metzelaars_lives Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 We all know that, as it stands, Brady's 4-2 Super Bowl record pales in comparison to Montana's undefeated 4-0 record (as well as Bradshaw's). Even with a win in two weeks, 5-2 still can't eclipse going undefeated like Montana, whom he can never catch. I think, interestingly enough, he may have been better off losing yesterday because if they do in fact lose to the high flying Falcons now, and his Super Bowl record drops all the way to 4-3, his legacy takes an enormous hit. At that point, you may have to start elevating such undefeated Super Bowl QB's as Doug Williams, Mark Rypien, Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Joe Flacco- certainly Eli Manning- to maybe not all time greater QB's than Brady, but definitely all time greater Super Bowl performing QB's. As has been established on this board, playing in the Super Bowl is a very dangerous game- if you win, obviously your legacy is elevated. But if you lose, your legacy takes a hit and you're better off having not made it in the first place. For instance, a guy like Donovan McNabb is a far greater all time QB for losing all those NFC Championship games than he would be if he won them but lost in the Super Bowl. Shall be very interesting to see how this plays out in a couple weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) His legacy is this no matter what happens in the Superbowl. He is the BEST QB in the Modern Era for football and likely the BEST of all times, because he did it in the Salary Cap Era, not the can keep a elite franchise together NON Salary Cap Era Montana played in. Edited January 23, 2017 by MAJBobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubes Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Wishful thinking. Brady's legacy is pretty darn solid. If his goal is to be GOAT, then a loss in this SB will not help, but 5-2 or 4-3 is still a stellar legacy that can't be denied -- much as we all hate to admit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 His legacy is this no matter what happens in the Superbowl. He is the BEST QB in the Modern Era for football Yeah but he can never catch Montana as far as his Super Bowl legacy. Even if he goes 7-2, he can never catch Montana's 4-0. You see, part of the beauty of Montana's career was losing three conference championship games to help preserve his perfect 4-0 Super Bowl record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewin Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Same as Lance Armstrong - cheater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaattMaann Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 His legacy is this no matter what happens in the Superbowl. He is the BEST QB in the Modern Era for football and likely the BEST of all times, because he did it in the Salary Cap Era, not the can keep a elite franchise together NON Salary Cap Era Montana played in. Yes unfortunately this is correct...dont care about overall super bowl record...count the rings man Peyton is a close 2nd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 this is a bit like crayonz posts about it being good to lose games if you are out of conference, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corp000085 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 The boston globe tweeted yesterday that BB was the greatest coach ever. Luke russert retweeted and stated that Barry Bonds was the greatest hitter since Ted Williams, but his obituary cannot be written without the word "cheater" in it. I'm paraphrasing the tweet since I cannot access Twitter at work... With that said, yes, Tom Brady is a great QB, but you cannot write his obituary without mentioning cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Yeah but he can never catch Montana as far as his Super Bowl legacy. Even if he goes 7-2, he can never catch Montana's 4-0. You see, part of the beauty of Montana's career was losing three conference championship games to help preserve his perfect 4-0 Super Bowl record. Salary Cap (Brady) vs Non (Montana). Brady is the best of all time. I get it we all hate him but anything less is Naïve to say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manther Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 His legacy is this no matter what happens in the Superbowl. He is the BEST QB in the Modern Era for football and likely the BEST of all times, because he did it in the Salary Cap Era, not the can keep a elite franchise together NON Salary Cap Era Montana played in. Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Not to mention out of all the SBs Brady has won. I really bet he wants this one the Most just to STICK it to Godell and the NFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr1 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 alternative health huckster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manther Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Yeah but he can never catch Montana as far as his Super Bowl legacy. Even if he goes 7-2, he can never catch Montana's 4-0. You see, part of the beauty of Montana's career was losing three conference championship games to help preserve his perfect 4-0 Super Bowl record.If he ends his career 7-2 in Super Bowls I think that is better than 4-0 or at least debatable. 7 SB wins! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 The boston globe tweeted yesterday that BB was the greatest coach ever. Luke russert retweeted and stated that Barry Bonds was the greatest hitter since Ted Williams, but his obituary cannot be written without the word "cheater" in it. I'm paraphrasing the tweet since I cannot access Twitter at work... With that said, yes, Tom Brady is a great QB, but you cannot write his obituary without mentioning cheating. that's fair. it's part of the story. how one chooses to see that in relation to everyone else out there is up to them. the guy is an exceptional qb anyway you slice it. he'll be ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 this is a bit like crayonz posts about it being good to lose games if you are out of conference, right? Correct. It is a calling out of sorts to the approximately 10% of TBD posters who still adhere to the most idiotic, illogical, easily refutable football argument I have ever heard in my life (and that is not hyperbole) that Montana's 4-0 Super Bowl record > Brady's 4-2 Super Bowl record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) Now BB legacy is a little harder for me, because he is tied Directly to Brady. So is BB still BB without Tom Brady? and for that matter the mysterious Ernie Adams Edited January 23, 2017 by MAJBobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanNH Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) We all know that, as it stands, Brady's 4-2 Super Bowl record pales in comparison to Montana's undefeated 4-0 record (as well as Bradshaw's). Even with a win in two weeks, 5-2 still can't eclipse going undefeated like Montana, whom he can never catch. I think, interestingly enough, he may have been better off losing yesterday because if they do in fact lose to the high flying Falcons now, and his Super Bowl record drops all the way to 4-3, his legacy takes an enormous hit. At that point, you may have to start elevating such undefeated Super Bowl QB's as Doug Williams, Mark Rypien, Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Joe Flacco- certainly Eli Manning- to maybe not all time greater QB's than Brady, but definitely all time greater Super Bowl performing QB's. As has been established on this board, playing in the Super Bowl is a very dangerous game- if you win, obviously your legacy is elevated. But if you lose, your legacy takes a hit and you're better off having not made it in the first place. For instance, a guy like Donovan McNabb is a far greater all time QB for losing all those NFC Championship games than he would be if he won them but lost in the Super Bowl. Shall be very interesting to see how this plays out in a couple weeks. I will NEVER understand how going 4-0 is better than going 4-2. I mean the guy is less great because he made the big game two MORE times than Montana or Bradshaw! Also in theb2 losses he had gotten the lead for the team with around 2 minutes to go. I don't know what else a QB can do in those spots... he can't play D! Also Kelly >>>>>>>> McNair and he lost 4 straight SB! The crazy notion that losing a SB makes you less of a great player is just astronomically dumb in my opinion. IMO I hate comparing different eras against eachother as rules, and leagues change. Brady IMO (biased as it is) is the greatest QB in the modern era followed by P. Manning. I think P Manning is LIGHTYEARS Better than his little Bro even though he is 2-1 and Eli is 2-0. Edited January 23, 2017 by PatsFanNH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manther Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Not to mention out of all the SBs Brady has won. I really bet he wants this one the Most just to STICK it to Godell and the NFLAgreed. Similar to there 16-0 season. He and the Pats** want to stick it to The NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Correct. It is a calling out of sorts to the approximately 10% of TBD posters who still adhere to the most idiotic, illogical, easily refutable football argument I have ever heard in my life (and that is not hyperbole) that Montana's 4-0 Super Bowl record > Brady's 4-2 Super Bowl record. And 5-2 is and will always be better than 4-0 (more wins) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaattMaann Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Now BB legacy is a little harder for me, because he is tied Directly to Brady. So is BB still BB without Tom Brady? and for that matter the mysterious Ernie Adams I think BB and TB are intertwined and cannot be separated for purposes of ranking coaches/QBs I think one without the other never ever comes close to the success they have achieved together Take TB away from BB and BB is an average football coach, take BB away from TB and TB is an average QB...together, and with the winning and confidence that has happened which has grown spread to all players on the team, they have become the best QB and best coach in NFL history What they have done together is incredible, and as a Bills fan, heart breaking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kota Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Brady's legacy is simple. Best QB to play the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 And 5-2 is and will always be better than 4-0 (more wins) Of course it is. But 4-2 is also better than 4-0. So is 4-3. The