NoSaint Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: We don’t know if what he said was true or not. The Bills were trying to trade him and obviously preferred to do that before the $6M bonus kicked in. His point was that they weren’t going to cut him over the bonus. They’d pick it up and keep trying to trade him. That very well may be (and probably is) true. Reading comprehension issues do create a lot of the hot takes I’ll say that now that we know the terms it’s an interesting debate. Do you eat Tyrods dead money and get an early 3 now or hold him for the year and potentially get a comp 3 later (even as a good backup contract he’d likely be up there)? i think this has to indicate a mediocre vet (Yates, Moore, Anderson) type guys at sub $5m and no threat to start paired with an aggressive run at a rookie. That said, tyrods 7.5m dead plus a cheap vet gets you towards 10m+ between the contracts.... for the extra couple million I like Tyrod as a backup instead of Derek Anderson unless the relationship was totally poisoned (possible) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 2 minutes ago, NoSaint said: Reading comprehension issues do create a lot of the hot takes I’ll say that now that we know the terms it’s an interesting debate. Do you eat Tyrods dead money and get an early 3 now or hold him for the year and potentially get a comp 3 later (even as a good backup contract he’d likely be up there)? i think this has to indicate a mediocre vet (Yates, Moore, Anderson) type guys at sub $5m and no threat to start paired with an aggressive run at a rookie. That said, tyrods 7.5m dead plus a cheap vet gets you towards 10m+ between the contracts.... for the extra couple million I like Tyrod as a backup instead of Derek Anderson unless the relationship was totally poisoned (possible) To me it all depends on the rookie (and it’s tough to make that decision with FA coming first). If I’m getting a guy that can play now I’d prefer a cheap vet. If my guy is a year away I’d prefer a competent vet. For me, McCown probably checks those boxes the best. You can sign him and still have a few million saved from the Tyrod situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bills of Boston Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 (edited) My first choice is McCown and then either Rosen or Darnold cheap vet who can win while providing ideal mentorship to whatever rookie they choose to go with. Additionally moving on from McCown doesn’t create a massive locker room rift whenever the time comes. Couldn’t be rooting for this any harder. Edited March 11, 2018 by Bills of Boston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockinon Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 Ha ha ha ha. Boy, Rapaport really nailed that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boca BIlls Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 Just now, Rockinon said: Ha ha ha ha. Boy, Rapaport really nailed that one. Well he actually did nail it... The Bills were fine with paying Tyrod if it came down to it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 Just now, Rockinon said: Ha ha ha ha. Boy, Rapaport really nailed that one. Did he miss? What he said is likely true. The premise was “Bills will not cut Tyrod Taylor. They will pick up the option and continue trying to trade him or keep him if not.” We have no idea if they would have picked up the option but based on the return that they got it would have been the right decision. They may have gotten more after the option because his cost went down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 Don't hate on Rap. He probably helped the Bills get that first pick in the 3rd round. And technically he wasn't wrong because the Bills didn't cut TT. And we'll never know if they would have prior to the $6M roster bonus being due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boca BIlls Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 Just now, Doc said: Don't hate on Rap. He probably helped the Bills get that first pick in the 3rd round. He is our Andy Dalton! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 Just now, Boca BIlls said: He is our Andy Dalton! Quick, what's his charity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 IF. The problem here is people only want to read what they wish would happen and not look at what is quoted with open eyes. You cannot believe the majority of what you read pre free agency and pre draft. Everyrhing is a huge smoke screen. There are too many options out there at bridge QB to believe TT wasn’t on he short list of departures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 8 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: To me it all depends on the rookie (and it’s tough to make that decision with FA coming first). If I’m getting a guy that can play now I’d prefer a cheap vet. If my guy is a year away I’d prefer a competent vet. For me, McCown probably checks those boxes the best. You can sign him and still have a few million saved from the Tyrod situation. If we pencil in McCowm at 6.5 from last year and Tyrods dead at 7.5 we are at 14m for that roster slot. Saves $2m vs Tyrod staying and gets you a draft pick about 32 picks higher.... i could land on either side... I suppose that’s markets being efficient Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockinon Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 Whoa. Nobody is hating on Rapaport. The part where the Bills are fine with paying the 6mil signing bonus was kind of funny. At least it struck me that way. Jeez, lighten up. 3 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said: IF. The problem here is people only want to read what they wish would happen and not look at what is quoted with open eyes. You cannot believe the majority of what you read pre free agency and pre draft. Everyrhing is a huge smoke screen. There are too many options out there at bridge QB to believe TT wasn’t on he short list of departures. Exactly, the extra money and extra draft pick gives them more options. I honestly have no idea what will happen next. Really