channel 2- Buffalo comments re alleged Incognito...

[3rdand12]

1 minute ago, NoSaint said:

 

I get it and on some days am exhausted by the discussion too. Some times people get incredibly aggressive in their quest to condemn and ruin people

 

It’s just this is one of those spots where it’s also disheartening to see so many people seemingly defend the idea of calling a guy a racial slur cause maybe it helps us win or is just the way it is. If he did it - it’s a crappy thing to do. It’s not the end of the world but its not ok either.

methinks you put too much thought here upon this.

 You surely are speaking to the general perspective. And if so i agree. I for one am self aware and can apologize.

but this is a game of Alpha males trying to win with every ounce to impose their will against the Opponent.

 in the real world the rules are different. and yes i can separate NFL football from daily living quite easily. not taking sides as much as i call the whole incident BS

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Dr Krentist said:

Here's an article regarding it https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/bills-call-alleged-racial-slur-by-richie-incognito-a-misunderstanding/

I find what Ngakoue said interesting:  On Monday, Ngakoue was asked if Incognito used the N-word. "I don't remember, but, he said what he said," the Jaguars defensive end said. "He knows what he said. I don't gotta repeat it."

I'm gonna have to side with Richie on this one.

 

IOW, “I don’t remember what he said but just trust me that it was bad.”

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, KingRex said:

racial comments in Jags game.

 

They had a bunch of professional football idiots like Jerry Sullivan commenting. Basically they said that the failure of Incognito and the team to simply say that the truth was Incognito and the team did not make any racial disparities was in itself deafening.

 

Actually, while I think Sully is an idiot, like a broken clock he is actually right twice a day.

 

They remarked that given that there is a void of official Bills commentary on the issue that Incognito given his history of dirty play early in his career in GB and the race based debacle in Miami, that Incognito does not get the benefit of the doubt.  He, Caruuci, and the other sport pundits are simply correct that while Incog deserves the right to say what he wants, the void left by not saying anything leaves, the fans, his teammates, and the media to reasonably assume Incognito guilty.

 

Too bad because he produces as a player, but if he continues to allow any good play by him to be overwhelmed by using racial slurs, the Bills should let Incognito go.

 

I hate it when solid football performers are idiots as human beings.

 

While

 

I think this shows Sully Carucci and the others are all idiots and they better hope neither they nor anyone they love is involved in an incident where the assumptions they want are made.  Absolutely any human being deserves a fair investigation without prejudgement.

 

If the incident is under investigation, the right thing to do is to shut up and let the investigation take its course.

 

The official Bills commentary is not absent.  It has been made that the issue is under investigation and they understand Incognito's side.

 

What about the absence of specifics from the Jags and the accuser?  One way to look at it is if specifics of what was said haven't been provided, maybe there's not much to it.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

 I give people the benefit of the doubt before proven guilty unlike the news media of all kinds

 

FIFY

[BringBackOrton]

22 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

I get it and on some days am exhausted by the discussion too. Some times people get incredibly aggressive in their quest to condemn and ruin people

 

It’s just this is one of those spots where it’s also disheartening to see so many people seemingly defend the idea of calling a guy a racial slur cause maybe it helps us win or is just the way it is. If he did it - it’s a crappy thing to do. It’s not the end of the world but its not ok either.

And that's my point with moral arbitration. 

 

Is it okay for Kevin Garnett to tell his opponent how many times he's slept with his wife?  You say, no, that's not okay.  But what if that gets in the opponents head and helps them win?  Isn't that what Garnett is paid to do?  Isn't that a part of the game, the mental aspect?

 

I think we all agree, morally speaking, that saying something racist is about the same as saying some other thing about wives/kids.  But at the end of the day, it's just words.

[yungmack]

1 hour ago, cba fan said:

This kind of thinking is totally lost on race baiting driven political individuals.

 

They fail to see how they themselves put race into it. Trump never put race into it. He commented on the sad state of economically and politically failed nation states being a cesspool.

 

Then the snowflakes say things like "we have many great immigrants from all countries and we should celebrate all of those people". Trump never said we should do anything different. He was asking to level the playing field. Why favor people from the failed countries over any people that want to come here? All applicants should have the same chance to immigrate here if they wish. Right?

 

We have room to allow all people of all backgrounds and economic levels and of course could give some weight to those in situations of impending doom to flee and make a better life in US.

