Twitter rumors about Bills new structure, fate of Rex/Whaley

[Dr. K]

 

I assume the Whaley impulse control comments apply primarily to EJ and Sammy. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not sure why people don't come right out and say it.

 

I don't get the Sammy stuff at all. If someone in the know can point out how we could have given up less to get him then fine, let me know about that. Otherwise I'm not sure why everyone is complaining about the player who is quite obviously far and away the most talented player on this team with the possible exception of the older and more expensive McCoy and Mario. If we had moved up and taken Mack instead, then Mack would be the most talented player on the team. We weren't getting either of them without that move.

 

As for EJ....if you told me that we could have moved down again....meaning there was a willing trade partner at say pick #25-35, then fine. Otherwise, enough. We moved down once and added the pipsqueak LB. That is a guy that Whaley overvalued so I'll give everyone that. But usually people aren't talking about Kiko when criticizing Whaley.

 

Insert Donahoe into the equation and we have Tavon Austin instead of Sammy, no EJ or Alonso and God knows what. Austin is a decent player and has his uses but he is not in the same league with Watkins.

 

In FA moves I think there are some valid praises and criticisms of Whaley. More OL help would have been nice but it was rumored he did everything he could to get Bulaga. Hughes sure was a nice pickup and some other guys have contributed at times.

Exactly. People who rail about drafting EJ never name the great QB from that draft that the Bills should have drafted instead. They never mention that Whaley traded down and picked up an extra second rounder who turned into Kiko (who later became McCoy). I've even seen people complain here about how Whaley TRADED UP to get EJ.

 

Not to say he's been perfect and he may be gone but I don't expect this mythical "Czar" to come in and turn everything into sugarplums and twenty year old bourbon with his magic wand. Looking at the problems with the team this season and deciding to keep the coach and fired the GM would be just about a classic Bills move.

[CodeMonkey]

 

I'm not buying any of this.

I'm with you. Doesn't make even a little sense. Hard to blame Whaley for this mess of a season, if he is not part of the Bills next season it will be because he quit IMO. And are they going to fire Ryan after 1 season, no matter how disappointing, and with his current guaranteed contract? No sense at all. But, we are talking about a rookie owner and the Buffalo Bills.

[ko12010]

I reported this 2 weeks ago. I guess it's only a story if you have a twitter following

Or if you're not just a random message board fan spouting an opinion

[Dorkington]

It really sucks we only got 2 years of 'the cold front'

[Mango]

I am going to point a finger at Pegula also. It appears he hired RR and has Ryan reporting directly to him. IMHO, an owner needs to get his paws off such hiring decisions. If TP gets a czar, he should also be prepared to give up meddling and control on the decisions for coaching and players. I am not going out too much on a limb if I sat that Pegula knows money but didn't know jack squat about building a winning NFL franchise

 

 

Pegulas know money because they have it. A little info, Pegula had a business partner that handled all the business/money things in an official manner. Terry was the scientist/geologist, Mullan is the man who organized the business and money. While a man does not accumulate that much wealth by accident, he by no means was brokering his own deals in the slightest.

[Nihilarian]

 

A disappointment? Absolutely! A disaster is taking it too far IMO.

Perhaps my definition of a disaster is different from yours, but going from #2 in 2013, #1 in 2015 to now #30 in sacks is a disaster in my book. Even big stink, no blitz Dave Wannstedt had 37 sacks. The Bills are currently at 20 sacks with two games to go. That was a top 5 defense last year and the supposed defensive guru took it to 21st now.

 

I could see the offense struggling with basically a rookie QB behind center, but the offense was actually the highlight of the season with Shady and Taylor. The defense and lack of team discipline are the reasons this year's team is 6-8 record and out of the playoffs.

 

Bills fan anticipated greatness, and instead we got a sloppy version of Dick Jauron who had no Mario, no Dareus, no Hughes.

[FireChan]

I can't think of any reason for such an odd structuring to a contract. Oh wait, yes I can.

Oh we had a reason? Oh, that makes it okay to give Gronk money for Scott Chandler production. Nice job Doug! Hell of a play.

[PromoTheRobot]

You know, I see a lot of speculation and imagination on what Brandon does taken as rock hard fact.

[Nihilarian]

 

Aren't there rumors that Whaley wanted Hue Jackson? That would make sense as NFL GM's know way more about how 4-3 style defensive players don't all fit nicely in a 3-4 pressure D?

 

I think Whaley who was on thin ice would be crazy to recommend a coach that would change the very thing that the Bills had the most money in.

