Bills GM Brandon Beane 'annoyed' by tanking talk

[reddogblitz]

what if he refuses to sign the tag and wants a trade?

 

Then we get every tankers dream, 2 1st round picks.

[Sig1Hunter]

Good grief...every thread has the same arguments. At some point, we have to move on guys. Three years down the road, we will have some answers and clarity as to whether the trade was good or bad.

[Kirby Jackson]

Big money. Keep trying to deflect though

The money only matters when you have to make other roster decisions because of it. With half the team on rookie deals in 2018, likely including the QB, there is tons of money to spend elsewhere.

[reddogblitz]

Both I guess.

 

The Bills aren't tanking, and the Jets, well they will botch their tank just like they do everything else...

They were allegedly tanking in 2015 with Fitz at QB. It took a Leodis pick in the EZ to keep them out of the PLAYOFFS.

[oldmanfan]

The money only matters when you have to make other roster decisions because of it. With half the team on rookie deals in 2018, likely including the QB, there is tons of money to spend elsewhere.

Agree. But the thing they had to face was picking up the option when they didn't know whether his health was good enough to warrant the investment. I do not think this was an easy call; lot of factors.

[Boatdrinks]

The money only matters when you have to make other roster decisions because of it. With half the team on rookie deals in 2018, likely including the QB, there is tons of money to spend elsewhere.

Thanks Kirby. It's good to hear a cap / salary related statement based in reality.

[reddogblitz]

I think we have to accept that they're just not going to pay WRs that much money until they know they have a franchise QB.

It's better to have more assets at a lower price. You'll have a greater ROI.

I disagree. If you have an average QB AND still want to win, the best thing to do is surround him with good WRs instead of muddling along until that golden armed franchise QB.

[Boatdrinks]

Agree. But the thing they had to face was picking up the option when they didn't know whether his health was good enough to warrant the investment. I do not think this was an easy call; lot of factors.

The option was the right call, but could have kept SW even without it. The number was however affordable for THIS team who won't be contending this year or next. If hes healthy he's worth more to the team than a 2nd rounder. That's about it really.

[oldmanfan]

I disagree. If you have an average QB AND still want to win, the best thing to do is surround him with good WRs instead of muddling along until that golden armed franchise QB.

. Which was the exact same criticism we saw from the same people when Sammy was drafted. People didn't think drafting a great WR to help EJ made sense.

[Boatdrinks]

I disagree. If you have an average QB AND still want to win, the best thing to do is surround him with good WRs instead of muddling along until that golden armed franchise QB.

Right, an average QB will be helped by this. Look at what Hopkins has done. It doesn't make a big difference when the QB is horrendous and the offensive coaches clueless.

[Riverboat Richie]

Please tell us how much the Bills were going to offer and what Sammy's walk away price is? Evidently you know.

Why is it so important that we give up a years production to get "something" for Sammy?

We got nothing for Woods, Gillislee, Hogan, Fitz, Robey, Gilnore, Fred, Byrd, Nigel, Mario ...

That's what happens most of the time. Deal with it.

 

I don't own a Sammy jersey and I HATE the trade.

Besids, it's still a Bills jersey. Wear it with pride as I do my EJ, Mario, Rob Johnson, and Flutie jerseys.

Go BILLS !!!

How much was it to pick up the option? They didn't do it. If they wouldn't pay him that what do you think they would pay him? More than the option would have cost? Why would they do that?

[Boatdrinks]

. Which was the exact same criticism we saw from the same people when Sammy was drafted. People didn't think drafting a great WR to help EJ made sense.

. Which was the exact same criticism we saw from the same people when Sammy was drafted. People didn't think drafting a great WR to help EJ made sense.

The problem was EJ is far from average. Still too high a price for drafting any non QB though.

[Just in Atlanta]

They are not trying to tank. However, the moves they made clearly state that winning this year takes a FAR back seat to winning consistently in the future.

[Beast]

I really believe this has more to do with many of the posts we're seeing, on this board, than anything else.

I believe it as well.

 

Hang onto those 14 jerseys....our next QB may pick that #.

[CanadianFan]

Sounds defensive.

[Figster]

Good grief...every thread has the same arguments. At some point, we have to move on guys. Three years down the road, we will have some answers and clarity as to whether the trade was good or bad.

Good advice that I'm going to try ...

[Boatdrinks]

How much was it to pick up the option? They didn't do it. If they wouldn't pay him that what do you think they would pay him? More than the option would have cost? Why would they do that?

