How Sean McDermott won the Buffalo Bills' locker room back after starting Nathan Peterman

[SoTier]

On 7/19/2018 at 12:13 PM, Sky Diver said:

Now hold Mills accountable and find a decent RT.

 

The Bills are in far more need of a decent LG than a RT in case you didn't notice ...

[QuoteTheRaven83]

On 7/19/2018 at 10:51 AM, THE SLAMMER said:

I disagree it was a mistake. Tyrod Tylor was playing his worse football ever at the time. A week off may have been what he needed.

Okay, in hindsight it was a mistake.

 

How can you say it wasn't a mistake? Sure Tyrod wasn't playing the best football but he was a leader on that team and was a leader in that locker room. You take a leader out like that, you're just asking for it, especially when you're in contention to make the playoffs. It's not always about the stats.

[Sky Diver]

3 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

The Bills are in far more need of a decent LG than a RT in case you didn't notice ...

 

Bring Richie back. Problem solved.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

10 minutes ago, Sky Diver said:

 

Bring Richie back. Problem solved.

 

...thought I heard he was tied up writing his new book, "I Know The Whole Story About Shady" due in Barnes & Noble by September....and now back to the thread.....McD took the blame but this had Dennison stink/whine all over it due to his "TT luvfest".....strictly opinion......

Edited July 21, 2018 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[Steptide]

On 7/19/2018 at 11:07 AM, Madd Charlie said:

Yeah it may have been bad but is wasn't PETERMAN bad 

You sure? Cuz that saints game was brutal and was a home game. Think the final score was 47-10 with our lone touch down coming from nate Peterman. Just sayin 

[transient]

On 7/19/2018 at 11:12 AM, Kirby Jackson said:

This was one of the most impressive things about McDermott’s rookie season IMO. He trusted his OC and let him play his guy. It failed miserably and McDermott took the blame publicly. He apologized to the team and won them back. He held Dennison accountable by firing him. A lot of good came out of a massive mistake. It was the ultimate “learning experience.”

 

Knowing TT wasn’t in their long term plans, they were also able to get a quick read on NP in the SD and Jags game. I think that probably played a role in their aggressive approach to trading up for Allen. 

[Punching Bag]

3 hours ago, QuoteTheRaven83 said:

 

How can you say it wasn't a mistake? Sure Tyrod wasn't playing the best football but he was a leader on that team and was a leader in that locker room. You take a leader out like that, you're just asking for it, especially when you're in contention to make the playoffs. It's not always about the stats.

 

Revealing change of starting QB was done.  And IMO the coach listening to OC to change QBs shows Coach McD does not know offense.

[3rdand12]

4 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

Revealing change of starting QB was done.  And IMO the coach listening to OC to change QBs shows Coach McD does not know offense.

I disagree. He must know offense to play effective defense.
what he did was show loyalty.

 to a fault.

 and learned from it.

[Punching Bag]

Just now, 3rdand12 said:

I disagree. He must know offense to play effective defense.
what he did was show loyalty.

 to a fault.

 and learned from it.

 

And revealing change ahead of time so other team could prepare?

IMO he has shown with selection of coaches he does not understand offense, how to construct, etc. He knows how to defend offenses which means he can see some weaknesses but that is not the same thing.

[3rdand12]

1 minute ago, Limeaid said:

 

And revealing change ahead of time so other team could prepare?

IMO he has shown with selection of coaches he does not understand offense, how to construct, etc. He knows how to defend offenses which means he can see some weaknesses but that is not the same thing.

his selection of Coach in his first year was likely limited. I expected the retread Frazier to fail. 

 This season Bills had a fair turnover at Coaching. and yes the announcing of Peterman was odd. But i thought it was an exercise to see what he had.
Of course he trusted his OC. certainly more than us fans would. But that's part of being a team

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

11 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

Revealing change of starting QB was done.  And IMO the coach listening to OC to change QBs shows Coach McD does not know offense.

