Anyone concerned about the wr talent?

[26CornerBlitz]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Where are they in % of targets to receivers?  I guess that is pretty close to last also.  

 

In this offense with the 2017 WR corps it wouldn't be a surprise. 

[Kirby Jackson]

25 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

Well yes and no. Woods left before Beane. I'd like to think if we got a Sammy offer when the offseason started, we would've kept Woods.

McDermott was here though and i thought m that we all agree he has a lot of power. With that being said I don’t want to be a hypocrite because I said that I would let Woods and Goodwin walk for those prices. I was wrong in hindsight.

[BillsfanAZ]

17 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I wouldn’t hate the Paul Richardson option. If we started Benjamin, Richardson and Zay in the slot with Thompson and Reilly behind them we would be a little more balanced.

I would agree with Richardson as well as Allen Robinson. He should be fullly recovered from his ACL by training camp. I think he can be signed with a nice incnetive contract without having to over spend. We all saw good things with Reilly in the preseason, lets hope that he has the same success in the regular season. If Peterman plays, I am sure he has good chemistry with Reilly from the scout team. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

14 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

The Bills are DFL in % of receptions by WRs.

 

To truly divine what that means, you need to compare those numbers to 2015 and 2016 as well. I bet you'd see a similar split.

 

[26CornerBlitz]

2 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

To truly divine what that means, you need to compare those numbers to 2015 and 2016 as well. I bet you'd see a similar split.

 

 

You'd lose!

 

 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

5 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

You'd lose!

 

 

 

 

I take it you don't have similar charts from your original post.

 

Or a chart from 2016.

 

But carry on.

 

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, joesixpack said:

 

I take it you don't have similar charts from your original post.

 

Or a chart from 2016.

 

But carry on.

 

 

If I did I would have posted them. But's it's easy enough to see from what I did post (2017 vs. 2015) that you are incorrect. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

If I did I would have posted them. But's it's easy enough to see from what I did post (2017 vs. 2015) that you are incorrect. 

 

How about 2016?

 

Hm?

 

[26CornerBlitz]

6 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

How about 2016?

 

Hm?

 

2016 numbers:

 

[P51]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

My ideal for our first 6 picks is to use no more than two of those on getting a QB and then go 2 OL and 2 DL.  

 

I think LB is just as important a need as OL and DL myself, was wondering your thoughts on the LB need for the Bills and potential options in the off season?

 

I can understand building from the lines back, makes sense, as does your ideal situation. I think a LB that can start and cover should be in that mix as well, if not two some how.  

[Big Gun]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Aren’t you assuming that they get a QB? I am.

 

So your strategy, and many others on here, is avoid all evaluations of the receiver talent now. Pretend that it doesn’t count because of the QB. Give a rookie QB these questionable weapons to struggle with and then upgrade them after? That makes no sense.

 

Additionally, they have countless practices, position specific coaches and like 22 different angles of game footage. You don’t think that they are qualified to evaluate those guys?!? Come on people you can’t be that simple. 

 

If you say “the group is fine” that’s okay. I don’t believe that it is but everyone has an opinion. If you say “they aren’t capable of evaluating them” that’s just not true.

These guys are "good enough" and you can "get to the playoffs" with these guys. Just need a better than average defense and if they are surrounded by better players, IMO you can win with these guys. 

 

Seems as though I have heard something like that before, hmmmmm...... 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

8 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

2016 numbers:

 

 

So unless my math is incorrect, 146/286 passes went to wr, for a total of 51% last season. Hm again. Still no bueno.

 

 

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, joesixpack said:

So unless my math is incorrect, 146/286 passes went to wr, for a total of 51% last season. Hm again. Still no bueno.

 

Not a surprise given who they were trotting out there at WR with all of the injuries at the position in 2016.  Walt Powell, Justin Hunter, etc with Goodwin as the #1 for many games. 

[GunnerBill]

18 minutes ago, P51 said:

 

I think LB is just as important a need as OL and DL myself, was wondering your thoughts on the LB need for the Bills and potential options in the off season?

 

I can understand building from the lines back, makes sense, as does your ideal situation. I think a LB that can start and cover should be in that mix as well, if not two some how.  

 

I haven't got much into linebackers at all yet.  I have some names on my list to come back to but I have seen enough of Roquan Smith to say I absolutely love him.  I'm not mad keen on spending one of our 1st round picks on a linebacker if I am honest but I'd find it hard to hate picking Smith if he comes out.  

[buffalobloodfloridahome]

Honestly WR is at the bottom of my list right now. New offensive coordinator is at the top Draft a Rookie QB with our first or move up. Then build up the oline and dline to the linebackers. Maybe take a flier on a wr in the late rounds who nobody has heard of from a D2 school.