Because it's not a huge difference and they would know how the 2017 season played out. Taking some uncertainty out could be worth just a couple mil in salary. Not a terrible strategy if you want more data vs more time.

[LABILLBACKER]

He should be. Considering the WR he picked up has put up better numbers than the receiver he traded away. And the CB he picked up was on the all rookie team and was playing very, then had a down year after an injury. Really not much different than Darby's last 2 seasons.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

I disagree with the "not contending" part. We might. We won 7 games last year with a coach that didn't even know how many men to put on the field.

 

The Fish made the playoffs last year after a dreadful season with a rookie HC. I don't see why it's out of the realm of possibility we can do that.

...who knows in this game?...Steelers won 2008 SB and missed playoffs in 2009 (9--7)...2015 Panthers go 15-1, lose SB followed by 6-10 in 2016.....Brady is out and Cassel goes 11-5 with Pats in 2008 and they MISS the playoffs.....so why not??...........

[LABILLBACKER]

You mean the wr who stepped on the field day 1 and immediately got injured. Not even Sammy went down that quick. I personally don't care what you call it. Tank or Rebuild. Just build a better team that can replace the Pats once B&B retire.

[GG]

What?

 

Not picking up the option was McDermotts call. I hope Pegula had nothing to do with it.

 

What are you insinuating? Watkins is a locker room cancer that players could care less to see gone?

 

I see that nuance isn't your strong suit. Nobody is saying that Sammy doesn't have talent. Nobody is saying that players thought he was a cancer. But the general reaction from the team has been, "Nice guy. So long. Next man up." That doesn't sound like a team that's lost a critical cog. It also mirrors most of the players' and coaches commentary about building the team for the future and getting the right chemistry mix.

 

Plus, there's no way, no how that McDermott makes that decision on his own after only two months on the job. You honestly believe that the same Pegulas who struck down Whaley's initial attempt to cut Freddie in his twilight would be so cavalier as to give McDermott carte blanche to cut ties with its premier player in his prime?

 

That's why there's probably more to the story than a simple money saving exercise.

[Riverboat Richie]

Because it's not a huge difference and they would know how the 2017 season played out. Taking some uncertainty out could be worth just a couple mil in salary. Not a terrible strategy if you want more data vs more time.

Well it appears they had all the data they needed. I really don't want to believe that there are people who think the coach and GM didn't know anything about Sammy. They made their decision based on what they know. That's all that matters.

[Boatdrinks]

Well it appears they had all the data they needed. I really don't want to believe that there are people who think the coach and GM didn't know anything about Sammy. They made their decision based on what they know. That's all that matters.

That doesn't make it smart or a good move.

[oldmanfan]

The problem was EJ is far from average. Still too high a price for drafting any non QB though.

Didn't know that then. EJs rookie year was reasonable. Flip flops around here are amusing

[Riverboat Richie]

That doesn't make it smart or a good move.

How do you know what kind of a move it is for either team? They haven't played a game yet but the results are in?

[BillsFan4]

Yep huge money on a team with few stars and no big time QB. It's a pretty decent number for a #1 WR if you check salaries around the league and a tool to keep the player longer in order to negotiate a cap friendly long term deal. Maybe the Bills can put together a starting 22 on rookie deals. They could win the " cap Bowl".

$13M 5th year option would have put Sammy in the top 5 or 6 paid WR's in the NFL. Not sure I'd say that's a good number for what he's done thus far in his career. I have a hard time arguing that he deserves to be paid as a top 5 WR right now, and I'm not sure one good, productive healthy year changes that (at least in the team's eyes).

 

Also, I would think $13M per season is the lowest starting point he'd accept on a long term deal. Why would he accept less? He would be guaranteed $13M next year and get $17+M or more on the tag the following year. Plus he already said that NFL players are not paid enough and he wants to change the pay structure of the NFL. That says big bucks to me.

 

And $13M next year would take up 1/2 of the Bills available $26M in cap space and they do have other players to potentially sign. I'm sure they will want to better the team, too.

 

 

I agree that they should have probably just picked up Sammy's 5th year option though and I agree that they don't have any big star players to pay (although Eric Wood will command a good size payday if they want to re-sign him & id argue that he's been more important to the offense than Sammy has).

 

Thing is, it doesn't look like the Bills had any interest in making Sammy a top 5 paid WR or using up 1/2 or more of their available cap space on him (and it would probably be more then 1/2 since the 5th year option wasn't picked up before a Beane was hired) with where the team is at right now. Maybe there were other factors at play too, but it's all speculation so I won't bother.