 

Our self populating aged adults are not having kids at a self sustaining rate that a successful capitalism system requires. So we absolutely need legal immigration. But it should not all come from cesspool countries or well off countries. Should be a fair mix.

It all sounds made up. Jax has a history of trash talking. Would not be surprised they started the talk.

The immigration quotas from those Norwy type of countries tend to go begging because people from those places tend to be quite content with things at home. Most of us trace our ancestry to places that were "shitholes" at the time: Ireland, Italy, Poland, The Balkans, Ukraine, Hungary and all the other fringe European countries. BTW, African immigrants way out perform American blacks AND whites in academic achievement, entrance into professions and success in business.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Non racist people 

 

I care, but until I know exactly what was said and in what context I'm not rushing to judgement, and I'm certainly not saying that prior actions mean a rush to judgement is justified.

 

I think Sullivan and co. Just have too little controversy without Whaley to conduct end of season pressers they can shred like mad hyenas

[KingRex]

5 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

 

There is no benefit to him denying it. People who believe he did it won't accept it. All it will do is continue the trashing of his rep by keeping it a story in the media.

If one says something stupid after you have a history of being stupid then apologizing is a necessary thing to do if you choose to be a public figure.

 

Incog has decided to use his great talents in sports to profit from being a public figure.  If he4 wants to say whatever he wants he can easily do this by not becoming a public figure.  Like it or not Incog has chosen to put himself in a well compensated position which requires him to be a good entertainer, good teammate, and reasonable person.  he certainly failed to do this in Miami and by staying silent he laves the appearance that might also be the case here.Incog did not raise a question he might be a bad teammate in Miami, he made it clear he was not.

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, KingRex said:

If one says something stupid after you have a history of being stupid then apologizing is a necessary thing to do if you choose to be a public figure.

 

Incog has decided to use his great talents in sports to profit from being a public figure.  If he4 wants to say whatever he wants he can easily do this by not becoming a public figure.  Like it or not Incog has chosen to put himself in a well compensated position which requires him to be a good entertainer, good teammate, and reasonable person.  he certainly failed to do this in Miami and by staying silent he laves the appearance that might also be the case here.Incog did not raise a question he might be a bad teammate in Miami, he made it clear he was not.

WRONG.

 

They require him to be good at football.  Not parent your kids.

Edited January 14, 2018 by jmc12290

[yungmack]

23 minutes ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

 I give people the benefit of the doubt before proven guilty unlike the mainstream news media 

Any examples of the "mainstream media" doing this? Because what I see and hear is reporting on accusations, not claiming they're true. That's what reporters do. FOX news of course always moves from reports to claims of truth but its a full-on propaganda/House of Lies operation and is not considered a true mainstream news operation.

[The Frankish Reich]

26 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

IOW, “I don’t remember what he said but just trust me that it was bad.”

I'm guessing - and it's an educated guess, based in particular on what Richie is known to have done previously* - that it was more of a reference to Ngakoue's more recent (Cameroonian father if I understand it) African heritage, and not a general comment about African Americans.  I'm not excusing it, I'm just guessing as to what it was. Probably some kind of idiotic witch doctor reference or some such thing. Stupid, but not quite of the gravity of using the N word, etc. Kind of like someone stupidly ribbing Richie with Italian ancestry.

*Remember, the Martin investigation showed Richie and Pouncey making racial comments about an Asian American assistant trainer.

Edited January 14, 2018 by The Frankish Reich

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, yungmack said:

The immigration quotas from those Norwy type of countries tend to go begging because people from those places tend to be quite content with things at home. Most of us trace our ancestry to places that were "shitholes" at the time: Ireland, Italy, Poland, The Balkans, Ukraine, Hungary and all the other fringe European countries. BTW, African immigrants way out perform American blacks AND whites in academic achievement, entrance into professions and success in business.

 

Yeah, not wanting to turn this into PPP but you're right on with that last.  When I worked in Big Industry, we had ~a proportional number of people of color in our development groups including group leaders, senior directors, etc etc.  

 

EVERY SINGLE ONE of those people of color was from another country, either Africa or Great Britain or Jamaica.  EVERY SINGLE ONE.  And I was on hiring teams.  I know for damn sure we recruited hard and would have been delighted to hire technical people and scientists from minority groups.  Any time we had a temp worker with a good work ethic and smarts we snapped them up. 