[P51]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Yep, that scares me too. Those guys were evaluated before they hit FA or were traded.

I have real concerns about the defensive front 7. How many guys there will be starting next year? Hughes, Milano, maybe Shaq? Maybe Kyle? 

 

Re: The Front 7 - I have huge concerns about them myself, Hughes IMO along with Glenn are highly likely to be traded in the off season, Shaq??? He seems more like a rotational guy for McDefense (I do think he's better suited for RE myself), Kyle I think retires but  they might be able to convince to stay 1 more year and is at best a rotational guy, with Washington going into next year, Yarbrough and Davis are rotational depth guys, Alexander should be depth at best, Brown is a gone IMO, and Humber again is really a back up/spot starter. 

 

Crystal Ball Starters - DE - Shaq and Hughes/rookie/FA, DT - Rookie and FA, WLB - Milano/Humber/Rookie, ILB - Rookie, SLB - Rookie/FA/Lacey

 

Backups - DE - Yarbrough and Davis/Rookie, DT - Washington/coleman/thorton, Killiams/coleman/thorton/rookie, WLB - Milano/Humber/Rookie, ILB - Vallejo/FA/Rookie, SLB - Alexander/Lacey

 

This draft is deep at ILB and I think they will find one at this point to start going into next year, but along with QB and OL, the front 7 in general needs to be addressed in the offseason if not as badly, almost as badly QB and OL.

[Kirby Jackson]

35 minutes ago, PeterGriffin said:

These guys are "good enough" and you can "get to the playoffs" with these guys. Just need a better than average defense and if they are surrounded by better players, IMO you can win with these guys. 

 

Seems as though I have heard something like that before, hmmmmm...... 

Fair enough, would you re-sign Matthews?

Edited December 6, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[Big Gun]

6 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Fair enough, would you re-sign Matthews?

Yes, who out there is a better option?

[BringBackOrton]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

McDermott was here though and i thought m that we all agree he has a lot of power. With that being said I don’t want to be a hypocrite because I said that I would let Woods and Goodwin walk for those prices. I was wrong in hindsight.

I do agree with that.

 

However, they may have thought, "We want to move Watkins, but we may not, so I don't want to overpay Woods and be stuck with both."  And then they got a Watkins offer that they wanted to jump at.  Hindsight would be 20-20.

[Kirby Jackson]

5 minutes ago, PeterGriffin said:

 Yes, who out there is a better option?

I listed the group in the first post.  Assuming that he is looking at $6M+ (Which is really conservative IMO) there are a few guys that I’d rather have in that range. Richardson would be on top of that list and probably cost less than Matthews.  The Bills need speed.

5 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

I do agree with that.

 

However, they may have thought, "We want to move Watkins, but we may not, so I don't want to overpay Woods and be stuck with both."  And then they got a Watkins offer that they wanted to jump at.  Hindsight would be 20-20.

Yeah and I don’t want to be a hypocrite. I said that I wouldn’t sign Woods or Goodwin at that price. I’m not going to pretend now that I would have and have no room to criticize decisions that I agreed with. 

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I listed the group in the first post.  Assuming that he is looking at $6M+ (Which is really conservative IMO) there are a few guys that I’d rather have in that range. Richardson would be on top of that list and probably cost less than Matthews.  The Bills need speed.

Yeah and I don’t want to be a hypocrite. I said that I wouldn’t sign Woods or Goodwin at that price. I’m not going to pretend now that I would have and have no room to criticize decisions that I agreed with. 

I get you're trying to be fair, but you weren't operating with all the info.  In a vacuum, you may not have wanted Woods at that price.  Knowing Watkins was on the block and we were gonna take the first good deal we got is another story.

[Kirby Jackson]

13 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

I get you're trying to be fair, but you weren't operating with all the info.  In a vacuum, you may not have wanted Woods at that price.  Knowing Watkins was on the block and we were gonna take the first good deal we got is another story.

That’s fair

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

Quote

  1 hour ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

The Bills are DFL in % of receptions by WRs.

Where are they in % of targets to receivers?  I guess that is pretty close to last also.  

Is CP finally seeing the light?   Or is he just blaming the WR's?  

 

[Wayne Arnold]

I'm probably in the minority but I really like our receiver unit when healthy.

 

Especially if they're able to re-sign Matthews.

 

There are much bigger holes in this roster.

[BuffaloHokie13]

2 hours ago, joesixpack said:

So unless my math is incorrect, 146/286 passes went to wr, for a total of 51% last season. Hm again. Still no bueno.

[Bing Bong]

1 minute ago, Wayne Arnold said:

I'm probably in the minority but I really like our receiver unit when healthy.

