Had an argument with a friend about Thurman Thomas

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

He isn’t top 5 for me either but after pouring through all the stats it’s not crazy to make the case he is top 10-15 guy

 

his versatility was unmatched... even Faulk couldn’t block like him . He was a modern 3rd down back combined with the speed, power , vision of a workhorse 

 

 

 

By my account he is #9 for RB not 12... who are the other 3 you found ahead of him 

 

Payton, Smith, Faulk, Sproles, Tomlinson, Sanders, Walker, Gore, Allen, Martin, T. Barber

[Buffalo716]

4 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Payton, Smith, Faulk, Sproles, Tomlinson, Sanders, Walker, Gore, Allen, Martin, T. Barber

 

He is ahead of sproles , barber

 

the top 10 is Emmitt, Peyton, Faulk , LT, Barry Sanders , gore, Marcus Allen , Curtis Martin,, #9 Thurman Thomas

 

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/yds_from_scrimmage_career.htm

Edited April 14, 2018 by Buffalo716

[SouthNYfan]

4 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Payton, Smith, Faulk, Sproles, Tomlinson, Sanders, Walker, Gore, Allen, Martin, T. Barber

 

Was that single season or career?

Sproles isn't ahead career, neither is barber

Edited April 14, 2018 by SouthNYfan

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

Was that single season or career?

Sproles isn't ahead career, neither is barber

 

Yea he must of went single season

 

he is ahead of both

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

Was that single season or career?

Sproles isn't ahead career, neither is barber

 

This is the link I used:

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/all_purpose_yds_career.htm

 

The other one is better.

 

Still ... being #9 on that list isn't enough to put him into my top 10 of all time.

[Buffalo716]

Just now, Gugny said:

 

This is the link I used:

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/all_purpose_yds_career.htm

 

The other one is better.

 

Still ... being #9 on that list isn't enough to put him into my top 10 of all time.

 

Yea, that’s is all purpose yards which is a bit different than yards from scrimmage 

 

and you are allowed your own opinion!

[SouthNYfan]

3 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

This is the link I used:

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/all_purpose_yds_career.htm

 

The other one is better.

 

Still ... being #9 on that list isn't enough to put him into my top 10 of all time.

 

Ahhh yes.

All purpose vs from scrimmage

All purpose includes kick/punt returns, int returns/fumble rec too I think

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

Yea, that’s is all purpose yards which is a bit different than yards from scrimmage 

 

and you are allowed your own opinion!

 

I love Thurman as much as any Bills fan.  Kelly, too.  And he's not in my top 10 for QBs, either.

[Buffalo716]

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

Ahhh yes.

All purpose vs from scrimmage

All purpose includes kick/punt returns, int returns/fumble rec too I think

 

Yes. That’s the difference 

 

return yards and such

[Gugny]

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

Ahhh yes.

All purpose vs from scrimmage

All purpose includes kick/punt returns, int returns/fumble rec too I think

 

I took out the return specialists and thought I kept it to actual RBs.

[Buffalo716]

Just now, Gugny said:

 

I love Thurman as much as any Bills fan.  Kelly, too.  And he's not in my top 10 for QBs, either.

 

I think both are obviously awesome... both are HoF

 

but Thurman was more dominant imo I think there is a better case for Thurman top 10 than Kelly

1 minute ago, Gugny said:

 

I took out the return specialists and thought I kept it to actual RBs.

 

Sproles hasn’t over 10,000 career return yards to put him there

[switz1610]

10 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Plus...he was one of the few (maybe the only back) that took the snap directly and ran through the 'A' Gap.  I don't think too many backs do that even now.  Thurman was multi talented, maybe not a 'flashy' runner, but a very effective one...in multiple facets.

 

The wildcat offense?

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

I hope you guys are figuring in TT post season yardage into his record. It is relevant and certainly took a toll on his body playing 19-20 games a year every year. He was so...versatile and perfect for any offense that wanted balance. I haven't analyzed the record, but off the top of my head, having seen all his games, and watching football for 40 years, he is a top 10 guy and no worse than top 15 for sure.

