Kelly the Dog Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) IMO, Buffalo's gone out of their way since Flutie-Johnson to avoid QB controversies. I recognize there was sort of one when they picked Edwards with Losman on the roster in 2007, but otherwise it's been one guy and that was it. Even when Fitz was signed as a UFA in 2009 they were clear that he wasn't a threat to Edwards as the starter. Without a proven starter at the position and everyone over the years echoing the mantra of "competition" it's amazing how little there's actually been at QB for the BIlls. I hope EJ works out but if not, the cupboard's pretty bare. I think that's true and relevant here. I really, really like Whaley so far. Except one thing: How he has handled the QB position. And that is the single most important position in all of team sports. I understand logically, at times, what he seems to be doing, but it also seems to be a recipe for disaster. I am amongst the group of fans who happen to think EJ could be pretty good. I don't even know of any EJ supporters who think he is already good or that it's a given. And there shouldn't be. I think he has a chance to be good, perhaps a decent to good chance. BUT it is abundantly clear that Whaley is protecting him, and doesn't want much competition for the job, as you said. They don't want for him to be looking over his shoulder. They want to hand him the job and then sink or swim. The ONLY reason I have any faith in this at all is because Whaley is a smart guy. In essence, he is betting his GM job with the Bills and maybe his GM career in the league on EJ Manuel. Perhaps we all should have a lot more faith in EJ just for that fact alone. If you believe Whaley to be a smart guy and talent evaluator, of course, and there are a lot of reasons to believe he very much is. Just keeping Thad and Tuel hurt them badly last year even though Thad played decent. Signing Kolb was a dangerous placeholder signing that wasn't truly awful but was predictable that Kolb would be hurt and he immediately got hurt twice. I worry that because Marrone had so much success molding Nassib into a solid productive QB in college from a substandard wad of clay that he is too much in Whaley's ear, saying "Trust me, I can make these guys good." I don't trust anyone that says "Trust me." But back to your original point. The present brain trust does not want competition for EJ. Something that I never understood. If you are so fragile that you worry about looking over your shoulder, or cannot concentrate enough on doing your job and only your job, how are you possibly going to be good at quarterbacking in the NFL? I like EJ and he has the size and body type And proto type you want. But then the game starts and he just does not look the part. He too nice. Trying to be 2 perfect. Thinking two much. Just stop thinking And start slinging the ball. He is not a risk taker at All. He needs to throw he ball when the receiver Is not open so when the receiver makes his cut or break or separation the ball is there on time. What see EJ doing is waiting until the receiver Is open then throwing it. This wools be maybe ok In college football or the CFL but not in the NFL He's got the arm and the tools. Is his QB brain That's the Problem. Tuel has the Brain and looks the part. And you will soon see that he has the Above average arm to be the starter This is what I see. If EJ does not get his act Together. Tuel will end up being the starter Later this year. I know EJ is a Number one pick but that does not Mean you have a lock on the starting Job Leonard Cohen!! Landon's father!! Edited August 5, 2014 by Kelly the Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 point blank: anyone that watches this team 14 years into this trainwreck is a fan, by anyones definition. sitting through 2 or 3 seasons of this would be bad enough, but a decade and a half? sorry, but it's not up to you to hand out fan licenses--people (fans) are allowed to not like personnel decisions this far into us being this bad. fans are allowed to not like the quarterback who led us to nothing last year and has looked shaky this season. fans are allowed to question the hiring of a coach who never did much in the big east and hasnt done much in the pros. fans are allowed to question why we don't resign big name free agents. fans are allowed to predict that the bills will go 4-12 this year and a new owner will clean house. fans are allowed to ask for tuel to start. fans are allowed to buy billboards to fire marrone. when you watch those old bills games, or hear stories from people who were at those games (51-3, the comeback, etc.) you know how wild the rich was. those same fans are equally as passionate about why this team is bad now, as they were happy they were so good back then. those same fans that drive to canton to cheer the great jim kelly throwing a pass to the great andre reed while the rest of the bills greats look on are allowed to say that the not-so-great ej should be benched along with the rest of his not-so-great team mates. no one, not a single