logic of anyone who says otherwise is to insist that Super Bowl appearances are actually a blemish on your record if you don't win and that you'd have been better off going 7-9. And as Bills fans there is a ton of irony there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I think BB and TB are intertwined and cannot be separated for purposes of ranking coaches/QBs I think one without the other never ever comes close to the success they have achieved together Take TB away from BB and BB is an average football coach, take BB away from TB and TB is an average QB...together, and with the winning and confidence that has happened which has grown spread to all players on the team, they have become the best QB and best coach in NFL history What they have done together is incredible, and as a Bills fan, heart breaking Another thing I really like about BB is that every year he does have an Academy (normally Navy) somewhere on that team. I do think having those players on the roster do help the professionalism and lockeroom as well. Might be harder to quantify because they are often not the best player (more likely the 53rd most talented player and even more talent on the streets) but there is something to be said that he always has one on that roster. Of course it is. But 4-2 is also better than 4-0. So is 4-3. The logic of anyone who says otherwise is to insist that Super Bowl appearances are actually a blemish on your record if you don't win and that you'd have been better off going 7-9. And as Bills fans there is a ton of irony there. Agree that is why I stated earlier no matter what happens in the SB Bradys legacy is the best Modern Era QB to play the game, and likely even the Best QB to ever play the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 Another thing I really like about BB is that every year he does have an Academy (normally Navy) somewhere on that team. I do think having those players on the roster do help the professionalism and lockeroom as well. Might be harder to quantify because they are often not the best player (more likely the 53rd most talented player and even more talent on the streets) but there is something to be said that he always has one on that roster. Agree that is why I stated earlier no matter what happens in the SB Bradys legacy is the best Modern Era QB to play the game, and likely even the Best QB to ever play the game He's probably already the best player to ever play the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorquemada Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 this is a bit like crayonz posts about it being good to lose games if you are out of conference, right? was thinking same. also, pats arent going to lose to atlanta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 was thinking same. also, pats arent going to lose to atlanta I hope some of you kept reading and saw that my OP was 100% sarcastic. Even if they do lose, Brady's legacy is still bolstered by winning another conference championship. Conference championships are good. It's why the Bills have like eight hall of famers from that era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 His legacy? Undeniably one of (if not THE) greatest QBs to play the game, who despite that fact found it necessary to cheat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Legacy = goat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanNH Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I hope some of you kept reading and saw that my OP was 100% sarcastic. Even if they do lose, Brady's legacy is still bolstered by winning another conference championship. Conference championships are good. It's why the Bills have like eight hall of famers from that era. Brady's numbers for important games is scary.. in 15 years (I took out the one year he was out do to injury) 14 division Titles (93% average) 11 AFC Finalist (73% average) 7 AFC Champion (47% average) SB Champion.. either 4 or 5 (27% or 33%) I dare say those are record setting accomplishments. Also makes me understand why other fans are sick of them as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorquemada Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I hope some of you kept reading and saw that my OP was 100% sarcastic. Even if they do lose, Brady's legacy is still bolstered by winning another conference championship. Conference championships are good. It's why the Bills have like eight hall of famers from that era. i didn't realize it was sarcastic, but I did look at who posted it and thought to myself "this isnt one of the normal counter-factual reprobates that loves to be contrarian for contrarianism's sake" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QB Bills Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Most accomplished QB in terms of winning. Not much doubt about that. But the legitimacy of how he's done it will always be questioned. And it doesn't make you a whiner to do so. FFS, they used to send team employees to the other team's dressing room while adorned in NFL media gear. There's so many questions about the methods they've employed to gain an advantage. Hopefully it all comes out one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) We all know that, as it stands, Brady's 4-2 Super Bowl record pales in comparison to Montana's undefeated 4-0 record (as well as Bradshaw's). Even with a win in two weeks, 5-2 still can't eclipse going undefeated like Montana, whom he can never catch. I think, interestingly enough, he may have been better off losing yesterday because if they do in fact lose to the high flying Falcons now, and his Super Bowl record drops all the way to 4-3, his legacy takes an enormous hit. At that point, you may have to start elevating such undefeated Super Bowl QB's as Doug Williams, Mark Rypien, Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Joe Flacco- certainly Eli Manning- to maybe not all time greater QB's than Brady, but definitely all time greater Super Bowl performing QB's. As has been established on this board, playing in the Super Bowl is a very dangerous game- if you win, obviously your legacy is elevated. But if you lose, your legacy takes a hit and you're better off having not made it in the first place. For instance, a guy like Donovan McNabb is a far greater all time QB for losing all those NFC Championship games than he would be if he won them but lost in the Super Bowl. Shall be very interesting to see how this plays out in a couple weeks. He's the GOAT. Asked and answered. Edited January 23, 2017 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanNH Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Most accomplished QB in terms of winning. Not much doubt about that. But the legitimacy of how he's done it will always be questioned. And it doesn't make you a whiner to do so. FFS, they used to send team employees to the other team's dressing room while adorned in NFL media gear. There's so many questions about the methods they've employed to gain an advantage. Hopefully it all comes out one day. Lol at least stick with the proven ones like Spygate. The one you. Referenced is right up there with bugging their locker room before the game. Silly and ridiculous as you gain nothing from it. (As well as unproven.) But your point is valid still just not for the example you chose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Now BB legacy is a little harder for me, because he is tied Directly to Brady. So is BB still BB without Tom Brady? and for that matter the mysterious Ernie Adams No, BB is likely not the same without TB. As for Brady, while you point out that he has done what he has in the salary cap era, I feel that his job has been easier due to that fact. The competition is worse, overall QBing is worse, and it's much easier to throw the football than it was for guys such as Montana, Marino, Kelly et al. Just TB's reaction when he gets hit often in a game ( relatively rare) makes me think he would not have had as long a career in the 80's or 90's when QBs got pummeled routinely without flags being thrown. So TB has played a game that is very different in a beneficial way. While it's true that overall team talent is harder to keep together in the cap area , that is true for other teams as well and the passing rules have made the QB all important. He has managed to stay in one place with one coach and one offense his whole career. In an era where the overall quality of the NFL is low. These facts can't be overlooked or diminished. Is he a great QB? Yes. Is he better than Montana or others? I'd say no for those reasons. At best it is conjecture and speculation , a pointless exercise. Unless you happen to be a Pats fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryPinC Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Now BB legacy is a little harder for me, because he is tied Directly to Brady. So is BB still BB without Tom Brady? and for that matter the mysterious Ernie Adams For me, I consider Matt Cassel, Jimmy Garoppolo, and Jacoby Brissett. I consider how their aerial attack revolves around a big TE and a bunch of quick, smart white guys. How New England rarely drafts big name skill position players. Yet they maintain success. They don't always have dominant running backs or #1 receivers but when they do, they take advantage. You look at all their success, beyond Brady, has it been a good number of supremely talented players on both sides of the ball like most dynasty franchises? I would say no and that's the mark of a great coach. The system and discipline he coaches are supreme. His cheating truly diminishes his legacy but I think he's still the best of all time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 He's the GOAT. Asked and answered. 4-0 Superbowl record in an era where QBs were physically punished, overall QB play in the league was at a higher level , and it was more difficult to pass the ball. Montana is the GOAT. And probably will be for a long time. My opinion will not change regardless of what TB does. Others disagree . I don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) 4-0 Superbowl record in an era where QBs were physically punished, overall QB play in the league was at a higher level , and it was more difficult to pass the ball. Montana is the GOAT. And probably will be for a long time. My opinion will not change regardless of what TB does. Others disagree . I don't care.Ha we got one! OK so easy question: Is Joe Montana a greater all time QB as it stands vs. had he won the additional three conference championships he lost but then lost in the Super Bowl instead? In other words 4-3 with 7 conference championships instead of 4. Yes or no. I'll hang up and listen. And