Edited April 14, 2018 by horned dogs

[atlbillsfan1975]

11 hours ago, NoSaint said:

Top 10 all time? I’ll say no... 

 

Top 20-25? Sure

 

juice, brown, Campbell, Walter, sayers,  Dickerson, sanders, LT, Faulk and Peterson off hand... I’m sure I forget 2-3 that could be in the 10

Thurman was as good as Tomlinson and Faulk. Peterson had a different style and not as skilled a receiver as Thurman. I think E. Smith benefited from playing behind maybe the greatest line ever for at least 5-6 years of his career. Also Smith had a relatively injury free career that allowed him to pile up yards.

[Yav]

11 hours ago, NoSaint said:

Top 10 all time? I’ll say no... 

 

Top 20-25? Sure

 

juice, brown, Campbell, Walter, sayers,  Dickerson, sanders, LT, Faulk and Peterson off hand... I’m sure I forget 2-3 that could be in the 10

Sorry, LT, Faulk and Peterson are not as good as Thurman. I’m not even sure why this has to be said.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

11 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

I argued that Thurman is overlooked in the world of modern running backs and is a top 10 RB in NFL history...

 

sure he didn’t dazzle like Barry or churn out 5 yard runs at a whack like Emmitt... but he was the most complete back of his time... 

 

his running, receiving, blocking and toughness made him the most rounded back of his Era

 

his power / speed ratio was the best in the NFL and he was a violent runner

 

led the NFL in yards from scrimmage an NFL record 4 consecutive seasons... an NFL MVP... a first ballot HoF

 

As a student of the game I don’t find it foolish to say Thurman is a top 10 modern back

 

 

What really made Thurman a hall of famer was the way he could do everything and did everything. Just as you say. 

 

He was sort of like Marshall Faulk  before most of any were using a RB like that. 

 

i remember I was at a game ...  a long time ago, and he ran a 9 or wheel. Made a diving catch where he was virtually parallel to the ground on a deep sideline ball. Few WRs could do that. Guy was a stud. 

[SouthNYfan]

53 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I took out the return specialists and thought I kept it to actual RBs.

 

Yeah, but the actual term "yards from scrimmage" and "all purpose yards" differ, regardless of position.

 

Ez mistake.

I actually have made it myself when looking these things up

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

Yeah, but the actual term "yards from scrimmage" and "all purpose yards" differ, regardless of position.

 

Ez mistake.

I actually have made it myself when looking these things up

 

Whether he's a top 10 of all-time RB, or not, I think (hope) everyone can agree that his place in Canton is certainly well-deserved.

[vincec]

3 hours ago, Wacka said:

Not going to read the whole thread, but Smith's career lasted longer because he ran out of bounds a lot instead of turning it up field and getting hit.

I think you mean Thurman Thomas.

[SouthNYfan]

28 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Whether he's a top 10 of all-time RB, or not, I think (hope) everyone can agree that his place in Canton is certainly well-deserved.

 

Damn right.

[Matt_In_NH]

Emmitt was really durable and consistent and had more stats but Thurman was the better all around back.    That Dallas team had the best OL in NFL history or close to it.

[dave mcbride]

4 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Shouldn't have come down to a 47 yard FG on grass that was no gimme. 

One name to always remember re: the distance of that kick: Al Effing Edwards. No more need be said.

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, Yav said:

Sorry, LT, Faulk and Peterson are not as good as Thurman. I’m not even sure why this has to be said.

 

When you put that much effort into the argument....

 

LT had more rushing yards, more receiving, and like double the TDs in fewer seasons. His efficiency/per game stats beat thurman. Better ypcarry, though Thomas won ypcatch. LT had 20 fewer fumbles despite more touches.

 

he weighed more, put up more reps on the bench but still had a better 40, better in all the explosives (vertical and broad), better in the shuttles. 

 

Make your case for Thomas over LT... 

 

1 hour ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

Thurman was as good as Tomlinson and Faulk. Peterson had a different style and not as skilled a receiver as Thurman. I think E. Smith benefited from playing behind maybe the greatest line ever for at least 5-6 years of his career. Also Smith had a relatively injury free career that allowed him to pile up yards.

