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The Trump Shutdown


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3 hours ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Adam Schiff just gave a news conference (no one asked him about the now exposed lies in his memo) and he looked like someone just kicked his dog. 

 

Wonder why they were so excited to go to Brussels... 

 

 

It's a mystery.

 

 

Well, some reporter on SiriusXM's POTUS channel was claiming that Trump's letter wasn't accurate. Brussels was only a refueling stop. They may have been meeting with NATO officials, but it was just a brief stop.

 

Seriously, in the same breath the dipschiff contradicted herself twice.

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2 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Donald Trump asked that same question only to two seconds later claim that the technology behind ropes would foil a 30 foot drop. You could also toss a ladder on the other side and have someone climb down with a rope then place the ladder on the other side to make things easier for people who might not be able to use a rope. I don't doubt a wall would provide some impediment but is it honestly cost effective compared to other ways of border security? To build a wall that covers all of the border is going to cost more than 5.7 billion dollars. I am not opposed to limited fencing for more remote areas but a massive border wall would cost 20 plus billion dollars and still need billions of dollars of man power and technology behind it. 

 

I would rather put that 20 billion into hiring 10,000 border patrol agents for 10 years. implementing technology to secure the border, and do limited fencing in higher risk areas if that's something border experts would think is necessary. A wall across all of the border seems like a symbolic gesture devoid of any real impact. 

 

Well hell, that sells me. Why build a wall to stop/divert human traffickers, drug smugglers, and coyotes when it can be easily defeated by a lone guy with 60 feet of rope and a ton of time on his hands?!? Damn those clever slavers making their victims climb up and down a rope ladder!

 

Unfortunately Border Patrol is just so inept that they're never going to notice groups of people taking hours to climb up and down rope ladders.

 

Well ***** it, we shouldn't even try!

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2 hours ago, Foxx said:

 

not to mention that the CBP has stated repeatedly that a barrier is an effective means of deterrent.

 

What the ***** do they know?

 

Rope. Ladder.

Edited by Koko78
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2 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

 

This is the most hilarious straw man arguments I have ever heard. I claim that there is a better more cost effective way to handle securing the border and you basically equate that to supporting slavery and child molestation because I state that your solution is expensive, ineffective, and is still reliant on other forms of manpower that is subject to change. That's some Stephen Colbert level hilarity. Dam I knew this place was a Trump echo chamber but this one really made me laugh. "Hey I agree there is a problem at the border but I don't think a wall solves it and its not cost effective for the level of security it provides." "So you support sex trafficking?"

 

The other costs such as imminent domain are things the government can do but do we really want to exercise federal powers to take people's land for a border security measure that is massively expensive and isn't going to be effective enough without manpower behind it? Not to mention the other costs that would come with such a large construction project. 

Let's see what the Border Patrol has to say. They are the experts and know what is really needed. I'm sure you don't have a problem with that, do you?

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1 minute ago, 3rdnlng said:

Let's see what the Border Patrol has to say. They are the experts and know what is really needed. I'm sure you don't have a problem with that, do you?

 

Liberals think CBP and ICE are the Gestapo, so what they think doesn't count.  

 

But give them eight years, and CBP and ICE will be the good guys again, and the FBI will be back to being the Gestapo.

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12 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

Liberals think CBP and ICE are the Gestapo, so what they think doesn't count.  

 

But give them eight years, and CBP and ICE will be the good guys again, and the FBI will be back to being the Gestapo.

 

Is the actual Gestapo the Gestapo during this election cycle?

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1 hour ago, Koko78 said:

 

Well hell, that sells me. Why build a wall to stop/divert human traffickers, drug smugglers, and coyotes when it can be easily defeated by a lone guy with 60 feet of rope and a ton of time on his hands?!? Damn those clever slavers making their victims climb up and down a rope ladder!

 

Unfortunately Border Patrol is just so inept that they're never going to notice groups of people taking hours to climb up and down rope ladders.

 

Well ***** it, we shouldn't even try!

 

If you think it takes hours for willing people to go over a wall then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. People trafficking drugs will use tunnels and ports of entry and other methods that will not be impeded by a wall. People looking to cross the border will hire people to get them around the wall or over the wall in a matter of minutes. Its not about not trying but rather if you method is massively ineffective and expensive maybe you should look to other methods that get you more bang for your buck as opposed to something that can be a huge waste of time and money that would be better spent elsewhere. 