Whether we like it or not, they felt that he didn't fit into their future plans for whatever reason.

 

We've seen that Sammy has never been properly utilized in his time here. They're a run first team and don't have the QB to run a pass heavy offense. We don't know when they'll have the QB to use him properly yet either. We can speculate but as of now that QB doesn't look to be on the roster and may not be for years. Even if they draft a rookie next year he may not play in 2018 and if/when he does play they will still likely be a run first team in that QBs first couple/few years starting like other rookie QBs in the past (like Roethlisberger for ex). They may have felt that there's no reason to

 

I'm not even saying I agree with the trade or like it. But I disagree that cap space was not a potential issue.

 

I don't know why some people think it's such a terrible thing to build through the draft, either. That's how most of the best teams have been built. It's something the Bills haven't done in a long time. They've been trying to put a bandaid over a gunshot wound for years. Time to try something new IMO.

[QCity]

It's Beane's fault for underestimating how clueless our fanbase is.

[dulles]

Do the Pats tank season after season after season after season after season after season after season after season after season after season ?

Please... Remember the late eighties and early nineties. All teams go through horrible stretches. Consider the pre-nineties buccaneers. They even gave away a hall of fame qb.

[baskingridgebillsfan]

i think the left tackle situation is more troublesome then the wide reciever situaiton.

[Boatdrinks]

How do you know what kind of a move it is for either team? They haven't played a game yet but the results are in?

 

I'm not saying it isn't possible that SW gets injured or that the Bills draft the next great WR with that second rounder. I just wouldn't have done it given SW value to the team if he's healthy, his age, the return received, and that the team had little to lose if he didn't produce in 2017 vs the potential gain. That's it. If SW produces at the level he is capable of elsewhere it's a loss for the Bills vs losing nothing but what they spent 3 years ago with a different GM to obtain him.

[Riverboat Richie]

I'm not saying it isn't possible that SW gets injured or that the Bills draft the next great WR with that second rounder. I just wouldn't have done it given SW value to the team if he's healthy, his age, the return received, and that the team had little to lose if he didn't produce in 2017 vs the potential gain. That's it. If SW produces at the level he is capable of elsewhere it's a loss for the Bills vs losing nothing but what they spent 3 years ago with a different GM to obtain him.

I don't care what he does with the Rams. Good luck to him. He wasn't doing it for the Bills and they moved on.There are no do overs, he's gone. They are moving on.

[Boatdrinks]

I don't know why some people think it's such a terrible thing to build through the draft, either. That's how most of the best teams have been built. It's something the Bills haven't done in a long time. They've been trying to put a bandaid over a gunshot wound for years. Time to try something new IMO.

I don't disagree with building through the draft. I'm not sure how retaining Watkins could be considered anything but building through the draft though.

[grb]

The Bills definitely aren't in tank mode. That's my main issue with the deals. I'm okay tearing it down to build back up. I just don't see the sense in getting a little worse while jettisoning guys that are 22 & 24. If the Bills don't finish worse than the Jets, 49ers, Browns, Skins, Dolphins, Jags and a few others they may have a hard time getting their QB. I don't see most of those teams trading out if their guy is sitting there. If so the cost to move up this year will be insane. It will be much closer to the RG price than the Dion Jordan price. Winning 6-7 games is a nightmare scenario IMO. These trades have them in that range.

 

 

Yep. The draft picks are supposed to translate into some kind of Super Deal package, which gets one of the elite prospects. But the teams picking highest in the draft will surely be quarterback-starved and probably won't trade down. Depending on how the 2017 season goes the Bills might have one of the next tier of quarterbacks fall to them naturally. The good news? Then they can use all those draft picks to get a new Number One receiver and cornerback.

Edited August 16, 2017 by grb

[Figster]

 

 

Yep. The draft picks are supposed to translate in some kind of Super Deal package, which gets one of the elite prospects. But the teams picking highest in the draft will surely be quarterback-starved and probably won't trade down. Depending on how the 2017 season goes the Bills might have one of the next tier of quarterbacks fall to them naturally. The good news? Then they can use all those draft picks to get a new Number One receiver and cornerback.

I think getting a good WR thats not the 4th overall pick in the draft does help long term grb,

 

looking at the bright side of things you do get the best bang for your buck building through the draft.

[BillsFan4]

I don't disagree with building through the draft. I'm not sure how retaining Watkins could be considered anything but building through the draft though.

