dave mcbride Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Makes you wonder if that is his legit opinion or one meant to generate reaction. He's the real deal, PTR. The evidence is there. The issue is the off-the-field stuff, which is of course real and worrying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 that is why the trade was possible for RG3 but not Luck, IMO Â And even then I doubt the Rams would have made the trade had they not been shackled by massive contract to Bradford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagel Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 A few years ago Joe B said that he preferred Matt Barkley to Andrew Luck as a prospect "because he has a better arm." Â Seems like a nice guy, but I don't particularly value his football acumen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAinLack. Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 I wonder if the fact that Manziel promised to change and then failed to do so will negatively affect Winston in this draft. More than any position the character piece is critical with the face of the franchise QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Further evidence that Joe B ain't making it up: http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2015jwinston.php . Read to the end. Â I wonder if the fact that Manziel promised to change and then failed to do so will negatively affect Winston in this draft. More than any position the character piece is critical with the face of the franchise QB. Perhaps, but Winston has never been criticized for laziness or unwillingness to do the work. He's been criticized for being a felon, which he may well be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 Has Winston even declared? Â Further evidence that Joe B ain't making it up: http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2015jwinston.php . Read to the end. Â Â Perhaps, but Winston has never been criticized for laziness or unwillingness to do the work. He's been criticized for being a felon, which he may well be. right - I just meant character red flags in general Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 right - I'm not disputing the kid's talent and if they had the #1 pick free and clear I could understand using it on him and hoping he matures off the field. Considering our options at that position are slim. That would be worth the risk. But trading arguably your best player at age 24 and next year's 1st rd pick?! Joe B was once a potential breath of fresh air on that station but has unfortunately fallen to contradicting himself and spending too much time praising analytics theories and making them his football bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Further evidence that Joe B ain't making it up: http://walterfootbal...015jwinston.php . Read to the end. Â Â Perhaps, but Winston has never been criticized for laziness or unwillingness to do the work. He's been criticized for being a felon, which he may well be. Â I don't think anyone is questioning Winston's ability as a QB. He's very talented. But Joe is talking about trading a known NFL talent in Dareus along with a 1st and a 2nd for an unknown NFL talent in Winston, with some serious character issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Has Winston even declared? He hasn't yet, but he's coming out. I've always been curious if he's seriously considered the MLB draft. He'd get drafted in the early rounds given his ability and excellent performance for the Noles this past season. Â I don't think anyone is questioning Winston's ability as a QB. He's very talented. But Joe is talking about trading a known NFL talent in Dareus along with a 1st and a 2nd for an unknown NFL talent in Winston, with some serious character issues. Â Good points, but there are a lot of folks here questioning his ability, even going so far as to compare him to EJ (which is ridiculous). One poster even said that there were questions about his arm strength, which is laughable if you know anything about Winston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 He hasn't yet, but he's coming out. I've always been curious if he's seriously considered the MLB draft. He'd get drafted in the early rounds given his ability and excellent performance for the Noles this past season. Â Â Â Good points, but there are a lot of folks here questioning his ability, even going so far as to compare him to EJ (which is ridiculous). One poster even said that there were questions about his arm strength, which is laughable if you know anything about Winston. Â Well to that point, those posters are wrong. The guy is talented, very talented. Its the character issues teams will be worried about. If he gets arrested or whatever that type of trade would blow up in a GM's face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 I don't think anyone is questioning Winston's ability as a QB. He's very talented. But Joe is talking about trading a known NFL talent in Dareus along with a 1st and a 2nd for an unknown NFL talent in Winston, with some serious character issues. Right. All that ... But in contrast, Joe B said that the Watkins trade was too risky. That's the contradiction being pointed out. (for clarity - not just for you ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Right. All that ... But in contrast, Joe B said that the Watkins trade was too risky. That's the contradiction being pointed out. (for clarity - not just for you ) Â Not defending Joe B's trade scenario (which won't happen anyway), but one player is a QB and one isn't. An elite QB is worth 3 of Marcel Dareus, sad to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Not defending Joe B's trade scenario (which won't happen anyway), but one player is a QB and one isn't. An elite QB is worth 3 of Marcel Dareus, sad to say. Can't argue with that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heels20X6 Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Cam Newton had a ton of question marks about his character coming out of the draft too. Now saying that, I think he's been an average QB at best and I see Winston's career having a similar trajectory. Strong arm, mobile, good, but not great. Â I.e. Not worth trading up and giving up what Joe B is saying we should trade. Dareus is already an all-pro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KGun12TD Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 So, no Buffalo Crab Legs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 Â Â Not defending Joe B's trade scenario (which won't happen anyway), but one player