GoBills808 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 Just now, LSHMEAB said: Penalties? I think we’re worst in offensive penalty yardage though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSHMEAB Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 1 minute ago, GoBills808 said: I think we’re worst in offensive penalty yardage though. But maybe the Cardinals have committed slightly more penalties on first down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 Just now, LSHMEAB said: But maybe the Cardinals have committed slightly more penalties on first down. Possible I guess. Just looked funny on the face of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 Does it really matter? Arizona's offense sucks. Bills offense sucks a little worse. I couldn't really care less about Arizona. I care about the Bills. The Bills offense is the worst offense I can ever remember watching. Win or lose doesn't really matter to me. I expected to win 3 to 6 games going into the season. It would be nice to see this offense at least put a couple TDs in the games. At this point at least a few good drives together. They cant even do that anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted October 25, 2018 Author Share Posted October 25, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctk232 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 When did this become about the offense? Don't we have enough threads about how terrible the offense is? I was curious to see what people were saying about our Defense after a game (regardless of the score) where we couldn't force any turnovers, nor get pressure on the QB and how it looked as a unit. In a likely fruitless attempt to bring this back to the Defense, people claiming it's an elite unit seem too early to the party. I like where the unit is headed, and we're about a year or two of development within the current roster and two to three more starting talent level players from having a truly elite unit that can keep us in games where we don't force turnovers, and where we can get better pressure on the QB week in and week out regardless of the OL we're facing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted October 25, 2018 Author Share Posted October 25, 2018 4 minutes ago, ctk232 said: When did this become about the offense? Don't we have enough threads about how terrible the offense is? I was curious to see what people were saying about our Defense after a game (regardless of the score) where we couldn't force any turnovers, nor get pressure on the QB and how it looked as a unit. In a likely fruitless attempt to bring this back to the Defense, people claiming it's an elite unit seem too early to the party. I like where the unit is headed, and we're about a year or two of development within the current roster and two to three more starting talent level players from having a truly elite unit that can keep us in games where we don't force turnovers, and where we can get better pressure on the QB week in and week out regardless of the OL we're facing. The Colts OL dominated the game to neutralize the Bills front 7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctk232 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said: The Colts OL dominated the game to neutralize the Bills front 7. Fair enough, meant more of a long term trend analysis. The extreme polarity of our defensive performances is what gets to me - turnovers are great and yes are part of the game, but without them our defense can't stop a running nose. So I have a difficult time agreeing this unit is either "elite" or a "top unit" in the league. And I'm honestly wondering how long it can last... To extrapolate, tangentially, in a year where offensive positions are of much greater need, in a defense heavy draft, I wonder how this unit can continue to be built without regressing in performance, or sacrificing our needs on offense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 2 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said: Someone should tell Michael Giardi he's wrong on those stats. Cardinals are lowest in league at 220 YPG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted October 25, 2018 Author Share Posted October 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, ctk232 said: Fair enough, meant more of a long term trend analysis. The extreme polarity of our defensive performances is what gets to me - turnovers are great and yes are part of the game, but without them our defense can't stop a running nose. So I have a difficult time agreeing this unit is either "elite" or a "top unit" in the league. And I'm honestly wondering how long it can last... To extrapolate, tangentially, in a year where offensive positions are of much greater need, in a defense heavy draft, I wonder how this unit can continue to be built without regressing in performance, or sacrificing our needs on offense. They have have expolited some of the weaker offensive lines like Houston in week 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 The good news is the defense bounced back after getting run over last week.