Gugny Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I know this issue gets shut down every time it's brought up. However ... the Bills have a new owner now. I think this is a relevant discussion (civil discussion) that should take place. As much as domestic violence has been at the forefront of so much of the NFL news this season, I can't believe it hasn't come up. This is not a Hall of Fame discussion; it's a Wall of Fame discussion. I personally find it disgusting that his name is still on the Wall of Fame. I think it is disrespectful. I think it is irresponsible. I think it is disgraceful. This is solely about the fact that he was found liable for the deaths of two innocent people; nothing to do with him being in prison now, or committing the crimes that landed him there. He's a murderer and his name shouldn't be on that wall. I hope the Pegulas do what Ralph Wilson failed to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uticaclub Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 He's on there for what he did on the field and he was found not guilty of murder. No argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) This will get you shouted down, but I actually think it's the right thing to do. We'll hear arguments to the contrary, all of which are fair, but none of which convince me: 1. His deplorable actions took place long after his Bills career ended. True, but the Wall of Fame is a continuing honor. It's not like taking back an MVP trophy he earned at the time. 2. We can't just start pulling names down from the Wall of Fame for every kind of crime or indiscretion. True, but there's really no comparison between, say, a former player who picks up a DUI, or even a former player who engages in financial fraud or admitted PED use, etc. We have to draw the line somewhere. I say OJ shows us where. 3. What, are we going to take him out of the HOF too? That's the NFL's decision, but again, it's different. Example: I say put Pete Rose in the baseball HOF, but include some background with his plaque explaining how he sadly ended his career by gambling on baseball and besmirching the integrity of the game. The HOF allows for such context because it's an exhibit/museum. The Wall of Fame doesn't, and every time they try to collectively honor the Wall of Famers they will face the embarrassing problem of how to deal with OJ's name up there. So take it down. Not in some big ceremony or show of self righteousness. Just quietly. Edited January 4, 2015 by The Frankish Reich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr1 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 He belongs on the wall for his work in The Naked Gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 He's on there for what he did on the field and he was found not guilty of murder. No argument I see this was your 666th post. Just sayin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uticaclub Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I see this was your 666th post. Just sayin' Ouch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Ouch Yeah, I'm gonna have to watch that. I hope my 420th wasn't about marijuana or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA Grant Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Its embarrassing to have his name still up there. It doesn't matter what he accomplished when he played. He could have multiple MVPs and be solely responsible for a Super Bowl win and I'd still say pull it down. It makes the team/organization/community look like they're passively defending OJ as a person because he was a star athlete. We have plenty of other star athletes to celebrate that aren't connected to murder. For a Wall of "Fame", OJ Simpson is way more famous for being a criminal than a Buffalo Bill. In my opinion, removing his name is way, way, way overdue. Time to let it go. Take it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Pete Rose violated one of baseball's most serious and most talked about rules to players and managers. He should never ever ever ever be put into Cooperstown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted January 4, 2015 Author Share Posted January 4, 2015 It makes the team/organization/community look like they're passively defending OJ as a person because he was a star athlete. Such a great point. This has historically happened with "star athletes," beginning in high school level, across the country. It's a societal flaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Its embarrassing to have his name still up there. It doesn't matter what he accomplished when he played. He could have multiple MVPs and be solely responsible for a Super Bowl win and I'd still say pull it down. It makes the team/organization/community look like they're passively defending OJ as a person because he was a star athlete. We have plenty of other star athletes to celebrate that aren't connected to murder. For a Wall of "Fame", OJ Simpson is way more famous for being a criminal than a Buffalo Bill. In my opinion, removing his name is way, way, way overdue. Time to let it go. Take it down. This is sadly true. My wife had no idea who he played for -- she just knew him as a guy in commercials and bit roles in movies. And since 1993, as a (likely) killer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted January 4, 2015 Author Share Posted January 4, 2015 Pete Rose violated one of baseball's most serious and most talked about rules to players and managers. He should never ever ever ever be put into