 

...so is it conceivable that it COULD have happened?....not because McD doesn't know offense but because Dennison was "less than enamored" working with TT?...just askin'........

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Limeaid said:

Revealing change of starting QB was done.  And IMO the coach listening to OC to change QBs shows Coach McD does not know offense.

 

I'm not sure that's it.

 

Something said that puzzled me when I was a new hire manager was "at XXX Inc, you earn the right to fail".

 

After a couple years, I got it.  When you have a subordinate you need to trust with a major project  - if they've earned that responsibility, you have to turn over the reins.  You can't hold on to authority and second-guess them at every turn, that just winds up with a muddle.  You have to let go and give them the leeway to make decisions and run things their way.  And sometimes you do that, and things crash and burn and you have to step in and right the ship and maybe let THEM go, because it's obvious they're not the right person for the job.

 

And maybe that's really what McDermott learned from the Peterman SD debacle. 

 

Maybe it wasn't about Peterman.  Maybe it was about Dennison.

[JohnC]

12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not sure that's it.

 

Something said that puzzled me when I was a new hire manager was "at XXX Inc, you earn the right to fail".

 

After a couple years, I got it.  When you have a subordinate you need to trust with a major project  - if they've earned that responsibility, you have to turn over the reins.  You can't hold on to authority and second-guess them at every turn, that just winds up with a muddle.  You have to let go and give them the leeway to make decisions and run things their way.  And sometimes you do that, and things crash and burn and you have to step in and right the ship and maybe let THEM go, because it's obvious they're not the right person for the job.

 

And maybe that's really what McDermott learned from the Peterman SD debacle. 

 

Maybe it wasn't about Peterman.  Maybe it was about Dennison.

In the case with Dennison and his desire to make a qb change that dramatic change doesn't come out of the blue. What the OC was seeing in the games and in the film room were the same things that McDermott was seeing. McDermott who had the ultimate authority to make that change was willing to go along with the recommendation because there was a substantive basis to the recommendation.

 

In the example of of your own experience as a manager in a wide ranging organization it is impossible as a boss/manager to know how everything should be run. You have to delegate and trust your subordinates. (As you noted.) However, if a manager at a lower branch wants to make a dramatic change in policy then I'm sure you would ask some probing questions and consult with others if need be. My point is that even if Dennison wanted to make a change McDermott as the HC would certainly not casually go along  with the OC's desire unless there was merit to Dennison's position on this critical  issue. 

 

I believe that there was a legitimate basis for Dennison to want to make a change. The decision didn't work out. It was quickly changed by the HC in the game. In retrospect, although it is not unfair to say that the outcome of the decision was disastrous the end result from how it impacted the season was inconsequential. In my opinion the record the Bills had turned out to be the same whether the decision was made or not. 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

7 hours ago, QuoteTheRaven83 said:

 

How can you say it wasn't a mistake? Sure Tyrod wasn't playing the best football but he was a leader on that team and was a leader in that locker room. You take a leader out like that, you're just asking for it, especially when you're in contention to make the playoffs. It's not always about the stats.

 

Because his play indicated he was a dumpster fire?

 

Saying he "wasn't playing the best football" is like asking Mrs. Lincoln how the play was, despite the assassination.

 

Edit: when the stats are THAT BAD, it is about the stats.

 

Edited July 21, 2018 by joesixpack

[Wily Dog]

McD also learned who not to trust on his team and that will come out in the wash, in the next year, when we have salary cap nirvana.

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, transient said:

 

Knowing TT wasn’t in their long term plans, they were also able to get a quick read on NP in the SD and Jags game. I think that probably played a role in their aggressive approach to trading up for Allen. 

 

I predicted it in the pre-season too. As bad as I thought Nate looked they were never going through the whole season without getting a look at Peterman. 

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I predicted it in the pre-season too. As bad as I thought Nate looked they were never going through the whole season without getting a look at Peterman. 

