Anybody miss Whaley yet?

[VADC Bills]

His drafts and cap mismanagement speak for themselves, but....

 

From Marrone to Rex to McDermott, I still find it baffling our GM in title couldn't have primary say in who our HC should have been.

4 years, 3 coaches...smh

I agree. I think the main reason we didn't make the playoffs were due to coaching errors. Rex would give away 2 games a year. I don't blame Whaley for that.

We are a team that needed 2-3 more wins a season. I think the new regime is taking the long path to gaining those 2-3 more victories. I think they are going about things wrong. I hope I am wrong and they do deserve a chance.

[Magox]

That's true. I am 36; that is true too. It's not relevant either but it's true.

I do? I didn't know those were the rules? FWIW, I loved the way that they manipulated the draft and the talent that they acquired early. I'm not sure, outside of Peterman, that the mid to late rounds were good. In general I think that they did poorly in FA. Hyde can play but in general the guys that were added are not good. Obviously it's early but so far they have done a bad job assembling the roster. They are in a rebuilding period and have the 3rd oldest team in football. That's stupid.

 

Honest question for those that are happy, what that has been done has impressed you? What gives you so much confidence?the overwhelming majority of the moves have been headscratching at best.

It's not a matter of me approving or disapproving their decisions, i dont know how they will turn out and neither do you, so for you to proclaim that Whaley is a better accumulator of talent when Beane hasn't even had a single draft is silly. There is no justifying your statement, zero, zilch.

 

You can doubt their decisions, believe them to be god awful, what have you but you cannot rationally make the proclamation that you did.

Edited September 4, 2017 by Magox

[stinky finger]

 

Yes I am. The municipality i work for is off tomorrow and friday. Three day week then another three day weekend. Then I can watch the Bills lose to the Jesters.

enjoy

 

don't forget, you have a book report due.

[JoeF]

Every time a GM or a coach has been fired since Wade Phillips and John Butler it has meant that the Bills failed to produce a winner and missed the playoffs. I miss Whaley because I hoped he would be the GM to deliver a playoff birth. It didn't happen. I will miss Brandon Beane and Sean McDermott if they are fired for not producing a winner. That being said -- I think the Pegulas plan to give both McDermott and Beane a 5 year runway...and plan to tune us all out until about year 3....

[WildBills]

enjoy

 

don't forget, you have a book report due.

 

15 years ago maybe.

[Kirby Jackson]

It's not a matter of me approving or disapproving their decisions, i dont know how they will turn out and neither do you, so for you to proclaim that Whaley is a better accumulator of talent when Beane hasn't even had a single draft is silly. There is no justifying your statement, zero, zilch.

 

You can doubt their decisions, believe them to be god awful, what have you but you cannot rationally make the proclamation that you did.

At the exact same time you can't say it's untrue. If you want to play the "we do t know anything until we see it happen" card you can. I will bet though that the results are inferior to where they were a year ago. They will have better coaching with McDermott but I will be surprised if they win more games. IMO, that means that they have less talent. Do you disagree?

[Magox]

At the exact same time you can't say it's untrue. If you want to play the "we do t know anything until we see it happen" card you can. I will bet though that the results are inferior to where they were a year ago. They will have better coaching with McDermott but I will be surprised if they win more games. IMO, that means that they have less talent. Do you disagree?

Kirby, they have traded alot of players for future picks. The reasonable thing to do is wait to see how the draft picks pan out and a couple off seasons of building the team around that nucleus. Make no bones about it, the engine that they envision that will power this organization will be through the draft. And after those picks are made then you'll see more activity in FA. They are going to have lots of cap room in the coming years

[Scott7975]

No, because ultimately you need to win games in the NFL. If the Bills go 5-11, 4-12, 6-10, then this current GM-coach combo get shown the door.

I disagree with that. If they go 4-12 or whatever they will get some good draft picks. They may actually finally get us a franchise QB and do a good job building the roster. Nobody knows yet. If they fook up the draft and then proceed to have another crap season then yeah they should be purged like the roster just was.

 

This staff isn't trying to get us another 8-8 crap season. They aren't even trying to get us to barely a wild card one and done. They are trying to build a team that can compete for many years to come. The purge is necessary to that. Although I do agree they are doing it bass ackwards. I am at least willing to give them a few years to see what they do and not just one off season of dumping low grade players.

Edited September 4, 2017 by Scott7975

[stinky finger]

 

15 years ago maybe.