 

I didn’t even say smith in there. Just rattled off some names. I think we can all agree that it’s not a slam dunk to put him top ten - he’s right in that next group that can be debated. If you start that group at 9, or 10 or 11 through 20ish is fine. 

 

Ill buy thomas paved the way for a guy like LT, and did a GREAT job, but there aren’t many spots he was just as good (measurables or stats). 

Edited April 14, 2018 by NoSaint

[dave mcbride]

29 minutes ago, mattynh said:

Emmitt was really durable and consistent and had more stats but Thurman was the better all around back.    That Dallas team had the best OL in NFL history or close to it.

Emmitt Smith was WAY better than people here seem to remember. He was a truly dominant back in the big-boy conference (winner of 13 straight super bowls between 1984 and 1996, and most of them blowouts). His 1995 season was one of the best performances on a game-by-game basis in NFL history in my view, and his performance against the Giants in their January 1994 playoff game was one for the ages.

 

Also, the Bills' line from 1989-1992 was one of the best NFL lines in the past 30 years. 

 

Incidentally, I think that Thomas' greatest performance also came in January 1994 after a so-so season (post-Wolford and Ritcher): the AFC championship game vs. the Chiefs. I also think the most impressive run I ever saw him have was against Dallas in the last SB. It was a relatively short td run,  but he absolutely smoked Leon Lett and another top-tier defender. Shortly after that, though, Emmitt Smith broke like 3 tackles (including an effort by Jeff Wright, who had him hogtied in the backfield) to run for the go-ahead td on third and very long.

Edited April 14, 2018 by dave mcbride

[Jamie Mueller]

Thurman Thomas was a winner.  Period.  Huge component of one of the best offenses ever.

[C.Biscuit97]

Thurman, next to OJ who I never say play, is the greatest offensive player in Bills history.  He was Marshall Faulk and Levon Bell.  Such a great player and would have been SB MVP if we would have given him the ball more.

[dave mcbride]

7 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Thurman, next to OJ who I never say play, is the greatest offensive player in Bills history.  He was Marshall Faulk and Levon Bell.  Such a great player and would have been SB MVP if we would have given him the ball more.

Definitely not as good as OJ, who is the greatest rb I ever saw play. I'm too young for Jim Brown. I vivdly recall being in Richmond VA (my dad was transfered there from Buffalo for 6 years in the early 70s before being transfered back) and watching him rush for over 200 yards in the snow vs the Jets to break Brown's record and get to 2000. I was almost seven at the time. No one has gotten close to his rushing yards per game record of 143 rushing ypg. Bear in mind that in 1975 he would have gotten over 2k yards if he played 16 games instead of 14. He had 1817 that year.

Edited April 14, 2018 by dave mcbride

[Tyrod's friend]

12 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

I argued that Thurman is overlooked in the world of modern running backs and is a top 10 RB in NFL history...

 

sure he didn’t dazzle like Barry or churn out 5 yard runs at a whack like Emmitt... but he was the most complete back of his time... 

 

his running, receiving, blocking and toughness made him the most rounded back of his Era

 

his power / speed ratio was the best in the NFL and he was a violent runner

 

led the NFL in yards from scrimmage an NFL record 4 consecutive seasons... an NFL MVP... a first ballot HoF

 

As a student of the game I don’t find it foolish to say Thurman is a top 10 modern back

 

There's career value and peak value. I agree, Yards from scrimmage is the best way to assess a running back. You could argue that YPC is important I guess, I dunno. 

Most running backs have a four year window; Smith, Sanders and Thomas's all roughly overlap and make for a good comp to Thurman. Side note: Sweetness was the only RB that had two, four year windows, and played on a team that never once had a QB. Clearly, easily to me the best running back in the history of the game. 

Thurman had the worst four year peak of the three. I mean, it's great company to be in (Babe Ruth was the 3rd worst of the top three HR hitters), but Thurman hit an average of 1973, Smith 1980, and Sanders 2030, and Sanders obviously didn't have the cast of the other two. He was obscenely good at his peak.