Sometime in this season the staff is going to get a look at Allen. It's not a question of will they make the switch but when will they make the switch. The first half of the schedule is brutal. So I don't see him getting playing time then. By the second half of the season he should be better prepared to take the snaps. 

[QuoteTheRaven83]

7 hours ago, joesixpack said:

 

Because his play indicated he was a dumpster fire?

 

Saying he "wasn't playing the best football" is like asking Mrs. Lincoln how the play was, despite the assassination.

 

Edit: when the stats are THAT BAD, it is about the stats.

 

 

His stats weren't THAT bad. Just because he wasn't putting up Peyton Manning/Tom Brady numbers doesnt mean he was playing poorly. He was doing enough for us to win games. Prior to that game he put up 12 TDs to 5 TOs. 

 

I'm not saying he was great and a franchise QB, but you don't just pull a team leader in the middle of the season with a winning record like that.

 

His stats weren't that bad so stop making sht up.

 

BTW that was probably the dumbest analogy I've heard. LOL. 

Edited July 22, 2018 by QuoteTheRaven83

[Ol Dirty B]

On 7/19/2018 at 10:51 AM, THE SLAMMER said:

I disagree it was a mistake. Tyrod Tylor was playing his worse football ever at the time. A week off may have been what he needed.

Okay, in hindsight it was a mistake.

 

It was a mistake and indefensible. Go edit your post again and delete everything besides "Okay, in hindsight it was a mistake"

 

Some words you'll never hear the guy who thinks of himself as the second coming ever utter. I have a hard time liking him because of those two weeks.

11 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not sure that's it.

 

Something said that puzzled me when I was a new hire manager was "at XXX Inc, you earn the right to fail".

 

After a couple years, I got it.  When you have a subordinate you need to trust with a major project  - if they've earned that responsibility, you have to turn over the reins.  You can't hold on to authority and second-guess them at every turn, that just winds up with a muddle.  You have to let go and give them the leeway to make decisions and run things their way.  And sometimes you do that, and things crash and burn and you have to step in and right the ship and maybe let THEM go, because it's obvious they're not the right person for the job.

 

And maybe that's really what McDermott learned from the Peterman SD debacle. 

 

Maybe it wasn't about Peterman.  Maybe it was about Dennison.

 

Then it's even worse that he'd let a retread pull the plug on Tyrod. A guy who imposed his scheme on Tyrod. I usually think you're spot on, but I have a hard time believing this. I think it went up to McDermott. He was non committal to Tyrod when he got the job, benched him, made the playoffs with him and shipped him out(granted a good trade on their part). But nothing he did showed he was ever invested in Tyrod.

Edited July 22, 2018 by Ol Dirty B

[Buffalo Barbarian]

He never lost it. After getting destroyed by the Jets and  Saints many were in favor of switching to Peterman, as Donald Jones reported on the John Murphy Show.

 

 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

On 7/19/2018 at 10:51 AM, THE SLAMMER said:

I disagree it was a mistake. Tyrod Tylor was playing his worse football ever at the time. A week off may have been what he needed.

Okay, in hindsight it was a mistake.

 

It wasn't a mistake. It didn't work but it was the right decision. Tyrod was garbage the previous two games, McDermott had to do something.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, JohnC said:

Sometime in this season the staff is going to get a look at Allen. It's not a question of will they make the switch but when will they make the switch. The first half of the schedule is brutal. So I don't see him getting playing time then. By the second half of the season he should be better prepared to take the snaps. 

 

Correct. Although I think it will come sooner than you. I think he will be in by Chicago at the latest. I can see him in by Green Bay though. 

[nedboy7]

Oh man some tyrod hate to start the day.  Bills fans are mental. 

[Rocky Landing]

On July 19, 2018 at 7:51 AM, THE SLAMMER said:

I disagree it was a mistake. Tyrod Tylor was playing his worse football ever at the time. A week off may have been what he needed.

Okay, in hindsight it was a mistake.

