Denison and Tyrod should share the same fate

[KingRex]

One of the arguments I find odd is by folks who indict TT as being worthless as a QB and then seem to think this excuses Denison from blame for O suckitude (to use a technical term).

 

I have even seen apologies for RD that claim TTs lack of ability handcuffed RD.

 

Actually if one assesses TT as clearly being a bum, rather than this getting RD off the hook, it provides even another reason for canning him.

 

Sure blame TT for not making the right choice in the Run/Pass Option play RD called, but the blame for failure here rather than falling solely on TT actually has to start with RD giving the RPO to a QB some folks say is clearly inadequate.

 

If you hate TT and think he should be shown the door, then also sign right up to also get rid of RD for not calling for 3 straight run play from 1st and goal at the one.

 

Add to this, RD participated in the stupid decision to start NP against the Chargers. This was a stupid move not because Taylor is great (he ain't) but because this was a stupid attempt at developing Peterman.  I agree that he was one of (if not the) most ready to play QBs in the draft.  However, ready to play as a #2  or disaster QB and ready to start are two different things.

 

When your starter QB gets knocked out of the game it often seems to have the impact of the D laying back a little and the back-up does well.  I  call this the AVP effect a several times we saw Jimbo go down and AVP would come in and look like Joe Montana.  Then the next week, the opponent would have a week to study film and install disguised coverages Jimbo would have shredded and AVP would be destroyed.

 

RD and McD did NP and the Bills no favor by announcing early in the week NP would start, the opponent got to practice and lick there lips waiting for this NFFL concensus 5th round talent to start (even Tom Brady sat on the bench and learned the pro game until a freakish lung collapse injury removed Bledsoe in his second year.

 

Not only was the dumb decision to throw NP to the wolves made, but it was done in a manner that maximized his chances to fail. I had (and still hope) he can become a good pro, but RD and McD panicked and may have butchered his self-confidence  (that being said n the big picture a ton of praise and the rest of the team- including RD and TT for leading thi squad to the playoffs.

 

I for one hope they can find a better cheaper QB than  TT.  However, the truth is there a shortage of QBs in this league and I easily think of worse cases than trying to do better next year with a better trained and managed TT.  Still I much prefer we bite the bullet and overpay Cousins or trade vets for Andy Dalton.

 

However ,  think both RD and TT share the blame for many of our failings and given the cruddy job of developing NP I think RD is most accountable for O faiulure.

[8-8 Forever?]

tyrod limited what Dennison could do quite a bit in the passing game.   tt is too short... too many batted balls

[twoandfourteen]

5 hours ago, KingRex said:

One of the arguments I find odd is by folks who indict TT as being worthless as a QB and then seem to think this excuses Denison from blame for O suckitude (to use a technical term).

 

I have even seen apologies for RD that claim TTs lack of ability handcuffed RD.

 

Actually if one assesses TT as clearly being a bum, rather than this getting RD off the hook, it provides even another reason for canning him.

 

Sure blame TT for not making the right choice in the Run/Pass Option play RD called, but the blame for failure here rather than falling solely on TT actually has to start with RD giving the RPO to a QB some folks say is clearly inadequate.

 

If you hate TT and think he should be shown the door, then also sign right up to also get rid of RD for not calling for 3 straight run play from 1st and goal at the one.

 

Add to this, RD participated in the stupid decision to start NP against the Chargers. This was a stupid move not because Taylor is great (he ain't) but because this was a stupid attempt at developing Peterman.  I agree that he was one of (if not the) most ready to play QBs in the draft.  However, ready to play as a #2  or disaster QB and ready to start are two different things.

 

When your starter QB gets knocked out of the game it often seems to have the impact of the D laying back a little and the back-up does well.  I  call this the AVP effect a several times we saw Jimbo go down and AVP would come in and look like Joe Montana.  Then the next week, the opponent would have a week to study film and install disguised coverages Jimbo would have shredded and AVP would be destroyed.

 

RD and McD did NP and the Bills no favor by announcing early in the week NP would start, the opponent got to practice and lick there lips waiting for this NFFL concensus 5th round talent to start (even Tom Brady sat on the bench and learned the pro game until a freakish lung collapse injury removed Bledsoe in his second year.

 

Not only was the dumb decision to throw NP to the wolves made, but it was done in a manner that maximized his chances to fail. I had (and still hope) he can become a good pro, but RD and McD panicked and may have butchered his self-confidence  (that being said n the big picture a ton of praise and the rest of the team- including RD and TT for leading thi squad to the playoffs.