 

Especially if they're able to re-sign Matthews.

 

There are much bigger holes in this roster.

I'd like insurance against trotting out the unit we did on Sunday. We don't stand a chance against the Pats any season no matter how our defense plays if their corners are as good as they are matched up against the likes of Deonte Thompson. Gilmore and Butler can each neutralize true #1 receivers, any receiver without that full skill set of a primary target is going to struggle.

 

The Pats always find a way to get lock down corners, Butler was a helluva draft pick.

[thebandit27]

32 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

I'd like insurance against trotting out the unit we did on Sunday. We don't stand a chance against the Pats any season no matter how our defense plays if their corners are as good as they are matched up against the likes of Deonte Thompson. Gilmore and Butler can each neutralize true #1 receivers, any receiver without that full skill set of a primary target is going to struggle.

 

The Pats always find a way to get lock down corners, Butler was a helluva draft pick.

 

Butler was an undrafted FA

[berg1029]

On 12/5/2017 at 8:04 AM, Kirby Jackson said:

While the Bills work to remake this roster we rarely see people talk about it. Before anyone says, you can’t do anything with TT, Marquise Goodwin has more yards this year than Matthews, Jones and Benjamin combined for the Bills. He played primarily with Hoyer and Beathard. Romo talked about it during the game on Sunday; the guys don’t get open. As we bring in a rookie QB it would be wise to give him weapons.

 

Personally I think Matthews stinks, he’s never open and is a limited athlete. Benjamin is a good, not great WR. Zay has been a big disappointment to me because I had high expectations. He just always seems to be off balance. I like Thompson and think that he fills a role. The Bills still need a #1/2 depending on how you define Benjamin. 

 

Would you rather sign someone like Davante Adams, Jarvis Landry, Allen Robinson, Terrelle Pryor, Paul Richardson or Donte Moncrief or draft a guy in the first couple of rounds? 

 

I'm not 100% sure the wide receiver talent is something to worry about at this point.  Last year (when he had watkins, woods, and goodwin), if someone asked me about the quality of receivers that we have, I would have responded that they were middle of the road.  Well, these guys have departed and are all having more success elsewhere than they did here. 

 

The QB talent here, imo, prevents being able to tell whether our current set of receivers are up to the task or not (much like assessing the last set of receivers was difficult).  With that being said, I agree about Matthews.  He is a possession receiver that just doesn't seem to be there/open for those crucial 3rd down catches to advance the chains.  The Eagles certainly don't appear to be missing him. The other three are harder to assess because of faulty QBing. 

 

Imo, go for a cheaper vet, but someone that can stretch the field.  Someone like a Taylor Gabriel from the Falcons.  Having too many possession receivers like Benjamin will let the defense play close to the line. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, Wayne Arnold said:

I'm probably in the minority but I really like our receiver unit when healthy.

 

Especially if they're able to re-sign Matthews.

 

There are much bigger holes in this roster.

we exist 

 

and Yes there are. 

[Boatdrinks]

4 hours ago, jmc12290 said:

I get you're trying to be fair, but you weren't operating with all the info.  In a vacuum, you may not have wanted Woods at that price.  Knowing Watkins was on the block and we were gonna take the first good deal we got is another story.

The fail was deciding to move Watkins

[dave mcbride]

3 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

The fail was deciding to move Watkins

I watched a bit of the Rams-AZ game on Sunday. Watkins wasn't targeted all that much and the Rams won easily, but the thing I saw from him is a guy who literally explodes out of breaks with the sharpest of cuts. It creates so much separation, even when the DB is an equally explosive player like Patrick Peterson (who was covering him). No one on the Bills can do that. It's really evident when you watch Watkins. He's a really, really strong and explosive player. 

[Bing Bong]

5 hours ago, PeterGriffin said:

These guys are "good enough" and you can "get to the playoffs" with these guys. Just need a better than average defense and if they are surrounded by better players, IMO you can win with these guys. 

 

Seems as though I have heard something like that before, hmmmmm...... 

Any position group can be "good enough" if positions around it are positions of strength. You need a few strengths to run an offense, our offense is batting .000 for all groups, not to mention the coordinator.

[Boatdrinks]

7 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I watched a bit of the Rams-AZ game on Sunday. Watkins wasn't targeted all that much and the Rams won easily, but the thing I saw from him is a guy who literally explodes out of breaks with the sharpest of cuts. It creates so much separation, even when the DB is an equally explosive player like Patrick Peterson (who was covering him). No one on the Bills can do that. It's really evident when you watch Watkins. He's a really, really strong and explosive player. 