Cooperstown. Wrong sport. Totally irrelevant (because it's baseball and you're comparing it to a league-level hall of fame) and betting does not equal a double murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uticaclub Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 He was found not guilty. He went to trial and was found not guilty. Whether you think he did it or not, you can't punish people for being accused of crimes especially when they are found not guilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Wrong sport. Totally irrelevant (because it's baseball and you're comparing it to a league-level hall of fame) and betting does not equal a double murder. Was Pete ever found guilty? It was an alleged double murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA Grant Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Quietly taking it down during this offseason would be the best move. Obviously you don't make a big deal about it (please sit down, Brandon), but it would inevitably get noticed and reported on. And then the story becomes a very positive one: new owner Terry Pegula is doing good things in Buffalo, it's a new day, and the new-era Bills can lead the way of a football-obsessed community done right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Linen Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 It's a tough position for the Bills. His name was put up there prior to everything that transpired. He wasn't convicted so what would the Bills do "well we know he did it so we're taking his name down". I think the organization is as embarrassed by his name being up there as we are. I think the best thing to do is just leave him off any recognition of past players in the new stadium and they can come up with a PC reason to not include him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA Grant Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 He was found not guilty. He went to trial and was found not guilty. Whether you think he did it or not, you can't punish people for being accused of crimes especially when they are found not guilty. The Wall of Fame is not legal status. Nobody's taking away any of his rights. But we can stop celebrating a guy better known for murder than for athletic accomplishments from 30-40 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 It's a tough position for the Bills. His name was put up there prior to everything that transpired. He wasn't convicted so what would the Bills do "well we know he did it so we're taking his name down". I think the organization is as embarrassed by his name being up there as we are. I think the best thing to do is just leave him off any recognition of past players in the new stadium and they can come up with a PC reason to not include him. Well, the fact that he's in prison for a different violent offense makes it easy. As does the fact that he was found responsible in a civil trial for the deaths of two persons. I don't want to be all sanctimonious about this, but I think if in your place of business -- whatever it might be -- one of the former CEOs who guided the company through a profitable period was found responsible for killing two people and is currently serving a long sentence for robbery, you wouldn't think twice about renaming the "OJ Simpson Conference Room." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Wrong sport. Totally irrelevant (because it's baseball and you're comparing it to a league-level hall of fame) and betting does not equal a double murder. The Frankish Reich brought it up first, so I responded. Talk to Frankish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 The Frankish Reich brought it up first, so I responded. Talk to Frankish. True. And by the way, I'd probably keep OJ in the HOF too, but not if they refuse to discuss his post-retirement conduct. Again, I think the HOF allows for context, for thinking about what fame is, why we honor people (performance on the field? character? both?), whereas putting someone's name on a stadium wall just doesn't. It can't be seen as anything other than honoring the both the man and his achievements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proteus Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Those of you saying his name belongs on the wall are cowards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) Those of you saying his name belongs on the wall are cowards. I don't agree at all. I think people legitimately believe we don't need to rewrite history -- his name is up there to honor his achievements and contributions long before his life took an evil turn. And I agree that there's a fine line here. I don't think the Bills should start photoshopping him out of team pictures, taking his name out of the Bills record book, etc. But in this case, I think the "keep him on the Wall" viewpoint is wrong because we can't get away from the implications that we're honoring the man as he is today. But I respect the opposing view (and I'll try to convince them otherwise) Edited January 4, 2015 by The Frankish Reich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackInDaDay Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) OJ put the Bills on the post-merger AFL/NFL map... in a pro game that ran before it passed, Simpson was everything he was touted to be - which was possibly the most exciting player in the league for several seasons. the thing is.. the number of fans who are conflicted by their memory of the player and the reality of the man, dwindle each