I hated book reports

[JoeF]

At the exact same time you can't say it's untrue. If you want to play the "we do t know anything until we see it happen" card you can. I will bet though that the results are inferior to where they were a year ago. They will have better coaching with McDermott but I will be surprised if they win more games. IMO, that means that they have less talent. Do you disagree?

There is less talent at this time this year than last. I could argue that almost every position group has been downgraded but K and P. Some of its due to age (DL); some of its due to scheme changes (OL), wrong fit talent (QB)...but I agree we will be better coached.

 

Here is where I diverge -- there is no way Whaley could have been retained. He was fired the day of the "I was not privy" press conference. The owner should have taken that hit -- but Whaley ended up looking powerless at best, foolish at worst. The PR part of the job may not be important to some but it is to Kim Pegula. There is no way she wanted the franchise represented that way.

 

I think the Bills did the right thing by moving on from Whaley after the draft. Beane could not have put together the staff he has until after the draft. Beane has taken the philosophy of correct it all now and bottom out--McDermott has embraced that because he wants a team of personalities that fit his. The talent ebb is a natural progression of remaking a team largely in one year. In terms of the downgrade in talent-- there are a bunch of things we will never know-- was Sammy a malcontent/unsignable WR with a potential chronic injury; had Darby regressed and lost confidence; did Ragland's knee impact questionable mobility even more; is JWill a fumbler who didn't show the work ethic to improve...I don't know.....

[Max Fischer]

There is less talent at this time this year than last. I could argue that almost every position group has been downgraded but K and P. Some of its due to age (DL); some of its due to scheme changes (OL), wrong fit talent (QB)...but I agree we will be better coached.

 

Here is where I diverge -- there is no way Whaley could have been retained. He was fired the day of the "I was not privy" press conference. The owner should have taken that hit -- but Whaley ended up looking powerless at best, foolish at worst. The PR part of the job may not be important to some but it is to Kim Pegula. There is no way she wanted the franchise represented that way.

 

I think the Bills did the right thing by moving on from Whaley after the draft. Beane could not have put together the staff he has until after the draft. Beane has taken the philosophy of correct it all now and bottom out--McDermott has embraced that because he wants a team of personalities that fit his. The talent ebb is a natural progression of remaking a team largely in one year. In terms of the downgrade in talent-- there are a bunch of things we will never know-- was Sammy a malcontent/unsignable WR with a potential chronic injury; had Darby regressed and lost confidence; did Ragland's knee impact questionable mobility even more; is JWill a fumbler who didn't show the work ethic to improve...I don't know.....

+1

[Yav]

His drafts and cap mismanagement speak for themselves, but....

 

From Marrone to Rex to McDermott, I still find it baffling our GM in title couldn't have primary say in who our HC should have been.

4 years, 3 coaches...smh

I can agree that cap management was bad but you can't put any of the coaching hires on him.

 

Marrone was a Brandon, Nix hire and Rex & McD were Pegulla hires.

 

We will never know what this team would have done had he hired the coach.

 

I'm not saying he should have stayed, rather a GM and coach need to be on the same page.

[Chilly]

Kirby, they have traded alot of players for future picks. The reasonable thing to do is wait to see how the draft picks pan out and a couple off seasons of building the team around that nucleus. Make no bones about it, the engine that they envision that will power this organization will be through the draft. And after those picks are made then you'll see more activity in FA. They are going to have lots of cap room in the coming years

 

Yes, they have lots of draft equity, but the hit rate on most of those picks is low. They traded away good talent for picks that, at most, have a 50% success rate on average across the board.

 

If they were trading around people that wouldn't fit on the team in 2-3 years (like Shady), that's one thing. I don't see how trading away a guy like Sammy for a pick that even has a 50/50 shot of making the NFL is a good move, regardless of how it ends up working out.

[Billsguy]

No, not even a little bit.

Whaley was a proven failure. No, he is not missed!

 

The new regime is on their way to proving it, but we won't know for 2-3 years.

 

After a 3-13 season they may be off to a good start though.

 

Embrace the TANK !!!!