If there were rumors of Whaley wanting Hue Jackson I didn't hear / read of them. What I do recall is Russ Brandon telling the new owners that "they" would know who to hire after they spoke with him.

 

My thoughts derived the way they did because of the Mike Pettine hire fresh from Rex Ryan's team to run the Bills 2013 defense. Pettine was on Rex's defensive staff as the DC from 2009-2012, and then why not bring in the master to make the defense even better. If I'm not mistaken both Whaley, and Brandon met with Pettine before the team hired him.

[drinkTHEkoolaid]

Cowher is not leaving a cushy job to come back to coaching.....either is Gruden..........

Good because I don't want either of them

[BLizzyMeock]

There are much bigger issues regarding Rex as a deficient coach that have little to do with his inability to bring in aging veteran players to teach his "system". Rex's record as a coach in NY was a losing record. By the time he got fired the team he was instrumental in assembling and coaching was in chaos.

 

When you describe the character of a Rex coached team one word that won't be associated with it is discipline. Another word not associated with a Rex coached team is intelligence. Another word not associated with his teams is maturity.

 

People are now bringing up hypothetical issues such as "what if this" and "what if that" in order to explain the stunning descent of a team. What has happened with the Bills should not have been a surprise. The same destructive cycle happened in NY. Our organization enthusiastically hired a failed HC that another organization was relieved to get rid of. Rex didn't have a successful tenure in NY. He had a cumulative losing record. Yet the Bills' organization found him to be an appealing candidate based on an impressive interview. Just think about it. A bullshiiiit interview proved to be more persuasive than a six year losing record ending in chaos

 

The Jets are now a stabilized organization under a stolid but professional coach. This year they weren't subjected to the circus act that always surrounds this attention grabbing hound dog coach. When one of their marginal players punched their qb in the locker room and broke his jaw the Jets immediately responded by cutting him. Our clown coach immediately added him to the roster. That's the type of thuggish and dump player that appeals to this fool coach. The bottom line is that the Rex Ryan that we now got is the Rex Ryan we brought in.

 

Well said.

Edited December 21, 2015 by BLizzyMeock

[JohnC]

It would be surprising to me if Rex survives and Whaley is ousted. To my biased eye, probably 95% of the problems with this year's team speak right to coaching. When all of the players talk about the talent that has been assembled it's hard not to listen.

 

I am fine with Pegula hiring a "czar" as long as he isn't a dinosaur like Polian.

 

I'm still glad Marrone is gone.

 

The Rex honeymoon (for me) finally ended with the loss in Philly.

Marrone left on his own volition so it is futile to discuss his departure. But what I will say about him and believe it is a fair analysis about his tenure is that he did more with less talent than Rex who did less with more talent.

 

DM made a very early unfavorable assessment on EJ that proved to be right. He also made an early unfavorable assessment on Kujo that also proved to be right. On those two players both coaches agreed with each other. I bring up these two players because DM was skewered for not giving these players enough opportunity. In the end what he saw in each player materialized.

 

It's difficult to make a fair judgment on a two year coaching stint. However, Doug Marrone took over a team that was in a rebuild mode. In his first year the team won 4 games. The next year the team won 9 games (some say 8) even though their offense was far from being adequately staffed, especially on the OL and at qb.

 

Doug Marrone was a tough coach. He strictly held the players accountable. A lot of players didn't like him for his tough stance. But they always played hard for him. Compare that to what is going on now. Especially on defense this is a fractured team, a team that is in a free fall.

 

My point is simple. Although Doug Marrone was unlikable he was a better coach than the more likable current coach. The bottom line is it is about the bottom line. Without any hesitation I would take the former dour coach over the present loquacious coach.

[Dorkington]

Oh we had a reason? Oh, that makes it okay to give Gronk money for Scott Chandler production. Nice job Doug! Hell of a play.

He was the leading receiver on our team up until his injury.

 

And as a usage rate, let's take a look:

 

Clay 13 games, 80 targets: 6.15 targets per game... 32.6% of passes the Bills attempt go towards Clay.

 

Chandler 16 games, 70 targets, 4.375 targets per game... 12.1% of passes the Bills attempted went towards Chandler.

 

Gronk 13 games, 107 targets, 8.23 targets per game... 31.2% of passes the Pats attempt go towards Gronk.

 

Conclusion: Clay is significantly more important to our offense than Scott Chandler was.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Dorkington

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Whaley has problems with Impulse control. When he likes someone he dramatically OVER VALUES them and will dramatically overspend for them.

 

Where do you get this?