So at his four year peak, he was probably in the top five. Statistically, from a career perspective he was literally in the top 9, and that' mostly because other running backs just outlasted him (Gore). Some (Martin) were more consistent. 

He had a key role in a winning program; his peak value was roughly approximate to any other running back; his statistics show he was in the top 9 for career numbers.

Based on your parameters, I can't for the life of me see an argument - Thurman was easily a top 10 back. It's like ... you'd be foolish to NOT say Thurman was a top 10 back. Not even a small question.

[hondo in seattle]

13 hours ago, whatdrought said:

Also, Career length always makes judgement of players hard. 

 

Did Smith benefit unfairly by playing so long (which in of itself is a great boost in his favor) 

 

What about Sayers? Give him two good knees and is he the best to ever touch a pigskin? 

 

Jim Brown and OJ were clearly the best backs of their generation.  I'd argue they were the best two backs in NFL history and there's a drop-off after them.  I'd put Payton at #3.  

 

Emmitt Smith is the all-time rushing leader but he might not have even been the best running back of his era.  Emmitt's greatest talent was longevity.  

 

Thurman was an awesome all purpose back and the motor at the heart of the high-scoring K-Gun.  But he was also a beneficiary of the K-Gun.  The 90s Bills could effectively run both inside and outside.  They could pass both short and long, on the perimeter and down the middle.  Forcing the D to defend so many places made it easier for everyone to gain yards. 

 

The difference between, let's say, #8 and #12 on the all-time best back list is pretty thin and terribly subjective.  But if I was forced to come up with a Top Ten list, I don't think Thurman would make  it.

Edited April 14, 2018 by hondo in seattle

[oldmanfan]

Brown

OJ

Sayers

Sanders

Peyton

Smith

Dickerson

 

TT could sneak in there.  Depends where you put him vs. guys like Faulk, Martin, Gifford, Hornung

 

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

Brown

OJ

Sayers

Sanders

Peyton

Smith

Dickerson

 

TT could sneak in there.  Depends where you put him vs. guys like Faulk, Martin, Gifford, Hornung

 

 

...IMO, he was one of the top all around backs especially with annual yards from scrimmage.........

[NoSaint]

36 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Jim Brown and OJ were clearly the best backs of their generation.  I'd argue they were the best two backs in NFL history and there's a drop-off after them.  I'd put Payton at #3.  

 

Emmitt Smith is the all-time rushing leader but he might not have even been the best running back of his era.  Emmitt's greatest talent was longevity.  

 

Thurman was an awesome all purpose back and the motor at the heart of the high-scoring K-Gun.  But he was also a beneficiary of the K-Gun.  The 90s Bills could effectively run both inside and outside.  They could pass both short and long, on the perimeter and down the middle.  Forcing the D to defend so many places made it easier for everyone to gain yards. 

 

The difference between, let's say, #8 and #12 on the all-time best back list is pretty thin and terribly subjective.  But if I was forced to come up with a Top Ten list, I don't think Thurman would make  it.

 

Make a list!

[C.Biscuit97]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

Emmitt Smith was WAY better than people here seem to remember. He was a truly dominant back in the big-boy conference (winner of 13 straight super bowls between 1984 and 1996, and most of them blowouts). His 1995 season was one of the best performances on a game-by-game basis in NFL history in my view, and his performance against the Giants in their January 1994 playoff game was one for the ages.

 

Also, the Bills' line from 1989-1992 was one of the best NFL lines in the past 30 years. 

 

Incidentally, I think that Thomas' greatest performance also came in January 1994 after a so-so season (post-Wolford and Ritcher): the AFC championship game vs. the Chiefs. I also think the most impressive run I ever saw him have was against Dallas in the last SB. It was a relatively short td run,  but he absolutely smoked Leon Lett and another top-tier defender. Shortly after that, though, Emmitt Smith broke like 3 tackles (including an effort by Jeff Wright, who had him hogtied in the backfield) to run for the go-ahead td on third and very long.