I get what you're saying but i look at building through the draft as acquiring a bunch of picks and using them to build your team.

I know Sammy was still young, but he wasn't really going to be a cost controlled asset after this year. His pay was going to sky rocket, especially if he has the type of year we all think he could/would.

 

As I mentioned in my last post, I think they are also just looking at the timeline, as well as the entire situation.

 

Had Sammy still had years left on his rookie deal they could have afforded to keep him around and wait to see.

Or if McDermott (assuming that's who decided) had picked up the 5th year option it probably/maybe bought them this year to look at him.

 

But since that decision was made before Beane got here (maybe a mistake from a rookie coach who shouldn't really be making those decisions yet, especially without the proper people surrounding him), Beane made the best of the circumstances he was dealt, IMO anyway. He got a player and (what could be a high) 2nd round pick, and he also got a replacement WR that's been just as productive on the field and could be cheaper to sign or if not they still likely get the same 3rd round comp pick as if Sammy had left in FA.

 

So they maximized an asset as best they could. I'm not sure Sammy would have been worth as much in a trade on the franchise tag next year. It's a lot more expensive than his deal now (esp. considering the Bills already paid out a chunk of it this year, so his cap hit is super cheap for LA) and you usually don't see NFL players on expensive deals or on franchise tags getting traded for much value. Plus I believe him on the tag would kind of hinder that option for the next team, a staffing him the following year would be even more expensive (since it's the 2nd tag in a row).

 

I also just don't think they felt that they're anywhere near at a time where they need (or want) to devote a big chunk of their cap space to a potentially elite WR that isn't really producing on the field (because of injury availability, under-utilization etc).

 

I think they know that this team has massive holes and is severely lacking depth in so many areas, so they traded a UFA to be for multiple assets. It sucks that a talent like Sammy was traded, but this is the kind of forward thinking asset management that the Bills have not had in a while. I don't necessarily agree with trading Sammy himself, but when I look at the entire picture, especially from the point of view of someone who has no attachment to Sammy (like Beane), I can understand where they're coming from and I can appreciate the move.

 

I don't know man. Just my opinion.

[grb]

I think getting a good WR thats not the 4th overall pick in the draft does help long term grb,

 

looking at the bright side of things you do get the best bang for your buck building through the draft.

 

There are two ways of looking at it : If you trade value for value - Watkins out and a new prime target in - then you have the same result for a lot less money. But nothing in the draft is ever certain, so will you get value for value? (of course Watkins was never certain either, so there is that). I'd like to see them spend some of those picks on the offensive line.......

[Kmart128]

I dont like that talk as well... we wouldnt have added Gaines and Matthews if we were tanking. We would have just stocked up more draft picks. We simply added picks for future teams while adding more production for current team. It lowers our ceiling but raises our floor for this year

[26CornerBlitz]

I dont like that talk as well... we wouldnt have added Gaines and Matthews if we were tanking. We would have just stocked up more draft picks. We simply added picks for future teams while adding more production for current team. It lowers our ceiling but raises our floor for this year

 

Not with Matthews out for the season with a broken heart and Gaines losing a foot to amputation.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

@nfl.com

Bills GM Brandon Beane 'annoyed' by tanking talkhttps://amp.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000829966/article/bills-gm-brandon-beane-annoyed-by-tanking-talk?networkId=4595&site=.news&zone=story&zoneUrl=url%3dstory&zoneKeys=s1%3dstory&env=&pageKeyValues=prtnr%3daround-the-league%3bteam%3dbuf%3bconf%3dafc%3bdvsn%3dace%3bplyr%3danquan_boldin%3bplyr%3djordan_matthews&p.ct=Around+the+NFL&p.adsm=false&p.tcm=%23fff&p.bgc1m=%230964bf&p.bgc2m=%23053a74&sr=amp

Now finish the job.

[Figster]

 

There are two ways of looking at it : If you trade value for value - Watkins out and a new prime target in - then you have the same result for a lot less money. But nothing in the draft is ever certain, so will you get value for value? (of course Watkins was never certain either, so there is that). I'd like to see them spend some of those picks on the offensive line.......

The drafted player/s to replace Sammy end up costing way less and lets not forget Beane had another trade in place to help make up for Watkins lost production on the field.

 

The more I think about it grp this really was a smart business decision in my humble opinion.

 

One way or the other we have to move forward...

 

(Took awhile for me to except this conclusion)