No. That was a winnable game.

[3rdand12]

On 7/21/2018 at 2:55 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not sure that's it.

 

Something said that puzzled me when I was a new hire manager was "at XXX Inc, you earn the right to fail".

 

After a couple years, I got it.  When you have a subordinate you need to trust with a major project  - if they've earned that responsibility, you have to turn over the reins.  You can't hold on to authority and second-guess them at every turn, that just winds up with a muddle.  You have to let go and give them the leeway to make decisions and run things their way.  And sometimes you do that, and things crash and burn and you have to step in and right the ship and maybe let THEM go, because it's obvious they're not the right person for the job.

 

And maybe that's really what McDermott learned from the Peterman SD debacle. 

 

Maybe it wasn't about Peterman.  Maybe it was about Dennison.

I considered this for a long time as soon as peterman was announced. Trying to sort the reasoning. For as bad as Tyrod was playing there was not anything that said to me start Nathan. Being a close observer at the Time of what Dennison was asking of Tyrod was very frustrating so my conclusion was Dennison wanted a pocket passer to run his offense after trying to force Taylor into a box he could not fit into.

How McD handled the tragedy was quite respectable, but there certainly was damage done. The Team and players i might became confused as the the goals. Perhaps that is whey we saw a bit of half hearted play from the O line ?

thats brutal for the HC to deal with.
I now respect Coach for how he recovered the team. Then moved on post season from Dennison. 

And i think that as the point here. Young Head Coach learning from his decisions, both right and wrong and ambiguous all.

 Good perspective Hap
 

Go Bills 

On 7/21/2018 at 3:36 PM, JohnC said:

In the case with Dennison and his desire to make a qb change that dramatic change doesn't come out of the blue. What the OC was seeing in the games and in the film room were the same things that McDermott was seeing. McDermott who had the ultimate authority to make that change was willing to go along with the recommendation because there was a substantive basis to the recommendation.

 

In the example of of your own experience as a manager in a wide ranging organization it is impossible as a boss/manager to know how everything should be run. You have to delegate and trust your subordinates. (As you noted.) However, if a manager at a lower branch wants to make a dramatic change in policy then I'm sure you would ask some probing questions and consult with others if need be. My point is that even if Dennison wanted to make a change McDermott as the HC would certainly not casually go along  with the OC's desire unless there was merit to Dennison's position on this critical  issue. 

 

I believe that there was a legitimate basis for Dennison to want to make a change. The decision didn't work out. It was quickly changed by the HC in the game. In retrospect, although it is not unfair to say that the outcome of the decision was disastrous the end result from how it impacted the season was inconsequential. In my opinion the record the Bills had turned out to be the same whether the decision was made or not. 

 

I do not know if feel the same about the season.

Sure Tyrod felt the writing was now on the wall about his future. And perhaps Dennison as wel ?This dynamic is fairly weighty. and sure the Team was questioning what the future would bring.

Luckily, and i mean luckily the team rallied and recovered. Not sure how that happened honestly.
But i feel strongly the dynamics shifted at One Bills Drive that weekend

 

[Dr.Sack]

Peterman was accurate in throwing the ball to opposing teams corners. McD attempted a Hail Mary and it blew up in his face. Glad he owned up to it. Proving he’s humble & capable of putting the blame not on his players but himself. 

 

Where this gets interesting is if Josh Allen lights up training camp & the preseason and pushes McCarron & Peterman for the starting job. Will McD be willing to roll with the rookie & weather through the learning curve? 

Edited July 22, 2018 by Dr.Sack

[3rdand12]

23 hours ago, joesixpack said:

 

Because his play indicated he was a dumpster fire?

 

Saying he "wasn't playing the best football" is like asking Mrs. Lincoln how the play was, despite the assassination.

 

Edit: when the stats are THAT BAD, it is about the stats.

 

Something had to change that was for sure.
 