[Kirby Jackson]

Kirby, they have traded alot of players for future picks. The reasonable thing to do is wait to see how the draft picks pan out and a couple off seasons of building the team around that nucleus. Make no bones about it, the engine that they envision that will power this organization will be through the draft. And after those picks are made then you'll see more activity in FA. They are going to have lots of cap room in the coming years

...and I'm all for a rebuild. I just don't think in a rebuild you keep players like Tolbert and dispense Jonathan Williams. You don't jettison guys that are in their low 20's for guys in their low 30's. That's what is so stupid. I'm not going to call it confusing or puzzling. It's stupid. If the Bills were clearing out high priced vets to try young guys while taking their lumps I could get behind it. They kept guys like Ducasse, Philly Brown (since released) and Holmes while letting promising young players like Reilly and Williams go. That's not how you rebuild. You don't assemble the 3rd oldest roster in the league and "go from there." Edited September 4, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[Rico]

...and I'm all for a rebuild. I just don't think in a rebuild you keep players like Tolbert and dispense Jonathan Williams. You don't jettison guys that are in their low 29's for guys in their low 30's. That's what is so stupid. I'm not going to call it confusing or puzzling. It's stupid. If the Bills were clearing out high priced vets to try young guys while taking their lumps I could get behind it. They kept guys like Ducasse, Philly Brown (since released) and Holmes while letting promising young players like Reilly and Williams go. That's not how you rebuild. You don't assemble the 3rd oldest roster in the league and "go from there."

If the guys in the low 20's (like JWill) aren't very good, it really doesn't matter.

[Kirby Jackson]

If the guys in the low 20's (like JWill) aren't very good, it really doesn't matter.

Darby, Sammy, Seymour...we know your feelings on the previous regime but that doesn't make it right either. Try to explain, in a rebuild, why you'd assemble the 3rd oldest roster in football? Edited September 4, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[Magox]

...and I'm all for a rebuild. I just don't think in a rebuild you keep players like Tolbert and dispense Jonathan Williams. You don't jettison guys that are in their low 20's for guys in their low 30's. That's what is so stupid. I'm not going to call it confusing or puzzling. It's stupid. If the Bills were clearing out high priced vets to try young guys while taking their lumps I could get behind it. They kept guys like Ducasse, Philly Brown (since released) and Holmes while letting promising young players like Reilly and Williams go. That's not how you rebuild. You don't assemble the 3rd oldest roster in the league and "go from there."

That's a separate argument and a legitimate gripe to have even though I'm not so sure I agree, but there is no way anyone can reasonably say at this stage if Beane is going to be good at accumulating talent

[JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS]

 

I agree changing D schemes hurt Whaley, but he was a weak drafter, poor at cap management, did not find franchise QB (in fact put in little effort as he stuck with his guy EJ), traded up far too often (1,1,2,4,4,4 for Watkins & Ragland is ridiculous). Whaley was a good pro scout, especially on the D side of the ball, but was overmatched as a GM.

All you have to do is watch the footage of him pitching EJ to realize just how out of his depth he was. Dude literally fell in love with EJ and just couldn't quit him. He ruined the offense trying to give EJ a chance, and continued to push EJ long after it was clear EJ couldn't perform.

[Kirby Jackson]

That's a separate argument and a legitimate gripe to have even though I'm not so sure I agree, but there is no way anyone can reasonably say at this stage if Beane is going to be good at accumulating talent

There's no way to reasonably argue that he's good at it either. We can only judge based on the decisions that he's made. So far, he's been wrong more than right IMO.

[Magox]

 

Yes, they have lots of draft equity, but the hit rate on most of those picks is low. They traded away good talent for picks that, at most, have a 50% success rate on average across the board.

 

If they were trading around people that wouldn't fit on the team in 2-3 years (like Shady), that's one thing. I don't see how trading away a guy like Sammy for a pick that even has a 50/50 shot of making the NFL is a good move, regardless of how it ends up working out.

Again, that is a separate argument than the one we were having, even though I do believe the Sammy trade as a fan was a hard one to take but from a cost vs benefit business decision it was well within bounds

[NewMexBills]

I Dont miss DW, but will miss JW

[Magox]

There's no way to reasonably argue that he's good at it either. We can only judge based on the decisions that he's made. So far, he's been wrong more than right IMO.

That's my point, there is no way to know if Beane will end up being good at accumulating talent until this plays out more.

[KRT88]

At least BB and SM are in the same page. Doug Whaley was with either of his coaches.

[BuffaloFan68]

As of today's release of J Will - I miss Whaley. There I said it. At least he wouldn't keep Vlad turnstile Ducasse and get rid of players like Rielly & J Will.

Good thing I'm not paying for the NFL package this year - waste of time with the Bills.

[JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS]

All you have to do is watch the footage of him pitching EJ to realize just how out of his depth he was. Dude literally fell in love with EJ and just couldn't quit him. He ruined the offense trying to give EJ a chance, and continued to push EJ long after it was clear EJ couldn't perform.

https://youtu.be/HI2TFbCiI08

 

The "IT factor" ... wow.