 

I for one hope they can find a better cheaper QB than  TT.  However, the truth is there a shortage of QBs in this league and I easily think of worse cases than trying to do better next year with a better trained and managed TT.  Still I much prefer we bite the bullet and overpay Cousins or trade vets for Andy Dalton.

 

However ,  think both RD and TT share the blame for many of our failings and given the cruddy job of developing NP I think RD is most accountable for O faiulure.

 

Ok, sure. Sounds good to me. 

 

Couldn't possibly care any less about the OC, whoever it is. 

 

He'll be an 8th-year veteran. I think that ship sailed a long time ago. 

[bmur66]

To the Pit of Misery?

 

[Jobot]

I'm not a football expert, but I trust that McDermott gets to the root cause(s) of why the offense was pitiful, and maybe Dennison is part of the problem.

 

We're all still under the assumption that the same O-line talent exists that led the league in rushing back to back years... But I saw our O-line guys getting dominated off the snap all year long.  I think we're going to continue to see major changes across the entire football team similar to the last off season.

 

Although the Bills only scored 3-pts against Jax... the offense did move the ball pretty well at points in the game (and controlled the game clock for the first 3 qtrs).  I think the coaching staff squeezed everything they could get out of the players that they had.  So it wouldn't shock me if Dennsion stays if they determine that player talent was the limiting factor. 

 

Also let's be real the defense giving up only 10 pts is with many thanks to Bortles being absolute garbage... A good qb puts up at least double that under the same conditions.

[xsoldier54]

1 hour ago, bmur66 said:

To the Pit of Misery?

 

Dilly Dilly!  You had to know that was coming, lol.

[MAJBobby]

6 hours ago, KingRex said:

One of the arguments I find odd is by folks who indict TT as being worthless as a QB and then seem to think this excuses Denison from blame for O suckitude (to use a technical term).

 

I have even seen apologies for RD that claim TTs lack of ability handcuffed RD.

 

Actually if one assesses TT as clearly being a bum, rather than this getting RD off the hook, it provides even another reason for canning him.

 

Sure blame TT for not making the right choice in the Run/Pass Option play RD called, but the blame for failure here rather than falling solely on TT actually has to start with RD giving the RPO to a QB some folks say is clearly inadequate.

 

If you hate TT and think he should be shown the door, then also sign right up to also get rid of RD for not calling for 3 straight run play from 1st and goal at the one.

 

Add to this, RD participated in the stupid decision to start NP against the Chargers. This was a stupid move not because Taylor is great (he ain't) but because this was a stupid attempt at developing Peterman.  I agree that he was one of (if not the) most ready to play QBs in the draft.  However, ready to play as a #2  or disaster QB and ready to start are two different things.

 

When your starter QB gets knocked out of the game it often seems to have the impact of the D laying back a little and the back-up does well.  I  call this the AVP effect a several times we saw Jimbo go down and AVP would come in and look like Joe Montana.  Then the next week, the opponent would have a week to study film and install disguised coverages Jimbo would have shredded and AVP would be destroyed.

 

RD and McD did NP and the Bills no favor by announcing early in the week NP would start, the opponent got to practice and lick there lips waiting for this NFFL concensus 5th round talent to start (even Tom Brady sat on the bench and learned the pro game until a freakish lung collapse injury removed Bledsoe in his second year.

 

Not only was the dumb decision to throw NP to the wolves made, but it was done in a manner that maximized his chances to fail. I had (and still hope) he can become a good pro, but RD and McD panicked and may have butchered his self-confidence  (that being said n the big picture a ton of praise and the rest of the team- including RD and TT for leading thi squad to the playoffs.

 

I for one hope they can find a better cheaper QB than  TT.  However, the truth is there a shortage of QBs in this league and I easily think of worse cases than trying to do better next year with a better trained and managed TT.  Still I much prefer we bite the bullet and overpay Cousins or trade vets for Andy Dalton.

 

However ,  think both RD and TT share the blame for many of our failings and given the cruddy job of developing NP I think RD is most accountable for O faiulure.

 

3 years with regression

 

1st year OC with a QB that is regressing 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, KingRex said:

One of the arguments I find odd is by folks who indict TT as being worthless as a QB and then seem to think this excuses Denison from blame for O suckitude (to use a technical term).   I have even seen apologies for RD that claim TTs lack of ability handcuffed RD.

