Ralph didn't Want to build a SB Team in the 70'S?

[longtimebillsfan]

In a recent and exclusive interview conducted by the buffalo News with Simpson, OJ said that during his playing days Wilson did not want to build a championship team because then "everyone would want a raise".  I know OJ is not the most credible source, but living through those Bills teams of the 70's and looking back at the way Ralph managed it makes sense.  My family had season ticket from 1973 until I let them go in 2011.  I had moved to Las Vegas and could no longer get enough buyers to purchase the tickets.

 

Being in the stand and being one of the many fans shouting Juice, Juice, Juice was an incredible experience.  But like most bills fans, I gave my heart and soul to this team and anguished over every loss.  If Wilson really felt this way, I am kind of PO'ed.  It makes me more grateful that we have Pags as our owner.  I truly believe he wants to build a winner.

 

I did not see a thread started on this topic and I thought it was a good break from all of the "my college qb is better than your college qb"  threads that we have endured and will continue to do so until the draft.

Edited March 22, 2018 by longtimebillsfan

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

Just now, longtimebillsfan said:

In a recent and exclusive interview conducted by the buffalo News with Simpson, OJ said that during his playing days Wilson did not want to build a championship team because then "everyone would want a raise".  I know OK is not the most credible source, but living through those Bills teams of the 70's and looking back at the way Ralph managed it makes sense.  My family had season ticket from 1973 until I let them go in 2011.  I had moved to Las Vegas and could no longer get enough buyers to purchase the tickets.

 

Being in the stand and being one of the many fans shouting Juice, Juice, Juice was an incredible experience.  But like most bills fans, I gave my heart and soul to this team and anguished over every loss.  If Wilson really felt this way, I am kind of PO'ed.  It makes me more grateful that we have Pags as our owner.  I truly believe he wants to build a winner.

 

I did not see a thread started on this topic and I thought it was a good break from all of the "my college qb is better than your college qb"  threads that we have endured and will continue to do so until the draft.

 

...Fred Goldman says he's VERY credible.....and now back to your topic...I've shared my opinion numerous times entering year 56 of following this club about the RW chronology....he invested $25 grand in 1960 for the fledgling AFL, a big sum then but he was wealthy from trucking and insurance....he loaned 400 grand to the Raiders to keep them afloat and offered a loan to the then Boston Patriots but they declined.....back to back AFL Championships ensued in 1964 & 1965......so as a young 40 something entrepreneur, he sat back and watched his investment grow with zero reinvestment...hence, he EARNED the "cheapskate absentee owner from Detroit" moniker for the 70's and 80's.....and then his interest other than investment grew in the 90's bringing Polian on board.....take it from there.........

[longtimebillsfan]

You and I are of a similar era.  My first memories of the Bills are from 1963.  As a youthful observer, I had high hopes for our team.  

 

I appreciate the lengths that Wilson took to keep the team in buffalo, but this still blows.

[vorpma]

11 minutes ago, longtimebillsfan said:

You and I are of a similar era.  My first memories of the Bills are from 1963.  As a youthful observer, I had high hopes for our team.  

 

I appreciate the lengths that Wilson took to keep the team in buffalo, but this still blows.

Great post, my family owned season tickets from 1960 until the late 1980's, I remember the mid 1970's when the Bills were back in contention and I have to agree with OJ's statement that the Bills were one of the best teams in the NFL in 1975. I don't think Ralph was committed to building a winning team during that era, however, he did cut loose some cash in the mid 1980's and built a dynasty. Well into the late 1990's he was still spending cash - we signed Jim Jeffcoat as a free agent from Dallas and paid him three million a year to rush the QB on third and long. The Bottom Line is the team is still here and he could of moved it!

[DFT]

Mrs Lippy’s car......

 

 

IS GREEN!

[longtimebillsfan]

46 minutes ago, vorpma said:

Great post, my family owned season tickets from 1960 until the late 1980's, I remember the mid 1970's when the Bills were back in contention and I have to agree with OJ's statement that the Bills were one of the best teams in the NFL in 1975. I don't think Ralph was committed to building a winning team during that era, however, he did cut loose some cash in the mid 1980's and built a dynasty. Well into the late 1990's he was still spending cash - we signed Jim Jeffcoat as a free agent from Dallas and paid him three million a year to rush the QB on third and long. The Bottom Line is the team is still here and he could of moved it!

