Bills coaches want to move on from training staff, FO dysfunction

[PromoTheRobot]

Cleveland is openly recruiting coaches after hiring Pettine....San Fran is ready to let their Super Bowl reaching coach walk over money...the Dolphins are firing coaches because of bullying...Yep, the Bills are the worst of them all.

 

PTR

[Rubes]

Cleveland is openly recruiting coaches after hiring Pettine....San Fran is ready to let their Super Bowl reaching coach walk over money...the Dolphins are firing coaches because of bullying...Yep, the Bills are the worst of them all.

 

PTR

 

Did the Harbaugh thing happen after Pettine was hired, or before? I thought it was before, but I haven't been paying close attention.

[BillnutinHouston]

I heard them touch on it on Monday or Tuesday... they breezed over it and said 1) they didn't think fans cared what went on behind the scenes and only cared about what happened on the field, 2) they didn't think it was really "news", and 3)they couldn't think of enough Sabres analogies to make it a worthwhile part of their show.

 

OK, I added that last part myself.

Well played Yolo.

 

With regard to GR's coverage or lack thereof, they could not be more wrong about their audience. We feast on every morsel of info about every last nook and cranny of the Bills organization. And clearly this "story" cries out for clarification from the Bills org. For Schopp and the Bulldog to decline to discuss it, or for Howard Simon to not ask Brandon about this when he's on the air, would be a disservice to the fans. It's got 20+ pages here and has made the national press via the Yahoo Sports story - it's far more interesting than the last Sabres' loss.

[YoloinOhio]

I fully believe the stories about Littman/Overdorf interfering with football operations. This is hardly the first time these kinds of rumors have come out, and it just makes too much sense. I don't think they interfere 100% of the time, but I do think that 1 or both of them sometimes act as a shadow GM, and both of them definitely rank higher in the organization than Whaley or Marrone.

 

What I don't know is exactly where Russ Brandon stands in all this. There are a wide variety of opinions in this thread, ranging from "Brandon is 100% with Whaley/Marrone" to "Brandon is 100% a lifer, even though he's not as old as the others." Even among the former contingent, there's a wide variety -- a few seem convinced that he's going to make major changes soon, more think that he has no power to change this situation, and probably the most don't claim to know. I.e., "this is a test of Russ Brandon's power." For me, I don't claim to know either Brandon's allegiance or his power within the organization. (If we *did* see major changes, that would pretty much prove that he's against the lifers and has full control of the team, but if we don't, it doesn't tell us anything.)

 

What I tend to think, but am not confident of, is that Brandon is probably somewhere in the middle. He was pretty directly responsible for Whaley getting his current job, and though he claimed that he wasn't the one who hired Marrone, those two have a Syracuse connection that was pointed out at the time of Marrone's hiring. He has shown some tendencies towards newer-type thinking and strategies, and it's hard for me to believe he's 100% in lockstep with the lifers. Having said that, he worked his way up right through the system, paid his dues to Ralph, and has never been one to bite the hand that feeds him or really challenge the old ways of doing things. He's more of a "gradual change through our establish systems" than a "tear down and rebuild" kind of guy.

 

But what's he going to do about this? Or can he do anything about this? I wouldn't put it past the Bills and Brandon to claim that he has 100% control of team operations, and that Littman & Overdorf report to him, when in fact all 3 report to Ralph (or no one), and Brandon's control is limited to things the public can see. Even if the Bills' company line is accurate, there's still limits on Brandon's power. My company's CEO couldn't just up and fire our CFO without the board's approval. In this case, Ralph is the board, and I think it's pretty safe to assume that 1.) Brandon probably won't ask Ralph for approval to fire Littman or Overdorf, and 2.) Ralph wouldn't give that approval even if asked. But if Brandon *does* think that the lifers are overreaching, there are other ways to handle things than by firing them. If they truly do report to him, he should be able to rein them in somewhat -- keep their titles the same, but make it clear to them that certain duties are strictly confined to the GM's office. If that happened, we'd never hear about it (obviously), but we could see subtle effects -- small changes in the type of quotes we see from coach/GM, for example.

This is what I am hoping for - compromise. It isn't an - omg, fire everyone - scenario. As I said, I know these things are going on in most if not every team and I know for a fact of one perennial playoff team in which the GM does NOT have final say over contracts because he doesn't have enough knowledge/experience managing to the salary cap and the team budget. Significant input, yes. Complete authority over how the players contracts are structured? No. Many newer GMs have risen to that post by being excellent talent evaluators, managers and personnel gurus. That doesn't mean they can control a team's finances unilaterally. So Brandon is likely unhappy that this is being played out in the media as it sheds a negative light on his organization, even if it is just locally. But I don't think it is something that can't be managed. We also don't know all sides of the trainer issue. It may not be as simple as firing the training staff but rather compromise on how things are communicated and mandate changes in method that they can choose to accept or not (and thus leave), as I assume they report to Marrone.

 

Cleveland is openly recruiting coaches after hiring Pettine....San Fran is ready to let their Super Bowl reaching coach walk over money...the Dolphins are firing coaches because of bullying...Yep, the Bills are the worst of them all.

 

PTR

Don't forget the epic House of Cards disfunction of the Redskins in 2013 or the under-achieving Cowboys (the owner can't fire the gm because it is him). Edited February 26, 2014 by YoloinOhio

[YoloinOhio]

Did the Harbaugh thing happen after Pettine was hired, or before? I thought it was before, but I haven't been paying close attention.

I think it was before. Harbaugh was their "mystery candidate" and presumably if the trade has been pulled off, Banner and Lombardi would still be there. BTW the SF FO is a complete mess, and it is more than just the $ with Harbaugh.

[Beerball]

It wasn't any kind of argument. Just a question.

Just like there is a succession plan for DC there is one for the training staff. Every NFL team has a staff, some will have assistants ready for the next step. Same goes for NCAA. I don't believe the guy from Miami would be in the mix. Look towards the second in charge in the NFL or a top college guy.

[TXBILLSFAN]

This is what I am hoping for - compromise. It isn't an - omg, fire everyone - scenario. As I said, I know these things are going on in most if not every team and I know for a fact of one perennial playoff team in which the GM does NOT have final say over contracts because he doesn't have enough knowledge/experience managing to the salary cap and the team budget. Significant input, yes. Complete authority over how the players contracts are structured? No. Many newer GMs have risen to that post by being excellent talent evaluators, managers and personnel gurus. That doesn't mean they can control a team's finances unilaterally. So Brandon is likely unhappy that this is being played out in the media as it sheds a negative light on his organization, even if it is just locally. But I don't think it is something that can't be managed. We also don't know all sides of the trainer issue. It may not be as simple as firing the training staff but rather compromise on how things are communicated and mandate changes in method that they can choose to accept or not (and thus leave), as I assume they report to Marrone.

 

Don't forget the epic House of Cards disfunction of the Redskins in 2013 or the under-achieving Cowboys (the owner can't fire the gm because it is him).

To me, it's simple. Brandon and Littman need to huddle and set a budget. It all starts from that point and Brandon has the final say but needs "sign off" from his CFO and they disagree it would get raised to Ralph. Once that is done, the CFO's job is rather pedestrian when it comes to spending, stay at or below budget. As for Dorf, his role is to work with Whaley to help execute the personnel vision within the budget and be the expert at how to optimize contracts. He is execution of player strategy, NOT player strategy. Player strategy is between Whaley and Marrone, with Whaley having final say. This is not that complicated. If either Littman or Dorf is doing more than what I list, it create DYSFUNCTION.

[YoloinOhio]

Meanwhile, amidst the turmoil we get this hard-hitting investigative report from BB.com:

Gilmore turns to yoga

 

 

http://blogs.buffalo...-turns-to-yoga/

Edited February 26, 2014 by YoloinOhio

[ThurmasThoman]

I don't mean to be a conspiracy theorist, or to pick up the flag for the other side just for the sake of flag waving... but I think another point needs to be brought up, and I'm sure it's a point that most will write off or just outright disagree with, (even more so because it's buried on page 22), but none the less:

 

The NFL is a multi, multi billion dollar organization, with remarkably little oversight. It is run by a man who is elected (and paid) by the owners of the 32 franchises that make up this organization. Essentially 33 men charged with steering a ship that rakes in more money than most countries--anually!

 

Sports hold a hallowed place in America, so daring to argue that things "aren't on the up and up" is not a popular opinion, a welcome discussion, or a tolerated view point. But I would say this: how many multi-billion dollar corporations are free from corruption?

 

What does this mean, practically? And what, exactly, am I getting at? We say things like "the Bills are 25 million under the cap, signing Byrd should be a no-brainer", and we view that statement, that position, purely from a sports perspective. And why not? We're Bills fans! We should want our team to resign it's best player. And hell, maybe when it's all said and done, they will resign him. But maybe, just maybe, there's more going on than meets the eye. Because at the end of the day, Ralph Wilson is an executive in a multi-billion dollar organization... so like it or not, he makes decisions that reverberate deeper than signing a free agent to win the Super Bowl.

 

I will leave you to make up your own conspiracy theories as to where the money goes, and who controls it. But I would caution you to separate your "fandom" from your business sense, and your common sense. These are massive organizations, and someone needs to massage the books. You might not like it, or think it sexy, but these men that have been running the Bills for all these decades have done one thing: keep an extremely succesful, profitable, and enjoyable business in Buffalo, New York, as opposed to Toronto, Los Angeles, London, or any other world class city.

 

Do I want the Bills to win? Yes. But that doesn't mean I trust Marrone and Whaley to make the decisions that result in the Bills staying a part of the 32 executives that make up the NFL. And you shouldn't either.

[KOKBILLS]

Meanwhile, amidst the turmoil we get this hard-hitting investigative report from BB.com:

Gilmore turns to yoga

 

 

http://blogs.buffalo...-turns-to-yoga/

 

All Bills fans should follow Gilmore's lead and do Yoga...

 

It's a major stress reliever...

[Coach Tuesday]

I don't mean to be a conspiracy theorist, or to pick up the flag for the other side just for the sake of flag waving... but I think another point needs to be brought up, and I'm sure it's a point that most will write off or just outright disagree with, (even more so because it's buried on page 22), but none the less:

 

The NFL is a multi, multi billion dollar organization, with remarkably little oversight. It is run by a man who is elected (and paid) by the owners of the 32 franchises that make up this organization. Essentially 33 men charged with steering a ship that rakes in more money than most countries--anually!

 

Sports hold a hallowed place in America, so daring to argue that things "aren't on the up and up" is not a popular opinion, a welcome discussion, or a tolerated view point. But I would say this: how many multi-billion dollar corporations are free from corruption?

 

What does this mean, practically? And what, exactly, am I getting at? We say things like "the Bills are 25 million under the cap, signing Byrd should be a no-brainer", and we view that statement, that position, purely from a sports perspective. And why not? We're Bills fans! We should want our team to resign it's best player. And hell, maybe when it's all said and done, they will resign him. But maybe, just maybe, there's more going on than meets the eye. Because at the end of the day, Ralph Wilson is an executive in a multi-billion dollar organization... so like it or not, he makes decisions that reverberate deeper than signing a free agent to win the Super Bowl.

 

I will leave you to make up your own conspiracy theories as to where the money goes, and who controls it. But I would caution you to separate your "fandom" from your business sense, and your common sense. These are massive organizations, and someone needs to massage the books. You might not like it, or think it sexy, but these men that have been running the Bills for all these decades have done one thing: keep an extremely succesful, profitable, and enjoyable business in Buffalo, New York, as opposed to Toronto, Los Angeles, London, or any other world class city.

 

Do I want the Bills to win? Yes. But that doesn't mean I trust Marrone and Whaley to make the decisions that result in the Bills staying a part of the 32 executives that make up the NFL. And you shouldn't either.

 

You had me until "enjoyable."

[BillnutinHouston]

 

To me, it's simple. Brandon and Littman need to huddle and set a budget. It all starts from that point and Brandon has the final say but needs "sign off" from his CFO and they disagree it would get raised to Ralph. Once that is done, the CFO's job is rather pedestrian when it comes to spending, stay at or below budget. As for Dorf, his role is to work with Whaley to help execute the personnel vision within the budget and be the expert at how to optimize contracts. He is execution of player strategy, NOT player strategy. Player strategy is between Whaley and Marrone, with Whaley having final say. This is not that complicated. If either Littman or Dorf is doing more than what I list, it create DYSFUNCTION.

You lost me at "would get raised to Ralph". I don't see any scenario where Mr. Wilson makes decisions about running the team.

[TXBILLSFAN]

You lost me at "would get raised to Ralph". I don't see any scenario where Mr. Wilson makes decisions about running the team.

I'm not suggesting that SHOULD be the way, but it appears the consensus on these boards is that Wilson still has oversight or Littman doesn't really report to Brandon --- if that's the case and there was a difference of opinion between Brandon (CEO) and Littman (CFO) it would have to be resolved or arbitrated by Wilson. My original understanding of Brandon's comments from last January was that he had final decision rights and ultimate power to run team and it was absolute -- if that truly is the case than Wilson would have NO INVOLVEMENT on any decision and Brandon word would be final on all matters related to the team, like he was the owner -- and BTW, that was how Brandon described his new power in the news conference --- again, in that case, Littman would bring a budget recommendation to Brandon for his approval and Wilson would play no role. I think that's a great question for the WGR boys to ask Brandon. Bring up his words and ask questions like "Do you have the authority to hire/fire anyone in organization without Wilson's approval ?" . . . "Do you set and approve budget or do you need to get approval from Wilson" etc. etc. ---

[BADOLBILZ]

Cleveland is openly recruiting coaches after hiring Pettine....San Fran is ready to let their Super Bowl reaching coach walk over money...the Dolphins are firing coaches because of bullying...Yep, the Bills are the worst of them all.

 

PTR

 

 

If you consider the making the playoffs the minimum achievement for a successful season...........which it is pretty much universally agreed to be........then yes they are hands-down the worst of them all.

Edited February 27, 2014 by BADOLBEELZ

[TheFunPolice]

which is fair enough - i think many didnt take into account that littman might also be above him on the food chain of ralphs personal finances, even if russ is declared top of the bills totem pole.

 

Exactly. I mean, Ralph (or whoever is running his finances for him) is looking out for what will be a good $700+ million estate. This is big time $$ and big business we're talking about here.

 

What happens when Russ wants to do something that Ralph's money men (or Ralph himself) don't want to do? I think we know the answer, because there is really only one answer that makes sense.

[GG]

If you consider the making the playoffs the minimum achievement for a successful season...........which it is pretty much universally agreed to be........then yes they are hands-down the worst of them all.

 

Don't get him started. He thinks that Bills being third worst is a psychological win in not being the worst.

 

As for the story, jw has been conspicuously silent on this one. I wonder what he's got brewing in his stein?

 

I think it's ridiculous how Kevin Massare is supporting Jeffrey Littmann because he knows the family. When you offer that sort of protection for anyone, there's a problem.

 

Like the saying goes: "one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch"

 

http://forgedinbuffa...house-of-cards/

 

That was a horrendously pathetic defense.

 

As an aside, now we know who BuddyNixon is.

Edited February 27, 2014 by GG

[sodbuster]

 

 

Don't get him started. He thinks that Bills being third worst is a psychological win in not being the worst.

 

As for the story, jw has been conspicuously silent on this one. I wonder what he's got brewing in his stein?

 

 

 

That was a horrendously pathetic defense.

 

As an aside, now we know who BuddyNixon is.

wait... So Kevin Massare IS Buddy Nixon?

[bbb]

Well played Yolo.

 

With regard to GR's coverage or lack thereof, they could not be more wrong about their audience. We feast on every morsel of info about every last nook and cranny of the Bills organization. And clearly this "story" cries out for clarification from the Bills org. For Schopp and the Bulldog to decline to discuss it, or for Howard Simon to not ask Brandon about this when he's on the air, would be a disservice to the fans. It's got 20+ pages here and has made the national press via the Yahoo Sports story - it's far more interesting than the last Sabres' loss.

 

As for GR and Jeremy not thinking this is interesting (when they think that trade deadline crap is), either they are idiots or they think the audience (and maybe they're right on that - not sure) - this is the most important thing about the Bills and sports in this town, other than the Bills actually staying here.

 

You can't talk about Byrd without knowing who is calling the shots and why. This underpins everything.

 

You may have added that last part...but you hit the nail squarely on the head...

 

I mean...I like the Sabres too...but good grief...

 

Fans don't care about what goes on behind the scenes? Bills fans? Seriously? They have to be kidding with that...The more rabid the fan base the more concern with what is going on from the Owner down...And if nothing else this is a pretty rabid fan base...They know better than to make a dumb statement like that...They have fielded several calls about when the analytics department was going to be up and running, yet they don't think Bills fans would care about a potentially HUGE story like this?

 

That just seems strange to me...If anything make your calls and come out with all the info gathered, even if it amounts to nothing...Just do your due diligence...Get Warrow or another news agency on the line to see if they've heard anything like this...It's a potentially big story...Even if the story is that it's completely false and Graham made up the whole thing...I mean...The story said they wanted to fire the trainer that has been there forever on a team that has had (at times) massive injury problems...That's a decent size story right there...Who knows...Maybe I'm wrong...

 

Then again...It's a week before the hockey trade deadline so I would hate for them to take away from the collective 7-8 hours per day of that thrilling conversation...Should the Sabres trade Miller for less than a 2nd round pick? The anxiety of the hockey trade deadline is keeping me up at night...

 

Holy crap - I hate GR during hockey trade deadline time. The conversations are just so inane.........They talk about this guy and a pick for those two guys, etc. Callers call in with the same crap............And, then what finally happens is inevitably something they never even mentioned.

[May Day 10]

its a breath of fresh air before they talk about quarterbacks that the Bills wont draft and who they know nothing about for 2-3 months

[GG]

 

As for GR and Jeremy not thinking this is interesting (when they think that trade deadline crap is), either they are idiots or they think the audience (and maybe they're right on that - not sure) - this is the most important thing about the Bills and sports in this town, other than the Bills actually staying here.

 

You can't talk about Byrd without knowing who is calling the shots and why. This underpins everything.

 

This pretty much sums it up. The one constant in Bills' history is the battle between the guys in Detroit & Buffalo. Now for the first time in a long time, current OBD residents are pushing back at Detroit, as opposed to slinging ex post facto darts. I applaud Whaley for standing up to his job's responsibilities. If WGR doesn't think this is a real story, then they are a joke of a sports station.