 

Actually if one assesses TT as clearly being a bum, rather than this getting RD off the hook, it provides even another reason for canning him.

 (...)

 

I for one hope they can find a better cheaper QB than  TT.  However, the truth is there a shortage of QBs in this league and I easily think of worse cases than trying to do better next year with a better trained and managed TT.  Still I much prefer we bite the bullet and overpay Cousins or trade vets for Andy Dalton.

 

However ,  think both RD and TT share the blame for many of our failings and given the cruddy job of developing NP I think RD is most accountable for O faiulure.

 

Overall, after giving it probably too much thought, I agree with you.  I'm persuaded Dennison is a clever guy, a guy who can pick apart opponents film and personnel and design solid plays that will work in the abstract against those coverages.  I think the evidence points to, he's the kind of guy who doesn't spend enough time learning the limitations and strengths of his players in practice and taking them into account, or teaching them effectively.   

 

I think all agree that TT is not The Man for the Bills at QB.  You can see his ceiling, and it's Alex Smith (effective, but not quite good enough), not Aaron Rodgers.  He is what he is at this point, and the question is just do you move on right now, or keep him as a bridge and mentor?

 

Some here (Shaw66 for example) have made a good point that when the assistant doesn't do what the boss wants, the right thing is for the boss to talk to him and request change.  I think that would be a great idea for a newly-promoted OC or a guy who's been an OC for only a couple years.  Dennison has been in the league 10 years.  I think you say "he is what he is", also, at this point.

14 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

3 years with regression

 

1st year OC with a QB that is regressing 

 

The point to be made is, just why is that QB "regressing"?

[artmalibu]

Denison is not TTs first coordinator.  Last year TT had a great running attack and looks like the weapons he had last year were not the problem.   

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, 8-8 Forever? said:

tyrod limited what Dennison could do quite a bit in the passing game.   tt is too short... too many batted balls

 

It's not because he's short per se.  Russ Wilson is shorter.  Drew Brees is alleged to be the same height.  Aaron Rodgers is asserted to be 2" taller.  Does 2" really make a difference against 6'5" DL?  (laws of optics say, "not")

 

What Taylor lacks that ability to sense pressure and shift around in the pocket to find throwing lanes and buy himself time.  Rodgers has it.  Brees has it in spades.  Cousins seems to have it.  Alex Smith does not have it.  I'm told it's something that's difficult or impossible to teach - you either have it, or you don't.

[Dadonkadonk]

5 minutes ago, artmalibu said:

Denison is not TTs first coordinator.  Last year TT had a great running attack and looks like the weapons he had last year were not the problem.   

Watkins was injured. At one point they were on their 7th and 8th WR.

Dennison made TT and offense worse. All the complaints about TT not throwing over the middle or going through progressions were disproved. Dennison changed blocking scheme on number 1 rush offense in NFL. At the bye, players revolted and scheme had to be changed mid-season.

They both must go.

[yungmack]

No one in their right mind thinks Tyrod is, or ever will be, a transcendent talent. But the offense was pretty darn good - not great, but good - until Dennison showed up.

[Heavy Kevi]

Clevelamd?

[uticaclub]

The one thing constant between Tyrod every OC, is the number of plays left on the field that the QB simply isn't making. Get rid of both, the "top 10 offense" from 2016 was highly inflated with points against 9ers, Browns and garbage time in games we were losing by 2 scores late in the 4th, we would score to make the score look respectable but the game was out of reach all day because Tyrod couldn't execute until the game was over. It's been 3 years, 44 starts, the Tyrod era is over if you like it or not. He misses too many open receivers, he's 1 read or run and the rest of the league caught up. This is !@#$ing nonsense Peterman sucks too, bring in 3 new QBs and an OC. QB more important  

[MAJBobby]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Overall, after giving it probably too much thought, I agree with you.  I'm persuaded Dennison is a clever guy, a guy who can pick apart opponents film and personnel and design solid plays that will work in the abstract against those coverages.  I think the evidence points to, he's the kind of guy who doesn't spend enough time learning the limitations and strengths of his players in practice and taking them into account, or teaching them effectively.   

 

I think all agree that TT is not The Man for the Bills at QB.  You can see his ceiling, and it's Alex Smith (effective, but not quite good enough), not Aaron Rodgers.  He is what he is at this point, and the question is just do you move on right now, or keep him as a bridge and mentor?