You're right.  As Wilson came to grips with his mortality, I believe he did want to win it all.  He gave it everything he had during the mid 80's on.  I forgot about Jeffcoat.  He was a really good player for the cowboys.

Edited March 22, 2018 by longtimebillsfan

[nucci]

Saban said he had trades lined up to help the defense and Wilson said no. Saban then quit in '76

[longtimebillsfan]

Lou was a great coach for the Bills.  It is surprising he came back for a second tenure with the bills having dealt with Ralph before.

[KDIGGZ]

back then the team was worth about as much as you would spend on a mid size car today.  Ralph was well to do but he was no Pegula.  the AFL was hanging on by a thread.  because of sacrifices they made back then we have a league to talk about today so we can't judge

[RochesterRob]

18 minutes ago, nucci said:

Saban said he had trades lined up to help the defense and Wilson said no. Saban then quit in '76

  Pretty much how I remember it.  In Ralph's defense he did not want a war of salary escalation where the top bidders had the SB bought.  Ralph during the 1970's was already treading behind Lamar Hunt and Bud Adams in terms of money to name a couple of other owners.  So the bigger revelation here is there was really no reason for Adams to have had all the poor Oilers teams that he had.  I think at that time the NFC pretty much had old line owners of which their wealth was mostly tied to their teams so even a 5 million dollar contract would have been brutal.  For perspective Kelly got 5 years 8 million dollars back in 1986 when everybody lit a candle for Polian to bring Jimbo here.

[vorpma]

25 minutes ago, nucci said:

Saban said he had trades lined up to help the defense and Wilson said no. Saban then quit in '76

The two big names were Mike Curtis and Ted Hendricks, both free agent Linebackers on the Colts, Buffalo signed neither despite rumors of talks. Buffalo News ran an article in mid October reporting friction between Ralph and Saban over his veto of possible trades. Lou resigned and 1976 and 1977 were really miserable seasons!

[longtimebillsfan]

Those were the days.  Both good times and bad.

[4_kidd_4]

Someone put it so perfectly in the other thread about this.

 

Paraphrase; Ralph was from a time and place when pro teams were mostly run as  income sources  for owners and not toys for bored billionaires.

 

/ralphischeapbologna

[Augie]

1 hour ago, longtimebillsfan said:

Lou was a great coach for the Bills.  It is surprising he came back for a second tenure with the bills having dealt with Ralph before.

 

I think he came back because his wife enjoyed playing bridge with my mother. 

 

 

 

I could be wrong...

[longtimebillsfan]

29 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I think he came back because his wife enjoyed playing bridge with my mother. 

 

 

 

I could be wrong...

That could be the motivation.

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, 4_kidd_4 said:

Someone put it so perfectly in the other thread about this.

 

Paraphrase; Ralph was from a time and place when pro teams were mostly run as  income sources  for owners and not toys for bored billionaires.

 

/ralphischeapbologna

 

Here is an excerpt from a history about the AFL New York Titans/Jets.

 

But the money problem raised its ugly head as soon as we swung West for our last exhibition game and the season opener at Oakland. Each player was supposed to receive $50 per exhibition game. The exhibition was played and lost with no sign of a check. We held our first team meeting and issued our first ultimatum. "No pay, no play," Curley Johnson said. It had a nice ring and it became our second team slogan.

The first team slogan was "don't cash it with anybody you like," referring to Titan paychecks.

[oldmanfan]

Ralph was more frugal than he should have been after the merger.  Polian was the guy who finally convinced him he had to open up the checkbook.  A lot of it was Littman.

 

That said I wouldn't believe a thing coming out of Simpson's mouth.

[RochesterRob]

12 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Here is an excerpt from a history about the AFL New York Titans/Jets.

 

But the money problem raised its ugly head as soon as we swung West for our last exhibition game and the season opener at Oakland. Each player was supposed to receive $50 per exhibition game. The exhibition was played and lost with no sign of a check. We held our first team meeting and issued our first ultimatum. "No pay, no play," Curley Johnson said. It had a nice ring and it became our second team slogan.

The first team slogan was "don't cash it with anybody you like," referring to Titan paychecks.

  Interesting to get more background on those times.  A fair amount of disparity amongst the owners.  