 

I also see you guys keep saying that CBP is in favor of a coast to coast wall spanning all of the border and that's outright not true. The CBP union has come out in favor of it but that's only after years and years of being against it as a waste of money. I don't know why they would come out in favor of it after years of being against it. If there is evidence as to why they did it and that it is supported by something evidence based I would reconsider my opinion. 

 

The actual agency has not come out in favor of an all encompassing border wall. They have come out in favor of a border wall system but have not endorsed a full out coast to coast wall. I am not against limited fencing in more remote areas. But an all out border all that encompasses is not only ineffective but tirelessly expensive and comes with other costs. 

 

https://qz.com/1525881/customs-and-border-protections-radical-new-approach-to-a-wall-the-boring-truth/

Edited by billsfan89
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2 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

If you think it takes hours for willing people to go over a wall then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. People trafficking drugs will use tunnels and ports of entry and other methods that will not be impeded by a wall. People looking to cross the border will hire people to get them around the wall or over the wall in a matter of minutes. Its not about not trying but rather if you method is massively ineffective and expensive maybe you should look to other methods that get you more bang for your buck as opposed to something that can be a huge waste of time and money that would be better spent elsewhere. 

 

I also see you guys keep saying that CBP is in favor of a coast to coast wall spanning all of the border and that's outright not true. The CBP union has come out in favor of it but that's only after years and years of being against it as a waste of money. I don't know why they would come out in favor of it after years of being against it. If there is evidence as to why they did it and that it is supported by something evidence based I would reconsider my opinion. 

 

The actual agency has not come out in favor of an all encompassing border wall. They have come out in favor of a border wall system but have not endorsed a full out coast to coast wall. I am not against limited fencing in more remote areas. But an all out border all that encompasses is not only ineffective but tirelessly expensive and comes with other costs. 

 

https://qz.com/1525881/customs-and-border-protections-radical-new-approach-to-a-wall-the-boring-truth/

 

1.) If you think scaling a 30 foot wall, then climbing 30 feet down, without being noticed, is a quick or easy process, then you're an idiot. If you think that a significant number of people doing it, without being noticed, is a quick or easy process, then you're a bigger idiot.

 

2.) Tunnels are nice, but take time, resources, oh and mining them is easily detectable if you are paying attention. Israel is pretty effective at detecting and detonating Hamas tunnels under their walls. Which, I'm sure you claim are ineffective. You think there might be a reason they find tunnels so quickly?

 

3.) No one is asking for an "all encompassing border wall", including CBP. If you've been paying even the slightest attention to anything that isn't NPC programming, you'd know that. There are long stretches of border that are easily patrolled and/or don't actually need walls because there are other natural obstacles in the way.

 

The whole point of the wall, as has been expressed numerous times by numerous posters, is to funnel traffic away from the remote border areas into places that are more easily defended.

 

4.) I love the "port of entry" talking point for drugs. You know, because statistics are kept of drugs smuggled through the wide swaths of open land. Did you know that 100% of drugs seized at a port of entry were seized at a port of entry?

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20 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

If you think it takes hours for willing people to go over a wall then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. People trafficking drugs will use tunnels and ports of entry and other methods that will not be impeded by a wall. People looking to cross the border will hire people to get them around the wall or over the wall in a matter of minutes. Its not about not trying but rather if you method is massively ineffective and expensive maybe you should look to other methods that get you more bang for your buck as opposed to something that can be a huge waste of time and money that would be better spent elsewhere. 

 

I also see you guys keep saying that CBP is in favor of a coast to coast wall spanning all of the border and that's outright not true. The CBP union has come out in favor of it but that's only after years and years of being against it as a waste of money. I don't know why they would come out in favor of it after years of being against it. If there is evidence as to why they did it and that it is supported by something evidence based I would reconsider my opinion. 

 

The actual agency has not come out in favor of an all encompassing border wall. They have come out in favor of a border wall system but have not endorsed a full out coast to coast wall. I am not against limited fencing in more remote areas. But an all out border all that encompasses is not only ineffective but tirelessly expensive and comes with other costs. 

 

https://qz.com/1525881/customs-and-border-protections-radical-new-approach-to-a-wall-the-boring-truth/

El Chapo’s already working on a solution 

DistantPastelArgusfish-size_restricted.g

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WELL: Shock Poll: Trump Gains 19 Points with Latino Voters During Border Wall Shutdown. 

 

“in the latest NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll released Thursday, President Donald Trump may have suffered some among Republicans overall, but he saw a huge point gain in a different demographic breakdown, and an unexpected one by conventional wisdom. In early December, the poll had Trump’s approval rating among Latino adults at 31%.

 

The results from the poll released Thursday show the president’s job approval among Latino adults at 50%. That is an astonishing 19 point swing. Prior results had less variance, with Latino approval numbers at 36% in their November 1st findings. It was 27% in the pollster’s mid-October survey. The January poll was conducted during the government shutdown over border wall funding, most notably. So the big swing among Latinos was while Trump and Democrats faced off over funding for the wall.”

 

.

 
Edited by B-Man
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3 minutes ago, B-Man said:

WELL: Shock Poll: Trump Gains 19 Points with Latino Voters During Border Wall Shutdown. 

 

“in the latest NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll released Thursday, President Donald Trump may have suffered some among Republicans overall, but he saw a huge point gain in a different demographic breakdown, and an unexpected one by conventional wisdom. In early December, the poll had Trump’s approval rating among Latino adults at 31%.

 

The results from the poll released Thursday show the president’s job approval among Latino adults at 50%. That is an astonishing 19 point swing. Prior results had less variance, with Latino approval numbers at 36% in their November 1st findings. It was 27% in the pollster’s mid-October survey. The January poll was conducted during the government shutdown over border wall funding, most notably. So the big swing among Latinos was while Trump and Democrats faced off over funding for the wall.”

 

.

 

 

The Democrats are so blinded by believing races vote in blocks that they just can't understand that legal immigrants absolutely HATE illegals.

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35 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

I also see you guys keep saying that CBP is in favor of a coast to coast wall spanning all of the border and that's outright not true.

 

Literally no one has said that. Not even once. 

6 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Yeah.  

 

"Israel is slowly but inexorably turning into a conservative theocracy while the Diaspora is largely dedicated to liberal democracy."

 

Being anti-Israel is so hot right now

 

Mugatu-So-Hot-Right-Now.jpg

 

All the coolest kids are doing it in the progressive left.

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39 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

If you think it takes hours for willing people to go over a wall then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. People trafficking drugs will use tunnels and ports of entry and other methods that will not be impeded by a wall. People looking to cross the border will hire people to get them around the wall or over the wall in a matter of minutes. Its not about not trying but rather if you method is massively ineffective and expensive maybe you should look to other methods that get you more bang for your buck as opposed to something that can be a huge waste of time and money that would be better spent elsewhere. 

 

I also see you guys keep saying that CBP is in favor of a coast to coast wall spanning all of the border and that's outright not true. The CBP union has come out in favor of it but that's only after years and years of being against it as a waste of money. I don't know why they would come out in favor of it after years of being against it. If there is evidence as to why they did it and that it is supported by something evidence based I would reconsider my opinion. 

 

The actual agency has not come out in favor of an all encompassing border wall. They have come out in favor of a border wall system but have not endorsed a full out coast to coast wall. I am not against limited fencing in more remote areas. But an all out border all that encompasses is not only ineffective but tirelessly expensive and comes with other costs. 

 

https://qz.com/1525881/customs-and-border-protections-radical-new-approach-to-a-wall-the-boring-truth/

Maybe we should study the issue for many decades and never do anything.

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4 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Literally no one has said that. Not even once. 

 

Being anti-Israel is so hot right now

 

Mugatu-So-Hot-Right-Now.jpg

 

All the coolest kids are doing it in the progressive left.

You can shame it what you want.  Isreal has become a theocracy... An apartheid state.  Shame on them.

 

Honestly... You thing the US can build this wall and not over-run 4-5x the cost?  NOT turn it into a boondoggle?  Just the legal battles alone will take years.

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Just now, ExiledInIllinois said:

You can shame it what you want.  Isreal has become a theocracy... An apartheid state.  Shame on them.