 

Some here (Shaw66 for example) have made a good point that when the assistant doesn't do what the boss wants, the right thing is for the boss to talk to him and request change.  I think that would be a great idea for a newly-promoted OC or a guy who's been an OC for only a couple years.  Dennison has been in the league 10 years.  I think you say "he is what he is", also, at this point.

 

The point to be made is, just why is that QB "regressing"?

Because he hit his ceiling year one.  that just really is the reality, once teams figured out who TT was there was not surprise to him anymore

[BuffaloBillyG]

5 hours ago, bmur66 said:

To the Pit of Misery?

 

Dilly dilly

[BillsFan130]

21 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Because he hit his ceiling year one.  that just really is the reality, once teams figured out who TT was there was not surprise to him anymore

Maybe so, but Dennison also didn’t build an offence towards TTs skill set like Roman did.

 

You can’t tell me that Dennison got everything possible out of Tyrod this year

[artmalibu]

4 hours ago, Dadonkadonk said:

Watkins was injured. At one point they were on their 7th and 8th WR.

Dennison made TT and offense worse. All the complaints about TT not throwing over the middle or going through progressions were disproved. Dennison changed blocking scheme on number 1 rush offense in NFL. At the bye, players revolted and scheme had to be changed mid-season.

They both must go.

 

Sammy played in 8 games last year...

Woods played 13 last year and 12 this year to get 168 more yards

Flash played in 15 games last year but had 531 more yards this year.  

Clay played in 15 games last year  and 13 this year.

 

Hogan this year had about the same production in 9 games as he did with TT in 16 games

 

So saying TT didnt have receivers to throw to doesnt add up.  Everyone who leaves becomes more productive.  

 

Lastly and most note worthy TT took a pay cut to stay with the Bills.  If any other team thought he was the answer TT would have told the Bills to pound salt.    

Edited January 11, 2018 by artmalibu

[ndirish1978]

Pit of Misery ... Dilly Dilly

[LABILLBACKER]

4 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

 

3 years with regression

 

1st year OC with a QB that is regressing 

I want them both gone. Same day

[Lfod]

I'm trusting that the staff used what tools they had the best they could. They did exactly what they said they would. They made moves to win now and for future. They dumped players they didn't want and got the most for them they could.

 

The offensive side was the weak link but I am confident they were aware of it when they brought in a wide receiver and benched Tyrod. I am actually satisfied with how the season played out.

 

I don't know if Dennison is a problem but I give him the benefit of the doubt because he had a back up quarter back to run his offense all season.

 

 

 

 

[John from Riverside]

3 hours ago, yungmack said:

No one in their right mind thinks Tyrod is, or ever will be, a transcendent talent. But the offense was pretty darn good - not great, but good - until Dennison showed up.

This

 

TT was a cog in the wheel of a team that scored top 10 points the season before last......not THE reason....but A reason......

[Livinginthepast]

11 hours ago, KingRex said:

One of the arguments I find odd is by folks who indict TT as being worthless as a QB and then seem to think this excuses Denison from blame for O suckitude (to use a technical term).

 

I have even seen apologies for RD that claim TTs lack of ability handcuffed RD.

 

Actually if one assesses TT as clearly being a bum, rather than this getting RD off the hook, it provides even another reason for canning him.

 

Sure blame TT for not making the right choice in the Run/Pass Option play RD called, but the blame for failure here rather than falling solely on TT actually has to start with RD giving the RPO to a QB some folks say is clearly inadequate.

 

If you hate TT and think he should be shown the door, then also sign right up to also get rid of RD for not calling for 3 straight run play from 1st and goal at the one.

 

Add to this, RD participated in the stupid decision to start NP against the Chargers. This was a stupid move not because Taylor is great (he ain't) but because this was a stupid attempt at developing Peterman.  I agree that he was one of (if not the) most ready to play QBs in the draft.  However, ready to play as a #2  or disaster QB and ready to start are two different things.

 

When your starter QB gets knocked out of the game it often seems to have the impact of the D laying back a little and the back-up does well.  I  call this the AVP effect a several times we saw Jimbo go down and AVP would come in and look like Joe Montana.  Then the next week, the opponent would have a week to study film and install disguised coverages Jimbo would have shredded and AVP would be destroyed.

 

RD and McD did NP and the Bills no favor by announcing early in the week NP would start, the opponent got to practice and lick there lips waiting for this NFFL concensus 5th round talent to start (even Tom Brady sat on the bench and learned the pro game until a freakish lung collapse injury removed Bledsoe in his second year.