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuvian Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 to be truthful our D looked really good last night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted November 7, 2018 Author Share Posted November 7, 2018 Week 9 DVOA Ratings | Football Outsiders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real McClappy Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 (edited) Well it could be worse I guess. The Bills have one side of the ball in check at least to build off of. But this WORST OFFENSIVE DVOA THROUGH 9 GAMES, 1986-2018 Year Team DVOA 2018 BUF -53.9% 2005 SF -53.0% 2002 HOU -47.0% 2010 CAR -45.9% 2013 JAX -44.5% 1992 SEA -44.3% 2007 SF -43.8% 1996 STL -43.0% 2009 OAK -42.7% 1992 IND -39.9% 2006 OAK -39.7% 2004 MIA -38.6% Edited November 7, 2018 by Real McCoy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Real McCoy said: Well it could be worse I guess. The Bills have one side of the ball in check at least to build off of. But this WORST OFFENSIVE DVOA THROUGH 9 GAMES, 1986-2018 Year Team DVOA 2018 BUF -53.9% 2005 SF -53.0% 2002 HOU -47.0% 2010 CAR -45.9% 2013 JAX -44.5% 1992 SEA -44.3% 2007 SF -43.8% 1996 STL -43.0% 2009 OAK -42.7% 1992 IND -39.9% 2006 OAK -39.7% 2004 MIA -38.6% I feel like this has been a trend with Bills teams for a while. They are either good to great on defense or average to awful on offense. Even average play by the this years team would have gotten them at least 1 or 2 more wins this year. And it's usually the same during the games. Defense keeps them in the game then gets worn down and end up getting crushed late in the game. Lucky the offense has been helping with the "getting crushed" part and I can take care of other needs around the house before half time. Edited November 7, 2018 by The Wiz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RalphWilson'sNewWar Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 15 minutes ago, Real McCoy said: Well it could be worse I guess. The Bills have one side of the ball in check at least to build off of. But this WORST OFFENSIVE DVOA THROUGH 9 GAMES, 1986-2018 Year Team DVOA 2018 BUF -53.9% 2005 SF -53.0% 2002 HOU -47.0% 2010 CAR -45.9% 2013 JAX -44.5% 1992 SEA -44.3% 2007 SF -43.8% 1996 STL -43.0% 2009 OAK -42.7% 1992 IND -39.9% 2006 OAK -39.7% 2004 MIA -38.6% I just don’t know how you build around a defense anymore. It’s just so hard to get 11-16 guys to play consistently at a high level for 48-64 games. Along with injuries, fatigue, familiarity and free agency. there have been some stellar defenses in the last 5-6 seasons but most them came and went in a blink of eye it seems like. 49ers Defense had a 2 season window Legion of Boom? What? 3 season window? Jaguars? 1 season? Broncos? 1-2 Seasons? defense is just not reliable IMO to be built upon for a long haul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 On 10/25/2018 at 12:39 AM, GoBills808 said: How do the Bills rank last in yards per play on first down but second in yards needed on 2nd down? Irrational OP. That’s how. Every year people talk about DVOA and every year the Bills manage to suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 2 hours ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said: I just don’t know how you build around a defense anymore. It’s just so hard to get 11-16 guys to play consistently at a high level for 48-64 games. Along with injuries, fatigue, familiarity and free agency. there have been some stellar defenses in the last 5-6 seasons but most them came and went in a blink of eye it seems like. 49ers Defense had a 2 season window Legion of Boom? What? 3 season window? Jaguars? 1 season? Broncos? 1-2 Seasons? defense is just not reliable IMO to be built upon for a long haul. Yes lomg term advanced metrics bear this out...the correlation year to year is much higher for offense than it is for defense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 3 hours ago, The Wiz said: I feel like this has been a trend with Bills teams for a while. They are either good to great on defense or average to awful on offense. Even average play by the this years team would have gotten them at least 1 or 2 more wins this year. And it's usually the same during the games. Defense keeps them in the game then gets worn down and end up getting crushed late in the game. Lucky the offense has been helping with the "getting crushed" part and I can take care of other needs around the house before half time. Sunday, in a game where the Bears had a TOP of under 26 minutes, the Bills D still gave up 27 points (their average for the season, by the way). In the second Q they gave up 14 (the Bills Offense gave up the other 14). They weren't "worn down". The jags have a bad offset, yet their D is far better than the Bills. Why aren't they getting so when down that they give up 27 a game? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Sunday, in a game where the Bears had a TOP of under 26 minutes, the Bills D still gave up 27 points (their average for the season, by the way). In the second Q they gave up 14 (the Bills Offense gave up the other 14). They weren't "worn down". The jags have a bad offset, yet their D is far better than the Bills. Why aren't they getting so when down that they give up 27 a game? Because at some point you just give up. Worn down doesn't always mean physically. Also can you give me the bills TOP in the first half. If it's over 7 minutes I'd be amazed. Edited November 7, 2018 by The Wiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 4 minutes ago, The Wiz said: Because at some point you just give up. Worn down doesn't always mean physically. Also can you give me the bills TOP in the first half. If it's over 7 minutes I'd be amazed. When the offense keeps turning the ball over on your own side of the 50 (or just flat allow a opposing defense to score) even a good defense will get exposed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 9 hours ago, The Wiz said: Because at some point you just give up. Worn down doesn't always mean physically. Also can you give me the bills TOP in the first half. If it's over 7 minutes I'd be amazed. Be amazed: it was 12:39 minutes. If they gave up in the 2nd Q, they aren't a good D. 9 hours ago, John from Riverside said: When the offense keeps turning the ball over on your own side of the 50 (or just flat allow a opposing defense to score) even a good defense will get exposed When the offense gives up 2 defensive TDs on 3 drives, the D is sitting on the bench a long time. It's the Offense that had to keep trotting out there. Again, better defenses (Jags, even Titans) keep the opposing score low, even if their offense struggles. It's a 4 Q game and you can't convincingly explain away the 27 ppg as evidence of a good D. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timekills17 Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 (edited) That's why PPG isn't the measure of a "good D". The Bears' average drive starting field position was OUR 48 yard line. For the season, the Bills offense is 8th in starting field position. EIGHTH. The D puts the offense in good position game after game and they STILL can't score. The Bills offense is #32 in points per drive, #24 in average TOs per drive, and their net yards per drive is -8.75. That minus sign isn't a typo. From a field position standpoint they would do better punting on first down. Literally. You can't blame the defense for points against when your offense allows the other team for the season to start their average drive at their 40 yard line, and every time your offense gets the ball you're actually giving the team an extra 9 yards. Edited November 7, 2018 by timekills17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 37-48 Combined Records of Top 10 DVOA Defences 52-29 Combined record of top 10 DVOA Offences Gee, wonder what side of the ball you want to dominate 2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: Be amazed: it was 12:39 minutes. If they gave up in the 2nd Q, they aren't a good D. When the offense gives up 2 defensive TDs on 3 drives, the D is sitting on the bench a long time. It's the Offense that had to keep trotting out there. Again, better defenses (Jags, even Titans) keep the opposing score low, even if their offense struggles. It's a 4 Q game and you can't convincingly explain away the 27 ppg as evidence of a good D. this may not be a fair comparison..but I think we all agree the first six quarters of this season were an aberration and a throwaway. Next you need to take into account starting field position, score, time of the game, level of competition etc..all of which goes into a DVOA formula. Nothing is even going to exact..but DVOA is about as close of an accurate measure as I have seen in the last 20 years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gun Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 15 hours ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said: I just don’t know how you build around a defense anymore. It’s just so hard to get 11-16 guys to play consistently at a high level for 48-64 games. Along with injuries, fatigue, familiarity and free agency. there have been some stellar defenses in the last 5-6 seasons but most them came and went in a blink of eye it seems like. 49ers Defense had a 2 season window Legion of Boom? What? 3 season window? Jaguars? 1 season? Broncos? 1-2 Seasons? defense is just not reliable IMO to be built upon for a long haul. Yup, compared to offense The Pats offense has been scoring at will since 2001 Saints seems to score at will since whenever Falcons score all the time since Ryan has been there Rams lighting it up since last year and no slow down in sight. Chiefs scored a lot for years with A Smith and score even more with Mahomes Eagles had to outscore Pats in SB Defense doesn't win schitt anymore Bedrock defensive football isn't the way to go in todays NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 20 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: 37-48 Combined Records of Top 10 DVOA Defences 52-29 Combined record of top 10 DVOA Offences Gee, wonder what side of the ball you want to dominate this may not be a fair comparison..but I think we all agree the first six quarters of this season were an aberration and a throwaway. Next you need to take into account starting field position, score, time of the game, level of competition etc..all of which goes into a DVOA formula. Nothing is even going to exact..but DVOA is about as close of an accurate measure as I have seen in the last 20 years. Hard to say. My point tis that having a bad offense is not an excuse for your to give up 27 a game (not all in the first 6 Qs of the season). Other teams are able to achieve this. But you're right in general, who cares if the D is good. It's all about the offense. This is why I think the Bills are doomed with McD in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: Be amazed: it was 12:39 minutes. If they gave up in the 2nd Q, they aren't a good D. When the offense gives up 2 defensive TDs on 3 drives, the D is sitting on the bench a long time. It's the Offense that had to keep trotting out there. Again, better defenses (Jags, even Titans) keep the opposing score low, even if their offense struggles. It's a 4 Q game and you can't convincingly explain away the 27 ppg as evidence of a good D. 27 ppg?!?!?! How about we try to limit teams to less than 27 points in the first half? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Jauronimo said: 27 ppg?!?!?! How about we try to limit teams to less than 27 points in the first half? From what I read here, they are too tired or bored or dispirited to be expected to do that. But they are STILL a "top Defense"!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 29 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: From what I read here, they are too tired or bored or dispirited to be expected to do that. But they are STILL a "top Defense"!! Too many 3 and outs? What are the heat maps saying?!?! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Jauronimo said: 27 ppg?!?!?! How about we try to limit teams to less than 27 points in the first half? it is pretty hard to overcome turnovers on your side of the 50....of which there were many Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 33 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: it is pretty hard to overcome turnovers on your side of the 50....of which there were many It shouldn't be when its an established part of the plan. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, Jauronimo said: It shouldn't be when its an established part of the plan. Im sorry I dont understand what you are trying to say.....can you explain it further? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSHMEAB Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 5 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: Be amazed: it was 12:39 minutes. If they gave up in the 2nd Q, they aren't a good D. When the offense gives up 2 defensive TDs on 3 drives, the D is sitting on the bench a long time. It's the Offense that had to keep trotting out there. Again, better defenses (Jags, even Titans) keep the opposing score low, even if their offense struggles. It's a 4 Q game and you can't convincingly explain away the 27 ppg as evidence of a good D. Stop ruining a good narrative with facts! The defense is fixed and Sean McDermott is a mastermind on that side of the ball. Just need to work on the O! This defense is middle of the pack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDingus Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 3 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said: Stop ruining a good narrative with facts! The defense is fixed and Sean McDermott is a mastermind on that side of the ball. Just need to work on the O! This defense is middle of the pack. I wouldn't say "mastermind." When I hear that word, I think of what Schwartz was able to do with our defense. Now THAT was a fun defense to watch, even when our offense look anemic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 40 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: it is pretty hard to overcome turnovers on your side of the 50....of which there were many No there weren't. There were 4 turnovers---2 of which were immediately returned for TDs. Both of the Bears 2Q Offensive TDs came after Bills punts. Later, their third TD (and one of their FGs) came after Bills scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Just now, Mr. WEO said: No there weren't. There were 4 turnovers---2 of which were immediately returned for TDs. Both of the Bears 2Q Offensive TDs came after Bills punts. Later, their third TD (and one of their FGs) came after Bills scores. This absolutely does not strengthen your arguement......it makes it worse 14 points that the defense could do absolutely nothing about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSHMEAB Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 1 minute ago, BigDingus said: I wouldn't say "mastermind." When I hear that word, I think of what Schwartz was able to do with our defense. Now THAT was a fun defense to watch, even when our offense look anemic. Yep! Schwartz had a legitimately elite unit. I don't see that here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 9 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: Im sorry I dont understand what you are trying to say.....can you explain it further? As you have repeatedly described, being historically bad is part of the plan. Having the worst offense and worst QB play in the modern era is part of the plan. Turning the ball over inside the 50 is part of the plan. Why would a top defense have trouble with a short field when everything is going to plan? McDermott and Beane have been preparing the defense for it all camp and preseason. Its all part of the plan. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 1 minute ago, John from Riverside said: This absolutely does not strengthen your arguement......it makes it worse 14 points that the defense could do absolutely nothing about No. I've been pretty clear all along that the problem is that they gave up 27 points. It wasn't because of turnovers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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