NoSaint Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I know there were several threads on it this offseason - and not just as a new orleans resident, but being interested in the arguments on a broad level I was definitely following this one.... it was ruled today that Jimmy Graham is in fact a tight end for the tag. I think it is the right call, but i know several here disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 it's the right call. the wrong call is having such a big gap in pay between WR and TE. but at the end of the day the guy is a TE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Does anyone think he could be converted to LB and replace Kiko? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Does anyone think he could be converted to LB and replace Kiko? Only if Sammy performed a laying on of hands and imbued him with the power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 it's the right call. the wrong call is having such a big gap in pay between WR and TE. but at the end of the day the guy is a TE the way you fix that is getting guys like jimmy counted in the TE tag. Suddenly the top 5 will be guys like Jimmy, Gronk, Vernon Davis etc... and they will simply be on fair market deals that they agreed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Only if Sammy performed a laying on of hands and imbued him with the power. My hamster Sammy has paws, not hands and he is ornery. He won't do it. Are you talking about Sammy Watkins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 He should refuse to report. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackFergy Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I know there were several threads on it this offseason - and not just as a new orleans resident, but being interested in the arguments on a broad level I was definitely following this one.... it was ruled today that Jimmy Graham is in fact a tight end for the tag. I think it is the right call, but i know several here disagree. Right call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 My hamster Sammy has paws, not hands and he is ornery. He won't do it. Are you talking about Sammy Watkins? Yes, yes. Of course. But I should have known. From what I've read here Sammy Watkins can do just about anything - except perhaps to heal Kiko. But ya never should say, "never" I always say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machine gun kelly Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 The way the gap closes will close somewhat over time as what is the most sought after talent everyone wants the last four to five years, an athletic basketball type person with speed to play TE. As more of them come up for their second contract like the Denver TE, the recent deals for Gronk and Hernandez, Graham soon to be contract, will eventually drive up the avg tag price. FWIW, I agree on the decision. If the guy wanted a WR tag, he should have lobbied Peyton 4 years ago. These are not the old school TE with a hand in the dirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) I know there were several threads on it this offseason - and not just as a new orleans resident, but being interested in the arguments on a broad level I was definitely following this one.... it was ruled today that Jimmy Graham is in fact a tight end for the tag. I think it is the right call, but i know several here disagree. It is the right call. I actually think the best solution would have been a hybrid. 67% of the WR tag and 33% of the TE tag. Ironically, I think that number is almost exactly what he is going to get as part of his long term deal (in the $10.5M range). Edited July 2, 2014 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machine gun kelly Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 KJ - I think your right in the ballpark. This morning I heard from one of the past GM's thinking they'll resolve by camp just like the Bree's dealmwithnprobably $20 mil guaranteed and they reported thinking around 9.5-10 mil / yr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Not so fast my friend sez Jordan Cameron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 3, 2014 Author Share Posted July 3, 2014 Not so fast my friend sez Jordan Cameron. I mentioned "the jimmy graham" listing himself as a tight end on social media pretty early in the offseason. Can't believe he didnt atleast delete that line back in January. Seemed obvious it made an "I'm not a tight end" argument an uphill battle when you are actively and publicly declaring yourself one #commonsense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Totally predicable ruling by the arbitrator. Even Graham isn't the least bit surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I heard an interesting take on the radio. The premise was that franchise tags will get murkier and murkier and positions become this varied. There are blocking te and pass catching tes which are of different value to teams but not the tag. There are coverage olbs and pass rushing olbs that are of different value to teams but not the tag. Same with rt and lt, all of the different db positions etc... I believe it was Schlereth on espn radio talking about it and his solution was to have different tags for the specialties. It might not solve every problem but it would certainly help in this case. Right now it is effecting the pass catching tes but as the pendulum swings it will be the blocking ones that are eventually left out in the cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 3, 2014 Author Share Posted July 3, 2014 (edited) I heard an interesting take on the radio. The premise was that franchise tags will get murkier and murkier and positions become this varied. There are blocking te and pass catching tes which are of different value to teams but not the tag. There are coverage olbs and pass rushing olbs that are of different value to teams but not the tag. Same with rt and lt, all of the different db positions etc... I believe it was Schlereth on espn radio talking about it and his solution was to have different tags for the specialties. It