atlbillsfan1975 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 In fairness to Wilson, he did rush for more yards than all but 14 running backs last season (he also rushed for 6 TDs), in addition to throwing for a career-best 3,475 yards with 20 TDs and a career-low 7 INTs, and that was with a pretty suspect OL. He's very, very good. He is good. But he is not who i would look to to start a franchise with. His rushing is nice but as the NFL has shown rushing for a QB is not something that can be done very long. I also factored in that if he was your starting QB that you started your franchise with you would have to pay him accordingly. Therefore your D will suffer some for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 He is good. But he is not who i would look to to start a franchise with. His rushing is nice but as the NFL has shown rushing for a QB is not something that can be done very long. I also factored in that if he was your starting QB that you started your franchise with you would have to pay him accordingly. Therefore your D will suffer some for sure. ? Not sure what you mean by that. So you are saying that you aren't necessarily picking the top 5 best but the 5 that are good but won't command top dollar? Every guy you selected is/will be a $20 million/year QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 It is clear. Clearly f@#$ing insane. This is the first documented instance where a comparison to Peyton Manning was used as a criticism. You have a list of guys like Flacco, Ryan, and Roethlisberger who failed to advance as far in the playoffs as Luck or even make it to post season play and your criticism is that Luck is a young Peyton Manning (a first ballot hall of famer) who lost in the AFC Championship game and thats a bad thing. Saying you wouldn't take Andrew Luck would be like if Connor McDavid, the only other guy I can compare Luck to in terms of sure things, came out and after three seasons he was every bit as good as advertised, was already a top 5 centre in the game but had only taken the Oilers to the conference finals, saying, "Nope, sorry, I'd take Patrick Sharp over him. He's won cups. McDavid can only take you so far. Plus, I don't like guys whose game is too focused around 'scoring' and 'skating.' Oh yeah and I'd also take Claude Giroux over him. He's not as good, he's a lot older and hasn't won a cup either." And then when enough people start questioning you about it, you magically disappear and go do the same thing in another thread. The question must be asked, are we getting crayonz'd by this guy?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I think the conclusion of this thread is that Rodgers and Luck are all but unanimous picks. The overwhelming majority have Wilson in too. Then some still like their older guys: Brady, Big Ben, Rivers, Brees. Most like at least two of the mid age guys: Ryan, Flacco, Newton and the odd one really likes the younger guys: Bridgewater and (bizarrely in my opinion) Winston and Mariota without seeing them play an NFL snap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Rodgers Luck Ryan Roethlisberger Rivers Age and ability. No thanks to R Wilson. Let's see him have to carry his team, not lend a hand. All five of those guys have been the main reason their teams have had success. Can we say the same about Wilson? Yeah, Rivers and Ryan have been money in the playoffs, haven't they? Oh, and Luck too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 ? Not sure what you mean by that. So you are saying that you aren't necessarily picking the top 5 best but the 5 that are good but won't command top dollar? Every guy you selected is/will be a $20 million/year QB. Point is i do not see Wilson as the type of QB worth spending that kind of money on. The Seahawks will never win the NFC again once Wilson signs that big deal and they can not sign the defensive guys they need. You think Flacco and the Ravens will be in the SB again? Yeah, Rivers and Ryan have been money in the playoffs, haven't they? Oh, and Luck too. Give them what Wilson has and they would have 2 SB championships, not one and one they p*ssed away at the 2 yard line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimdaigler Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Take a look at this 26-and-under list and tell me you're not impressed: Luck Stafford Wilson Newton Foles Bridgewater Carr Matt Simms luck-probably good, Wilson-good, the rest are a bunch of not yets, maybes, and matt sims Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloFan68 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Rodgers Luck Flacco Newton Stafford Ryan Verdict is still out on EJ & others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigPappy Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Rodgers Luck Wilson Big Ben Brady (vet leadership is off the charts, worth it even if he only plays 3 more years) This list except remove big ben and add t brady. Cheater or not he still goes in the top 5. Bigpappy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Other than Luck (who must be the consensus no. 1), I would put Brady at the top. His style strikes me as being good into his 40s. In fact, I would argue that in 5 years, Brady wil be