I concur . I've watched every Rams game since the trade, sometimes on replay. The Rams offense is a great design and SW runs those route concepts as well as one could ask for. I think he should be getting more targets from the amount of times he is open, but that's more on Goff than anything else. Sometimes he's even managed to overthrow SW, something Watkins told Ttyrod he couldn't do. Goff's touch on the deep routes is not as good as Taylor's , but he does everything else much better. Watkins was the best route runner I've seen on the Bills in some time and he'll be tough to replace. So many Bills fans just look at box scores and form opinions, but they clearly aren't watching the Rams offense. 

[Bing Bong]

2 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

I concur . I've watched every Rams game since the trade, sometimes on replay. The Rams offense is a great design and SW runs those route concepts as well as one could ask for. I think he should be getting more targets from the amount of times he is open, but that's more on Goff than anything else. Sometimes he's even managed to overthrow SW, something Watkins told Ttyrod he couldn't do. Goff's touch on the deep routes is not as good as Taylor's , but he does everything else much better. Watkins was the best route runner I've seen on the Bills in some time and he'll be tough to replace. So many Bills fans just look at box scores and form opinions, but they clearly aren't watching the Rams offense. 

You can just see the obvious improvement in a guy like Watkins if you watch the receivers for a series instead of ball watching. Most every team's got at least one guy that can get open almost right away.

 

Seems like we have 3 of the exact type of slot receiver; big body possession guys lumbering through routes. I don't know a ton about the upside this type provides but seems like I see many teams without that sort of guy at all. Their slot is a water bug type. And what makes KB different from these guys? He's just more accustomed to lining up outside?

 

Honestly don't know much about the various receiver roles, just thought all season we had a strange group on paper, and they certainly look that way to the eye test.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

5 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Fair enough, would you re-sign Matthews?

 

 

 

....may have to be incentive laden deal bbased on his sketchy health prognosis......if I remember correctly, Buffalo got him because he was buried at #3 or #4 on Eagles depth chart......if that is correct and you add in 2017, I can't see GM's league wide in line with BIG checkbooks...but then again, crazy money is becoming the norm......

[Billzgobowlin]

8 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Aren’t you assuming that they get a QB? I am.

 

So your strategy, and many others on here, is avoid all evaluations of the receiver talent now. Pretend that it doesn’t count because of the QB. Give a rookie QB these questionable weapons to struggle with and then upgrade them after? That makes no sense.

 

Additionally, they have countless practices, position specific coaches and like 22 different angles of game footage. You don’t think that they are qualified to evaluate those guys?!? Come on people you can’t be that simple. 

 

If you say “the group is fine” that’s okay. I don’t believe that it is but everyone has an opinion. If you say “they aren’t capable of evaluating them” that’s just not true.

Nothing else matters until they have someone capable of hitting an open man in stride.  If our receivers are healthy they would be very solid but that is a big IF.  

[Kirby Jackson]

39 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

 

....may have to be incentive laden deal bbased on his sketchy health prognosis......if I remember correctly, Buffalo got him because he was buried at #3 or #4 on Eagles depth chart......if that is correct and you add in 2017, I can't see GM's league wide in line with BIG checkbooks...but then again, crazy money is becoming the norm......

He was their #4 and heading to FA. I’d expect him to still get $6M+ (Woods got like $8M). I wouldn’t do it.

33 minutes ago, Billzgobowlin said:

Nothing else matters until they have someone capable of hitting an open man in stride.  If our receivers are healthy they would be very solid but that is a big IF.  

So you believe that this group is good enough? That’s where we disagree.

[djp14150]

They need a speed target.  This player doesn't have to be a #1 receiver.

Bejamin and Jones are perfectly fine for a 3WR set.  They also have Clay at TE.

[ColoradoBills]

5 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

He was their #4 and heading to FA. I’d expect him to still get $6M+ (Woods got like $8M). I wouldn’t do it.

 

5 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

So you believe that this group is good enough? That’s where we disagree.

 

No, but I'm in the camp that we spend our best resources on QB and the trenches.

[BringBackOrton]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

He was their #4 and heading to FA. I’d expect him to still get $6M+ (Woods got like $8M). I wouldn’t do it.

So you believe that this group is good enough? That’s where we disagree.

Who do you really think we need to add though?

 

Give a player comp.  Deonte is in the speed role.  KB is our big body #1.  Zay can be in the slot and the boundary.  Holmes as a #4 filling in for KB. Don't forget we still have Clay and O'Leary to work in.

 

What round do you think we need to look for WR?  3 and 4 maybe? 

 

We have varying degrees of good and solid WR's but no one great.  McD isn't gonna turn around and spend a high pick on a WR after trading Sammy, and I don't think FA is going to warrant the kind of player you're looking for. Looking over the list of UFA's, no one jumps at me.