might not solve every problem but it would certainly help in this case. Right now it is effecting the pass catching tes but as the pendulum swings it will be the blocking ones that are eventually left out in the cold. while i get the point, the real issue here is that he wants to be paid more than the top pass catching tight ends. the top pass catching tight ends in the league do not get paid WR money. The tag is made up of pass catchers like davis, gronk, in years past gonzales.... if i recall last years top 5 paid tight ends had 3 that were split wide more than 50% of the time. while there are some issues at play with not being able to tag a center without paying him LT money, or an in line traditional TE without paying him dynamic receiver money - really, if you think you should be the highest paid at your position, you will always be upset by the tag. Edited July 3, 2014 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 the way you fix that is getting guys like jimmy counted in the TE tag. Suddenly the top 5 will be guys like Jimmy, Gronk, Vernon Davis etc... and they will simply be on fair market deals that they agreed to. Sort of. Except NO can franchise him using the current TE contracts as the basis and pay him well below is market value. I realize that this will slowly go up as the franchise tags get more expensive but it'll be well behind the actual current market value for TEs and won't do Jimmy Graham any good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Sort of. Except NO can franchise him using the current TE contracts as the basis and pay him well below is market value. I realize that this will slowly go up as the franchise tags get more expensive but it'll be well behind the actual current market value for TEs and won't do Jimmy Graham any good. I think that what he is saying is that the long term contract that Graham is about to get (they are saying $10M a yearish) and Vernon Davis' new contract coming will spike the tag number. If you substantially inflate the value of 2 contracts the average value of the top 5 will jump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 He should refuse to report. Period. That's certainly his prerogative. Not sure what that would accomplish for him, but he's free not to report. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kellyto83TD Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Good he IS A TE. Just because they have become more athletic at the position, doesn't change the position. he doesn't want to report fine, fine his ass to the maximum level and let his ass sit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 I think that what he is saying is that the long term contract that Graham is about to get (they are saying $10M a yearish) and Vernon Davis' new contract coming will spike the tag number. If you substantially inflate the value of 2 contracts the average value of the top 5 will jump. Are you sure that they're going to give them big long term deals when they can franchise them and keep them for significantly less? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manther Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 the way you fix that is getting guys like jimmy counted in the TE tag. Suddenly the top 5 will be guys like Jimmy, Gronk, Vernon Davis etc... and they will simply be on fair market deals that they agreed to. Agreed and agreed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 (edited) Are you sure that they're going to give them big long term deals when they can franchise them and keep them for significantly less? That has always been the plan. Graham has a multi-year deal at $9.5M per on the table. I am going to guess that he gets a little more than that out of them. I am thinking something like 4-5 years at $10M per. The reason that he wanted the WR tag wasn't necessarily to play under it but for leverage in his negotiation. He could have always threatened to play for $12.3M if their long term offer was $9.5. Now that he has the $7M tag he is less likely to do so. Edited July 5, 2014 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artmalibu Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 He should sign the offer and show up to camp, but refuse to line up in the slot or outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRQ_BillsFan Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Which leads to if they don't sign him does he pull a Bird and sit out until the last minute. That no negotiations after an early date and then for all of next year is dumb. Is it even still the same in the new CBA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryCletus Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 He should sign the offer and show up to camp, but refuse to line up in the slot or outside. That sounds like a way to show gratitude for being able to play in the NFL... Millionaires fighting over more millions... I'm sure that by refusing to line up in certain formations, he would find a huge contract... Oh wait- probably just get labeled as a pissy pants cry baby- which is exactly what he would be by doing so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 He should sign the offer and show up to camp, but refuse to line up in the slot or outside. That wasn't my first thought .But funny to consider. When Brees calls the audible and Graham wont shift. just glares at Brees Ha ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NDBUFFCUSEFAN Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 That sounds like a way to show gratitude for being able to play in the NFL... Millionaires fighting over more millions... I'm sure that by refusing to line up in certain formations, he would find a huge contract... Oh wait- probably just get labeled as a pissy pants cry baby- which is exactly what he would be by doing so... Why do people take the side of billionaire owners over the millionaire players? The players are the ones giving their bodies up for our enjoyment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryCletus Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Why do people take the side of billionaire owners over the millionaire players? The players are the ones giving their bodies up for our enjoyment. I wasn't taking the side of either... I am saying that these men are playing a game for millions of dollars... Enjoy it... I also was trying to point out how foolish of a notion it was that someone suggested he not line up in the slot or split out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Why do people take the side of billionaire owners over the millionaire players? The players are the ones giving their bodies up for our enjoyment. Thats an interesting thought..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 5, 2014 Author Share Posted July 5, 2014 (edited) I think that what he is saying is that the long term contract that Graham is about to get (they are saying $10M a yearish) and Vernon Davis' new contract coming will spike the tag number. If you substantially inflate the value of 2 contracts the average value of the top 5 will jump. Very much that. And pairing that sentiment with the top 5 all being jimmy graham style tight ends. Simply being the best of the 5 doesn't make it a broken system - it was designed to be fluid and adjust as the league values different positions in different manners. The top guy at any spot will be underpaid by the tag by definition of what the tag is. Why do people take the side of billionaire owners over the millionaire players? The players are the ones giving their bodies up for our enjoyment. Has nothing to do with siding. Tom bensons dishing out money to the cap every year. Why do we care if he gives jimmy 10 and a LB 2 or jimmy 9 and another LB 3? Are you sure that they're going to give them big long term deals when they can franchise them and keep them for significantly less? Ask the same question for the top 2-3 guys at any position. The average of the top 5 for only 1 year is always financially better for the team as long as the player is willing to show up and work. Edited July 5, 2014 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NDBUFFCUSEFAN Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Graham has every right to fight for every last cent that he can get, he has to work under the constraints of the cap and collective bargaining agreement and his only leverage is not playing/holding out. He should be paid according to where he lines up, if he is a TE 30% of the time then his tag number should be 70% of WR top five and 30% of TE top five. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 5, 2014 Author Share Posted July 5, 2014 (edited) Graham has every right to fight for every last cent that he can get, he has to work under the constraints of the cap and collective bargaining agreement and his only leverage is not playing/holding out. He should be paid according to where he lines up, if he is a TE 30% of the time then his tag number should be 70% of WR top five and 30% of TE top five. 3 of the top 5 tight ends lineup outside over 50% of the time (I'd have to double check if that was 2012 or 2013). All of the top 5 line up outside considerably. Why shouldn't those be his comparable contracts? Edited July 5, 2014 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryCletus Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Graham has every right to fight for every last cent that he can get, he has to work under the constraints of the cap and collective bargaining agreement and his only leverage is not playing/holding out. He should be paid according to where he lines up, if he is a TE 30% of the time then his tag number should be 70% of WR top five and 30% of TE top five. That opens the door for some crazy crap... Pass catching RB's, etc... Don't they loop all offensive linemen together for tag purposes?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NDBUFFCUSEFAN Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 That opens the door for some crazy crap... Pass catching RB's, etc...Don't they loop all offensive linemen together for tag purposes?? They lump all OL so they should lump all pass catchers as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 6, 2014 Author Share Posted July 6, 2014 (edited) They lump all OL so they should lump all pass catchers as well. What you'd essentially be creating is a situation where tight ends would see the tag as often as guards or centers. Currently we have pass catching tight ends setting the scale for fellow pass catching tight ends. Do you think graham has more in common with megatron and mike Wallace than gronk and Vernon Davis? How does yours better the situation? Edited July 6, 2014 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NDBUFFCUSEFAN Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Graham, VD, Gronk have more in common with top WR than their fellow TEs. If they were lumped together the elite TEs would get tagged and paid appropriately. Franchise tags should only be used for elite talent and pay them somewhat market value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 6, 2014 Author Share Posted July 6, 2014 (edited) Graham, VD, Gronk have more in common with top WR than their fellow TEs. If they were lumped together the elite TEs would get tagged and paid appropriately. Franchise tags should only be used for elite talent and pay them somewhat market value. That's how it works now. Graham's franchise tag is the average of the top pass catching tightends - guys like gronk and Davis. It's the top 5 paid at his position. So he is getting exactly what you are advocating but I'm not sure you realize that the nfl pays those guys considerably less than wide receivers. There are no blocking specialists in his tag calculation. Edited July 6, 2014 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NDBUFFCUSEFAN Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Just by looking at the low amount of the TE franchise tag it would seem that elite TEs are underrepresented. If you were ranking pass catchers, WR and TE, where would Graham rank? Maybe I'm over valuing his worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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