[PromoTheRobot]

There are much bigger issues regarding Rex as a deficient coach that have little to do with his inability to bring in aging veteran players to teach his "system". Rex's record as a coach in NY was a losing record. By the time he got fired the team he was instrumental in assembling and coaching was in chaos.

 

When you describe the character of a Rex coached team one word that won't be associated with it is discipline. Another word not associated with a Rex coached team is intelligence. Another word not associated with his teams is maturity.

 

People are now bringing up hypothetical issues such as "what if this" and "what if that" in order to explain the stunning descent of a team. What has happened with the Bills should not have been a surprise. The same destructive cycle happened in NY. Our organization enthusiastically hired a failed HC that another organization was relieved to get rid of. Rex didn't have a successful tenure in NY. He had a cumulative losing record. Yet the Bills' organization found him to be an appealing candidate based on an impressive interview. Just think about it. A bullshiiiit interview proved to be more persuasive than a six year losing record ending in chaos

 

The Jets are now a stabilized organization under a stolid but professional coach. This year they weren't subjected to the circus act that always surrounds this attention grabbing hound dog coach. When one of their marginal players punched their qb in the locker room and broke his jaw the Jets immediately responded by cutting him. Our clown coach immediately added him to the roster. That's the type of thuggish and dump player that appeals to this fool coach. The bottom line is that the Rex Ryan that we now got is the Rex Ryan we brought in.

I bought into the Rex hire at the time. It seemed like a perfect move: hire a defensive "genius", on who gave Belichick fits, to perfect our already solid defense.

 

But right off my Pats fan friends warned me Rex was a bag of hot gas. I didn't care. Turned out they were on the money.

 

You can't spin this as Rex not having the right players. You don't get hired to run a top defense and say everyone has to be replaced. He was supposed to perfect what we had.

 

Where do you get this?

Collective hallucinations.

[GG]

You can't spin this as Rex not having the right players. You don't get hired to run a top defense and say everyone has to be replaced. He was supposed to perfect what we had.

 

Where do you get the notion that everybody needs to be replaced?

 

I see a malcontent overpriced mutinous DE and a new MLB. The rest of the pieces are in good position.

[Mr. WEO]

I did not know this. Brandon reminds me of a barker at a cheap carnival, except he is about big time money. It's all he knows and really all that Ralph probably ever wanted from him.

 

 

My guess is that the Pegulas relied more on Whaley's input than Brandon's for the Rex hire, hence the hot seat for Whaley now.

[Dorkington]

 

Where do you get the notion that everybody needs to be replaced?

 

I see a malcontent overpriced mutinous DE and a new MLB. The rest of the pieces are in good position.

The results do not indicate that we only need a new DE and MLB.

[BuffaninATL]

if bringing a Czar on board who then decides to axe Rex is the play, it then protects Pegula from being known as an owner who fires a coach after 1 year, although if there is a Coach who deserves to get canned after 1 year it is Rex.

 

I hear people say our record is about where the pundits predicted it would be, and that we had a shot at 5 games down to the last drive. I look at the context of how we play and what our character is - I see what you all see: sloppy, undisciplined, no accountability, unprepared, unintelligent play. This is what is embarrassing - the clown car show.

[vincec]

Here we go again. This has me all excited , then come Mid January nothing will have changed. Next 3 weeks will be 3 long weeks that's for sure.

Excited? This is like throwing some tires on a dumpster fire. If this is true, and I doubt it, it means a near total rebuild and many more years of ineptitude. That doesn't sound too exciting to me.

[PromoTheRobot]

 

Where do you get the notion that everybody needs to be replaced?

 

I see a malcontent overpriced mutinous DE and a new MLB. The rest of the pieces are in good position.

I wasn't speaking of Mario specifically. Just the notion that Rex failed because he didn't have the right guys to run his magical defense.

[GG]

The results do not indicate that we only need a new DE and MLB.

 

Do you think this defense would be drastically different if you swapped out Mario/Brown for Wilkerson/Harris?

[RyanC883]

If they hire Tales from the Crypt Polian it will get even worse. Whaley has done a good job with personnel. If he was the initiator of Rex then it is on him. If he agreed to the Pegulas wishes IMO he shouldn't be punished for that,

 

If it's Polian the team is doooomed...unless Whaley retains control of making a roster. The team would have made the playoffs this year with last years D. The problem is clearly Rex.

[PromoTheRobot]

if bringing a Czar on board who then decides to axe Rex is the play, it then protects Pegula from being known as an owner who fires a coach after 1 year, although if there is a Coach who deserves to get canned after 1 year it is Rex.

