passer etc..