also, yes, it was harder to play the position back then, agreed. But this idea that the level of play was better? What? Matthew Stafford and Eli Manning are like average QB's now. You think the 14th best QB in 1985 was better than Matthew Stafford? That's laughable. Edited January 23, 2017 by metzelaars_lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) We all know that, as it stands, Brady's 4-2 Super Bowl record pales in comparison to Montana's undefeated 4-0 record (as well as Bradshaw's). Even with a win in two weeks, 5-2 still can't eclipse going undefeated like Montana, whom he can never catch. I think, interestingly enough, he may have been better off losing yesterday because if they do in fact lose to the high flying Falcons now, and his Super Bowl record drops all the way to 4-3, his legacy takes an enormous hit. At that point, you may have to start elevating such undefeated Super Bowl QB's as Doug Williams, Mark Rypien, Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Joe Flacco- certainly Eli Manning- to maybe not all time greater QB's than Brady, but definitely all time greater Super Bowl performing QB's. As has been established on this board, playing in the Super Bowl is a very dangerous game- if you win, obviously your legacy is elevated. But if you lose, your legacy takes a hit and you're better off having not made it in the first place. For instance, a guy like Donovan McNabb is a far greater all time QB for losing all those NFC Championship games than he would be if he won them but lost in the Super Bowl. Shall be very interesting to see how this plays out in a couple weeks. Could not disagree with you more about his legacy. He may be 4-2, but those 2 losses were not his fault. Critical dropped passes by his WRs that would have likely sealed both those wins, followed by fluke impossible plays by Eli and or his WR's after that are why they lost. Brady's legacy will still be LIGHT years better than just about every QB you named outside Joe Montana. Lets not forget, that Brady's first 3 SB's were won with him throwing to scrubs at WR while Montana had one of the greatest collection of weapons in NFL history over most his career. He had incredible WR's, TE's and RB's playing behind a great OL in a revolutionary system they created before it had spread across the NFL. Not to mention and talented Defense to go with him every year just about. Those Niners teams had some of the best ever at their positions and were supremely more talented rosters than just about any roster Brady has been a part of. Brady will ALWAYS be at min top 3 all time overall and top 3 playoffs overall and will have a case for best ever across the board. He has done more with less compared to Montana. He always brings it. That being said, F Tom Brady and go Falcons lol Edited January 23, 2017 by Alphadawg7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 Could not disagree with you more about his legacy. He may be 4-2, but those 2 losses were not his fault. Critical dropped passes by his WRs that would have likely sealed both those wins, followed by fluke impossible plays by Eli and or his WR's after that are why they lost. Brady's legacy will still be LIGHT years better than just about every QB you named outside Joe Montana. Lets not forget, that Brady's first 3 SB's were won with him throwing to scrubs at WR while Montana had one of the greatest collection of weapons in NFL history over most his career. He had incredible WR's, TE's and RB's playing behind a great OL in a revolutionary system they created before it had spread across the NFL. Brady will ALWAYS be at min top 3 all time overall and top 3 playoffs overall. He always brings it. That being said, F Tom Brady and go Falcons lol Dude I was joking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 No, BB is likely not the same without TB. As for Brady, while you point out that he has done what he has in the salary cap era, I feel that his job has been easier due to that fact. The competition is worse, overall QBing is worse, and it's much easier to throw the football than it was for guys such as Montana, Marino, Kelly et al. Just TB's reaction when he gets hit often in a game ( relatively rare) makes me think he would not have had as long a career in the 80's or 90's when QBs got pummeled routinely without flags being thrown. So TB has played a game that is very different in a beneficial way. While it's true that overall team talent is harder to keep together in the cap area , that is true for other teams as well and the passing rules have made the QB all important. He has managed to stay in one place with one coach and one offense his whole career. In an era where the overall quality of the NFL is low. These facts can't be overlooked or diminished. Is he a great QB? Yes. Is he better than Montana or others? I'd say no for those reasons. At best it is conjecture and speculation , a pointless exercise. Unless you happen to be a Pats fan. I get that. However look at this. Montana - HOF WR Kelly - HOF WR Mario - HOF WR Those players had HOFers in their own right around them as weapons. Brady has Gronk (though he does miss a lot of games). For me that does matter, what he has done with the talent in the skill positions is not deniable as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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