person, would pretend to be a fan of this garbage. the ones that are the most fed up are the ones who know how good it can be. the true fans want the bills to be great again, not 9-7/wildcard good, but 13-3, hosting the conference championship great. we know how bad ej is. we know he's not jim kelly. The problem is not having an opinion, in any way, shape, or form. The problem some folks have is when you state opinions as fact. like "we all know how bad EJ is". Actually, EJ had a pretty decent season for a rookie--the league-wide comparisons of rookie QBs in years past have been made repeatedly by many 3rd parties, so we're not really speculating here. Additionally, we don't "know" anything about him, since he's only played 10 games. You may suspect, believe, suppose, etc. To say you "know" is presumptuous at best at this point. The other problem some of us have is when folks use straw men to make their point; vis-a-vis "he's looked inaccurate all summer". That's not really true by anyone's measure. We've all seen reports that he's been inconsistent, and had you used that word in your post, I don't' think anyone would've argued. He's had moments where he's been inaccurate, and he's had times where he's been quite sharp. If you want to advocate for Tuel getting time with the ones, that's fine. I'm adamantly against it as I don't think his performance against other team's 2nd and 3rd stringers legitimizes him as a starting option, and I want our starter to get as many reps with the starting unit as humanly possible. I'm not by any means sold on EJ, and I think that anyone that is is probably working too hard to convince themselves. I like EJ, and I do think he'll put it together this year, but I leave room for the possibility that he won't. If he doesn't, count me among those convinced that the answer is not on our current roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 great write up wayne. now, trying to buck the trend by being optimistic and still realistic: ej is probably not going to the pro bowl this season. but the model that whaley has been trying to build around is similar to the steelers in their superbowl years. they brought in a large, mostly game manager qb and relied on a stout d. i would like to see ej brought along as a game manager. there are early signs that his mechanics are a bit better. he has wr's that can make plays for him. my biggest concerns are with the o-line at this point, since that will rush him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Ok, lets interject some pictures into this discussion, seeing as people seem to be going off just memory and I'm not sure how much you can really pay attention to in the 3-5 seconds a play takes. Continued onto next post.... Continued... Please feel free to discuss further... Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zow2 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Wishing EJ all the best. Don't need to see fans get excited about how good his passes are that are "almost" caught. That's silly talk. Either he is in command of the offense and completing passes downfield or he's not. In the HOF game he didn't. Hopefully this week he will. I just look at the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Nope. It's the irrational way you and yours go about deciding what a given player is and isn't. Let's face it, we both don't know. At least we don't iterate "Bills suck and they always will" over and over until it makes everyone wanna vomit. Is this what you "real fans" would do at a game? Sounds like a great positive winning atmosphere you and yours create there. Two-face much? EDIT: I don't mean it personal, I have nothing on you PastaJoe. We're all guilty of it to a degree, of course. But what I've seen so far at TBD during this training camp is pretty ludicrous. I guess it's a yin yang thing. So, sorry for that. Well put overall, however I'll add that not all posters are equally as clueless about what they see. Some have actually played a bit and/ or coached a bit. That's not to say they still can't be wrong of course Usually when the emotion and prior team history of it all is taken out of the analysis it's a lot more accurate. Then there's some things that are just retarded like expecting your QB to "scan the field" when it's a 3 step drop and his 1st read is wide opn and the pass needs to be on time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I'm not going to read through 13 pages of this board to see if this has been brought up, but Ill say it right here: Tuel deserves a shot with the starting unit. He passes the "eye test" for me... he looks good, commands the huddle, throws a crisp pass, and takes some risks. I'd love to see him throwing to sammy and williams, handing to spiller, and getting reps behind our o line. at some point this training camp, marrone has to make that move, he would not be doing his diligence if he did not. bills fans can continue to bury their head in the sand all the like, but this team is a train wreck at qb, and tuel may be our only hope. ej 4-6 as a starter last year, and has looked inaccurate all summer. i know i need to be patient, but i fail to see why qb is the only position on the roster that isn't open to competition. If by passing the "eye test" you mean he has two eyes, then I agree. Otherwise, I do not share your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