 

Honestly... You thing the US can build this wall and not over-run 4-5x the cost?  NOT turn it into a boondoggle?  Just the legal battles alone will take years.

 

I'm just pointing out the trend in rhetoric. It's funny watching the programming become talking points down here in the dungeon. Predictable too.

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6 hours ago, Chef Jim said:

 

If you're living paycheck to paycheck because you're paying back your student loan you paid too much for college, got the wrong degree or your parents didn't have the forethought to think about the cost of raising and educating a child before they had one. 

 

Thanks for responding even though you missed the point.

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11 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

ccd50262bf0174d942a4478e3d277e287f5640ef


Well, that would explain Nancy stomping back to her room to write up articles of impeachment in crayon, and then sticking it on the side of the fridge in the Congressional lunch room for all to admire her work.

(I honestly will not be shocked if that is her next move.)

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5 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:


Well, that would explain Nancy stomping back to her room to write up articles of impeachment in crayon, and then sticking it on the side of the fridge in the Congressional lunch room for all to admire her work.

(I honestly will not be shocked if that is her next move.)

 

I'd respect that, if she wrote it in orange crayon.

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10 hours ago, SoCoBills said:

 

First and foremost I want to thank you and let you know that I 100% respect your opinion as you've voiced your concerns in an intelligent and fair minded and respectful manner. A lot of people on here seem incapable of having any real political discourse. 

 

My entire Facebook feed are friends and coworkers who work for the government. Many of them voted for Trump and I'd say 95% of the people I know that are government employees blame Trump for the shutdown even if they want the wall. Out of the people I know who are openly Trump supporters and government employees I'd say 3/4's of them fully blame Trump for the shutdown.

 

I have one female friend in particular who is a strong Trump supporter that I work alongside daily and she even said Trump needs to open the government. 

 

As for your question I'd mostly hold the line because if Trump gets his way at this could set an extremely dangerous precident. Unlike with the healthcare shutdown this is a manufactured crisis. It is wildly unpopular Nationwide and it is littered with propaganda. Before Democrats seized control of the house it didn't have the votes to get through and it certainly doesn't now. How Mitch has behaved with not opening the floor to vote as if Trump is a supreme ruler of a totalitarian country worries me. The impact has gone far beyond wall or no wall. Democrats in the establishment aren't any better. Say if an establishment  Democrat wins in 2020 and the shutdown gets Trump his wall you don't think that President and the Dems in the Senate would do the same thing for even longer next time to get what they want? What if Trump gets what he wants and wins in 2020 and wants some new campaign promise fulfilled? You don't think he will do this again?

 

 

If it were me negotiating as a Democrat from the beginning I'd have first compiled facts like a business pitch. I'd visit the entire border and speak with ice and border agents top to bottom. I'd have them identify key areas of need for fencing and personnel and technology. I'd have pitched to the President we can add some border fencing here, here and here per the reports of border experts and use this money for this, this and this. 

 

In the end Trump could say he achieved getting more border fencing along more of the border and then lie like he does in 2019 and claim the decreased immigration numbers are his doing even though they've been on the decline for decades and is at a 46 year low and Democrats can get something in exchange whether it be DACA, better paths to citizenship or something else. 

 

I think part of the reason this didn't happen other than incompetence from both sides is the propaganda nature of Trump's entire Presidency. Never in my life have I witnessed a following where people don't care about what a guy says, whether it's truth or lie, or whether he said the exact opposite thing just a few days prior. If the Democrats give Trump even a mile of fencing Trump is likely to call that mile of fencing a wall and claim the rest of the wall is already being built and even if easily debunked somehow his base will believe it and then in 2020 it will happen again. The agreement would have to contain a lot of language and details including some sort of guarantee that if you give him some now he won't go asking for the moon a bit down the road. 

If your friends listened to Trump and supported him during the last election, it's odd that they would turn on him now. The groundswell that resulted in his improbable election was based in large part on getting certain things accomplished, and dealing with the border was one of those key issues.  I understand if they are government employees directly impacted by the shutdown, and I understand how you feel personally, but to sit and watch this silly game continue and lay it all at the feet of Trump makes me wonder what they were hoping for to begin with.