better at age 42 than Rodgers and Ben R will be at 36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Other than Luck (who must be the consensus no. 1), I would put Brady at the top. His style strikes me as being good into his 40s. In fact, I would argue that in 5 years, Brady wil be better at age 42 than Rodgers and Ben R will be at 36. I hope Brady falls off a cliff like Kelly or Marino. One day, there's just no arm left to fit the ball into where it needs to go. A guy can hope! In the meantime, I hope to see him take a beating from our D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Other than Luck (who must be the consensus no. 1), I would put Brady at the top. His style strikes me as being good into his 40s. In fact, I would argue that in 5 years, Brady wil be better at age 42 than Rodgers and Ben R will be at 36. I would bet anything that Brady is not playing in five years. He's still very, very good, that's for sure. But not five years. I hope Brady falls off a cliff like Kelly or Marino. One day, there's just no arm left to fit the ball into where it needs to go. A guy can hope! In the meantime, I hope to see him take a beating from our D. It usually ends quick for these guys. Kind of a strange phenomenon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I would bet anything that Brady is not playing in five years. He's still very, very good, that's for sure. But not five years. It usually ends quick for these guys. Kind of a strange phenomenon. as a Peyton Manning fan I found it tough to watch him at the end of last year. I know they are blaming injuries but I wonder. He was a shell of himself in that last month or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Blue Dress Eli Manning Russel Wilson Colin Kaepernick EJ Manuel Blatant cheaters need not apply. Edited July 1, 2015 by reddogblitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Give them what Wilson has and they would have 2 SB championships, not one and one they p*ssed away at the 2 yard line. Really? How do you know that? And how did you know Wilson checked out of a running play on second and goal from the 2?His style strikes me as being good into his 40s. In fact, I would argue that in 5 years, Brady wil be better at age 42 than Rodgers and Ben R will be at 36.Brady did not make my top 5 due to his age, but this scenario would not surprise me one bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Yeah, Rivers and Ryan have been money in the playoffs, haven't they? Oh, and Luck too.Luck is 3-3 in the playoffs in three seasons as a pro. That's really good. Don't worry, he'll win plenty of playoff games before it's said and done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 as a Peyton Manning fan I found it tough to watch him at the end of last year. I know they are blaming injuries but I wonder. He was a shell of himself in that last month or so. I think he is done. Would not surprise me if he doesn't see out this season. However, with Peyton we know he has a tendency to mentally unravel and maybe that is what happened - the injury was on his mind and he just fell to pieces. Or maybe he never quite got over the Superbowl demolition job. There are a lot of excuses out there but I do wonder.... I think it might be the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Question, and based on your posting history I think it's a fair one: Who would you take on your roster right now, EJ Manuel or Andrew Luck? and based on yours you can be considered a troll. I provided my response, IF you can't accept that then I suggest that you should move on and stop the BS. Just because my opinion differs from yours or that you can not understand it is by no means an excuse for insults. Edited July 1, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Really? How do you know that? And how did you know Wilson checked out of a running play on second and goal from the 2? Brady did not make my top 5 due to his age, but this scenario would not surprise me one bit. The same way you and anyone who thinks Wilson is better than his stats show, I just know. Edited July 1, 2015 by atlbillsfan1975 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) and based on yours you can be considered a troll. I provided my response, IF you can't accept that then I suggest that you should move on and stop the BS. Just because my opinion differs from yours or that you can not understand it is by no means an excuse for insults. I'm not trying to insult you, I promise. I'm only trying to have a pleasant exchange. I am not trolling you. I think it's a fair question to ask. If you believe a young QB who was a first round draft pick, has only played 14 games in the league, has the size, the arm strength, the mobility and the necessary leadership qualities, would have lead the Bills to a 12-4 record last year had he not been replaced by Orton, as you have stated on this very website, I think it's fair to ask if you'd choose him in your top 5 QB's to build a team around. If I knew only those things about a QB, I would certainly take him on my team. And if you'd consider Manuel for your top 5 and you do not have Luck in your top 5, I think it's also fair to ask who you would take, Manuel or Luck. So, who would you take? See? No