5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Ralph was more frugal than he should have been after the merger.  Polian was the guy who finally convinced him he had to open up the checkbook.  A lot of it was Littman.

 

That said I wouldn't believe a thing coming out of Simpson's mouth.

  I don't know that Ralph had a choice at that point.  When Seattle got the Seahawks that reduced Ralph's bargaining power in terms of threatening relocation. I know the talk was Phoenix or Jacksonville in public but I think that Ralph had very little support in reality for either location.

Edited March 23, 2018 by RochesterRob

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  Interesting to get more background on those times.  A fair amount of disparity amongst the owners.  

  I don't know that Ralph had a choice at that point.  When Seattle got the Seahawks that reduced Ralph's bargaining power in terms of threatening relocation. I know the talk was Phoenix or Jacksonville in public but I think that Ralph had very little support in reality for either location.

I don't think Ralph relied on the Bills for income.  His insurance business was quite successful.  But he was frugal to be sure.  Hard negotiator.  Both with players but also for the league.  A big reason he made the Hall was his involvement in negotiating the first big TV deals post merger.

[BadLandsMeanie]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Ralph was more frugal than he should have been after the merger.  Polian was the guy who finally convinced him he had to open up the checkbook.  A lot of it was Littman.

 

That said I wouldn't believe a thing coming out of Simpson's mouth.

I agree except that thought his confession was pretty convincing.

[T&C]

5 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...Fred Goldman says he's VERY credible.....and now back to your topic...I've shared my opinion numerous times entering year 56 of following this club about the RW chronology....he invested $25 grand in 1960 for the fledgling AFL, a big sum then but he was wealthy from trucking and insurance....he loaned 400 grand to the Raiders to keep them afloat and offered a loan to the then Boston Patriots but they declined.....back to back AFL Championships ensued in 1964 & 1965......so as a young 40 something entrepreneur, he sat back and watched his investment grow with zero reinvestment...hence, he EARNED the "cheapskate absentee owner from Detroit" moniker for the 70's and 80's.....and then his interest other than investment grew in the 90's bringing Polian on board.....take it from there.........

I have seen many post this... the Bills were founded/established in  October of 1959, not 1960. 

[Fadingpain]

10 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...Fred Goldman says he's VERY credible.....and now back to your topic...I've shared my opinion numerous times entering year 56 of following this club about the RW chronology....he invested $25 grand in 1960 for the fledgling AFL, a big sum then but he was wealthy from trucking and insurance....he loaned 400 grand to the Raiders to keep them afloat and offered a loan to the then Boston Patriots but they declined.....back to back AFL Championships ensued in 1964 & 1965......so as a young 40 something entrepreneur, he sat back and watched his investment grow with zero reinvestment...hence, he EARNED the "cheapskate absentee owner from Detroit" moniker for the 70's and 80's.....and then his interest other than investment grew in the 90's bringing Polian on board.....take it from there.........

Wilson's approach to the ownership of this team is long, consistent, and well documented.

I can't believe there are still Bills fans around who are wondering if Ralph didn't really want to win, or if he favored keeping his money over winning.

Here's a news flash!  Many, maybe most, major league sports owners prefer making money to winning.  A lot of them go through the motions but winning is not really a high priority.

For some reason, a lot of sports fans always assume every owner is trying his hardest to win all the time.

 

It's not true.

 

 

 

[Paulus]

Well, what was happening in the City of Buffalo during these times?

[Buffalo Barbarian]

10 hours ago, longtimebillsfan said:

In a recent and exclusive interview conducted by the buffalo News with Simpson, OJ said that during his playing days Wilson did not want to build a championship team because then "everyone would want a raise".  I know OJ is not the most credible source, but living through those Bills teams of the 70's and looking back at the way Ralph managed it makes sense.  My family had season ticket from 1973 until I let them go in 2011.  I had moved to Las Vegas and could no longer get enough buyers to purchase the tickets.

 

Being in the stand and being one of the many fans shouting Juice, Juice, Juice was an incredible experience.  But like most bills fans, I gave my heart and soul to this team and anguished over every loss.  If Wilson really felt this way, I am kind of PO'ed.  It makes me more grateful that we have Pags as our owner.  I truly believe he wants to build a winner.