is a QB and one isn't. An elite QB is worth 3 of Marcel Dareus, sad to say. i agree with that and that's why if it was for a proven guy - I will throw Matt Ryan out there as an example - I could see it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Cam Newton had a ton of question marks about his character coming out of the draft too. Now saying that, I think he's been an average QB at best and I see Winston's career having a similar trajectory. Strong arm, mobile, good, but not great. Â I.e. Not worth trading up and giving up what Joe B is saying we should trade. Dareus is already an all-pro. Newton played in a very simple offense that allowed to tuck the ball and run a lot. Winston plays in a pro-style offense that depends on him throwing to spots as opposed to receivers. He's markedly more accurate than Newton too (not that Newton is wild), and he doesn't tuck and run nearly as much as Newton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) Joe B was once a potential breath of fresh air on that station but has unfortunately fallen to contradicting himself and spending too much time praising analytics theories and making them his football bible. Â I found it interesting that GR began using Sal Capaccio for their sideline reports on gameday. I thought that was Joe B.'s thing, but apparently he's been shifted toward being an "insider" who reviews All-22 film. Â Joe B. does what many "insiders" do to maintain their reputation. They make few bold predictions and provide analysis that allows them room to maneuver. Â That said, he seems like a nice enough guy, but I would think he'd be more than just analytics and tossing softballs to Bills people. Of course, consider that GR wants to maintain the radio contract and isn't going to attack their partner, who could always take the contract away. Edited December 30, 2014 by BillsVet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Not defending Joe B's trade scenario (which won't happen anyway), but one player is a QB and one isn't. An elite QB is worth 3 of Marcel Dareus, sad to say. Â Can't argue with that if so long as that QB is a proven elite QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) Further evidence that Joe B ain't making it up: http://walterfootbal...015jwinston.php . Read to the end. Â Â Perhaps, but Winston has never been criticized for laziness or unwillingness to do the work. He's been criticized for being a felon, which he may well be. Â Â I'm not sure I'd use Walter as a credible source. But I don't think people are arguing Winston isn't a talented QB.. He is. Although for "the next big thing" he played some horrendous first half ball, this year. I don't recall EJ ever making the kind of bad throws Winston made, on occasion, this year. Of course he made some very good ones, too. But recall when he was accused of throwing a 1st half for a friend. Nothing came of that, but I saw that level of play in more than one game. Interception city. Â But Walter comparing him to Luck is preposterous. Luck was a sure thing, Manningesque in that he had talent and character. There was almost no chance getting a big payday would go to his head. Who knows with Winston? Lots of talented guys don't make it in the NFL. Hell, some can't make it through college. I doubt Winston would be in the discussion had he picked the wrong college, as he would have been benched, or tossed out, due to his poor off field behavior. I have the same concerns I had with Manzeil, but at least Winston has some real talent. Edited December 30, 2014 by The Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) I'm not sure I'd use Walter as a credible source. But I don't think people are arguing Winston isn't a talented QB.. He is. Although for "the next big thing" he played some horrendous first half, this year. I don't recall EJ ever making the kind of bad throws Winston made, on occasion, this year. Of course he made some very good ones, too. Â But Walter comparing him to Luck is preposterous. Luck was a sure thing, Manningesque in that he had talent and character. There was almost no chance getting a big payday would go to his head. Who knows with Winston? Lots of talented guys don't make it in the NFL. Hell, some can't make it through college. I doubt Winston would be in the discussion had he picked the wrong college, as he would have been benched, or tossed out, due to his poor off field behavior. I have the same concerns I had with Manzeil, but at least Winston has some real talent. Dean - read that SI piece I link to earlier in the thread. Btw, I'm not advocating trading the farm for Winston. Really, I'm just reacting to the comparisons to Manuel, Newton, etc. I'm also extremely impressed by his baseball performance (I'm slightly more interested in college baseball than college football). Edited December 30, 2014 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Dean - read that SI piece I link to earlier in the thread. Btw, I'm not advocating trading the farm for Winston. Really, I'm just reacting to the comparisons to Manuel, Newton, etc. I'm also extremely impressed by his baseball performance (I'm slightly more interested in college baseball than college football). Â I will when I get back home, Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Â Â Can't argue with that if so long as that QB is a proven elite QB. You do realize that no one trades away a guaranteed star. You trade away potential stars who could just as easily fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Â Â Winston is BY FAR the best QB that will be drafted into the NFL this year (even though he's a total immature douche) but yeah totally agree with your main point "But the Sammy trade was too risky ..." LOL - That station's personalities really believe some of the crap they spew. Â When was the last great QB from FSU? Like never? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 I think Mariota is the better prospect particularly because of WInston's behavioral issues and I'm looking forward to #2 Oregon vs. #3 Florida State at 5PM New Years Day. But I wouldn't do Joe B's deal proposal for either.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) When was the last great QB from FSU? Like never? Prior to Tom Brady, who was the last great Michigan QB? Like never? Michigan was famous at producing duds at the QB position for decades. My point is that it's about the player, not the school. Â Also, to be fair, while he wasn't great Brad Johnson had a very solid NFL career: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JohnBr00.htm. Edited December 30, 2014 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAinLack. Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 wouldn't do it, a lot to lose and no guarintees!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester43 Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 first, geez it's just an opinion. Â second, i don't watch enough college football to know if i'd do this...my gut, like yours, says it's nuts. Â but, it underscores what a desperate situation we're in: we really and truly are going nowhere without a significant upgrade at QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSE Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) I will trade Joe B for Mike Schoop,then push them both over the falls  Then apologize to the Indians for throwing crap in the water.          - Edited December 30, 2014 by HOUSE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 I would not trade anything to move up to pick Winston. I would have a hard time picking him with the 50th pick in the draft. Â Given the choice between EJ and Jameis, I would prefer to continue to develop EJ (and see what is out there in FA). EJ is a great kid and teammate, works hard, and was a complete professional when the Bills went with KO. Â I do not see any of those qualities with Jameis. Also, keep in mind that in watching Jameis these past two seasons, FSU has much better players at pretty much every other position than just about every team they have played. It will be interesting to see how Jameis does this week (and against Alabama or OSU if FSU gets that far). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAinLack. Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 +2 ...bulldog in tow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 He said he would trade Marcel Dareus, next year's first and our 1st pick this year for the #1 overall pick this year, in which he would pick Jamies Winston. Â Â But the Sammy trade was too risky ... Â One is a potential franchise QB... The other is a WR who wasn't even the best in his class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) Schop never had credibility, but I have been writing down all of his ideas to improve the team. Get Cutler via trade if necessary, even if it costs a lot Fire Marrone and Whaley. Rename the franchise because we are a franchise of misery. Rebrand everything about us in order to make a new image. Absolutely love the last part. Â Then apologize to the Indians Native Americans for throwing crap in the water. can't just correct grammar, gotta be PC. Â Mostly because there are a lot of Indians at the Falls these days Edited December 30, 2014 by jboyst62 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopey Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 I would not trade anything to move up to pick Winston. I would have a hard time picking him with the 50th pick in the draft. Â Given the choice between EJ and Jameis, I would prefer to continue to develop EJ (and see what is out there in FA). EJ is a great kid and teammate, works hard, and was a complete professional when the Bills went with KO. Â I do not see any of those qualities with Jameis. Also, keep in mind that in watching Jameis these past two seasons, FSU has much better players at pretty much every other position than just about every team they have played. It will be interesting to see how Jameis does this week (and against Alabama or OSU if FSU gets that far). I'm going to guess you haven't seen much of Jameis in his two seasons because saying you would have a hard time picking him at 50 is crazy talk. I watched EJ play his whole career at FSU and Jameis. I would have taken a freshman Jameis over a graduated EJ 2 yrs ago. EJ waits till he see's you open, then throws to you. Jamies throws it where you are supposed to be ahead of time. You have to trust the play called and anticipate. Winston does that very well. EJ, not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Winston is dumb as a stump and a character risk. He might grow up, but he won't get smarter. Â Without proof it just sounds like you hate him for no reason. He is actually supposedly a very smart football player. They said he has a knack for reading defenses and seeing blitzes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Without proof it just sounds like you hate him for no reason. He is actually supposedly a very smart football player. They said he has a knack for reading defenses and seeing blitzes. I recommend reading this -- http://mmqb.si.com/2014/12/23/jameis-winston-nfl-prospect-florida-state/ . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BELLABEANER Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) He also thinks that the position of guard is irrelevant and that using a first or second round pick on one is a waste. Of course weve all seen that strategy work brilliantly for the Bills ever since Levitre left. Someone feel free to correct me if Im wrong but I think Levitre was actually the last time we used a first or second rounder to draft a guy who wound up playing guard for us. As for the trade proposal, way to risky. Winston has bust written all over him. He may grow up and turn out to be great but I wouldnt count on it. Pretty substantial decline in production as well. 16 less td's. 7 more picks. 2 yards less per attempt. To many red flags to give up so much. Edited December 30, 2014 by BELLABEANER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 91 Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 He said he would trade Marcel Dareus, next year's first and our 1st pick this year for the #1 overall pick this year, in which he would pick Jamies Winston. Â Â But the Sammy trade was too risky ... Â The problem with Joe "Bust"... is that they actually let him inside the first door of the facility at ONE so people actually take him for having some sort of credibility. He is still a hack and I really never care to talk to him. He wants to sound like an authority yet I doubt he knows anything more than what he learned on Madden. Compare Sal to Joe. .. given the same exact access to information and its not even close. The difference is experience in the field Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max997 Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) Joe B is a huge FSU fan so not surprising he would suggest such ridiculousness. Â Marcel is the most important player on the Bills and Winston is going to be a disaster to whoever drafts him Edited December 30, 2014 by Max997 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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