 

I admire the strength of your conviction on preferring to stay out of work v. the dems negotiating further on the wall funding.  I don't understand it, given your perilous financial condition, and in light of the fact that it's not all that long ago most of those refusing to give an inch were willing to go a mile.  Honestly, it seems like the John McCain approach, all thumbs up and hard charging until something actually can be accomplished and then the maverick is just another establishment govt gelding.   

 

In response to your questions, yes, I think it's highly likely that Trump would push the envelope further if he wins this battle on funding. Yes, i think if he wins this skirmish it will play well with virtually everyone but the open border crowd.  That is his job. I think the dems by and large could give less than a crap about sensible border security and less than that about people assaulted or killed as a result of this crisis. I think a fair amount of republicans are complicit in it as well, and I think many, many people in positions of power are rewarded handsomely for looking the other way.  I think any dem appearing at the border with ice officials would be banished to a political gulag. 

 

As for people supporting Trump,I say the same thing over and over and have yet to hear a reasonable reply.  Every president and politician lies, distorts or morphs what he/she says.  Every single one. You mentioned health care, and Obama lied at just about every turn on the ACA. And while many complained about it, the simple fact is that while we were on the losing end, this boondoggle blows chunks.  When it was shown to suck, the architects including BO just changed the narrative, moved the goal posts and lied.   Hell, and correct me if I'm wrong...but didn't Barrack Obama and Hillary Clinton state emphatically that GWB manufactured evidence and sent young Americans to fight and die in Iraq?  That sounds an awful lot like a  war criminal to me.  How did that play out?  What we hear now is how they have become best friends over cough drops at Barbara's funeral...best cough drop buddies...and Bill and HW were pals too. Liars...all. 

 

i have no interest in squabbling over who's liar is better than someone else's. I was very interested in the SC nominee, and watched as the opposition party attempted a very public and contrived late term abortion on a guy who just happened to be conservative.  The oppo party in that case runs from Obama on down.  Is THAT the party with the moral high ground?  When and if RBG is to be replaced by Trump, regardless of who the nominee is the battle will be escalated.  Amy Barret? Watch for the story about indiscretions when she was babysitting.  I'd think the safe play is diddling with the hubby, but honestly that seems too pedestrian for today's modern dem party.  Who knows what they come up with--but it will no doubt be a doozy.  I also trust that the judges being appointed to the federal courts are conservative, though much of my impression on that comes from what I read. Could be disappointed I suppose.  I particularly enjoy deregulation, the work that's been done on the economy and unemployment, and the tax cuts benefited me and people I care about directly. 

 

Anyway, I digressed there a bit. Speaking only for me, it's more about the truths he tells than anything else.  Best of luck to you and your family.  

Edited by leh-nerd skin-erd
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3 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Open borders?  Like Canada too?  

 

If you define open borders as "anybody, anytime" then do you support the concept of the nation state?

Yes.

 

Open border, more like relaxed.  Like how it used to be:

 

Customs Agent: "Citizenship?"

Me: "US"

CA: "Purpose for coming to Canada?"

Me: "Bingo and Chinese food."

CA: "Have a nice time!"

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8 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Yes.

 

Open border, more like relaxed.  Like how it used to be:

 

Customs Agent: "Citizenship?"

Me: "US"

CA: "Purpose for coming to Canada?"

Me: "Bingo and Chinese food."

CA: "Have a nice time!"

Bingo shark versus Canadian synapses.  Nice.

 

There is a difference between your scenario and moving in.

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23 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Yes.

 

Open border, more like relaxed.  Like how it used to be:

 

Customs Agent: "Citizenship?"

Me: "US"

CA: "Purpose for coming to Canada?"

Me: "Bingo and Chinese food."

CA: "Have a nice time!"

But this isn't what we have, we have Checkpoint Charlie.  Before the whole shebang, we often have human behavior technology or some such thing.  Before/during "Citzenship?" comes profiling.  Where appropriate, profiling leads to "Papers please..." and where appropriate..."Sir...pull over there where my associates will remove key structural/non-structural components from your vehicle." .  And, to boot, if you opted to hop out of the vehicle and bypass the pesky Customs fellow and skip the whole fandango, they are often less kind in inquiring about your plans. 

 

we do agree though that "bingo and Chinese food" works virtually every time. Some sort of ghost in the machine. 

 

 

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