 

Not only was the dumb decision to throw NP to the wolves made, but it was done in a manner that maximized his chances to fail. I had (and still hope) he can become a good pro, but RD and McD panicked and may have butchered his self-confidence  (that being said n the big picture a ton of praise and the rest of the team- including RD and TT for leading thi squad to the playoffs.

 

I for one hope they can find a better cheaper QB than  TT.  However, the truth is there a shortage of QBs in this league and I easily think of worse cases than trying to do better next year with a better trained and managed TT.  Still I much prefer we bite the bullet and overpay Cousins or trade vets for Andy Dalton.

 

However ,  think both RD and TT share the blame for many of our failings and given the cruddy job of developing NP I think RD is most accountable for O faiulure.

I agree, to me this season its been BOTH TT and Rico that have been poor for all the reasons you have brought up. In addition, I think TT has just regressed as a QB. He made a lot of bad decisions this year (esp with taking bad sacks) that you didn't see in the previous 2 years. His passing game went backwards as well. Finally he seemed to lose that elusiveness he had in year 1 under Rex.  But Dennison really must be oblivious not to see this and adjust his offense. He never did right down to the last series in the last game. This shows me Dennison is either dumb or arrogant.  In any case I don't think TT is salvageable, we have seen his ceiling. Dennison is just not up to it either and needs to be gone. Bring in some young guy who can innovate this offense and use the people we have on the field!!

[Lfod]

31 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

I agree, to me this season its been BOTH TT and Rico that have been poor for all the reasons you have brought up. In addition, I think TT has just regressed as a QB. He made a lot of bad decisions this year (esp with taking bad sacks) that you didn't see in the previous 2 years. His passing game went backwards as well. Finally he seemed to lose that elusiveness he had in year 1 under Rex.  But Dennison really must be oblivious not to see this and adjust his offense. He never did right down to the last series in the last game. This shows me Dennison is either dumb or arrogant.  In any case I don't think TT is salvageable, we have seen his ceiling. Dennison is just not up to it either and needs to be gone. Bring in some young guy who can innovate this offense and use the people we have on the field!!

I think it comes down to trying to take a mobile back up QB and turning him into a pocket passer traditional starting QB. TT is a good guy and hard worker. I'd give him the chance to transition. He couldn't take the next step.

 

He couldn't play that scramble around game forever. Defense put spies on him then sold out to stop the run game. Tyrod could of and should have made them pay through the air and couldn't. 

 

I understand people say scheme around him. If I'm Coach I say you can't stick around forever on gimmicks. You eventually are gonna have to transition into what I want. I love the way you can scramble on a broken play and avoid pressure but this the team needs more. 

 

I think Tyrod got plenty of opportunities and they ran out. He still had a shot to win a playoff game and it was like I was looking at the Panthers game all over again and having this feeling we can't win with him. 

 

Instead of thinking people should game plan around Tyrod, I think he should have learned to run the game plan. I'm not stepping down for you. Your stepping up for me. 

Edited January 11, 2018 by Lfod

[MAJBobby]

19 hours ago, billsfan11 said:

Maybe so, but Dennison also didn’t build an offence towards TTs skill set like Roman did.

 

You can’t tell me that Dennison got everything possible out of Tyrod this year

 

To be honest i dont care. I want a QB. Dennison tried to put and or see if TT could be one. Same as Roman didnthe year he was fired when he expanded his Playbook. And TT failed. 

[ganesh]

On 1/11/2018 at 6:29 PM, 8-8 Forever? said:

tyrod limited what Dennison could do quite a bit in the passing game.   tt is too short... too many batted balls

But Dennison also put him in bad situations with bad play calling.   They simply did not have rhythm except for that 9 minute drive that resulted in the FG at 1st and Goal at the 1 yard line

[nuklz2594]

dennison gets a pass because tyrod is not the man

[PromoTheRobot]

 

On 11/01/2018 at 8:20 AM, bmur66 said:

To the Pit of Misery?

 

Dilly dilly!

Edited January 12, 2018 by PromoTheRobot

[BillsFan130]

50 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

To be honest i dont care. I want a QB. Dennison tried to put and or see if TT could be one. Same as Roman didnthe year he was fired when he expanded his Playbook. And TT failed. 

I hear your point and they definitely need to upgrade at QB.

 

If the Bills were tanking, I would understand trying to make TT a pocket passer to see what he’s got.

 

But when it’s in the playoffs, why wouldn’t you do everything in your power to put a game plan to TTs strengths?

 

Play the cards you are dealt with, and then make changes in the off season.