23 hours ago, Wily Dog said:

McD also learned who not to trust on his team and that will come out in the wash, in the next year, when we have salary cap nirvana.

excellent point. seriously 

23 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I predicted it in the pre-season too. As bad as I thought Nate looked they were never going through the whole season without getting a look at Peterman. 

 

13 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Correct. Although I think it will come sooner than you. I think he will be in by Chicago at the latest. I can see him in by Green Bay though. 

I am going on record here. if the Bills are playing reasonably well at QB and AJM or Peterman are making decent decisions ? I do not see the need to switch up for the sake of seeing what Allen has. he was drafted as the Franchise QB and they sure better have faith he will be just that. Not the same circumstance.

 unless  you are predicting poor QB play already

[3rdand12]

9 minutes ago, Dr.Sack said:

Peterman was accurate in throwing the ball to opposing teams corners. McD attempted a Hail Mary and it blew up in his face. Glad he owned up to it. Proving he’s humble & capable of putting the blame not on his players but himself. 

 

Where this gets interesting is if Josh Allen lights up training camp & the preseason and pushes McCarron & Peterman for the starting job. Will McD be willing to roll with the rookie & weather through the learning curve? 

I might hope so.
but he should be head and shoulders above the other two.. ( see what i did there )

 Allen is 6 5 right ??

lol

[NoSaint]

On 7/19/2018 at 10:24 AM, Sweats said:

I almost forgot the 3 game slide where we were out scored nearly 110-40.......and yet even with that miserable showing, we still made the post season.

 

Yeah, I’m as shocked as anyone over that.

That’s not near as shocking as missing the playoffs so many times. Mediocre teams get in regularly 

[3rdand12]

9 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

That’s not near as shocking as missing the playoffs so many times. Mediocre teams get in regularly 

Not the Bills though. History tells us so.

: )
fairly amazing all considered

[GunnerBill]

27 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

unless  you are predicting poor QB play already

 

I have some, but limited, confidence in AJ and we start against 3 legitimate defenses the first 3 weeks. Entirely possible that if he starts he looks worse than he really is through that run. 

 

I have no confidence in Peterman. If he starts and makes it past the guantlet of the Ravens and Chargers (who will be ready to jump every out route he throws) then the Vikings will eat him alive. 

[3rdand12]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I have some, but limited, confidence in AJ and we start against 3 legitimate defenses the first 3 weeks. Entirely possible that if he starts he looks worse than he really is through that run. 

 

I have no confidence in Peterman. If he starts and makes it past the guantlet of the Ravens and Chargers (who will be ready to jump every out route he throws) then the Vikings will eat him alive. 

I have no qualms whatsoever with your assessment Bill.
 Do wonder what Brian Daboll thinks about his QBs as it is still early for solid evaluation from him.
I am all for Allen being the successor because he earns it. But as some have mentioned he has more than once been described as a project who might need some patience from FO and  Fans as well !

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, 3rdand12 said:

I have no qualms whatsoever with your assessment Bill.
 Do wonder what Brian Daboll thinks about his QBs as it is still early for solid evaluation from him.
I am all for Allen being the successor because he earns it. But as some have mentioned he has more than once been described as a project who might need some patience from FO and  Fans as well !

 

I am all for patience with Allen but this is the NFL. If he is the most visually impressive in pre-season and doesn't start and the Bills go 0-3 to start the season (certainly possible) losing low scoring games where the offense can't move the ball then the pressure to put the 7th overall pick in the draft in will be extreme. We saw last year what the mounting pressure of defeats can do to even the most process driven of Head Coach. I hope I am wrong but I suspect in that scenario Josh Allen makes his NFL debut at Lambeau Field. 

[3rdand12]

9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am all for patience with Allen but this is the NFL. If he is the most visually impressive in pre-season and doesn't start and the Bills go 0-3 to start the season (certainly possible) losing low scoring games where the offense can't move the ball then the pressure to put the 7th overall pick in the draft in will be extreme. We saw last year what the mounting pressure of defeats can do to even the most process driven of Head Coach. I hope I am wrong but I suspect in that scenario Josh Allen makes his NFL debut at Lambeau Field. 