insults, no trolling, I'm simply asking you a question based on information you have given me. Edited July 1, 2015 by metzelaars_lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 The same way you and anyone who thinks Wilson is better than his stats show, I just know. But his stats are awesome. He does not put up the inflated, gaudy passing yards of say, a Matt Stafford, but his numbers are far more efficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 But his stats are awesome. He does not put up the inflated, gaudy passing yards of say, a Matt Stafford, but his numbers are far more efficient. Not to mention the underrated "statistic" known as Winning. Those numbers are pretty good for RW, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) I'm not trying to insult you, I promise. I'm only trying to have a pleasant exchange. I am not trolling you. I think it's a fair question to ask. If you believe a young QB who was a first round draft pick, has only played 14 games in the league, has the size, the arm strength, the mobility and the necessary leadership qualities, would have lead the Bills to a 12-4 record last year had he not been replaced by Orton, as you have stated on this very website, I think it's fair to ask if you'd choose him in your top 5 QB's to build a team around. If I knew only those things about a QB, I would certainly take him on my team. And if you'd consider Manuel for your top 5 and you do not have Luck in your top 5, I think it's also fair to ask who you would take, Manuel or Luck. So, who would you take? See? No insults, no trolling, I'm simply asking you a question based on information you have given me. you did a damn poor job then if you didn't mean to be insulting. so please stop any further inquiries are trolling - pushing for a reply when none is forthcoming --- so I have to ask why must you demand further explanation from me on who my 5 were? why must you demand any commentary on EJ? why must you troll for a reason why I would feel EJ is a top 5 QB? Edited July 1, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) But his stats are awesome. He does not put up the inflated, gaudy passing yards of say, a Matt Stafford, but his numbers are far more efficient. I am glad you think so. To me they scream ultimate game manager. His stats for the last 3 season show he is exactly what we want EJ to be. Wilson has never attempted 40 passes in a game. He has his most success when he attempts less than 30 passes. I do not buy him as a franchise passer or the guy i want leading my team at QB because i have to pay him $20mil+ a season that inhibits me from spending in other areas to compensate for his deficiencies. Seattle will be the next Baltimore. Sign your QB to a huge deal and suffer everywhere else on the field. Edited July 1, 2015 by atlbillsfan1975 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Not to mention the underrated "statistic" known as Winning. Those numbers are pretty good for RW, too. Omg!!! People need to stop this. Alex Smith has been a "winning" qb the last 3 years. Garbage Orton was a "winning" qb. Brees went 7-9. Honestly, are the Hawks any worse if they have Cam Newton (7-9)? Football is the ultimate team game. Wilson plays on the best all around team. He is a good qb and Seattle would be dumb to let him go. But man does he get overrated by some because of the great team he plays on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) you did a damn poor job then if you didn't mean to be insulting. so please stop any further inquiries are trolling - pushing for a reply when none is forthcoming --- so I have to ask why must you demand further explanation from me on who my 5 were? why must you demand any commentary on EJ? why must you troll for a reason why I would feel EJ is a top 5 QB? 1. Please stop throwing the word "troll" around so haphazardly. 2. Why in the world won't you answer the question? If you asked me who I would take between Wayne Gretzky and Jerry Korab circa 1983, I would say Wayne Gretzky. That's it. No need to send these cryptic responses leading many to believe you would actually take Manuel. And so we're on the same page, the question is, who would you take as your QB to build a franchise around? EJ Manuel or Andrew Luck? You have said nothing up to this point to lead anyone to believe that your answer should be an obvious one. You have lambasted Luck for being a perennial playoff loser and you have stated that EJ Manuel would have led the Bills to a 12-4 record last year had they stuck with him. I'm inclined to think you'd take Manuel. That's fine if that's what you think- as you said, everyone is entitled to an opinion. So who do you got?? Omg!!! People need to stop this. Alex Smith has been a "winning" qb the last 3 years. Garbage Orton was a "winning" qb. Brees went 7-9. Honestly, are the Hawks any worse if they have Cam Newton (7-9)? Football is the ultimate team game. Wilson plays on the best all around team. He is a good qb and Seattle would be dumb to let him go. But man does he get overrated by some because of the great team he plays on. I am with you for the most part but winning is also not a completely arbitrary statistic either. Brees did go 7-9 last year. Tom Brady never has- on teams with far less talent than last year's Saints team. Edited July 1, 2015 by metzelaars_lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 1. Please stop throwing the word "troll" around so haphazardly. 