[Kirby Jackson]

That's my point, there is no way to know if Beane will end up being good at accumulating talent until this plays out more.

I don't disagree. At the same time if you trade Paul George for Victor Oladipo and Sabonis we don't know of it will work out. We don't have the benefit of hindsight. At the same time it looked like an awful decision as soon as it was made. Beane has multiple decisions like that so far. Edited September 4, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[BuffaloFan68]

A friend of mine is a huge Jets fan and he said, "the Bills Suck", and my only viable reply was, "you're just jealous because we're better at sucking than your jets".

If we loose to the Jets week 1 - I may not watch another NFL game all year - Thanks alot McD & Beane. You had a plan but then got too cute for yourselves. NEXT!

[liverpoolkev]

No, not even a little bit.

Well you should ...... because this group don't have a clue

I disagree with that. If they go 4-12 or whatever they will get some good draft picks. They may actually finally get us a franchise QB and do a good job building the roster. Nobody knows yet. If they fook up the draft and then proceed to have another crap season then yeah they should be purged like the roster just was.

 

This staff isn't trying to get us another 8-8 crap season. They aren't even trying to get us to barely a wild card one and done. They are trying to build a team that can compete for many years to come. The purge is necessary to that. Although I do agree they are doing it bass ackwards. I am at least willing to give them a few years to see what they do and not just one off season of dumping low grade players.

THAT WOULD MAKE SENSE IF THEY DIDNT GET RID OF YOUNG TALENT AND REPLACE IT WITH OLDER PLAYERS WHO ARE NOT AS TALENTED . TOLBERT BELONG ON NO ONES ROSTER HE IS ONLY HERE BECAUSE THE COACH AND HIS WIFE ARE BUDDIES. YOU GET RID OF J. WILLIAMS , WHO IS YOUNGER AND CHEAPER FOR HIM..

[Rico]

Darby, Sammy, Seymour...we know your feelings on the previous regime but that doesn't make it either. Try to explain, in a rebuild, why you'd assemble the 3rd oldest roster in football?

I don't know, and I really don't care, right now anyways at this stage. It could be that this year is all about installing their systems + changing the culture & they want to be somewhat competitive in the process. They've determined who isn't a good fit for what they want to do and moved them out, getting value for them while they can. FWIW, I would think that next year's roster will be considerably younger with their structure in place & players like Tolbert gone.

 

Year 1 is a wash to me anyways, I will be happy with improvement from Week 1 to Week 17.

[Magox]

I don't disagree. At the same time of you trade Paul George for Victor Oladipo and Sabonis we don't know of it will work out. We don't have the benefit of hindsight. At the same time it looked like an awful decision as soon as it was made. Beane has multiple decisions like that so far.

The Sammy trade was arguably a justifiable trade. We've already discussed this, you and others didn't like it but there was plenty of rationale for pulling the trigger on it. The Darby for Matthews and a third was in my view a good trade. Ragland for a 4th, we will see over the next couple years how that turns out.

 

Seymour for Klay and a 7th is a wash. Seymour was expected to compete for significant playing time and he disappointed in camp and they made the decision that he was a JAG and expendable.

 

Jwilliams had a 3.5 ypc average while shady and gillislee were ripping it up. Sure, he looked a little quicker this year and I was surprised by the cut, but let's be honest, he wasn't anything special. Maybe they didn't like other aspects of his game, maybe they thought Banyard wasn't that much of a drop off from a running aspect but a much better receiver from the backfield. Either way, los8ng Jwill is not nearly as consequential as the typical overreaction we've seen from the board.

 

Next year's decisions will define this regime. That's when we will have a clearer picture of their ability to properly evaluate talent

[C.Biscuit97]

Whaley would put together a roster that's just good enough to be mediocre. 6-9 wins. The transition has been tough, but there's hope for the future under McBeane.

Whaley put together a team that was good enough to win 9 games with Orton and EJ. They were a franchise qb from being a SB contender. The Bills had a top 10 roster in terms of talent.

 

And review his busts:

 

EJ - backup on a SB contender

Woods - paid a lot of money

Kiko - paid a lot of money and got us Shady, one of the best rbs in the NFL

Darby - the Eagles #1 cb who they badly wanted

Sammy - the Rams couldn't make that deal fast enough

Dustin Hopkins - one of the ks in the league

 

Whaley had his faults, trading up the draft and press conferences, but don't pretend like this was some terrible team.