I was young at the time but wasn’t the Dallas’ Oline considered one of the greatest of all time?  My memory from that era was that Thurman was the best all around back, Barry was the best pure rb, and Emmitt was the steady workhouse.  All of them were great.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

Just now, NoSaint said:

 

Make a list!

 

...now if we could only complement Shady with a Kenneth Davis type................

[C.Biscuit97]

6 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Brown

OJ

Sayers

Sanders

Peyton

Smith

Dickerson

 

TT could sneak in there.  Depends where you put him vs. guys like Faulk, Martin, Gifford, Hornung

 

 

I think Peterson is up there.  In an era where rushing yards have gone down steady, he put up 2,000. He is an amazing rb.

[#34fan]

14 hours ago, NoSaint said:

Top 10 all time? I’ll say no... 

 

Top 20-25? Sure

 

juice, brown, Campbell, Walter, sayers,  Dickerson, sanders, LT, Faulk and Peterson off hand... I’m sure I forget 2-3 that could be in the 10

 

LT? -Who accomplished Jack Squat without fullback Lorenzo Neal in front of him?...

[C.Biscuit97]

39 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Jim Brown and OJ were clearly the best backs of their generation.  I'd argue they were the best two backs in NFL history and there's a drop-off after them.  I'd put Payton at #3.  

 

Emmitt Smith is the all-time rushing leader but he might not have even been the best running back of his era.  Emmitt's greatest talent was longevity.  

 

Thurman was an awesome all purpose back and the motor at the heart of the high-scoring K-Gun.  But he was also a beneficiary of the K-Gun.  The 90s Bills could effectively run both inside and outside.  They could pass both short and long, on the perimeter and down the middle.  Forcing the D to defend so many places made it easier for everyone to gain yards. 

 

The difference between, let's say, #8 and #12 on the all-time best back list is pretty thin and terribly subjective.  But if I was forced to come up with a Top Ten list, I don't think Thurman would make  it.

I never say Jim Brown and have heard how great he was (also a great lacrosse player as well).  But wasn’t he bigger than linemen?  I do wonder how great physical freaks of their era like Brown, Wilt, & Russell would have been in the modern era with more physical freaks like them.

Just now, #34fan said:

 

LT? -Who accomplished Jack Squat without fullback Lorenzo Neal in front of him?...

LT was pretty good on the Jets.  Turning off the homer hat, I think most people would give him the edge over Thurman.  Slight but he would get it.

[NoSaint]

7 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I was young at the time but wasn’t the Dallas’ Oline considered one of the greatest of all time?  My memory from that era was that Thurman was the best all around back, Barry was the best pure rb, and Emmitt was the steady workhouse.  All of them were great.

 

I’ll agree with two points McBride made —

 

our line was also one of the better ones ones out there 

 

in a 5 year run smith had over 8000 rushing yards and 85 rushing tds. Plus some catches not in those numbers. I think by calling him the steady one a lot of fans forget that he was steadily really killing it on the field and not just grinding out numbers just by longevity and volume 

Edited April 14, 2018 by NoSaint

[#34fan]

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I never say Jim Brown and have heard how great he was (also a great lacrosse player as well).  But wasn’t he bigger than linemen?  I do wonder how great physical freaks of their era like Brown, Wilt, & Russell would have been in the modern era with more physical freaks like them.

LT was pretty good on the Jets.  Turning off the homer hat, I think most people would give him the edge over Thurman.  Slight but he would get it.

 

Not from me, he wouldn't.

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I never say Jim Brown and have heard how great he was (also a great lacrosse player as well).  But wasn’t he bigger than linemen?  I do wonder how great physical freaks of their era like Brown, Wilt, & Russell would have been in the modern era with more physical freaks like them.

LT was pretty good on the Jets.  Turning off the homer hat, I think most people would give him the edge over Thurman.  Slight but he would get it.

 

Wilt Chamberlain played against many good big men

 

when he scored his 100 point game The opposing team had a 7 footer and a few 6’10 guys

 

it wasn’t like he had 7 inches on everybody On the court...

 

he was just stronger and better than everyone