enjoying this off season, because it is so un predictable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: Did he miss? What he said is likely true. The premise was “Bills will not cut Tyrod Taylor. They will pick up the option and continue trying to trade him or keep him if not.” We have no idea if they would have picked up the option but based on the return that they got it would have been the right decision. They may have gotten more after the option because his cost went down. The Bills got a good deal with the trade of Taylor, and Cleveland, with a surplus of unusable picks, was able to get a good bridge qb. What made this deal appealing to Cleveland was that Taylor had a very manageable contract. In addition, they needed a credible qb for them to be in a better position to get a longer term deal for Landry, who made it known that he wasn't going to sign a deal with Cleveland if they didn't have an adequate qb. I respectfully disagree with you that the Bills were going to pick up the option for Tyrod. That wouldn't make sense. Teams that were interested in him simply had to wait it out knowing the Bills had little interest in retaining him. In my mind, at best, he wasn't going to get you more than a fourth or fifth round return. At that value he wouldn't have been worth the option bonus. Without question Beane significantly got more than what most people expected. Kudos to him. But this wasn't a heist. Cleveland is under tremendous pressure to immediately be respectable. Even if they take a highly rated qb at the top of the draft they still need an experienced qb to start the season. When all is said and done the big winner in this deal is Tyrod. He is going to a terrific situation for himself and leaving an organization and situation where their respective interests no longer matched. That is the essence of a good deal for both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 26 minutes ago, NoSaint said: If we pencil in McCowm at 6.5 from last year and Tyrods dead at 7.5 we are at 14m for that roster slot. Saves $2m vs Tyrod staying and gets you a draft pick about 32 picks higher.... i could land on either side... I suppose that’s markets being efficient Yep, the nightmare scenario IMO is throwing $18M plus at McCarron or Keenum to go with the dead money. 7 minutes ago, JohnC said: The Bills got a good deal with the trade of Taylor, and Cleveland, with a surplus of unusable picks, was able to get a good bridge qb. What made this deal appealing to Cleveland was that Taylor had a very manageable contract. In addition, they needed a credible qb for them to be in a better position to get a longer term deal for Landry, who made it known that he wasn't going to sign a deal with Cleveland if they didn't have an adequate qb. I respectfully disagree with you that the Bills were going to pick up the option for Tyrod. That wouldn't make sense. Teams that were interested in him simply had to wait it out knowing the Bills had little interest in retaining him. In my mind, at best, he wasn't going to get you more than a fourth or fifth round return. At that value he wouldn't have been worth the option bonus. Without question Beane significantly got more than what most people expected. Kudos to him. But this wasn't a heist. Cleveland is under tremendous pressure to immediately be respectable. Even if they take a highly rated qb at the top of the draft they still need an experienced qb to start the season. When all is said and done the big winner in this deal is Tyrod. He is going to a terrific situation for himself and leaving an organization and situation where their respective interests no longer matched. That is the essence of a good deal for both sides. Well they got the 1st pick of the 3rd round WITHOUT having to pay the bonus. That was the floor apparently. If a team was looking at $6M less the compensation may very well have went up and certainly not down. You underestimated the market. The deal certainly worked for both sides. We are in definite agreement. You are right that all deals don’t end up as wins for everyone but I think that this one does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 6 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: Yep, the nightmare scenario IMO is throwing $18M plus at McCarron or Keenum to go with the dead money. As we discussed in the 2018 cap thread it’s close to a wash when (if) the qb can actually win 1 or 2 games in his own late I’m the 4th quarter the extra $ expenditure would be well worth it. When the #’s come in for the last 2 signings there will still be $30 mil of cap space. For a FA QB $15 - $18 still leaves $12 - $15 mil in space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: Well they got the 1st pick of the 3rd round WITHOUT having to pay the bonus. This was the real surprise for me. If we had agreed to pay the $6 million as part of the trade I think most Bills fans would have been fine with that. I still don't know how Beane managed to get this deal. Edited March 11, 2018 by HappyDays 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 Just now, ShadyBillsFan said: As we discussed in the 2018 cap thread it’s close to a wash when (if) the qb can actually win 1 or 2 games in his own late I’m the 4th quarter the extra $ expenditure would be well worth it. When the #’s come in for the last 2 signings there will still be $30 mil of cap space. For a FA QB $15 - $18 still leaves $12 - $15 mil in space. It’s not close to a wash. You need to add the $7.64m I’m dead money to their contract. If McCarron is at $18M (just using simple contracts for illustration purposes) we are paying $25.64M of cap space on the combination of Taylor and McCarron. That is not a good use of resources IMO. I’d much prefer $7M to McCown. Whoever the the vet is, he will be nothing more than a placeholder. I don’t think and extra $11M of cap space is worth it. I’d rather use that to sign 2 other starters or 1 impact player. If I asked would you rather have McCarron and Rosen or McCown, Rosen, Navarro Bowman and Paul Richardson which would you prefer? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: It’s not close to a wash. You need to add the $7.64m I’m dead money to their contract. If McCarron is at $18M (just using simple contracts for illustration purposes) we are paying $25.64M of cap space on the combination of Taylor and McCarron. That is not a good use of resources IMO. I’d much prefer $7M to McCown. Whoever the the vet is, he will be nothing more than a placeholder. I don’t think and extra $11M of cap space is worth it. I’d rather use that to sign 2 other starters or 1 impact player. If I asked would you rather have McCarron and Rosen or McCown, Rosen, Navarro Bowman and Paul Richardson which would you prefer? It all depends on who the FA is. 2 or 3 more wins and some playoff wins to me are worth it for 1 season. Besides the dead money is still there no matter what. Edited March 11, 2018 by ShadyBillsFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy10 Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Rockinon said: Ha ha ha ha. Boy, Rapaport really nailed that one. You really think teams are supposed to publicly disclose all of their potential negotiating points, and not employ any misdirection at all? I get as annoyed with sports reporters as anyone, but not for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 Just now, ShadyBillsFan said: It all depends on who the FA is. 2 or 3 more wins and some playoff wins to me are worth it for 1 season. I guess then I don’t believe that McCarron is worth 2-3 more wins than McCown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: I guess then I don’t believe that McCarron is worth 2-3 more wins than McCown. If McCown stays healthy for the duration, that is. But he's a better QB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, GG said: If McCown stays healthy for the duration, that is. But he's a better QB If he gets hurt you turn it over to the rookie. If the rookie is Baker or Rosen they may be starting by opening day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 McCown is gonna be in high demand. He's the perfect Bridge QB. He can probably give you another year of top 15 QB play and won't get more than a 1 year deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said: Yep, the nightmare scenario IMO is throwing $18M plus at McCarron or Keenum to go with the dead money. Well they got the 1st pick of the 3rd round WITHOUT having to pay the bonus. That was the floor apparently. If a team was looking at $6M less the compensation may very well have went up and certainly not down. You underestimated the market. The deal certainly worked for both sides. We are in definite agreement. You are right that all deals don’t end up as wins for everyone but I think that this one does. McCarron/Keenum for 18m plus 7m dead sure would be worst case for me now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 45 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: I guess then I don’t believe that McCarron is worth 2-3 more wins than McCown. I agree. But there are others out there. You are speaking to one or two. I was speaking to all QBs in the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaCrispy Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 14 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said: McCown is gonna be in high demand. He's the perfect Bridge QB. He can probably give you another year of top 15 QB play and won't get more than a 1 year deal. I would offer him $12 million for 1 year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: If he gets hurt you turn it over to the rookie. If the rookie is Baker or Rosen they may be starting by opening day. If Nate is on the team and the starter gets hurt they will go through him before the rookie. McD has shown he isn’t willing to throw rookies in unless he’s desperate. And he must have been desperate the week before the Chargers game. Edited March 11, 2018 by ShadyBillsFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domdab99 Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 If the Bills are moving up to get, say, Rosen...I don't even think we need a bridge QB. Let Peterman and Rosen battle it out in camp. Bring in a camp QB as 3rd string. Use all of that cap space to go get some top FAs like Norwell and Bowman, maybe a speedster like Richardson. If that means 2018 isn't a playoff year, so what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 6 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said: I agree. But there are others out there. You are speaking to one or two. I was speaking to all QBs in the mix. If McCarron and Keenum aren’t 2-3 wins better than McCown which of the available QBs are? Cousins maybe, but we aren’t in on him. That’s the exact point that I am making. If you are going to get about the same results from any of them give me the guy that’s $7M over the guy that is $18M. 6 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said: If Nate is on the team and the starter gets hurt they will go through him before the rookie. McD has shown he isn’t willing to throw rookies in unless he’s desperate. And he must have been desperate the week before the Chargers game. Not the case at all, he will go with the best player. That will be the rookie. He showed that he was willing to go with a terrible 5th round rookie (at least for a half) why do you think that he wouldn’t go to his blue-chip top 5 prospect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 26 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: If McCarron and Keenum aren’t 2-3 wins better than McCown which of the available QBs are? Cousins maybe, but we aren’t in on him. That’s the exact point that I am making. If you are going to get about the same results from any of them give me the guy that’s $7M over the guy that is $18M. QBs are expensive when tagged as a starter. It’s unavoidable. Foles could be in the mix as well if rumors have any bearing. 