 

If you talk to blacks who have moved here from other countries they are totally mystified by what has become mainstream American black culture and values.

[Big Turk]

Who cares to be honest. His teammates who were there claim he didnt say it, all you have is a he said-he said thing. 

 

Take this politically correct BS somewhere else. Its like the people who have got all this stuff to say about slavery in this country 200 years ago but conveniently leave out that slavery in Africa itself among its own people was going on long before that and continues to this day unabated.  

Edited January 14, 2018 by matter2003

[Koko78]

11 minutes ago, KingRex said:

If one says something stupid after you have a history of being stupid then apologizing is a necessary thing to do if you choose to be a public figure.

 

Incog has decided to use his great talents in sports to profit from being a public figure.  If he4 wants to say whatever he wants he can easily do this by not becoming a public figure.  Like it or not Incog has chosen to put himself in a well compensated position which requires him to be a good entertainer, good teammate, and reasonable person.  he certainly failed to do this in Miami and by staying silent he laves the appearance that might also be the case here.Incog did not raise a question he might be a bad teammate in Miami, he made it clear he was not.

 

That's the thing, what did he say and what does he have to apologize for? The only one saying he did anything wrong is the Jagoff who laid an incredibly dirty hit on Tyrod. None of the Bills heard anything, and none of the other Jags heard anything. In fact, the Jagoff can't even remember what Incognito supposedly said.

 

This 'I don't remember what he said, but he knows what he said' situation reeks of bull ****.

[3rdand12]

3 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

 

That's the thing, what did he say and what does he have to apologize for? The only one saying he did anything wrong is the Jagoff who laid an incredibly dirty hit on Tyrod. None of the Bills heard anything, and none of the other Jags heard anything. In fact, the Jagoff can't even remember what Incognito supposedly said.

 

This 'I don't remember what he said, but he knows what he said' situation reeks of bull ****.

them Cameroonians are all the same I tell ya

[Mrbojanglezs]

5 minutes ago, yungmack said:

Any examples of the "mainstream media" doing this? Because what I see and hear is reporting on accusations, not claiming they're true. That's what reporters do. FOX news of course always moves from reports to claims of truth but its a full-on propaganda/House of Lies operation and is not considered a true mainstream news operation.

Rolling Stone rape story.

Hands up don't shoot

Trump Russia collusion 24/7

Edited George Zimmerman tape

Katie couric gun documentary

 

Just a few off top of my head. Racist comments lights the fire of the media so they will talk about it endlessly before facts come out then won't retract anything they said later on. 

 

Wrong forum for this, but both jaguars and bills players deny hearing anything so why does it need to be talked about on the news. Wait until an investigation is complete and facts are out. When the jaguars player was asked about it he said he couldn't remember what incognito said.

 

[NoSaint]

3 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

And that's my point with moral arbitration. 

 

Is it okay for Kevin Garnett to tell his opponent how many times he's slept with his wife?  You say, no, that's not okay.  But what if that gets in the opponents head and helps them win?  Isn't that what Garnett is paid to do?  Isn't that a part of the game, the mental aspect?

 

I think we all agree, morally speaking, that saying something racist is about the same as saying some other thing about wives/kids.  But at the end of the day, it's just words.

 

There are a few things that I think are effecting my take here—

 

1) I’ve never been big on the sports are battle and anything goes on the battlefield. It’s a game for most, and a job for a few. I know that ruins some of the mystique of it— but such is life in my world view. Work hard, play hard- be a man you can be proud of... I wouldn’t feel particularly good about being a guy that needed to use racial slurs to win, and I’m not so sure it helps as much as some think.

 

2) while I think racism should be condemned, I don’t think an off comment should ruin your entire life, forever and ever. We should be able to say a comment is racist without it being a life sentence. If someone is consistently and intentionally acting out that’s different than a one off lost in the moment comment  

 

It obviously gets blurry and organizations and consumers will make their own choices. Much like the debate between celebrating big hits vs not liking the consequences — the nfl has to figure out the balance between competitive banter and what constitutes crossing the line. Words way less scary than head shots though.

[Doc]

23 minutes ago, KingRex said:

If one says something stupid after you have a history of being stupid then apologizing is a necessary thing to do if you choose to be a public figure.

 

Incog has decided to use his great talents in sports to profit from being a public figure.  If he4 wants to say whatever he wants he can easily do this by not becoming a public figure.  Like it or not Incog has chosen to put himself in a well compensated position which requires him to be a good entertainer, good teammate, and reasonable person.  he certainly failed to do this in Miami and by staying silent he laves the appearance that might also be the case here.Incog did not raise a question he might be a bad teammate in Miami, he made it clear he was not.

 

If he said nothing wrong and there is nothing to prove he said anything wrong, what does he have to apologize for?  If nothing comes of this, and it doesn't appear that there will be, that Jags player is the one who should be apologizing.   

Edited January 14, 2018 by Doc

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, NoSaint said:

 

There are a few things that I think are effecting my take here—

 

1) I’ve never been big on the sports are battle and anything goes on the battlefield. It’s a game for most, and a job for a few. I know that ruins some of the mystique of it— but such is life in my world view. Work hard, play hard- be a man you can be proud of... I wouldn’t feel particularly good about being a guy that needed to use racial slurs to win, and I’m not so sure it helps as much as some think.

 

2) while I think racism should be condemned, I don’t think an off comment should ruin your entire life, forever and ever. We should be able to say a comment is racist without it being a life sentence. If someone is consistently and intentionally acting out that’s different than a one off lost in the moment comment  

 

It obviously gets blurry and organizations and consumers will make their own choices. Much like the debate between celebrating big hits vs not liking the consequences — the nfl has to figure out the balance between competitive banter and what constitutes crossing the line. Words way less scary than head shots though.

1) I respect that and I understand.  I think you are a person who respects the Belichickian gamesmanship and pushing the envelope on the rules, right?  There's some obvious parallels there, even though its an imperfect analogy.  Some folks don't want to "cheat" to win or be asses to win.  It's not me, though. I keep separate from all of that.  There's things others do and say that I wouldn't, but that's a personal choice and a personal line.

 

2) I thought you said it was a fireable offense?

[3rdand12]

5 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

There are a few things that I think are effecting my take here—

 

1) I’ve never been big on the sports are battle and anything goes on the battlefield. It’s a game for most, and a job for a few. I know that ruins some of the mystique of it— but such is life in my world view. Work hard, play hard- be a man you can be proud of... I wouldn’t feel particularly good about being a guy that needed to use racial slurs to win, and I’m not so sure it helps as much as some think.

 

2) while I think racism should be condemned, I don’t think an off comment should ruin your entire life, forever and ever. We should be able to say a comment is racist without it being a life sentence. If someone is consistently and intentionally acting out that’s different than a one off lost in the moment comment  

 

It obviously gets blurry and organizations and consumers will make their own choices. Much like the debate between celebrating big hits vs not liking the consequences — the nfl has to figure out the balance between competitive banter and what constitutes crossing the line. Words way less scary than head shots though.

+1 for #2

[JerseyBills]

That game was a dog fight. Very physical. Since seeing the allegation, I thought it might have just been a bitter Jaguar player trying to get under his skin , or in this case , ruining his career. I don't think the allegations stick, no proof, not one other player Said they heard him say anything. 

It's not what you know, it's what you can prove

[starrymessenger]

I don't think Ritchie is a racist, but he has said racist things lol. 

Seriously I think that Ritchie is sort of an A-hole, but I really like good guard play. There are lots of nasty things that are said (and done) in the pit that I'm sure are as offensive as racial slurs. At the end of the day Ritchie is just a football player. It's not like he's the President of the United States or anything. So I find it easy to look the other way. 

But, speaking as a foreigner, and with all due and sincere respect, I think you folks are f#@&ed.

[Misterbluesky]

3 hours ago, KingRex said:

racial comments in Jags game.

 

They had a bunch of professional football idiots like Jerry Sullivan commenting. Basically they said that the failure of Incognito and the team to simply say that the truth was Incognito and the team did not make any racial disparities was in itself deafening.

 

Actually, while I think Sully is an idiot, like a broken clock he is actually right twice a day.

 

They remarked that given that there is a void of official Bills commentary on the issue that Incognito given his history of dirty play early in his career in GB and the race based debacle in Miami, that Incognito does not get the benefit of the doubt.  He, Caruuci, and the other sport pundits are simply correct that while Incog deserves the right to say what he wants, the void left by not saying anything leaves, the fans, his teammates, and the media to reasonably assume Incognito guilty.

 

Too bad because he produces as a player, but if he continues to allow any good play by him to be overwhelmed by using racial slurs, the Bills should let Incognito go.

 

I hate it when solid football performers are idiots as human beings.

 

While

He wrote the same crap in the BN this week..it's the off season and he is not a Bills fan...so he needs to get the fans upset about something.Also..what he's saying is Dawkins and Wood are liars.

[KingRex]

7 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

WRONG.

 

They require him to be good at football.  Not parent your kids.

One of the good thing HC McD has done to turn the Bills into a playoff team is to change the culture of the organization.  Judging people based on non-character items is a stupid character flaw in and of itself. 

 

No one expects him to parent their kid, but his teammates can reasonably demand that he judges people based on their character and not on irrelevant issues.  The Bills players also represent our community, Incog has already burned through any benefit of the doubt with his concerted campaign to undercut a teammate in Miami. 

[Kelly the Dog]

Dion Dawkins, who was next to him on the play, and next to him most of the season, said he didn't hear anything like it, and that if Incognito ever said anything racially offensive, Dawkins would have been in his face himself.

 

Doesn't mean it totally didn't happen. I assume he said something stupid. But it may not have been so bad.

[BringBackOrton]

5 minutes ago, KingRex said:

One of the good thing HC McD has done to turn the Bills into a playoff team is to change the culture of the organization.  Judging people based on non-character items is a stupid character flaw in and of itself. 

 

No one expects him to parent their kid, but his teammates can reasonably demand that he judges people based on their character and not on irrelevant issues.  The Bills players also represent our community, Incog has already burned through any benefit of the doubt with his concerted campaign to undercut a teammate in Miami. 

No man.  He just works here and gets paid a lot.  Richie Incognito's character doesn't represent ****.

Edited January 14, 2018 by jmc12290

[NoSaint]

Just now, jmc12290 said:

1) I respect that and I understand.  I think you are a person who respects the Belichickian gamesmanship and pushing the envelope on the rules, right?  There's some obvious parallels there, even though its an imperfect analogy.  Some folks don't want to "cheat" to win or be asses to win.  It's not me, though. I keep separate from all of that.  There's things others do and say that I wouldn't, but that's a personal choice and a personal line.

 

2) I thought you said it was a fireable offense?

 

1) I’m fine with pushing hard within the rules. I’m not big on cheating. I also probably come across as being on that side for some of the similar reasons you replied to this thread the way you did. I think we have folks here that get so overzealous trying to point everything out that it gets to be a “c’mon man” on some of it.

 

2) I think it’d be fine to fire him if he pulled out the n word verifiably. I don’t think he’d need to be permanently banished from civilization though. Heck, he’s got quite the history and I’m not trying it there protesting his current employment.

 

Shades of gray and judgment calls and such... Weird to have that in a discussion these days, I know. Racism, wrong (easy red line for me), how to address it varies widely by situation though and no singular answer. I’m down for supporting a baseline of “hey dude, that’s not cool” instead of celebrating it, and making it uncomfortable as a blanket starting point and escalating from there if it’s extreme or impactful. It’s disappointing to me that’s controversial 

[KingRex]

1 minute ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Dion Dawkins, who was next to him on the play, and next to him most of the season, said he didn't hear anything like it, and that if Incognito ever said anything racially offensive, Dawkins would have been in his face himself.

It may be that Dion unlike Incog stands up for his teammates.

4 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

No man.  He just works here and gets paid a lot.  Richie Incognito's character doesn't represent ****.

I'm sure Bill Belicheat agrees with you.

[Big Turk]

11 minutes ago, Misterbluesky said:

He wrote the same crap in the BN this week..it's the off season and he is not a Bills fan...so he needs to get the fans upset about something.Also..what he's saying is Dawkins and Wood are liars.

 

Maybe he should stick to covering the Cavs so LeBron can clown him after every game in the post game press conference.

[BringBackOrton]

5 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

1) I’m fine with pushing hard within the rules. I’m not big on cheating. I also probably come across as being on that side for some of the similar reasons you replied to this thread the way you did. I think we have folks here that get so overzealous trying to point everything out that it gets to be a “c’mon man” on some of it.

 

2) I think it’d be fine to fire him if he pulled out the n word verifiably. I don’t think he’d need to be permanently banished from civilization though. Heck, he’s got quite the history and I’m not trying it there protesting his current employment.

 

Shades of gray and judgment calls and such... Weird to have that in a discussion these days, I know. Racism, wrong (easy red line for me), how to address it varies widely by situation though and no singular answer. I’m down for supporting a baseline of “hey dude, that’s not cool” instead of celebrating it, and making it uncomfortable as a blanket starting point and escalating from there if it’s extreme or impactful. It’s disappointing to me that’s controversial 

Well, here's the thing, not to get all down into it.  But does using racist language make you a "racist?"  Richie Incognito may be a loathsome brute, who acts stupid and says even stupider stuff, but is he a racist if he said something racial to Ngakoue?

 

We have inappropriate definitions for things, with vague lines, and a tense climate when discussing it.  It's not shocking that it's controversial at all, too me.  Everybody has a view and a stance, and we are all imperfect communicators at times. 

 

My thinking is that if you pooled all people and found out how they truly "felt," 90% would all be in basic agreement.  The other lunatic fringe is just that.

Edited January 14, 2018 by jmc12290

[CEN-CAL17]

We all know that specific person where no matter what you say, they think everything that comes out is racist. I’ve seen players on both sides say they never heard crap!

 

This whole story is just dumb! This is a Michael Bennett in Vegas story!!! 

[Rob's House]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

 

I get it and on some days am exhausted by the discussion too. Some times people get incredibly aggressive in their quest to condemn and ruin people

 

It’s just this is one of those spots where it’s also disheartening to see so many people seemingly defend the idea of calling a guy a racial slur cause maybe it helps us win or is just the way it is. If he did it - it’s a crappy thing to do. It’s not the end of the world but its not ok either.

I like this approach. What bothers me about these situations is the lack of proportionality. It's never enough to say "that was a dick move, don't be such an !@#$," in these situations. Instead the race nuts act like any potentially racist comment is morally equivalent to raping a baby. 

[Koko78]

39 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

them Cameroonians are all the same I tell ya

 

Yeah, you know what they say about Cameroonians...

[BringBackOrton]

17 minutes ago, KingRex said:

It may be that Dion unlike Incog stands up for his teammates.

I'm sure Bill Belicheat agrees with you.

How many rings does he have again?

[Doc]

5 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

Yeah, you know what they say about Cameroonians...

 

 That they like beef jerky? 

[Koko78]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

 That they like beef jerky? 

 

Amongst other things. Venison jerky being a prime example.

[KingRex]

2 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

How many rings does he have again?

Not enough apparently since he seems to regularly be willing to cheat (based on his being found guilty of different transgressions of the rules at different times just to get competitive advantage. 

 

The amazing thing to me is his willingness to cheat whn the Pats are good enuf to win without cheating. 

 

If given the choice to be a winner with bad character or a loser with good character, I'd choose to be a loser, but maybe that's just me.

[Bob in STL]

36 minutes ago, yungmack said:

The immigration quotas from those Norwy type of countries tend to go begging because people from those places tend to be quite content with things at home. Most of us trace our ancestry to places that were "shitholes" at the time: Ireland, Italy, Poland, The Balkans, Ukraine, Hungary and all the other fringe European countries. BTW, African immigrants way out perform American blacks AND whites in academic achievement, entrance into professions and success in business.

What is a “fringe European country”?  That is ridiculous to say.  Immigration from these countries came because we had a huge need and the opportunity was there.  The European people in these countries where living in an oppressed and/or war torn environment.  America needed workers back then.  We had a vision of expansion - manifest destiny.  

 

Todays America is much different than what we had in 1900.  The land is now taken, the infrastructure built, and the manufacturing jobs born from the industrial revolution are mostly gone.  On top of that we have social programs that did not exist in 1900 that need funding and are strained.  Today we simply do not have the jobs to support immigration in large numbers.   We do need to be smart and selective.  Future job growth will be based on our ability to Innovate through science and technology.  Immigrants that can come here, assimilate, and thrive should be welcomed.  But it cannot happen in the mass droves of the European immigration of early 1900.  This does not make America rascist.  

 

Your stats on on the great performance of African Students - I don’t doubt that it isn’t impressive as a percentage but I don’t see it in my business as of yet.  

 

 

[Boatdrinks]

4 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

 

Amongst other things. Venison jerky being a prime example.

I was going to try wildebeest once when a store near me was stocking it. Next time I went there, they didn't have it anymore. It's too bad, I'd bet wildebeest jerky is the shiznit . 

[Doc]

I guess people missed the reference. 

[4th&long]

The president of the US is a racist and people don't care.