 

I did not see a thread started on this topic and I thought it was a good break from all of the "my college qb is better than your college qb"  threads that we have endured and will continue to do so until the draft.

 

He was cheap so ...

[SoCal Deek]

As a fan during that era I don’t hold Ralph in that sort of contempt. He bought a team in a little industrial city that wasn’t even his first choice. I’m sure he didn’t do it to make big money and never saw a merger with the mighty NFL. Then the AFL took off and Ralph was sitting on a run down old stadium in a small market with little chance of major income growth. He signed a couple of stars to keep the team viable and later saw his team get so bad that they qualified to draft Bruce Smith at number one. Fast forward and Jim Kelly chooses to reject the Bills for another league but returns to Buffalo and ....away it went!

 

Dump on Ralph....I don’t think so.

[longtimebillsfan]

40 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

As a fan during that era I don’t hold Ralph in that sort of contempt. He bought a team in a little industrial city that wasn’t even his first choice. I’m sure he didn’t do it to make big money and never saw a merger with the mighty NFL. Then the AFL took off and Ralph was sitting on a run down old stadium in a small market with little chance of major income growth. He signed a couple of stars to keep the team viable and later saw his team get so bad that they qualified to draft Bruce Smith at number one. Fast forward and Jim Kelly chooses to reject the Bills for another league but returns to Buffalo and ....away it went!

 

Dump on Ralph....I don’t think so.

I agree with you.  We owe Ralph a great deal.  He make sure that after his death, the bills would remain in Buffalo.  It just bothered me that in the 70's I was so hopeful that the bills would regain the glory of the 60's championship teams only to find out that Ralph would not let that happen.  He turned it around.  I just changed the way I look at those days in the 70's .  

 

As was stated earlier, Ralph could be very generous to charities and to fellow owners.  I will never dump on Mr. Wilson.

[SoTier]

The history of the Bills through most of Ralph Wilson's ownership is marked mostly by a few instances of short-lived minor successes among season after season of losing.  Wilson had early success with cast offs and cheap players in the mid 1960s in the AFL but that lasted only about 4 years.  Wilson never gave up wanting to duplicate that success even though the changing circumstances in the NFL made it impossible to build a dominant team on a shoestring.

 

As the war for talent between the NFL and AFL ramped up, the Bills continuously lost out.  Even with the merger, the Bills struggled to bring in talent ... to the field, the sidelines, and the FO.  Until relatively recently, ticket sales were a major source of revenue for NFL teams, and it was poor ticket sales that triggered the Bills for hiring better HCs and players.

 

The Bills would hire a decent HC, he'd bring in some good players and win some games but the team never took the steps needed to get better.  Then the HC coach would leave, and the team would sink back into losing.  This happened with both Lou Saban in the 1970s and with Chuck Knox in the early 1980s (the Bills HC had control of the roster back then).  The Bills' collapse after Knox left resulted in low ticket sales again, and prompted Wilson to bring in some better talent into the FO in the person of Bill Polian. 

 

Polian's proteges, John Butler and AJ Smith, kept the team winning for a few years after Polian left, but the Bills and especially Wilson, never really adapted to the salary cap.  The team never invested in top talent where they could: FO and coaching staff.  They missed on top draft choices because of poor scouting and decision making in the draft process.  The choices of HC were mediocre at best.  The result was "the Drought".

 

I think that the changes that have occurred throughout the Bills organization since Pegula took over, especially in the FO -- from GM down to scouts and trainers -- suggests that the Pegulas are bringing a massive culture change to the Bills.  Under Wilson, the Bills had only about 21 or 22 winning seasons under Wilson in their 54 years of existence, and only about 17 post season appearances, the bulk of those coming during the Polian-Butler era.  In the 4 full seasons that the Pegulas have owned the team, the Bills have had 2 modest winning seasons and 1 playoff appearance. 

[SoCal Deek]

Did any of you Ralph bashes ever think that maybe he was never all that interested in spending a fortune on football players from the start? I’m not saying I know this to be true but I’m guessing that he bought a team in a minor league, and that those 60’s teams were assembled on the cheap, championships or not. So there he was when a league grew up around him, and he’s sitting on a team in a tiny rust belt city (not New York, Miami or San Diego) like the other owners. He did what he could. He went along with his peers. All the while probably wondering where his little minor league team by the lake went.