You herd it hear last Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 point blank: anyone that watches this team 14 years into this trainwreck is a fan, by anyones definition. sitting through 2 or 3 seasons of this would be bad enough, but a decade and a half? sorry, but it's not up to you to hand out fan licenses--people (fans) are allowed to not like personnel decisions this far into us being this bad. fans are allowed to not like the quarterback who led us to nothing last year and has looked shaky this season. fans are allowed to question the hiring of a coach who never did much in the big east and hasnt done much in the pros. fans are allowed to question why we don't resign big name free agents. fans are allowed to predict that the bills will go 4-12 this year and a new owner will clean house. fans are allowed to ask for tuel to start. fans are allowed to buy billboards to fire marrone. when you watch those old bills games, or hear stories from people who were at those games (51-3, the comeback, etc.) you know how wild the rich was. those same fans are equally as passionate about why this team is bad now, as they were happy they were so good back then. those same fans that drive to canton to cheer the great jim kelly throwing a pass to the great andre reed while the rest of the bills greats look on are allowed to say that the not-so-great ej should be benched along with the rest of his not-so-great team mates. no one, not a single person, would pretend to be a fan of this garbage. the ones that are the most fed up are the ones who know how good it can be. the true fans want the bills to be great again, not 9-7/wildcard good, but 13-3, hosting the conference championship great. we know how bad ej is. we know he's not jim kelly. Man, I getcha. We're all a little harsh sometimes. But please tell me, when an "EJ hater" goes to the game, at what point does he turn that pessimism and criticism off and just cheer for his team? An hour before KO?, 5 minutes? Never? Methinks it's a more of a personality issue and not one of "fandom" as you say. Wishing EJ all the best. Don't need to see fans get excited about how good his passes are that are "almost" caught. That's silly talk. Either he is in command of the offense and completing passes downfield or he's not. In the HOF game he didn't. Hopefully this week he will. I just look at the facts. But the facts also whisper: It was against the 2s and 3s or it was against a vanilla D or yeah, but his O line is out or it was only PS game 1 or it was on astroturf or rookie receiver ran the wrong route or his completion % was hampered by drops or ... you get the idea in the regular season, I'd buy your "looking at the facts", but too many variables in PS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountDorkula Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Wishing EJ all the best. Don't need to see fans get excited about how good his passes are that are "almost" caught. That's silly talk. Either he is in command of the offense and completing passes downfield or he's not. In the HOF game he didn't. Hopefully this week he will. I just look at the facts. I dont even know where to start with this. So If Ej is on target on 15 throws and 10 are drops (They were almost caught) Does that mean he does not have command of the offense? Man, I getcha. We're all a little harsh sometimes. But please tell me, when an "EJ hater" goes to the game, at what point does he turn that pessimism and criticism off and just cheer for his team? An hour before KO?, 5 minutes? Never? Methinks it's a more of a personality issue and not one of "fandom" as you say. But the facts also whisper: It was against the 2s and 3s or it was against a vanilla D or yeah, but his O line is out or it was only PS game 1 or it was on astroturf or rookie receiver ran the wrong route or his completion % was hampered by drops or ... you get the idea in the regular season, I'd buy your "looking at the facts", but too many variables in PS Except they are not facts, at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heitz Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Wishing EJ all the best. Don't need to see fans get excited about how good his passes are that are "almost" caught. That's silly talk. Either he is in command of the offense and completing passes downfield or he's not. In the HOF game he didn't. Hopefully this week he will. I just look at the facts. But, but, but, doesn't someone have to *catch* the ball? I mean that shot to Williams in the EZ was RIGHT where it had to be - hard to fault EJ on that one. Heck its hard to fault Williams, the defender grabbed his arm, it didn't get called, we didn't score a TD in a pre-season game. Such is life. Doesn't mean EJ wasn't