26 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: Not the case at all, he will go with the best player. That will be the rookie. He showed that he was willing to go with a terrible 5th round rookie (at least for a half) why do you think that he wouldn’t go to his blue-chip top 5 prospect? And yet we don’t know who will be the best players until mid summer at the earliest. All of know is it’s time to move on and trust the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 20 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said: QBs are expensive when tagged as a starter. It’s unavoidable. Foles could be in the mix as well if rumors have any bearing. And yet we don’t know who will be the best players until mid summer at the earliest. All of know is it’s time to move on and trust the process. Foles could help but at a different cost (draft picks). I agree that QB’s are expensive and that’s why TT got a good return. He is good value. With the $7.64M of dead money on the Bills cap I don’t think $25M in cap space on Tyrod and Keenum is a smart move. That’s not a good use of your resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 Kirby. As well you know I wanted Taylor gone. I’m good with the cost. It’s the price of advancement. Happy Dance ?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said: I guess then I don’t believe that McCarron is worth 2-3 more wins than McCown. You might be right. (I like McCown more than most people; I thought he played very well for the Jets last year, under the circumstances.) But the interesting thing about AJ McCarron is that no one knows how good he can become. Maybe McCarron's another Jimmy Garappolo; Cleveland saw enough last year that they were going to give up a second and a third for him. (I know, not really a ringing endorsement.) The Bills will still pick a QB early if they sign McCarron, but McCarron gives them another chance (albeit a relatively small one) to find a franchise QB. McCown, although a good bridge guy, doesn't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 15 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said: Kirby. As well you know I wanted Taylor gone. I’m good with the cost. It’s the price of advancement. Happy Dance ?. So you are cool paying $25M worth of cap space to McCarron but not $18M to Tyrod? We (strongly) disagree if that is the case. 1 minute ago, mannc said: You might be right. (I like McCown more than most people; I thought he played very well for the Jets last year, under the circumstances.) But the interesting thing about AJ McCarron is that no one knows how good he can become. Maybe McCarron's another Jimmy Garappolo; Cleveland saw enough last year that they were going to give up a second and a third for him. (I know, not really a ringing endorsement.) The Bills will still pick a QB early if they sign McCarron, but McCarron gives them another chance (albeit a relatively small one) to find a franchise QB. McCown, although a good bridge guy, doesn't. I don’t disagree that there is a chance but the small chance isn’t worth the large investment. If McCarron is $7-$10M I am okay with it. If he gets a Glennon contract I think it is stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: I don’t disagree that there is a chance but the small chance isn’t worth the large investment. If McCarron is $7-$10M I am okay with it. If he gets a Glennon contract I think it is stupid. If the Bills are planning to give up a bunch of picks to move into the top 4, then I agree that McCarron probably doesn't make sense, since they will expect that rookie to start sooner rather than later. But he might make sense if the Bills aren't in love with any of the Big 4 and either don't plan to move up at all, or would only move up to 10 or so if one of the Big 4 slides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 2 minutes ago, mannc said: If the Bills are planning to give up a bunch of picks to move into the top 4, then I agree that McCarron probably doesn't make sense, since they will expect that rookie to start sooner rather than later. But he might make sense if the Bills aren't in love with any of the Big 4 and either don't plan to move up at all, or would only move up to 10 or so if one of the Big 4 slides. We are on the same page on this. I am assuming that they are going into the top 5 for a young guy. I think that they pick a guy and hopefully get it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 28 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: So you are cool paying $25M worth of cap space to McCarron but not $18M to Tyrod? We (strongly) disagree if that is the case. Why are you so fixated on McCarron? I have never said I had any interest in him. No. For the hundredth time. I was done with Taylor(last season) and now he’s no longer a worry of mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 Just now, ShadyBillsFan said: Why are you so fixated on McCarron? I have never said I had any interest in him. No. For the hundredth time. I was done with Taylor(last season) and now he’s no longer a worry of mine. But that is the situation. If you want a McCarron or Keenum it will be that price. That’s why I don’t want them. You can’t just say “i want or don’t want ____.” You have to factor in the cost. It is the most important part. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: But that is the situation. If you want a McCarron or Keenum it will be that price. That’s why I don’t want them. You can’t just say “i want or don’t want ____.” You have to factor in the cost. It is the most important part. In any other year I'd agree with you, but with Cleveland now out of free agent QB market and assuming Cousins goes to Minnesota, you're left with Bills, Arizona, Denver, and Jets in market for a vet QB. McCown is going to Jets or maybe Bills as a Bridge QB. Denver and Arizona are the only teams who might give a big contract to McCarron or Keenum and if one them goes the Foles route, McCarron or Keenum will be lucky to get a $10m per year deal. Total buyers market for free agent QB's. Never remember a year like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real McClappy Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 (edited) This is Beane Edited March 11, 2018 by Real McCoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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