 

These new guys needed to pull out their richards and just create holes there didn't need to be. And we the fans will have to suffer through more playoff less years when they could have just used resources to add to the roster and get a qb. So stupid.

[JTO]

Nope, he was a procrastinator when it came to QBs. At least Beane is thinking outside the box.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just adding a little fuel to the fire here. After the moves that have been made recently is there anyone out there that misses DW yet? Been so many head scratcher moves lately I don't know how to feel about the new regime anymore. One day I love em the next I hate em. At least with Whaley we knew he wasn't gonna blindside us and his priority was to win now.

 

We have some data on how some of Whaley's moves played out: some good, some bad, some neutral.

 

I will wait to have data on how Mr Bean's moves turn out. If JW is signed by another team and tears it up for them, while our backup RBs look like crap, then Watkins has a huge year while our receiving corps struggles, he's not going to look too smart. But I will still wait to reserve judgement based upon how this year's draft picks actually perform etc.

 

I personally felt Whaley needed to go in favor of bringing in a coach/GM pair who have no questions about whether they get along and get rid of this crap responsibility deflection (it was Whaley's move. no, no he doesn't get credit, that's Rex's guy.

Edited September 4, 2017 by Hapless Bills Fan

[NewMexBills]

Sean McDermott + Brandon Beane makes

Sean Bean !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The bills are gonna die.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Do not miss Whaley, but McDermott and Beane are not impressive.

[QB Bills]

Whaley put together a team that was good enough to win 9 games with Orton and EJ. They were a franchise qb from being a SB contender. The Bills had a top 10 roster in terms of talent.

 

And review his busts:

 

EJ - backup on a SB contender

Woods - paid a lot of money

Kiko - paid a lot of money and got us Shady, one of the best rbs in the NFL

Darby - the Eagles #1 cb who they badly wanted

Sammy - the Rams couldn't make that deal fast enough

Dustin Hopkins - one of the ks in the league

 

Whaley had his faults, trading up the draft and press conferences, but don't pretend like this was some terrible team.

 

These new guys needed to pull out their richards and just create holes there didn't need to be. And we the fans will have to suffer through more playoff less years when they could have just used resources to add to the roster and get a qb. So stupid.

Yup, yup and yup.

 

Is it me or has there been an influx of...how do I put this nicely...not-so-intelligent fans on this board ever since the Bills shut down their official forum?

 

How anyone is defending what's happened at OBD over the last few months is beyond me.

[BadLandsMeanie]

Yup, yup and yup.

 

Is it me or has there been an influx of...how do I put this nicely...not-so-intelligent fans on this board ever since the Bills shut down their official forum?

 

How anyone is defending what's happened at OBD over the last few months is beyond me.

Yeah Ima stupid one too I reckon.

 

You just wait some team gonna snap up that Douglas Whaley quicker than a bee to honey.

 

Now I myself am thinkin' he were the stupidest GM at drafting and at getting along with people in the whole league. And there was that thing folks noticed about how he couldn't talk. You know, couldn't string his words together like a normal person. All of the mistake making and draft busting and the babbling and that there GIANT contract for Marcel who ain't the most serious young man, why that stuff will just plumb fool a simple bumpkin like me into thinking he just ain't very good.

 

But now we gonna get to see how good he is when the other teams swoop down to have Douglas Whaley run things, and then you can rightly tell me you told me so.

[reddogblitz]

Thats the problem though - 10 or 11 wins MAYBE with his roster. Would you rather be like the Bengals, who cant win a playoff game to save their lives? Or would you rather build the right way and win some games in January?

I would rather he the Bengals because they at least make the playoffs. Where does a Bills fan get off sticking their nose up at a team that has made the playoffs 5 years in a row?

[reddogblitz]

I agree changing D schemes hurt Whaley, but he was a weak drafter, poor at cap management, did not find franchise QB (in fact put in little effort as he stuck with his guy EJ), traded up far too often (1,1,2,4,4,4 for Watkins & Ragland is ridiculous). Whaley was a good pro scout, especially on the D side of the ball, but was overmatched as a GM.

I'm going to have to disagree on the above.

 

How was he stuck on his guy, EJ? After EJ he brought in Kyle Orton. The following year Tyrod Taylor. The next year he drafted Cardale, and last year Peterman.

 

He put in a lot of effort and was not "stuck on EJ" IMHO.

 

Never confuse effort with results.