in command of the offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 point blank: anyone that watches this team 14 years into this trainwreck is a fan, by anyones definition. sitting through 2 or 3 seasons of this would be bad enough, but a decade and a half? sorry, but it's not up to you to hand out fan licenses--people (fans) are allowed to not like personnel decisions this far into us being this bad. fans are allowed to not like the quarterback who led us to nothing last year and has looked shaky this season. fans are allowed to question the hiring of a coach who never did much in the big east and hasnt done much in the pros. fans are allowed to question why we don't resign big name free agents. fans are allowed to predict that the bills will go 4-12 this year and a new owner will clean house. fans are allowed to ask for tuel to start. fans are allowed to buy billboards to fire marrone. when you watch those old bills games, or hear stories from people who were at those games (51-3, the comeback, etc.) you know how wild the rich was. those same fans are equally as passionate about why this team is bad now, as they were happy they were so good back then. those same fans that drive to canton to cheer the great jim kelly throwing a pass to the great andre reed while the rest of the bills greats look on are allowed to say that the not-so-great ej should be benched along with the rest of his not-so-great team mates. no one, not a single person, would pretend to be a fan of this garbage. the ones that are the most fed up are the ones who know how good it can be. the true fans want the bills to be great again, not 9-7/wildcard good, but 13-3, hosting the conference championship great. we know how bad ej is. we know he's not jim kelly. Every once in a while some "fan" will make a statement like this...... You might technically be a fan if you do nothing but B word B word B word every year reminding everyone of the 15 years of futility and ignore every positive about the team along the way.....but your a miserable one Wishing EJ all the best. Don't need to see fans get excited about how good his passes are that are "almost" caught. That's silly talk. Either he is in command of the offense and completing passes downfield or he's not. In the HOF game he didn't. Hopefully this week he will. I just look at the facts. What you say is true....but there are two people in that equation....qb and wr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 But back to your original point. The present brain trust does not want competition for EJ. Something that I never understood. If you are so fragile that you worry about looking over your shoulder, or cannot concentrate enough on doing your job and only your job, how are you possibly going to be good at quarterbacking in the NFL? Your points should be repeated very often and emphasized that you don't have to be anti-EJ, or proclaim him to be a total bust, to question how OBD has handled the QB position over the last two years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountDorkula Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 But, but, but, doesn't someone have to *catch* the ball? I mean that shot to Williams in the EZ was RIGHT where it had to be - hard to fault EJ on that one. Heck its hard to fault Williams, the defender grabbed his arm, it didn't get called, we didn't score a TD in a pre-season game. Such is life. Doesn't mean EJ wasn't in command of the offense. No not such is life. You iz IDIOT!!! Ej is the worst person to ever Football. EVER!!! We have seen enough of EJ to realize that he is never going to win at football. The sample size and evidence is too huge to say otherwise. Tuel on the other hand. WOW. He is probably the best person since ever! The way he throws the ball while cooking food for the homeless is just nothing short of extraordinary. We have not seen given him a fair chance. Did you see his command of the field during the game. His throws are like he has a lazer sight for an arm with a trigger and just fires the ball. Its jaw dropping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Your points should be repeated very often and emphasized that you don't have to be anti-EJ, or proclaim him to be a total bust, to question how OBD has handled the QB position over the last two years. Except that I dont know that it is a fair statement...... What QB should we have brought in to provide that competition? Kevin Kolb was a veteran QB who when healthy showed that he could run a offense....at one time he was HIGHLY thought of. They brought him in and they drafted Manuel. Kolb gets hurt and that was the way it went. This year? Who do we bring in that would have been a better option then continuing on with EJ' Manuel's development? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 ... Tuel on the other hand. WOW. He is probably the best person since ever! The way he throws the ball while cooking food for the homeless is just nothing short of extraordinary. We have not seen given him a fair chance. Did you see his command of the field during the game. His throws are like he has a lazer sight for an arm with a trigger and just fires the ball. Its jaw dropping. Let's slow down now.... no one is claiming Tuel has the chroise! He might be improving and lookin ok, but chroisen he is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Let's slow down now.... no one is claiming Tuel has the chroise! He might be improving and lookin ok, but chroisen he is not. He's got a point. Tuel took the bull by the horns. He took command of the offense and of the game. This QB competition is far from over and with good reason. EJ Manuel has had plenty of time to show the coaching staff - his teammates - that he is "THE GUY." He hasn't done that yet. Tuel seems to be showing everyone he's the guy whenever he gets the chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 He's got a point. Tuel took the bull by the horns. He took command of the offense and of the game. This QB competition is far from over and with good reason. EJ Manuel has had plenty of time to show the coaching staff - his teammates - that he is "THE GUY." He hasn't done that yet. Tuel seems to be showing everyone he's the guy whenever he gets the chance. He hasn't shown me anything that makes me believe he is or could be a starting NFL QB. And his record in college and in the pros is about 4-30 now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Except that I dont know that it is a fair statement...... What QB should we have brought in to provide that competition? Kevin Kolb was a veteran QB who when healthy showed that he could run a offense....at one time he was HIGHLY thought of. They brought him in and they drafted Manuel. Kolb gets hurt and that was the way it went. This year? Who do we bring in that would have been a better option then continuing on with EJ' Manuel's development? This has been debated to death, but to recap. 2013 Bills knew they were drafting a QB early in 2013. The 2013 QB class was very weak, so it was very important to have a half way decent QB on the roster Bills bungled the Fitzpatrick restructuring By the time they moved on to the position, only Kolb was available, with many more question marks than answers. Bills cut Tarvaris before camp even rolled on, which bit them in the arse one month later 2014 Knowing the limitations of the 4 QBs on the roster at the end of 2013, the team elects to go with the same crew into 2014. Zero effort to bring in another vet or use a mid level draft pick on a developmental QB in case EJ strikes out And here we are, again, with zero room for error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 He hasn't shown me anything that makes me believe he is or could be a starting NFL QB. And his record in college and in the pros is about 4-30 now. It think people would be hard pressed to find a NFL qb with a worse record than Tuel. Not all on him but his record is beyond awful. This has been debated to death, but to recap. 2013 Bills knew they were drafting a QB early in 2013. The 2013 QB class was very weak, so it was very important to have a half way decent QB on the roster Bills bungled the Fitzpatrick restructuring By the time they moved on to the position, only Kolb was available, with many more question marks than answers. Bills cut Tarvaris before camp even rolled on, which bit them in the arse one month later 2014 Knowing the limitations of the 4 QBs on the roster at the end of 2013, the team elects to go with the same crew into 2014. Zero effort to bring in another vet or use a mid level draft pick on a developmental QB in case EJ strikes out And here we are, again, with zero room for error. I agree 100% that Fitz would have been the perfect mentor/ backup. But he wasn't coming back to be a backup. He won't have been happy and it could have been very messy. Jackson was struggling to pick up the offense. Fun fact, Lewis has a better qb rating than Jackson. We were down to our 4th string qb last year. No team has a good plan for that. It's hard enough to find a starting qb let alone a good backup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 This has been debated to death, but to recap. 2013 Bills knew they were drafting a QB early in 2013. The 2013 QB class was very weak, so it was very important to have a half way decent QB on the roster Bills bungled the Fitzpatrick restructuring By the time they moved on to the position, only Kolb was available, with many more question marks than answers. Bills cut Tarvaris before camp even rolled on, which bit them in the arse one month later 2014 Knowing the limitations of the 4 QBs on the roster at the end of 2013, the team elects to go with the same crew into 2014. Zero effort to bring in another vet or use a mid level draft pick on a developmental QB in case EJ strikes out And here we are, again, with zero room for error. Yes, the above is a very good summary of the legitimate gripes with the way this group has handled the QB situation. No disagreement here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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