2. Why in the world won't you answer the question? If you asked me who I would take between Wayne Gretzky and Jerry Korab circa 1983, I would say Wayne Gretzky. That's it. No need to send these cryptic responses leading many to believe you would actually take Manuel. And so we're on the same page, the question is, who would you take as your QB to build a franchise around? EJ Manuel or Andrew Luck. You have said nothing up to this point to lead anyone to believe that your answer should be an obvious one. I am with you for the most part but winning is also not a completely arbitrary statistic either. Brees did go 7-9 last year. Tom Brady never has- on teams with far less talent than last year's Saints team. I can't look it up but has Brady ever been a team with a worse defense than NO had last year? How many good Qbs won't be really good with the #1 defense and a dominant rb? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LB3 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 How many good Qbs won't be really good with the #1 defense and a dominant rb? Don't forget to factor in the worst receiving corps in the league and a below average offensive line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) I can't look it up but has Brady ever been a team with a worse defense than NO had last year? How many good Qbs won't be really good with the #1 defense and a dominant rb? He has won Super Bowls with teams with less offensive weapons to work with, that's for sure. For the most part, I'm with you on the winning thing though. But the best QB's tend to be on good teams and make everyone around them better (who really believes that Jordy Nelson and Randall Cobb are two of the best WR's in all of football). Edited July 1, 2015 by metzelaars_lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protocal69 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) The Russell Wilson thread and some of the debates going on there got me thinking about this. If you were to start a team today and you are able to choose any QB as they sit today (in other words, saying an older guy when he was in his prime is not an answer), who would be your pick and who would be your top 5? 1. Rodgers - For me, the best in football today and has the potential to be in the best ever conversation when he's done. 2. Wilson - The best first 3 years arguably of any QB in history and already SB Champ. Avg wins for Sea 3 years prior to him = 6.33 and the avg wins 3 years with him 12. Seattle has literally doubled their win rate with him as QB. Has post season stats and record to match. 3. Luck - Already on the path as one of the next great prolific passers. Very poor playoff performance in each of his 3 years in the league. Never had a single post season with more TDs than INTs (9TDs total to 12 Ints total). 4. Big Ben - Proven winner, proven talent at QB who comes up Big living up to his name. His age of 33 keeps him from being higher on this list. 5. Ryan - Another great regular season guy but hasn't been able to get his team over the hump in the playoffs. Thats my list based on performance, age, upside, etc. Its funny to regarding Wilson that they say he is a product of the defense however in the year BEFORE Wilson got there Seattle had a top 10 defense and they was still 7-9 and somehow got into the playoffs and beat the Saints. In any other year they would have missed the playoffs. So in the 1st year Wilson came like you said they went from 7-9 with Marshawn Lynch to 11 Wins ( 4 win difference ) in his rookie season. Yes the defense helped but you cant take away what his play has done overall for the Seahawks over the course his career there. Edited July 1, 2015 by Protocal69 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) I can't look it up but has Brady ever been a team with a worse defense than NO had last year? How many good Qbs won't be really good with the #1 defense and a dominant rb? I think that the Saints defense last year was the worst ever (but I'm not positive). Edited July 1, 2015 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Don't forget to factor in the worst receiving corps in the league and a below average offensive line. Their oline looks great for Lynch. Tate signed a good free agent contract and Baldwin isn't terrible. Not a good group but is it any worse than Brady's early in his career? Again, Wilson is solid to good. Just gets way too much credit for the Seahwaks being a great team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protocal69 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) I think that the Saints defense last year was the worst ever (but I'm not positive). I am not sure about that but the BILLS 2012 defense too me was the worst ever. Here are some example from that year. We gave up at 45 points 4 times that year. 2 time that year it was back to back ( 52pts to the Pats and then 45pts to the Niners). Seattle scored 43/50pts including running a fake punt for 38 yards to the buffalo 12 yard line while up 30pts with 12:48 left in 4th quarter. We