 

I hear people say our record is about where the pundits predicted it would be, and that we had a shot at 5 games down to the last drive. I look at the context of how we play and what our character is - I see what you all see: sloppy, undisciplined, no accountability, unprepared, unintelligent play. This is what is embarrassing - the clown car show.

The whole final drive excuse is a red herring from the QB haters. They just look for ways to spin everything to their twisted view. The fact is the offense and QB position improved and exceeded our preseason hopes. What failed was the collapse of our vaunted defense.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Marrone left on his own volition so it is futile to discuss his departure. But what I will say about him and believe it is a fair analysis about his tenure is that he did more with less talent than Rex who did less with more talent.

 

DM made a very early unfavorable assessment on EJ that proved to be right. He also made an early unfavorable assessment on Kujo that also proved to be right. On those two players both coaches agreed with each other. I bring up these two players because DM was skewered for not giving these players enough opportunity. In the end what he saw in each player materialized.

 

It's difficult to make a fair judgment on a two year coaching stint. However, Doug Marrone took over a team that was in a rebuild mode. In his first year the team won 4 games. The next year the team won 9 games (some say 8) even though their offense was far from being adequately staffed, especially on the OL and at qb.

 

Doug Marrone was a tough coach. He strictly held the players accountable. A lot of players didn't like him for his tough stance. But they always played hard for him. Compare that to what is going on now. Especially on defense this is a fractured team, a team that is in a free fall.

 

My point is simple. Although Doug Marrone was unlikable he was a better coach than the more likable current coach. The bottom line is it is about the bottom line. Without any hesitation I would take the former dour coach over the present loquacious coach.

 

I've said this before, but I disagree with your final point. I think Marrone and Rex are dopplegangers, mirror images, each with a fatal flaw.

 

Marrone was an offense-minded coach who was smart enough to hire the best available talent at DC and leave them alone. The offensive unit he had, on the other hand, significantly underperformed. Keep in mind he had a younger FredEx and CJ Spiller, whose production fell off greatly from where it was under Gailey. He also had Watkins, Woods, a TE who was picked up by the Pats**, and Hogan as well as Goodwin who did show himself a deep threat when healthy. He did have some talent on the offensive side. He appeared to hold grudges and bench players whose training room regimen he disapproved after they became healthy.

 

Rex is a defense-minded coach who was smart enough to hire an OC who had shown he could get good performance out of meh QB and go to championships, give them good talent in McCoy, Karlos Williams, Woods, Watkins, Harvin, Hogan, and Clay . The defensive unit he has, on the other hand, significantly underperformed. He talked the talk about fitting his scheme to the talented players he had, but when it came down to it, he brought out a scheme that appears most ill-suited to the players talent. He didn't walk the walk. He embraces distractions that have to take away from preparation, including TV shows etc. He appears unable to hold players accountable for undiscipline play.

 

I would like to see a coach who functions as a head coach and brings in competence at both OC and DC.

 

It was sad to watch Arizona just shredding the same Eagles D that stopped us and macerating the same Eagles offense we couldn't stop last week

[PromoTheRobot]

 

If it's Polian the team is doooomed...unless Whaley retains control of making a roster. The team would have made the playoffs this year with last years D. The problem is clearly Rex.

If Polian wants to plug in his idiot son, run.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

My guess is that the Pegulas relied more on Whaley's input than Brandon's for the Rex hire, hence the hot seat for Whaley now.

 

I don't think that's a good guess.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Hopeful

[RyanC883]

If there were rumors of Whaley wanting Hue Jackson I didn't hear / read of them. What I do recall is Russ Brandon telling the new owners that "they" would know who to hire after they spoke with him.

 

My thoughts derived the way they did because of the Mike Pettine hire fresh from Rex Ryan's team to run the Bills 2013 defense. Pettine was on Rex's defensive staff as the DC from 2009-2012, and then why not bring in the master to make the defense even better. If I'm not mistaken both Whaley, and Brandon met with Pettine before the team hired him.

 

Pettine as DC is the only hope. But then Rex needs to be told he has zero control over the D and it's all Pettine, just like it was several years ago here.

If Polian wants to plug in his idiot son, run.

 

That would be such a terrible move. I wonder who Pegula is allegedly speaking with.

[GG]

I wasn't speaking of Mario specifically. Just the notion that Rex failed because he didn't have the right guys to run his magical defense.

 

I'm sure more will be written once the door hits Mario's butt, but his mutinous behavior had a huge role in the defensive collapse.