My concern , as might well be for others who wish him success long term?

 Is,    if the O line is not protecting either Peterman , or more likely AJM do you want to send in Allen for trial by fire.
Fans will be screaming at 0-3 of course. But  HC and Beanes need to protect the investment as well ?
so i have mixed feelings my friend.

 and it is still rather early to call

Edited July 22, 2018 by 3rdand12

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, 3rdand12 said:

I considered this for a long time as soon as peterman was announced. Trying to sort the reasoning. For as bad as Tyrod was playing there was not anything that said to me start Nathan. Being a close observer at the Time of what Dennison was asking of Tyrod was very frustrating so my conclusion was Dennison wanted a pocket passer to run his offense after trying to force Taylor into a box he could not fit into.

How McD handled the tragedy was quite respectable, but there certainly was damage done. The Team and players i might became confused as the the goals. Perhaps that is whey we saw a bit of half hearted play from the O line ?

thats brutal for the HC to deal with.
I now respect Coach for how he recovered the team. Then moved on post season from Dennison. 

And i think that as the point here. Young Head Coach learning from his decisions, both right and wrong and ambiguous all.

 Good perspective Hap
 

Go Bills 

I do not know if feel the same about the season.

Sure Tyrod felt the writing was now on the wall about his future. And perhaps Dennison as wel ?This dynamic is fairly weighty. and sure the Team was questioning what the future would bring.

Luckily, and i mean luckily the team rallied and recovered. Not sure how that happened honestly.
But i feel strongly the dynamics shifted at One Bills Drive that weekend

 

If you recall the Charger game in San Diego the opposition was demonstrably a better team. Their defense overwhelmed our OL and throttled the offense even when TT was in. Rivers is a probable HOF qb who played exceptionally well in that game. I'm steadfast in my belief that the visiting team was not going to win that game. 

 

As you noted the team recovered from that controversial substitution and went on its way to remain competitive for the rest of the season up to the point of making the playoffs. That's exactly my point! Although that substitution received a lot of attention it had no bearing on how the team performed for the rest of the season. Maybe that change rallied the team to get behind the veteran qb? If that is the case then the substitution had the unintended consequence of making the team more determined to play better behind Taylor? 

 

This coaching staff made a decision to make a change at qb in the hope that it would spark the offense. It didn't work out. The HC rather quickly went back to Taylor. So I don't see why this episode is given so much attention.? When all is said and done the Bills traded Taylor and kept Peterman. It's obvious that this staff was not committed to Taylor. And that to me is a very understandable and reasonable position to take. 

 

 

[3rdand12]

11 hours ago, JohnC said:

If you recall the Charger game in San Diego the opposition was demonstrably a better team. Their defense overwhelmed our OL and throttled the offense even when TT was in. Rivers is a probable HOF qb who played exceptionally well in that game. I'm steadfast in my belief that the visiting team was not going to win that game. 

 

As you noted the team recovered from that controversial substitution and went on its way to remain competitive for the rest of the season up to the point of making the playoffs. That's exactly my point! Although that substitution received a lot of attention it had no bearing on how the team performed for the rest of the season. Maybe that change rallied the team to get behind the veteran qb? If that is the case then the substitution had the unintended consequence of making the team more determined to play better behind Taylor? 

 

This coaching staff made a decision to make a change at qb in the hope that it would spark the offense. It didn't work out. The HC rather quickly went back to Taylor. So I don't see why this episode is given so much attention.? When all is said and done the Bills traded Taylor and kept Peterman. It's obvious that this staff was not committed to Taylor. And that to me is a very understandable and reasonable position to take. 

 

 

yes Sir.

 it was rather dramatic at the time. As the season went on and then ended, it was just another page in McDermotts HC history.