gave up 48 to Mark Sanchez, yes Mark Sanchez for crying out loud. We gave up 35 to the Titans and another 37 to the Pats. The best game we played that year on defense was to the Colts which was Andrew Luck rookie season and The season finally against the Jets. P.S. 2012 Bills Avg PPG Against 27.19 2014 Saints Avg PPG Against 26.50 Edited July 1, 2015 by Protocal69 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) I think that the Saints defense last year was the worst ever (but I'm not positive). That was two years ago when the Saints had an historically bad defense. Their oline looks great for Lynch. Tate signed a good free agent contract and Baldwin isn't terrible. Not a good group but is it any worse than Brady's early in his career? Again, Wilson is solid to good. Just gets way too much credit for the Seahwaks being a great team. And Russell Wilson is not just "solid to good." He is a top ten QB in the NFL right now by any calculation. He could very well be top five. I'm really starting to question whether or not people actually watch the guy play. His career passer rating is 98.6, which would place him second all time- behind only Aaron Rodgers- if he played enough to qualify. Add to that his running abilities and leadership qualities and he's really, really good. Only on twobillsdrive can people be critical about Russell freaking Wilson and have such baseless blind faith in EJ Manuel. Edited July 2, 2015 by metzelaars_lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LB3 Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Their oline looks great for Lynch. Tate signed a good free agent contract and Baldwin isn't terrible. Not a good group but is it any worse than Brady's early in his career? Again, Wilson is solid to good. Just gets way too much credit for the Seahwaks being a great team. The OL looks great for Lynch because Wilson is such a threat to pull and run/pass. Having to account for his threat is like an extra two blockers for Lynch. Tate is a good #2. Baldwin is decent, but having him as a #1 means that the corps is bad. Brady wasn't throwing for that much more than Wilson his first three years either, and definitely didn't have the production with his legs that Wilson does. Let's also not forget that defense is as big of a reason why Brady won those titles as Wilson's D was. I think Brady is top 3 all time. I don't think Wilson is there, but it's early and to say he's overrated is just not something I can agree with at all. That was two years ago when the Saints had an historically bad defense. And Russell Wilson is not just "solid to good." He is a top ten QB in the NFL right now by any calculation. He could very well be top five. I'm really starting to question whether or not people actually watch the guy play. His career passer rating is 98.6, which would place him second all time- behind only Aaron Rodgers- if he played enough to qualify. Add to that his running abilities and leadership qualities and he's really, really good. Only on twobillsdrive can people be critical about Russell freaking Wilson and have such baseless blind faith in EJ Manuel. This is precisely why BF4E calls you a troll. WE GET IT. You don't like EJ. You don't need to inject your belief that he isn't good into every discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 That was two years ago when the Saints had an historically bad defense.I think that it was 2012 actually but they were an atrocity last year as well. It should have cost Rob Ryan his job. They were so, so, so bad last year. I don't even remember why this topic game up but that Saints defense was as painful to watch as just about any unit I've ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I think that it was 2012 actually but they were an atrocity last year as well. It should have cost Rob Ryan his job. They were so, so, so bad last year. I don't even remember why this topic game up but that Saints defense was as painful to watch as just about any unit I've ever seen.how does Rob Ryan keep his job when they have that short window with Brees? Did they blame the personnel? Fwiw I thought Rob was a good DC when he was in Cleveland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Luck is 3-3 in the playoffs in three seasons as a pro. That's really good. Don't worry, he'll win plenty of playoff games before it's said and done. Agreed that 3-3 for his first 3 years is really good. I'm much more impressed with 6-2 and 1 ring though, Wilson's my pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 how does Rob Ryan keep his job when they have that short window with Brees? Did they blame the personnel? Fwiw I thought Rob was a good DC when he was in Cleveland.They chalked it up to injuries somewhat but brought in Dennis Allen to keep an eye on him. I thought Rob Ryan did a good job the year before but they were a disaster last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 They chalked it up to injuries somewhat but brought in Dennis Allen to keep an eye on him. I thought Rob Ryan did a good job the year before but they were a disaster last year.i didn't know they hired Allen. That's a good addition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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