[bigK14094]

I'm not sure how I feel about this. I'm still stunned that this season has played out the way it has. I was on board with the idea of Rex, but I'm really starting to see that it's a mistake and he just hands out jobs to his buddies and he isn't flexible enough to change things to use what works.

Rex is a one trick pony.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

Pettine as DC is the only hope. But then Rex needs to be told he has zero control over the D and it's all Pettine, just like it was several years ago here.

 

That would be such a terrible move. I wonder who Pegula is allegedly speaking with.

 

You do recall that the Pettine D, while aggressive with blitzing, couldn't stop the run? Im not sure they could stop a nosebleed.

[26CornerBlitz]

 

Pettine as DC is the only hope. But then Rex needs to be told he has zero control over the D and it's all Pettine, just like it was several years ago here.

 

Rex isn't going to be here under that emasculating scenario with his former understudy Pettine calling the defense. He'd be gone before that would happen.

[DrDawkinstein]

Changes need to be made, but Im not sure I'd agree with demoting or moving away from Whaley. And at this point, I dont need many more reasons to not renew my tickets next year.

[BuffaninATL]

The whole final drive excuse is a red herring from the QB haters. They just look for ways to spin everything to their twisted view. The fact is the offense and QB position improved and exceeded our preseason hopes. What failed was the collapse of our vaunted defense.

 

agreed, and you could make the argument that the offense/QB exceeded our hopes despite some dubious game planning & playcalling from GRo

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

A disappointment? Absolutely! A disaster is taking it too far IMO.

 

I go that far. On D, taking a top-5 D to what we have now is indeed a "disaster"

[billykaykay]

 

 

I do partly agree with this. I am not big into canning a coach after the first year but this was a big mistake hiring and it is brutally obvious. Whaley I don't know. He has done some good things, he also has done some things that are fireable offenses. Drafting EJ & then pushing him on not one but 2 coaching staffs, trading up for Watkins when we could of had Beckham if we just sat tight. I don't know tough call.

The OBJ thing is BS hindsight.

[PromoTheRobot]

 

I go that far. On D, taking a top-5 D to what we have now is indeed a "disaster"

Disaster is not an inaccurate description.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

I'm sure more will be written once the door hits Mario's butt, but his mutinous behavior had a huge role in the defensive collapse.

 

Which came first, the egg or the chicken?

 

Players know when they're being asked to execute roles that don't suit their skills in ineffective schemes. Think about how Mario played under Wannstache. Would everyone prefer a guy with Mario's physical skills and football talent and Kyle Williams' lunchpail mentality and work ethic, Yes. But most everyone would take a guy with Mario's physical skills and football talent and just put him in a role that suits him in a scheme that works.

 

Getting rid of talented players then drafting to fill holes used to be looked down upon around here.

[KOKBILLS]

I know some of you folks are concerned about a house cleaning...

 

I'm not...I think it's the best thing...

 

The only thing I'm kind-of-hoping is that Whaley can stay in charge of the Scouting Department, because I do think he's a pretty decent at evaluating talent and running that side...But it's not like I'm going to lose any sleep if they blow that up as well...

 

I just don't see how it's possible for anyone to think another couple years of Rex gives us a better chance at winning...Especially if we are unable to find a Franchise QB...Which is more-than-likely...Unfortunate as it is...I don't think Rex "has it" any longer...He could not get this team to buy in, and even though he's just about the polar-opposite of Marrone personality-wise Rex could not get this roster to take the next step despite upgrades at QB, RB, OG, TE, and CB...I think it's very much a possibility that Rex's time as a legit HC in this league has come and gone...Since the beginning of the 2011 season Rex is 32-46 as a HC...There are probably a million reasons why...But it is what it is...He's not getting the job done...Period...

 

So yes...I hope we get a President Of Football Operations, and I hope the first thing he does is can Rex...

 

But maybe that's just me...

[PlayoffsPlease]

The whole final drive excuse is a red herring from the QB haters. They just look for ways to spin everything to their twisted view. The fact is the offense and QB position improved and exceeded our preseason hopes. What failed was the collapse of our vaunted defense.

Tyrod has been the best QB the Bills have had in a long time. But that is an incredibly low bar to grade a QB on. He has some serious deficiencies for a guy finishing his fifth year in the league. He has the slowest release time in the league, slower than the true rookies starting this year. It appears that the coaches only trust him with half-field read plays. These things can improve. But it is foolish to assume they will. Bills need to treat the draft as if they have no PROVEN commodity at QB.