year.. and eventually, any fondness his name elicits will be buried with us. so I vote to keep it up until then.. Edited January 4, 2015 by BackInDaDay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA Grant Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) I don't agree at all. I think people legitimately believe we don't need to rewrite history -- his name is up there to honor his achievements and contributions long before his life took an evil turn. I think that's wrong because we can't get away from the implications that we're honoring the man as he is today, but I respect the opposing view (and I'll try to convince them otherwise) And it's also worth pointing out that removing the name doesn't erase the fact that it was once up there. It's such a clear decision, IMO, the only reason it hasn't been brought down already is this is an organization clearly mired in the thinking of "well it's just how we've always done things, so, even though they don't make sense, we've always done it that way, and let's just keep doing it." How about this as a rule of thumb for Wall of Fame: if its in any doubt, it really shouldn't be up. If OJ wouldn't be welcome in the stadium — and he wouldn't — he shouldn't have his name on the Wall. I'll go further and say having OJ Simpson's name on the Wall diminishes the value of the other names. To be strictly practical, removing it would be a good "quietly noble" PR move for the Pegulas. Nobody is going to be like "wow, what a terrible move!" People might respond with "how was it still up to begin with?! Good for them to take it down." Moreover, it would just be right. Edited January 4, 2015 by LA Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uticaclub Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 When the new stadium is built, he'll be left off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 This was my first Bills game: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/197109260buf.htm OJ was the only reason to watch (but for whatever reason, as a kid I thought Dennis Shaw was the man). I have great memories of that day in September, OJ running the ball, Dennis Shaw throwing (picks), the Bills losing (they were 1-13), the Rockpile in its waning years ... but still, time to move on. That OJ went away a long, long time ago. And it's also worth pointing out that removing the name doesn't erase the fact that it was once up there. It's such a clear decision, IMO, the only reason it hasn't been brought down already is this is an organization clearly mired in the thinking of "well it's just how we've always done things, so, even though they don't make sense, we've always done it that way, and let's just keep doing it." How about this as a rule of thumb for Wall of Fame: if its in any doubt, it really shouldn't be up. If OJ wouldn't be welcome in the stadium — and he wouldn't — he shouldn't have his name on the Wall. I'll go further and say having OJ Simpson's name on the Wall diminishes the value of the other names. To be strictly practical, removing it would be a good "quietly noble" PR move for the Pegulas. Nobody is going to be like "wow, what a terrible move!" People might respond with "how was it still up to begin with?! Good for them to take it down." Moreover, it would just be right. That's the perfect way to think about it. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodbuster Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) I'm really conflicted about it. I know he was found not guilty, but just seems wrong to have his name up there alongside someone like Bob Kalsu. Ugh, we can't even be proud of our the best player in our teams history. Edited January 4, 2015 by sodbuster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I'm really conflicted about it. I know he was found not guilty, but just seems wrong to have his name up there alongside someone like Bob Kalsu. Ugh, we can't even be proud of our the best player in our teams history. That's why God invented Jim Kelly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodbuster Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 That's why God invented Jim Kelly.Nothing against Jimbo, but its not even close. OJ was legendary. I guess that's a debate for another day though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uffalo Ills Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) The Wall of Fame is not legal status. Nobody's taking away any of his rights. But we can stop celebrating a guy better known for murder than for athletic accomplishments from 30-40 years ago. I have never seen him play other than on youtube, being born WAY after his career ended. I have never seen his movies either. I always knew him as a Bill first and criminal second. He (allegedly) did terrible things. But still, I find it very difficult to want him to be erased from Bills' history and legacy. His name on the wall does not condone his actions off the field, but plaes him in a symbol of the greatness of the Buffalo Bills organization on the field. Edited January 8, 2015 by Uffalo Ills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSOL Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 2003 yrds in 14 games. The guy was amazing on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 a) Until the Bills start honoring all of their "character guys", then the honor is not about character. It's about greatness on the field. b) Not Guilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 he looked guilty but wasn't convicted so he should stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloFan68 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 a) Until the Bills start honoring all of their "character guys", then the honor is not about character. It's about greatness on the field. b) Not Guilty. This. I used to love watching OJ play & met him a couple of times to get his autograph - can't say enough about what he did on the field (& some off). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah John Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) I'm of the generation that watched OJ come into the league in 1968 and just take over for a few years in the early 70s. When Rich Stadium opened in 1973, the company that had the concession contract hired a lot of us teenagers to sell pop and beer in the stands. I got a job as a pop vendor, then when I turned 18 I switched to beer, which earned a lot more in tips (the drinking age then was 18 and not 21). Some of my happiest days were fall Sundays in the stands, part of a happy crowd watching OJ dazzle. It didn't hurt that the Bills hired very attractive young women in special outfits as ushers -- does anyone else remember them? I think they were there just for the first year or two after Rich opened. I digress. OJ was part of this experience. There used to be a television show called the Superstars competition or something, and they'd have athletes and actors and celebrities competing in various events. OJ would always just dominate the competition. For about 3 years, no one could touch him on that show or in THE show. He was just in a class by himself. 2003 yards in 14 games, are you kidding. After the championship years in the mid-60s, the Bills fell apart when their core got old, and after Lou Saban and Ralph Wilson decided to part ways the first time. (Lou should be on the Wall too, along with Cookie Gilchrist, but that's another story). When the Bills got Simpson, they became relevant again. Getting Saban back didn't hurt either, of course. Possibly it was Simpson's success that led to Wilson keeping the team in Buffalo, did you even think of that? Those were the years when Wilson was making trips to Seattle to see about moving the team there, and when the Erie County legislature voted to build a domed stadium to keep the Bills in town. The Wall recognizes contributions to the team, and Simpson made huge contributions. His name should remain on the Wall. Edited January 4, 2015 by Utah John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonborn10 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 It is more important Cookie Gilchirst be added now that Ralph is dead than it is to take Simpson down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Those of you saying his name belongs on the wall are cowards. what's next....adulterers, substance abuse violators, PED's, wife beaters, child abusers, drunks, car speeders, personal conduct violators, sinners, involuntary manslaughter, convicts. complete waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA Grant Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 OJ Simpson is the Bills greatest player like the Pats won the Super Bowl: it deserves a huge asterisk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 No. To do so GIVEN THE FACTS OF THIS CASE is VERY dangerous. It goes against everything that we stand for as a free American. There is no place for this type of social engineering. A commie or fascist would judge him after he was found innocent. To take his name down would be to spit in the face of the American justice system. Justice system, as flawed as it is, one might not like the outcome, but you have to respect it. The people have spoken. I can't believe this bothers the do-gooders of the world. Well, actually I can... That's what moral do-gooders do and then we suffer from their unintended consequences. I am not asking you to look past his later in life trangsgressions, just simply separate them from what he accomplished on the field. Again, the man was found innocent. Shame on people. The moral do-gooders need to go back to civics class. This post was NOT to rile people up. It simply had to be said. Taking his name down is UN-American. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) He was found not guilty. He went to trial and was found not guilty. Whether you think he did it or not, you can't punish people for being accused of crimes especially when they are found not guilty. Sure you can. You can't take away their freedom for being found not guilty but you can remove a complete honorific. His name is a stain on Buffalo. That it's up is an embarrassment to the organization. Other fans are incredulous to see it. It's more than time. what's next....adulterers, substance abuse violators, PED's, wife beaters, child abusers, drunks, car speeders, personal conduct violators, sinners, involuntary manslaughter, convicts. complete waste of time. For now we can just stick with one of the most notorious criminals deserves no place on the wall. Or how about "one of the most notorious wife beaters who we all know is a double murderer." a) Until the Bills start honoring all of their "character guys", then the honor is not about character. It's about greatness on the field. b) Not Guilty. Hahaha. You don't have to be found guilty (of one crime BTW) to be unwrothy of being praised by a community. I hope the Pegulas do the right thing. It must pain them to see that name up there. Edited January 4, 2015 by John Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts